PDA

View Full Version : Wizard prohibited schools question



PrGo
2008-12-19, 07:08 AM
I'm making a Transmuter/Sorcerer gestalt character and I was wondering if I choose Necromancy and Evocation as my wizard prohibited schools, will I be able to cast those spells as a sorcerer?

I believe I can, but just to make sure I'm asking here cuz I hate nothing more than playing a character and that little voice in the back of my mind keeps telling me "you may be cheating with that" and stuff :smalltongue:

Thanks in advance.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-12-19, 07:13 AM
Yes, you can cast spells which are banned from the wizard side as a sorcerer, though I'm not sure you can use scrolls or wands of those spells...

And I wonder if building a Wizard//Beguiler (PHBII) and banning illusion and enchantment might better suit you. More HP, more skills, SAD... Of course, if you like/have already made your wizard//sorc, gestalt double casters get powerful enough, so don't mind me.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-19, 07:23 AM
I'd rule that you could use magic items too, because the second class of the gestalt is an arcane caster. You wouldn't if were a fighter, as an example.

The only exception, an item linked directry to wizard (i.e., a necromancy based item with the power "a wizard cast with it at +1 caster level: you could use the device but not the +1).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-12-19, 07:36 AM
Not that there's anything wrong with that particular ruling, but I'm wondering whether it's stated in RAW so that PrGo doesn't need to rely on his DM to rule in the same way.

Starsinger
2008-12-19, 07:46 AM
I'd rule that you couldn't at all, if only because I find it to be pretty contemptible. If you're going to ban a school, the last thing you should get to do is get away with it for nothing.

On the other hand, it is similar to taking Cloistered Cleric on one side and a full BAB/HD class on the other, which I'd also find a bit contemptible. RAW doesn't say it one way or another, it doesn't even mention multiclass wizards.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-12-19, 07:50 AM
Oh, it's Gestalt. You're supposed to be subverting the limitations of a single class.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-19, 07:50 AM
I based my assuption on a FAQ about multiclass Shugenja / Wu Jen. Water Shugenja banning Fire, sage answered that Shugenja fire spells are banned, but Wu Jen one aren't (and makes sense, unless for flavour, becasue are different class and different sources of power).

Even if Sstoopidtallkid is right about FAQs...

Starsinger
2008-12-19, 07:55 AM
I based my assuption on a FAQ about multiclass Shugenja / Wu Jen. Water Shugenja banning Fire, sage answered that Shugenja fire spells are banned, but Wu Jen one aren't (and makes sense, unless for flavour, becasue are different class and different sources of power).

Even if Sstoopidtalkkid is right about FAQs...

I dunno that's slightly different.

vegetalss4
2008-12-19, 07:57 AM
I'd rule that you couldn't at all, if only because I find it to be pretty contemptible. If you're going to ban a school, the last thing you should get to do is get away with it for nothing.



actually he isn't giving up nothing. he is giving up the ability to cast spells from the banned schools with his Wizards spell slots, also he is giving up his ability to scribe those spells in his spell book, and he is also giving up his ability to activate magic items as a wizard for those schools.
in other words "he gives up exactly the same as any wizard which specializes normally does, it just don't affects him as hard as normal as his sorcerer levels covers up most of the disadvantage.

BobVosh
2008-12-19, 08:00 AM
Not that there's anything wrong with that particular ruling, but I'm wondering whether it's stated in RAW so that PrGo doesn't need to rely on his DM to rule in the same way.

RAW on gestalt is very low. It sorta counts as one class, or another. However...

He would be allowed to according to raw. Sorcerers can choose spells/umd (not the skill) from the whole wizard/sorc list. It doesn't care or check for the specialization skill. This is half the point of the ultimate magus class.

I would like to say Wizard//Beguiler +1 for the record. SAD is great, better HD + BAB is additional cake. And wizards love cake.

jcsw
2008-12-19, 09:27 AM
Not exactly RAW, but complete arcane mentions a wizard dipping sorc to be able to use spell completion and etc items. Near the back, around page ~150ish

kalt
2008-12-19, 10:05 AM
Hmm this sounds like a complete DM ruling to me. I'd tend to lean towards the side of no, but it is gestalt and the idea is to make up for shortcomings. I'd just tend to think it is a little on the cheese side.

Talya
2008-12-19, 10:06 AM
I would like to say Wizard//Beguiler +1 for the record. SAD is great, better HD + BAB is additional cake. And wizards love cake.

I agree, although Beguiler's are on the same crappy BAB table.

Wizard//Beguiler. Wizard bans Enchantment and Illusion. (Because beguiler, of course, pretty much gets all the enchantments and illusions they want.) Int Synergy, too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-19, 10:19 AM
I have to agree, Beguiler is a much better choice than Sorcerer.

On the original question, it's like if a Wizard specialized and then took levels in Sorcerer. He should be perfectly capable of casting spells from the prohibited schools. By RAW, though, it says:
Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she canít even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.
Class Features

A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes.That seems to indicate that you couldn't, which is beyond dumb, IMHO. WotC just didn't think anyone would multiclass. Ever. :smallfurious:

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 10:32 AM
I have to agree, Beguiler is a much better choice than Sorcerer.

On the original question, it's like if a Wizard specialized and then took levels in Sorcerer. He should be perfectly capable of casting spells from the prohibited schools. By RAW, though, it says:That seems to indicate that you couldn't, which is beyond dumb, IMHO. WotC just didn't think anyone would multiclass. Ever. :smallfurious:

The FAQ supports this.


If a specialist wizard gains levels in a different spellcasting class, does her choice of forbidden spells affect her spell choice for the new class?

No. Though the School Specialization sidebar (PH 57) is not explicit, the forbidden schools pertain only to spells gained from the wizard class.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-19, 10:47 AM
So wait.. if I took 3 levels of Paladin, and 2 levels of Ranger, then I committed an evil act, I'd lose all my Ranger class features in addition to the Paladin ones because Paladin special restrictions carry over to my multiclass class? That's a stupid rule.. hmm.. how can I abuse a rule like that...?

Anyone know of classes with interesting restrictions on them you could combine for wierd results?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 10:54 AM
So wait.. if I took 3 levels of Paladin, and 2 levels of Ranger, then I committed an evil act, I'd lose all my Ranger class features in addition to the Paladin ones because Paladin special restrictions carry over to my multiclass class?

What? Where did you get that idea? Most (if not all) class limitations specifically state that they only apply to the features gained from the granting class. Wizards and banned schools are an exception, but again, that's been cleared up in the FAQ.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-19, 10:54 AM
I think we are confsing things here. One thing is allow spells prohibited thanks to a multiclassing/gestalt, one thing is things like these.

Telonius
2008-12-19, 11:09 AM
To explain it by fluff ... the guy has a natural talent for chucking fireballs. He just never sat down to study how he can do it.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-19, 11:31 AM
What? Where did you get that idea? Most (if not all) class limitations specifically state that they only apply to the features gained from the granting class. Wizards and banned schools are an exception, but again, that's been cleared up in the FAQ.

If you read the second multiclass rule entry Sstoopidtallkid posted, it would seem to imply that special restrictions of one class apply to all multiclass classes, per RAW. Paladins have a special restriction: they lose their class features under certain conditions. Therefore, the restriction would apply to all classes they take. I don't agree that that's RAI, and I'm aghast it could legitimately be seen as RAW, that's all.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 11:36 AM
If you read the second multiclass rule entry Sstoopidtallkid posted, it would seem to imply that special restrictions of one class apply to all multiclass classes, per RAW. Paladins have a special restriction: they lose their class features under certain conditions. Therefore, the restriction would apply to all classes they take. I don't agree that that's RAI, and I'm aghast it could legitimately be seen as RAW, that's all.

What that passage is intended to mean is that if you were to pick up two classes that carry codes of conduct (say, a Paladin/Monk or a Paladin/Knight), you would be beholden to both of their codes of conduct.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-19, 01:05 PM
I'm not understanding? Do you mean that if a Paladin/Knight acts dishonorably but not in an evil manner (for example, lying to his liege lord about someone being dead when they were instead spared) he falls as a Paladin and as a Knight? :smallconfused:

I think the problem is I don't know to what part of the question you were referring to when you said "the FAQ supports this." Sstoopidtallkid mentioned both sides of the question in your quote. It does say:


Class Features

A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes. (Exception: A character who acquires the barbarian class does not become illiterate.)

Then again, that could be just a grammatical issue. But it sounds like from my reading that special restriction of a class, like school restrictions, losing class features, and honor codes apply to all your classes, not just the classes that applies the restriction. I'm not saying it should be that way, I'm saying that that's how I'm reading the RAW.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 01:12 PM
I'm not understanding? Do you mean that if a Paladin/Knight acts dishonorably but not in an evil manner (for example, lying to his liege lord about someone being dead when they were instead spared) he falls as a Paladin and as a Knight? :smallconfused:

I think the problem is I don't know to what part of the question you were referring to when you said "the FAQ supports this." Sstoopidtallkid mentioned both sides of the question in your quote. It does say:



Then again, that could be just a grammatical issue. But it sounds like from my reading that special restriction of a class, like school restrictions, losing class features, and honor codes apply to all your classes, not just the classes that applies the restriction. I'm not saying it should be that way, I'm saying that that's how I'm reading the RAW.

...and, frankly, you're reading it wrong. What that passage means is that multiple codes of conduct all have to be followed. If you violate the paladin code, you lose your paladin features still--as stated in the paladin code. Its intention is that it doesn't mean that since you went Paladin 5/Knight 1, you only follow the Knight code: you still have to follow both.

Gaiwecoor
2008-12-19, 01:16 PM
I think the problem is I don't know to what part of the question you were referring to when you said "the FAQ supports this." Sstoopidtallkid mentioned both sides of the question in your quote.

I think Fax was referring to the FAQ supporting the ability to cast from a prohibited school as a sorcerer. I also think there's a sidebar in C. Arcane that actually suggests this tactic. It said something to the effect of "Specialize as a wizard, then take a level of Sorcerer so you can still use the wands and scrolls." I don't remember just where, and my books are downstairs, so ... :smallwink:

Edit: Silly me, thinking I'd be able to respond to something before Fax. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 01:29 PM
I think Fax was referring to the FAQ supporting the ability to cast from a prohibited school as a sorcerer.

Yup. Hell, the SRD reads this way too:

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she canít even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-19, 01:40 PM
Tokiko Mima, a Paladin/Ranger has the same Paladin code of conduct as a single-classed Paladin. And the multiclassed character faces the same consequences as the single-classed character -- the loss of all Paladin spells and special abilities. This is explicitly stated in the "Ex-Paladins" section of the Paladin class description.

That the restriction on specialist Wizards only removes spells from prohibited schools from the specialist's Wizard spell list is not explicitly stated in the RAW. The section on Wizard specialization instead describes specialists as being completely cut off from their banned schools of magic. Evidently, this was an error.

The "Ex-______s" sections of class descriptions thankfully do not contain similar errors.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-19, 03:02 PM
...and, frankly, you're reading it wrong. What that passage means is that multiple codes of conduct all have to be followed. If you violate the paladin code, you lose your paladin features still--as stated in the paladin code. Its intention is that it doesn't mean that since you went Paladin 5/Knight 1, you only follow the Knight code: you still have to follow both.

I never said you'd not follow both. In the example I gave, I mentioned both Codes of Honor being combined and suffering penalties when either is violated. The point I'm trying to make is the SRD implies that you suffer penalties for *all* classes you take, i.e. does that mean the penalties from Wizards apply to Sorcerer? Of course the penalties for being a specialist Wizard apply to your Wizard levels, but you can't just dismiss that they might also apply to other levels, since you just stated Codes from both classes must both be followed.

You'll note that Barbarians have to be specially exempted from this, or otherwise anyone who multiclassed to Barbarian would become illiterate. So why doesn't someone with a special restriction on spell schools also face those restrictions when they multiclass?


Yup. Hell, the SRD reads this way too:

Right, if you assume that wizard refers to the class, not the character. Because the character you're referring to is a multiclass wizard/sorcerer and this issue is framed in the context of a multiclass character, this section is not that helpful. Obviously, a wizard can't cast from a prohibited wizard school. The question is whether a wizard taking sorcerer levels would be able to choose spells from a prohibited school when the multiclass rules imply that they suffer penalties from all classes in their multiclass class.

Again, I'm not saying that I like these rules or think that they way it was written is great. The multiclass rules in D&D as written in the SRD are oftentimes confusing and nonsensical. They lead to things like a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 gestalt having a perfect BAB. What I'm saying is this is yet another thing in the SRD that has to be completely houseruled in order to make sense. The wording currently suggests the opposite of your position, a position which I completely agree with you makes a great deal more sense mechanically.


Tokiko Mima, a Paladin/Ranger has the same Paladin code of conduct as a single-classed Paladin. And the multiclassed character faces the same consequences as the single-classed character -- the loss of all Paladin spells and special abilities. This is explicitly stated in the "Ex-Paladins" section of the Paladin class description.

That's true. Paladin was probably a bad example, because it's rules state the particular abilities lost and is not as sweeping as wizard school restrictions. Sorry! :smallsmile:


That the restriction on specialist Wizards only removes spells from prohibited schools from the specialist's Wizard spell list is not explicitly stated in the RAW. The section on Wizard specialization instead describes specialists as being completely cut off from their banned schools of magic. Evidently, this was an error.

The "Ex-______s" sections of class descriptions thankfully do not contain similar errors.

I'm in complete agreement with this. The RAW doesn't make sense here.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-19, 03:14 PM
It would be just like dipping 1 level of Sorc to be able to use items from banned colleges.

In effect, you're not using them as a Wizard that has them as a prohibited school, you're using them as a Sorcerer.

You're basically looking at mashing two characters together. One is a Wizard, who cannot use Enchantment or Necromancy spells. The other is a Sorcerer, who does not have that particular restriction. You may not scribe any Necromancy or Enchantment spells into your Wizard's Spellbook, nor may you memorise them as Wizard spells. However, nothing keeps you from learning them as a Spell Known from the Sorcerer list, nor does it prohibit your from using any magic items as a sorcerer, regardless of how banned it may be for the other side.

Remember, the wording of Gestalt is "use whichever is more beneficial to the character". Since it is more beneficial to be able to use enchantment/necromancy items as a Sorcerer, you get it.

However, going Sorc on the other side just to be able to use items from your two banned schools is... horribly nerfing your power as a Gestalt character.

In effect, you've got twice the casting you did before... but not any more actions to cast them with. So at the end of the day, you've got half of your spells you were never able to cast because combat got done before you could get around to casting them.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 03:38 PM
Right, if you assume that wizard refers to the class, not the character. Because the character you're referring to is a multiclass wizard/sorcerer and this issue is framed in the context of a multiclass character, this section is not that helpful. Obviously, a wizard can't cast from a prohibited wizard school. The question is whether a wizard taking sorcerer levels would be able to choose spells from a prohibited school when the multiclass rules imply that they suffer penalties from all classes in their multiclass class.

Again, I'm not saying that I like these rules or think that they way it was written is great. The multiclass rules in D&D as written in the SRD are oftentimes confusing and nonsensical. They lead to things like a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 gestalt having a perfect BAB. What I'm saying is this is yet another thing in the SRD that has to be completely houseruled in order to make sense. The wording currently suggests the opposite of your position, a position which I completely agree with you makes a great deal more sense mechanically.

...considering the text is in the wizard class description, I'd say that's a safe assumption. I'd also like to note that usually when referring to anything that isn't based on a class feature and is instead supposed to focus on a character, it's generally referred to as "the character".

I will again direct you to the FAQ quote I posted earlier. You're arguing a point that's already been invalidated.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-19, 07:03 PM
Oh, c'mon, Fax, a "wizard" is a character with one level or more in the Wizard class. Your class doesn't cast spells from scrolls or wands, you do. Your class is what allows you to do that, but it's an aspect of a character, not an actor.

They just plain phrased things contrary to their intent, assuming that the FAQ gives the original intent.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-19, 07:10 PM
Oh, c'mon, Fax, a "wizard" is a character with one level or more in the Wizard class. Your class doesn't cast spells from scrolls or wands, you do. Your class is what allows you to do that, but it's an aspect of a character, not an actor.

Correct. But the wizard class is what carries the spell restrictions--those restrictions do not carry over to other classes. If that were the case, a Cleric/Diviner who banned Conjuration would not be able to cast healing spells as he'd banned the Conjuration school, despite the fact that those spells come from an entirely different source.

The same is true for the sorceror: despite the fact that they are arcane spells, they are still sorceror spells, not wizard spells, and as such a Diviner who banned Conjuration/Sorceror would be able to cast Conjuration spells as a sorceror.

ericgrau
2008-12-19, 08:24 PM
This should keep it simple (and follows the FAQ rulings, etc.): Any spells from prohibited schools are effectively no longer on your class' spell list. They might as well be cleric spells, 'cuz you can't even handle the basics of them. Otherwise they are not especially forbidden. If you gain levels in another class, you can gain access accordingly.

That said, I do think it is a cheesy trick to overcome this limitation with a gestalt, though a minor trick. Dunno if your DM will let it fly, but it's technically allowable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-20, 03:40 AM
This should keep it simple (and follows the FAQ rulings, etc.): Any spells from prohibited schools are effectively no longer on your class' spell list. They might as well be cleric spells, 'cuz you can't even handle the basics of them. Otherwise they are not especially forbidden. If you gain levels in another class, you can gain access accordingly.

That said, I do think it is a cheesy trick to overcome this limitation with a gestalt, though a minor trick. Dunno if your DM will let it fly, but it's technically allowable.Gestalt. A dual-caster is one of the weaker things out there. He could be going Wizard/Warblade, Wizard/Factotum, Sorcerer/Rogue, Duskblade/Beguiler, or any other combo that would make his DM cry. Seriously, this unbalances nothing.

Gaiwecoor
2008-12-20, 11:15 AM
Ah, there it is. Now, I hope this dispels any conflicts, because it's directly from a WotC sourcebook (not FAQ), and it's unambiguous:



Multiclass Specialists and Prohibited Schools

As discussed on page 57 of the Player's Handbook, a specialist wizard pays for an increased affinity for the spells of his chosen school by selecting two prohibited schools (or just one, in the case of the diviner) whose spells, as well as spell trigger and spell completion items using those spells, are forever denied to him. One way around at least part of this restriction is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard.

There you have it. Multiclassing allows the secondary caster class to use prohibited wizard schools. Only the wizard class is affected by the prohibition.

only1doug
2008-12-20, 11:22 AM
This should keep it simple (and follows the FAQ rulings, etc.): Any spells from prohibited schools are effectively no longer on your class' spell list. They might as well be cleric spells, 'cuz you can't even handle the basics of them. Otherwise they are not especially forbidden. If you gain levels in another class, you can gain access accordingly.

correct by RAW.


That said, I do think it is a cheesy trick to overcome this limitation with a gestalt, though a minor trick. Dunno if your DM will let it fly, but it's technically allowable.

It's specifically allowed (suggested even) under non-gestalt (specialist wizard can should take one level of sorcerer to gain access to spells from forbidden schools (use wands, scrolls etc))

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 12:08 PM
This should keep it simple (and follows the FAQ rulings, etc.): Any spells from prohibited schools are effectively no longer on your class' spell list. They might as well be cleric spells, 'cuz you can't even handle the basics of them. Otherwise they are not especially forbidden. If you gain levels in another class, you can gain access accordingly.

That said, I do think it is a cheesy trick to overcome this limitation with a gestalt, though a minor trick. Dunno if your DM will let it fly, but it's technically allowable.

But what if you are a Wizard/Cleric gestalt? Say you had prohibited Abjuration and Evocation as your two schools to be a Transmuter Wizard. But you went Gestalt Transmuter//Cleric. Would you be able to pick up Protection from Evil as a Cleric spell?

The answer is 'yes'. Because you're not picking it up as a Wizard spell, you're picking it up as a Cleric spell.

Same concept applies. You're not picking it up as a Wizard spell. You're picking it up as a Sorcerer spell. Completely different method of obtaining the same goal.

As has already been stated, this is weak tea compared to some of the stuff he could be throwing around (Sorc/UberPRC//Swordsage or Wizard/Incantatrix/IotSV//Factorum, or hell just Rogue/Wiz)