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DoomHat
2008-12-20, 12:32 AM
I recently went to an 4E RPGA event at my local geek emporium. While participating, something stuck me as odd. Only one other player, out of the 6 of us, seemed to have any interest at all in the actual Role-Play element of the RolePlayingGame.
For example, I find itís normally pretty easy to catch on as to what race and class any given person is playing, normally. Most players seem to delight in their pretend persona, and take every opportunity to declare actions characteristic to their idiom. The dwarf rouge is casually slipping pickpocket items into his beard, the dragon born paladin is throwing platitudes to Bahamut in with every other sentence, and so on.
There was none of that there. I had to outright ask (almost demand) to know what everyoneís class and race were. But truth be told, there isnít just a whole lot of room for characterization in a prewritten adventure. The railroad is without question, and takes precedence over all things.
And then it hit me. All the (many) weird design choices Iíve been thinking about having to circumvent whenever I think about running a game of 4E, all fit perfectly into the style of play I saw at the RPGA. That style being, more like a wildly elaborate board game then an rpg.

Iím crushed! Iíve wasted nearly two hundred dollars on a role playing game that simply isnít meant for role playÖ

I donít want this to turn into a flame war, butÖ yeahÖ not happy.

*EDIT*
I now find (or I found not more then a page into this thread) that my concerns were by and large unwarranted. I recognize its possible to RP using effectively anything. At the heart of my concern was the idea that WotC might have designed 4E with the RPGA style of play firmly at heart (a disturbing prospect).
However I have been assured by the fine people of the forum that it is not the system that is to blame, but craptacular showcase modules.

Thank you all for your insight and reassurance. =D

JaxGaret
2008-12-20, 12:35 AM
I donít want this to turn into a flame war

Truer words were never spoken.

Kyace
2008-12-20, 12:39 AM
It's my understanding that 4E's fluff is completely malleable while the Crunch is supposed to keep it fun for everyone. The same character sheet and powers could be role played into several distinct characters, refluffing the powers as needed. The game seems to be meant to allow combat then 'get out of the way' for role play parts.

It's likely that the characters' crunch didn't give the players anywhere clearly defined to start from and the players didn't take the effort to role play beyond 'mildly good adventurers on a quest'.

IMO, at least.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-20, 12:40 AM
Iím crushed! Iíve wasted nearly two hundred dollars on a role playing game that simply isnít meant for role playÖ

This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.

Trust me when I say that you can run a perfectly normal RPG using 4E. People who liked to RP in 3E, 2E or 1E still RP when playing 4E; there's no rule against it.

Probably what you ran into is a bunch of RPG newbies. 4E has been widely touted to be a great "starter RPG" and if that is to be believed it would make sense to see many new players at mass events like an RPGA game. And RPGA modules aren't particularly well known for flexibility of plot.

I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

RebelRogue
2008-12-20, 12:40 AM
The players supply the roleplaying, not the system. Simple as that!

JaxGaret
2008-12-20, 12:41 AM
I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

I'm curious about this as well. It wasn't elaborated on at all in the OP.

Rutskarn
2008-12-20, 12:42 AM
I really don't see your point of view.

Fourth Edition has "RPG" on the cover. Fourth Edition has some flavor details to get things rolling. What else do you need to role-play?

Are you saying the flavor is unsuited for role-playing? That doesn't really make any sense to me. Within the body of your post, you yourself contain examples of ways the flavor details could come into a vibrant, well-rounded character. Besides, one does not need too many details of race or class to create an interesting character--at some point, even in the most colorful of settings, individual creativity must take the reins.

Are you saying that the setting does not encourage role-playing, thus leading to the unfortunate scenario above? This depends much upon the group you play with, I suppose, but I would guess that any random 4.0 group is just as likely to role-play as 3.5 groups.

I think you may be reading too much into your experience.

EDIT: I have experienced my first ninja'd moment. This place feels more like home than ever before.

RTGoodman
2008-12-20, 12:43 AM
This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.


The players supply the rolesplying, not the system. Simple as that!

Man, you guys always beat me to answers... :smallfrown: :smalltongue:

Yeah, that, basically. Don't blame the system - you can just as easily roleplay in 3.x, 4E, GURPS, SWSE, Gunslingers & Gamblers, or any other system you can think of. It's the PLAYERS, not the GAME.

(This, of course, is probably going to end up locked by page 3...)

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 12:54 AM
This is not a failure of the system; it is a failure of the event.

Trust me when I say that you can run a perfectly normal RPG using 4E. People who liked to RP in 3E, 2E or 1E still RP when playing 4E; there's no rule against it.

Probably what you ran into is a bunch of RPG newbies. 4E has been widely touted to be a great "starter RPG" and if that is to be believed it would make sense to see many new players at mass events like an RPGA game. And RPGA modules aren't particularly well known for flexibility of plot.

I am curious, though: what aspects of 4E do you need to "circumvent" to run your games?

Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? Thereís no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?
Also, powers. I like powers, they add a bit of variety to what the players my chose to do in the course of a round besides, ďI hits it with mah great swordĒ. But they also kind of handcuff players. What if the rouge wants to try and trip the minotaur as it charges the fighter. You got a power that knocks a target prone? No? Too bad.

Iím not saying itís impossible to RP using 4E, no more then it is impossible to RP with CandyLand. But neither do much to help.

Keld Denar
2008-12-20, 12:58 AM
Just like you said, its an RPGA event. Its not a standard home game style D&D event. Its part of WotCs marketing arm. I know, I've participated in RPGA Living Campaigns as player, DM, and co-author for about the last 8ish years now, since the birth of Living Greyhawk.

Now, I can honestly say I'm rather disappointed in LFR, the 4e vehicle of the RPGA, in that its modules are MUCH more linear than LG ever was, and currently includes MUCH less RP than LG ever did. Some of the best RPers I've ever met, I met though the RPGA, and to this day, I still remember a few of the most memorable characters and players.

I can see where you are coming from. LFR does end up feeling like an elaborate board game, or even an MMORPG, or at least convention play does. This is primarily due to time constraints on convention play. If you sit and RP for 3 of the 4 hour alloted time slot, you won't accomplish very many of the scenario goals, many of which are combat oriented. My recommendation to you if you choose to keep playing RPGA games, is find a group of 5-7 people and schedule regular "home" games. Rotate who judges the module so that everyone gets to play, and play in the comfort of someone's living room or basement. That way, you don't have the time contraints associated with tournament play, and can relax and RP the living daylights out of the mod as you wish. Thats what we did in LG when mods were "investigative" or "RP-intensive". Mods that are "combat intensive" were the ones we'd typically play at organized game days and conventions.

You'll find that that greatly enhances your RP enjoyment of the game. Best of luck!

JaxGaret
2008-12-20, 01:01 AM
Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? Thereís no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?

There's also no skill for walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time. Imagine that.


Also, powers. I like powers, they add a bit of variety to what the players my chose to do in the course of a round besides, ďI hits it with mah great swordĒ. But they also kind of handcuff players. What if the rouge wants to try and trip the minotaur as it charges the fighter. You got a power that knocks a target prone? No? Too bad.

Page 42 of the DMG.


Iím not saying itís impossible to RP using 4E, no more then it is impossible to RP with CandyLand. But neither do much to help.

At least you didn't say Chutes & Ladders. Not very original though.

Dervag
2008-12-20, 01:05 AM
Limited skills for one. Say your cleric of Kord believes that one of the best ways to worship the thunder god is to make noise. To do this she uses musical instruments. So what does she roll if she comes across an exotic string instrument? Can she figure it out? Thereís no skill that comes remotely close, but she should damn well have one, this being a focus in her life.
The characters are out to sea, one is the captain of the ship, any rolls for navigation? Steering the ship away from the coral?You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

In some ways, I wouldn't be surprised if 4th Edition is objectively not as good at supporting roleplay as 3rd. But I would be equally unsurprised to find out that there are other ways in which 4th is better than 3rd. But because you're used to 3rd, a lot of people have gotten used to considering the things it makes easy important parts of your roleplaying, and things that it makes hard to be less important.

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 01:09 AM
At least you didn't say Chutes & Ladders. Not very original though.
Well, if you think about it, Rping a game of Candyland could be a hell of a lot of fun. I mean, you have a clearly established setting, with interesting terrain a variety of NPCs to met along the way.

Also I relent. My point is silly. But I feel a lot better all the same.
Ring the bells, dance in the streets, for this day, an argument was won on the internet.

Keld Denar
2008-12-20, 01:11 AM
Just for further clarification people, the OP is refering to RPGA (RolePlaying Gamer's Association) event. Check out www.rpga.com for more details. His complaints are primarily with the RPGA campaing Living Forgotten Realms (LFR), not with 4e in general.

Just thought I'd point that out, since most people seem to be critiquing 4e in general, rather than LFR and RPGA tournament play specifically. Oh, and it irks me when people post a bunch of crap that wanders off topic because they only read 1/2 the OP before launching into their own propaganda laiden anecdotes. [/rant]

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-20, 01:13 AM
I will point out that most, if not all, of the modules so far designed for 4E, including roughly ninety percent of the Living Forgotten Realms modules I have seen, are utter rubbish. In addition to being designed specifically to facilitate this viewpoint--that is, they fail catastrophically in both inspiring enjoyable roleplay and showcasing the manifold ingenuities of the 4E combat system.

Also, in my experience, RPGA games in general are rubbish; the modular nature of the games, the over-wide player base (and utter lack of, um, screening), and what passes for a disjointed and one-size-doesn't-really-fit-all metaplot all combine with two effects.
1. They produce a much greater chance that you'll end up with, um, not the kind of table you'd want for your home game, since in many cases if they could get a home game they'd be doing that on a Saturday night...
2. They produce characters of a thoroughly lackluster nature. You really only have two choices, unless you're a true master of your art. You can play something like you normally would, which--with the so-so DMs (used to running rubbish disjointed modules with ever-circulating players/characters) you may end up with, and the rubbish modules, and the okay players (who probably don't know you), and the ever-circulating player base (which hasn't met your character), and the likelihood that you'll be playing more than one character (since this one didn't really get anywhere)--with all of that, your hero will stick out in their minds like an invisible polar bear in a snowstorm on a white background. Or you could play a very loud one-note character, which is more fun than the invisible-stalker shtick and will actually be remembered and referenced by the other players. You generally get a lot more of the first kind than the second kind, and the quiet guys often drop out after a couple of weeks anyway.

Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.

So: again, this is my experience only. IME, YMMV, EtC. :smallsmile:

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 01:14 AM
You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

In some ways, I wouldn't be surprised if 4th Edition is objectively not as good at supporting roleplay as 3rd. But I would be equally unsurprised to find out that there are other ways in which 4th is better than 3rd. But because you're used to 3rd, a lot of people have gotten used to considering the things it makes easy important parts of your roleplaying, and things that it makes hard to be less important.

But that's just it, I've never really played a lot of 3.X. I think I have a 3.5 players handbook gathering dust somewhere or other, but that's about all.

Thurbane
2008-12-20, 01:14 AM
The players supply the roleplaying, not the system. Simple as that!
True, but some systems lend themselves to RP far better than others.

For instance, if the system permits you to sink resources (skills, feats, wealth etc.) into an aspect of your character that has no combat purpose, it can make it easier for some players to help flesh out their character's personality.

Keld Denar
2008-12-20, 01:19 AM
Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.


Actually, you hit it fairly squarely on the head there. The wide player base coupled with the narrow module goals plus the typical 4-5 hour time constraint can turn Living Forgotten Realms into Living Forgotten Meatgrinder.

To remedy this, take my suggestion above. Find some people that you enjoy playing with. Take turns running the modules. Spend as much time on character developement and RP as you choose.

Just don't be disappointed if you go to a convention or similar and people get mad at you because your character spent 2 of the alloted 4 hours "developing" yourself, and the rest of the table missed out on gold, xp, and items because they couldn't finish the module. Thats the other side of the coin. Courtesy and all that jazz.

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 01:20 AM
I will point out that most, if not all, of the modules so far designed for 4E, including roughly ninety percent of the Living Forgotten Realms modules I have seen, are utter rubbish. In addition to being designed specifically to facilitate this viewpoint--that is, they fail catastrophically in both inspiring enjoyable roleplay and showcasing the manifold ingenuities of the 4E combat system.

Also, in my experience, RPGA games in general are rubbish; the modular nature of the games, the over-wide player base (and utter lack of, um, screening), and what passes for a disjointed and one-size-doesn't-really-fit-all metaplot all combine with two effects.
1. They produce a much greater chance that you'll end up with, um, not the kind of table you'd want for your home game, since in many cases if they could get a home game they'd be doing that on a Saturday night...
2. They produce characters of a thoroughly lackluster nature. You really only have two choices, unless you're a true master of your art. You can play something like you normally would, which--with the so-so DMs (used to running rubbish disjointed modules with ever-circulating players/characters) you may end up with, and the rubbish modules, and the okay players (who probably don't know you), and the ever-circulating player base (which hasn't met your character), and the likelihood that you'll be playing more than one character (since this one didn't really get anywhere)--with all of that, your hero will stick out in their minds like an invisible polar bear in a snowstorm on a white background. Or you could play a very loud one-note character, which is more fun than the invisible-stalker shtick and will actually be remembered and referenced by the other players. You generally get a lot more of the first kind than the second kind, and the quiet guys often drop out after a couple of weeks anyway.

Your mileage may vary, and this being the internet you probably can't wait to tell me just how wrong I am.

So: again, this is my experience only. IME, YMMV, EtC. :smallsmile:


Just for further clarification people, the OP is refering to RPGA (RolePlaying Gamer's Association) event. Check out www.rpga.com for more details. His complaints are primarily with the RPGA campaing Living Forgotten Realms (LFR), not with 4e in general.

Just thought I'd point that out, since most people seem to be critiquing 4e in general, rather than LFR and RPGA tournament play specifically. Oh, and it irks me when people post a bunch of crap that wanders off topic because they only read 1/2 the OP before launching into their own propaganda laiden anecdotes. [/rant]

Most helpful posts ever. My main concern, and reason for making this thread, was the worry that 4E was designed with the RPGA specifically in mind. I now see that was largely unwarranted.

Eh, heh... Uh, sorry for wasting everyone's time a guess?

Artanis
2008-12-20, 01:23 AM
True, but some systems lend themselves to RP far better than others.
One word: Exalted :smalltongue:

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 01:27 AM
One word: Exalted :smalltongue:

Another single word: Agreed.

*Edit* Also Mutants and Masterminds looks like it's got a lot of potential.

Thurbane
2008-12-20, 01:32 AM
One word: Exalted :smalltongue:
I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 01:51 AM
I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?

Characters are start off so obscenely powerful that combat is often more or less incidental. Only one Ďclassí (for lack of a better term) out of five specializes in any form of fighting whatsoever. The shear mass of non combative abilities powers and skills makes it almost impossible NOT to put some thought into your character's, background, personality, and how they interact with the world at large.

We are now miles off topic. Though this would make for a great new thread in it's own right.

Artanis
2008-12-20, 01:52 AM
I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?
Its setting ties into the characters a lot more than DnD, for one thing. In DnD, the setting is just where your character comes from, but in Exalted, the setting is in a situation that has molded your character into what it is, and that situation is both due to and the cause of the way in which your character became an Exalt, a Chosen of the Gods.

Mechanically, there's also "stunt bonuses". You get bonuses on rolls for good descriptions of what you're doing. Saying "I whack it with my daiklave" does just that, but a vivid description of how you charge the enemy and scythe through a stone column to get to the foe behind it is going to get you a bonus on the attack and some Essence (mana, basically) back.


I honestly can't think of ways it's worse for RP, though somebody with more knowledge of the systems in question might know better.

BardicDuelist
2008-12-20, 01:58 AM
Honestly, I'm going to have to chime in with everyone else that the game does not make people RP or not RP. Hell, my group RPs when playing Zombies!!!

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 02:00 AM
Honestly, I'm going to have to chime in with everyone else that the game does not make people RP or not RP. Hell, my group RPs when playing Zombies!!!

You aren't paying very close attention are you? :smallfrown:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-20, 02:02 AM
What is your overall point? That RPGA stifles roleplay? That 4e stifles roleplay? That there isn't enough crunch to back up important fluff (for instance, your Kordian cleric example)? I'm unsure as to where we're supposed to be going with this?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-20, 02:04 AM
You could what people did in earlier editions and make it up as you go along.

Seriously. The thing that's struck me since the advent of 3.0, especially online, (and mostly compared ot experienced read in Dragon and other, non-D&D fanzines and on the sites of old players of RuneQuest), was that the majority of players seem to have some weird difficulties going outside of the rules, which is why they seem to feel the rules need to cover everything.

I started out on red-box D&D, and you can bet your ass there were no rules for disarming, tripping, bull-rushing, or anything of the sort. There were rules for hitting things, and there were even a few spells. Anything and everything beyond those, you made up yourself, and it worked out nicely.

The same was true for RuneQuest (and still is, really). You have rules for disarming and bad rules for grappling, but anything more complicated - like knocking your opponent into a fire, or off a cliff, or whatever) was a matter of improvisation.

It's a paradigm-shift between 3.5 and 4E, sure, but to say that the lack of specific rules for every single thing is more restrictive than having rules for every single thing is silly.

And the notion that the system itself has any bearing on how much or how well people roleplay is just crazy. Certainly, the game may develop a reputation as being all hack-and-slash and no roleplay, but if 4E has any such reputation, it's inherited it from (A)D&D, which has always been most famous as the pre-eminent hack-and-slash, dungeon-crawl, loot-hauling RPG. (A matter of perceived prevalent play-styles rather than the system, obviously.)

Edit: Also, yes, different systems do support different play-styles, which may encourage players to play a certain way. I have a hard time imagining anyone playing HeroQuest (http://glorantha.com/) as a hack-and-slash game. The game uses the exact same mechanic for combat as for any other challenge, and you can create perfectly valid characters with absolutely no actual weapon or combat skills, who can haul their weight in any and all scenes. (Being able to use any one skill in a scene is just a matter of convincing the other people at the table that it makes sense.)

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 02:07 AM
What is your overall point? That RPGA stifles roleplay? That 4e stifles roleplay? That there isn't enough crunch to back up important fluff (for instance, your Kordian cleric example)? I'm unsure as to where we're supposed to be going with this?

That there isn't enough crunch in 4E to back up important fluff. But I've relented. Several times up to this point. If a mod wouldn't mind bringing a lock? I'm pretty sure we're done here.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-20, 02:08 AM
I'm pretty sure we're done here.

That's not how forums work, fortunately. You ain't King of the Thread.

RTGoodman
2008-12-20, 02:11 AM
That's not how forums work, fortunately. You ain't King of the Thread.

No kidding - have you ever seen THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068) abomination? :smalltongue:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-20, 02:19 AM
No kidding - have you ever seen THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068) abomination? :smalltongue:

Looks like a disguised postcount++ thread.

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 02:30 AM
That's not how forums work, fortunately. You ain't King of the Thread.

I was answering a ligitimate question. Zousha asked where the thread was going. I responded that it looks like nowhere apparently.

WickerNipple
2008-12-20, 03:15 AM
I haven't been to a RPGA since the early 90s for exactly this reason, and that was relatively new AD&D 2e.

Problem was the reliance on fixed modules and standardization of the game for scoring reasons -- though there was definitely a faction blaming the staleness on the relatively new version of the game at the time.

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 03:27 AM
Aaaaaaaahaahaha!
If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you?

KKL
2008-12-20, 03:37 AM
Aaaaaaaahaahaha!
If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you?

Other people?

Kurald Galain
2008-12-20, 04:54 AM
It should come as no surprise that a public event (like RPGA or any Con) attracts quite a lot of players that you wouldn't want to have in your steady years-long-ongoing campaign.

Yes, there are people on such events that want to fight but not roleplay, and yes, it is possible to get through pretty much every RPGA adventure by doing precisely that.

Kiero
2008-12-20, 05:13 AM
I recently went to an 4E RPGA event at my local geek emporium.

Herein lies your problem. The RPGA doesn't seem to have ever had anything to do with roleplaying.

bosssmiley
2008-12-20, 06:41 AM
No kidding - have you ever seen THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068) abomination? :smalltongue:

I hear tell people come here from distant forums just to look at that thread and laugh. It's like a Victorian circus freakshow or the old Bedlam Hospital ("Visiting hours! Mock our loonies! Prod them with sticks! Fun and Educational! Bring the whole family! ") in that respect. :smallamused:

As for the OP's concern about lack of roleplaying. Echoing Keiro above I'd say it's more a problem with the tournament player mindset than it is an edition wars issue. I've seen similar with competitive GW and Magic players here in the UK: love of winning trumps love of the game in their minds to the point where you begin to think "why do you even bother?" :smallannoyed:

Starscream
2008-12-20, 07:08 AM
I don't think the 4E rules are any less conducive to RP than any previous edition. The small number of books out so far is a limiting factor as to how many character types you can make (at least compared to the vast library of 3.5 books), but there is absolutely no way the rules prevent your character from behaving any way he she or it likes.

Then again, I'm a guy who roleplays Monopoly, so maybe I should just sit quietly in the corner and come up with backstories for each of my toes.

The only problem I have noticed seems to be one of mis-aimed marketing rather than a problem with the rules. I like WoW fine, but targeting the game at that sort of player strikes me as a mistake. Not natural roleplayers. Use DPS as a verb.

A few WoW addict friends of mine heard that the new D&D was sort of like it and asked me to teach them. When I explained how you are supposed to actually speak as your character and give him a personality they looked at me like I was speaking martian. They just couldn't see how that could possibly impact your enjoyment of the game.

lisiecki
2008-12-20, 08:16 AM
Another single word: Agreed.

*Edit* Also Mutants and Masterminds looks like it's got a lot of potential.

Yarg?

I love mutants and masterminds
I love it in a way i should love my lover

But ALL mutants and masterminds is is a list of powers
a list of powers that ROCK ASS
But a list of powers none the less

how is that more suitable for roleplay, than anything else on earth?

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 08:35 AM
True enough. But at least a good portion of them are fairly utilitarian, having to do with things other then killing monsters.
Thinking in terms of flexibility of play, more then anything.

You can do any number of things with M&M, but 4E seems to revolve around only one sort of game. Find a thing, kill the thing, loot the thing, rinse, repeat.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-20, 08:42 AM
Mutants & Masterminds is the game that can do anything well, mechanically. While the concept of generic powers is similar to 4e, it's way on the other end of the spectrum in terms of character customization options.

However, all this is irrelevant to roleplaying, as it's all mechanics. You can do pretty much whatever you want in terms of characterization regardless of the mechanics of the game you're playing, although some people find more diverse mechanics helps them feel like a more unique character.

However, the original problem is that you were playing Fox only, no items, FINAL DESTINATION RPGA, as I'm sure you've realized from all the comments to this effect.

Morty
2008-12-20, 08:49 AM
Mutants & Masterminds is the game that can do anything well, mechanically.

Is it? I was under the impression it's designed for games in "superheroes and supervillains" genre.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-20, 08:51 AM
It's flavored that way, but the fundamental design is so modular and versatile it can easily do quite nearly any genre or setting, as long as you don't mind abstract, cinematic combat mechanics or re-fluffing powers (which you kinda have to do even for a superhero game, as they're very general).

Morty
2008-12-20, 08:53 AM
It's flavored that way, but the fundamental design is so modular and versatile it can easily do quite nearly any genre or setting, as long as you don't mind abstract, cinematic combat mechanics or re-fluffing powers (which you kinda have to do even for a superhero game, as they're very general).

I find it hard to belive, somehow. Is it, for example, fit for a gritty, lethal, WFRPG-style game?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-20, 08:58 AM
It's possible, but since "gritty" and "lethal" are most commonly used in gaming to refer to combat mechanics, and I've never so much as glanced at WFRPG, I'm not really sure. The combat is going to remain on the cinematic end of things pretty much no matter what you do (although applying Damage to all your rolls and not just Toughness saves makes combat a lot more dangerous), but narrative style and tone? Easily.

Asbestos
2008-12-20, 09:34 AM
Several bits of this thread have made me wonder if a group of playgrounders could get together and create a good 'showcase' module for 4e. I think they could.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-20, 09:37 AM
Several bits of this thread have made me wonder if a group of playgrounders could get together and create a good 'showcase' module for 4e. I think they could.

I think they could do better than WOTC's actual showcase modules, in fact.

Morty
2008-12-20, 09:39 AM
It's possible, but since "gritty" and "lethal" are most commonly used in gaming to refer to combat mechanics, and I've never so much as glanced at WFRPG, I'm not really sure. The combat is going to remain on the cinematic end of things pretty much no matter what you do (although applying Damage to all your rolls and not just Toughness saves makes combat a lot more dangerous), but narrative style and tone? Easily.

Hm. I might take a look at this, but neither universal mechanics nor cinematic combat are my cups of tea. I was just curious, thanks for explanation.

Asbestos
2008-12-20, 09:46 AM
I think they could do better than WOTC's actual showcase modules, in fact.

Exactly. I mean, it seems that everyone agrees that the showcase modules WotC puts out are awful and it seems that there is a fair amount of experience in these forums. I feel like a damn good showcase module could be made.

ken-do-nim
2008-12-20, 11:27 AM
I started out on red-box D&D, and you can bet your ass there were no rules for disarming, tripping, bull-rushing, or anything of the sort. There were rules for hitting things, and there were even a few spells. Anything and everything beyond those, you made up yourself, and it worked out nicely.


Just a quick historical comment here. The idea behind Red Box was not that those rules weren't important, but that the rules would be revealed gradually, and Red Box was the first of 5 sets. Red Box was for beginner DMs as well as players. By the time the Companion and Masters sets were out, the combat rules became quite sophisticated, and you had disarms, smashing, hooking, stunning, wrestling etc.

lisiecki
2008-12-20, 12:17 PM
True enough. But at least a good portion of them are fairly utilitarian, having to do with things other then killing monsters.
Thinking in terms of flexibility of play, more then anything.
You can do any number of things with M&M, but 4E seems to revolve around only one sort of game. Find a thing, kill the thing, loot the thing, rinse, repeat.

...

Ya there's... teleport

and a dozen or so versions of blast... and the fact that mechanically you cant loot anything... unless you have the graft power...

And there's... well density gives you super strength so that's more beating things up...

What i don't get here, is basically your saying that you need MORE rules in order to role play?

You know, most people argure the other way around that the fewer set in stone rules you have, teh easier it is to roleplay something like nobilis



I find it hard to belive, somehow. Is it, for example, fit for a gritty, lethal, WFRPG-style game?

Incredibly easy, thanks for asking


Hm. I might take a look at this, but neither universal mechanics nor cinematic combat are my cups of tea. I was just curious, thanks for explanation.

No no, that's ok, you can just save it for people who love it and appreciate it.
I mean, after all, M&M already has these "people" playing it. The things you find when you search for PBP games on line...
http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=Super_Loli_Wars

Artanis
2008-12-20, 01:21 PM
...but 4E seems to revolve around only one sort of game. Find a thing, kill the thing, loot the thing, rinse, repeat.
No more than 3.5 did. 3.5 revolved around find a thing, kill the thing, loot the thing, rinse, repeat, and in between use a spell to make most of the entire skill system irrelevant.


So you see, if you can RP it in 3.5, you can RP it in 4e.

Aptera
2008-12-20, 01:22 PM
Exactly. I mean, it seems that everyone agrees that the showcase modules WotC puts out are awful and it seems that there is a fair amount of experience in these forums. I feel like a damn good showcase module could be made.
i'd love to do that! It sounds like a lot of fun. :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2008-12-20, 09:05 PM
So you see, if you can RP it in 3.5, you can RP it in 4e.
Again, while that is true, the fact the 3.5 allows you to add more non-combat related crunch to your character than 4e does, makes it easier for some people to RP under 3.5.

It's not a binary can/can't deal; just that more non-combat related crunch in a game can help some players to better envision (and better RP) their character...

DoomHat
2008-12-20, 10:54 PM
...

Ya there's... teleport

and a dozen or so versions of blast... and the fact that mechanically you cant loot anything... unless you have the graft power...

And there's... well density gives you super strength so that's more beating things up...

I'm not sure which addition you've got a hold of by mine has things like, swimming, dimension pocket, metamorph, elongation, comprehend, ESP, anatomic separation, and a diverse array of skills.


What i don't get here, is basically your saying that you need MORE rules in order to role play?

You know, most people argure the other way around that the fewer set in stone rules you have, teh easier it is to roleplay something like nobilis

Iím tiered of explaining this again and again in every post so Iím going to go ahead and edit my original.
I have conceded the god damned point already. I recognize itís possible to RP using effectively anything. My concern was that WotC might have designed 4E with the RPGA style of play firmly at heart, and that disturbed me. Now I am not so sure, and am content to go about my business.

Keld Denar
2008-12-20, 11:01 PM
Exactly. I mean, it seems that everyone agrees that the showcase modules WotC puts out are awful and it seems that there is a fair amount of experience in these forums. I feel like a damn good showcase module could be made.

Actually, RPGA events are written by volunteers. You too could join the RPGA (free), download the writting guidelines (free), and submit scenario ideas to the governing volunteers (also free). If your ideas are at all good, you may be selected to submit a draft of a module, including all encounters scaled to mulitple tiers of play which may or may not be found worthy of publishing. For all of this, you will probably invest 40-50 hours of thinking, writting, and assmbling stat blocks for the monsters you will use, from which you will recieve no pay, and probably the scorn of a bunch of idiots on the internet who have nothing better to do than to mock your honest efforts.

Now if you wish to continue bashing the RPGA authors, some of whom are my friend who I will fiercely defend, I suggest you try authoring yourself. Come back here to this thread with a published module in your name, and I may listen to your idle threats about how much of a better job you can do, but until then, respectfully, get bent.

Its like insulting the firefighters and police officers at 9/11 because they only got MOST of the people out of the WTC alive.

Mando Knight
2008-12-20, 11:04 PM
The RPGA doesn't seem to have ever had anything to do with roleplaying.

Indeed. It's about as much about a Role-Playing Game as WoW...

...Both have thousands of players throughout the globe, both have people that role-play if you look hard enough, and both have even more people that don't.

...RPGA: A Massively Multiplayer Offline RPG.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-20, 11:15 PM
To be fair, the main reason we didn't have much roleplay when I joined RPGA games was that we were in a time crunch. We didn't have all day to do the modules, so we had to skip things. Hell, when we did "Barrow of the Ogre King," we only really fought the initial skirmish in Loudwater, and the goblin shaman at the end. For all the other ones, we basically burst into the room, immediately got into a tactically advantageous position (blocking all the doors and thus preventing escape) and then basically said to the goblins "You REALLY wanna fight us? You're probably just gonna die." They surrendered immediately, allowing us to effectively skip the fights.

By the time it was all over, we had the entire tribe trussed up and handed over to Loudwater. The jails were probably overcrowded afterwards with all the goblins we sent them.

It helps to have someone who's a D&D tactical genius playing the warlord in the group. He just pointed where we needed to go and we didn't lose a single encounter.

Yahzi
2008-12-20, 11:54 PM
Thank you all for your incite and reassurance. =D
That's either a misspelling, or a terribly clever pun.

:smallbiggrin:

DoomHat
2008-12-21, 12:20 AM
That's either a misspelling, or a terribly clever pun.

:smallbiggrin:

*shifty eyes*
Oh, the latter most assuredly! Also, I have no idea what you are talking about, I can find no evidence of such error. We have always been at war with Oceania.

Bugbeartrap
2008-12-21, 01:47 AM
*shifty eyes*
Oh, the latter most assuredly! Also, I have no idea what you are talking about, I can find no evidence of such error. We have always been at war with Oceania.

I'll take 1985 reference for 200 points please.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-21, 02:09 AM
(...)
What i don't get here, is basically your saying that you need MORE rules in order to role play?
(...)
Like Vampire: The Masquerade. I saw a book (players handbook, maybe), with rules on which skills to use to seduce a person, take him/her to dinner, become good friends, become lovers, and finally take him/her to bed.

... I kid you not! There's almost 2 pages of rules to do only that. Maybe that's what 4E is needing? More social skills and rules for people to roleplay roll more utilitarian scenes?

DoomHat
2008-12-21, 02:14 AM
{Scrubbed}

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-21, 02:14 AM
You really shouldn't need rules like that to roleplay. All they really do is constrict you. :smallsigh:

4e really isn't made for forcing people to roleplay in the slightest.

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 03:57 AM
Like Vampire: The Masquerade. I saw a book (players handbook, maybe), with rules on which skills to use to seduce a person, take him/her to dinner, become good friends, become lovers, and finally take him/her to bed.
... I kid you not! There's almost 2 pages of rules to do only that. Maybe that's what 4E is needing? More social skills and rules for people to roleplay roll more utilitarian scenes?

In M&M?
MandM has the same chart as 3.5 (im pretty sure)
Now i fully admit that from time to time i go to the local MandM game as a complete ripoff of Jack Harkness (Cha 50, emotion control, love, aura, limited to targets tactical senses)

I don't remember that chart, I've played vampire more than a few times, and the way to get MOST people to love you is to dump a few gallons of your blood down there neck

{Scrubbed}

isnt that exactly what you said you wanted?
more rules for social interaction

Kurald Galain
2008-12-21, 04:19 AM
... I kid you not! There's almost 2 pages of rules to do only that. Maybe that's what 4E is needing? More social skills and rules for people to roleplay roll more utilitarian scenes?

Ah, we definitely need a 4E version of the BOEF :smallbiggrin:

KKL
2008-12-21, 05:16 AM
Ah, we definitely need a 4E version of the BOEF :smallbiggrin:

Epic Destiny: Whore of Babylon

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-21, 09:57 AM
I begin to long for the gray, distant future. There, in The Matrix like interactive physical simulation, I will finally be able to straggle people who like to say things without reading/listening through the internet.

I think I can empathize with that sentiment, (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/1/) though I would reserve it for the real wallbangers. I mean, with great power comes great responsibility, right? You can't just go about e-crushing the trachea of mildly irritating people willy-nilly.

I like your OP edit, but it's a little subtle here. You might try something more along the lines of
I CONCEDED THE POINT. YOU CAN SHUT UP NOW.

Matthew
2008-12-21, 10:11 AM
Straggle? Is that some sort of kinky combination of straddling and strangling? :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem
2008-12-21, 10:12 AM
I'll take 1985 reference for 200 points please.

... I really hope your making an obscure joke I've failed to get. And didnt get the year wrong.

Roland St. Jude
2008-12-21, 11:23 AM
I think I can empathize with that sentiment, (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/1/) though I would reserve it for the real wallbangers. I mean, with great power comes great responsibility, right? You can't just go about e-crushing the trachea of mildly irritating people willy-nilly.

I like your OP edit, but it's a little subtle here. You might try something more along the lines of
I CONCEDED THE POINT. YOU CAN SHUT UP NOW.

Sheriff of Moddingham: I would recommend not doing that actually, as it violates the Forum Rules.

Artanis
2008-12-21, 11:55 AM
Again, while that is true, the fact the 3.5 allows you to add more non-combat related crunch to your character than 4e does, makes it easier for some people to RP under 3.5.

It's not a binary can/can't deal; just that more non-combat related crunch in a game can help some players to better envision (and better RP) their character...
And 4e has a great deal more crunch for actually using the non-combat stuff you give your character.

So once again, for anything 3.5 has in terms of RP, 4e has something equivalent that turns out just as well.

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 04:03 PM
*EDIT*
At the heart of my concern was the idea that WotC might have designed 4E with the RPGA style of play firmly at heart (a disturbing prospect).


Ok, but why did you think that in the firats place

Whats the RPGA style of play, and if it WAS designed for it, what would the problem be?

Thurbane
2008-12-21, 04:08 PM
And 4e has a great deal more crunch for actually using the non-combat stuff you give your character.

So once again, for anything 3.5 has in terms of RP, 4e has something equivalent that turns out just as well.
Hmm, I don't own any 4e books, but from my quick flip through, and from what I've been told, 4e has virtually no non-combat crunch, especially in terms of skills and feats. Is this not correct?

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 05:04 PM
Hmm, I don't own any 4e books, but from my quick flip through, and from what I've been told, 4e has virtually no non-combat crunch, especially in terms of skills and feats. Is this not correct?

Well, no its not. There arn't many skills ill give you that, but there are plenty feats to make OoC Skills IC skills, to train nontrained skills, and to pump up skills that you already have ranks in

Starscream
2008-12-21, 05:42 PM
Hmm, I don't own any 4e books, but from my quick flip through, and from what I've been told, 4e has virtually no non-combat crunch, especially in terms of skills and feats. Is this not correct?

It's true that the number of skills has been reduced, and that pretty much all class "powers" are strictly combat maneuvers, but 4E actually has a lot to say about non-combat crunch.

The DMG has a whole chapter called "non-combat encounters" which deal with "skill challenges". Essentially it's a way to quantify and run things like negotiating with a king, or finding your way through the woods, complete with multiple skills checks and experience point awards. Basically you need to accumulate a certain number of successes before a certain number of failures for the correct outcome.

Nice system really, although I personally would have entitled the chapter "No, Duh" because it is essentially what DMs have been doing for ages without a book to tell them how. Once again they're targeting the newbies, I guess.

Knaight
2008-12-21, 05:42 PM
That and skill challenges work really well in some situations. I don't like them for social encounters much, but for stuff like trekking through the wilderness they work well, at least the errata version. The default version is really, really stupid, but the errata fixes it.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-21, 05:56 PM
That and skill challenges work really well in some situations.
And really poorly in some others. To some players (or DMs) I know, it simply becomes a contest in making up vague reasons for why your highest-ranked skill applies in whatever situation you're facing.

KKL
2008-12-21, 08:15 PM
And really poorly in some others. To some players (or DMs) I know, it simply becomes a contest in making up vague reasons for why your highest-ranked skill applies in whatever situation you're facing.

"I bluff reality into thinking that we do NOT want to reach the end of this godforsaken cave complex."
"So what the hell is that going to do?"
"Murphy's Law will bless us. We will escape."

DoomHat
2008-12-21, 09:10 PM
Straggle? Is that some sort of kinky combination of straddling and strangling? :smallbiggrin:

I like it! Lets us say that is indeed what I intended, rather then a typo. Which it is clearly not. Typos are for the imperfect!


Epic Destiny: Whore of Babylon

As you can see, from the Mod Redacted post above, the Vampire reference further above insulted me, however, I do believe I'd play the hell out of that.

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 09:35 PM
I just wana know what the RPGA is, and what there play style would be :((

DoomHat
2008-12-21, 09:45 PM
Well gosh, I think the first page of this thread over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100112) just about covers it. There's even a link or two!

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 09:48 PM
Wow,
Sarcasm
Ask an honest question, get a sarcastic reply,
I guess its my own fault for being curious

DoomHat
2008-12-21, 09:53 PM
www.rpga.com They play it much like an overly complex board game. More interested in tweeking, combat, and loot then RP.

I was just trying to encourage you to read before you asked silly questions.

lisiecki
2008-12-21, 09:57 PM
www.rpga.com They play it much like an overly complex board game. More interested in tweeking, combat, and loot then RP.

I was just trying to encourage you to read before you asked silly questions.

No, no thats ok.
Im going to PM you my home address, so that you can come over and beat me in front of my children.
Hopefully then they will learn not to be as stuped as i am

Asbestos
2008-12-22, 12:41 PM
Actually, RPGA events are written by volunteers. You too could join the RPGA (free), download the writting guidelines (free), and submit scenario ideas to the governing volunteers (also free). If your ideas are at all good, you may be selected to submit a draft of a module, including all encounters scaled to mulitple tiers of play which may or may not be found worthy of publishing. For all of this, you will probably invest 40-50 hours of thinking, writting, and assmbling stat blocks for the monsters you will use, from which you will recieve no pay, and probably the scorn of a bunch of idiots on the internet who have nothing better to do than to mock your honest efforts.

Now if you wish to continue bashing the RPGA authors, some of whom are my friend who I will fiercely defend, I suggest you try authoring yourself. Come back here to this thread with a published module in your name, and I may listen to your idle threats about how much of a better job you can do, but until then, respectfully, get bent.

Its like insulting the firefighters and police officers at 9/11 because they only got MOST of the people out of the WTC alive.

Dude, where did I ever say that I could do something better? I said 'playgrounders', of which, yes I am one, but I'm not everyone. I'm pretty sure, that if certain members of this community, a group which may or may not include myself, got together and wrote up a 4e module, it could in fact be pretty darn good.

Keld Denar
2008-12-22, 01:13 PM
Dude, where did I ever say that I could do something better? I said 'playgrounders', of which, yes I am one, but I'm not everyone. I'm pretty sure, that if certain members of this community, a group which may or may not include myself, got together and wrote up a 4e module, it could in fact be pretty darn good.

I'm sure they could, too. So why don't you organize something? Go download the writing guidelines, post them in a thread, start collecting ideas for a given region, and submit them. I would like to see something like this come together, but I honestly don't think you could get enough support to complete all of the work required to put one together.

I know I don't have the time to author at the moment. I've contributed to modules for LG in 3.5 in the past, and that was even a lot of work. But then again, you don't see me complaining about module quality. My biggest beef is with limited play time at convention and retail events. That easily circumvented by playing in registered home events that don't have time deadlines, but you don't get the opportunity to meet and interact with new people which is one of the main reasons why I play Living campaigns.

Tormsskull
2008-12-22, 01:22 PM
No, no thats ok.
Im going to PM you my home address, so that you can come over and beat me in front of my children.
Hopefully then they will learn not to be as stuped as i am

haha! Thank you for the laugh, that was great.


I think the hardest part about defining what system encourages or assists in creating a good roleplaying atmosphere is that different RPG players define roleplaying differently.

Some people think explaining to the GM that their character wants to carefully walk towards the treasure chest constitutes roleplaying. They are envisoning their character in their mind, they are envisoning the room and the treasure chest, and they are envisoning how their character moves from current position to the treasure chest. Therefore, they played the role of their character.

Other people think roleplaying involves many aspects all dedicated to making their character seem alive in the fantasy world as roleplay.

To the first group, systems don't encourage or discourage roleplaying, they just provide mechanics.

To the second group, the first group just doesn't get it, and probably never will.

lisiecki
2008-12-22, 05:27 PM
haha! Thank you for the laugh, that was great.




Thanks

Acually i had looked at the link, and while i know what the group is, at no point on the website dose it say your not alowed to role play.

I also Missed the part of the FAQ when it says what Doom Hats problem with it is.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-22, 05:37 PM
Yeah, the part about the no roleplaying is written in the individual mods. :smallwink:

We kind of went over this on the first page, didn't we?

lisiecki
2008-12-22, 05:39 PM
Yeah, the part about the no roleplaying is written in the individual mods. :smallwink:

We kind of went over this on the first page, didn't we?

True, but from what Doom said I had assumed it was official policy

Thurbane
2008-12-22, 05:42 PM
Thanks
I also got a huge laugh out of your reply to DoomHat. So did my housemate. :smallbiggrin:

DoomHat
2008-12-22, 06:32 PM
True, but from what Doom said I had assumed it was official policy


*calmness edit*

I am sorry to have given that impression somehow. Myself and everyone on the first page discussed, not official policy, but the general mindset and circumstance that drive RPGA events.

Asbestos
2008-12-22, 10:26 PM
I'm sure they could, too. So why don't you organize something? Go download the writing guidelines, post them in a thread, start collecting ideas for a given region, and submit them. I would like to see something like this come together, but I honestly don't think you could get enough support to complete all of the work required to put one together.

I know I don't have the time to author at the moment. I've contributed to modules for LG in 3.5 in the past, and that was even a lot of work. But then again, you don't see me complaining about module quality. My biggest beef is with limited play time at convention and retail events. That easily circumvented by playing in registered home events that don't have time deadlines, but you don't get the opportunity to meet and interact with new people which is one of the main reasons why I play Living campaigns.

Maybe I will, would I do that in the Homebrew forums though?

Also, I think I should add that I'm not attacking the RPGA modules, or rather just the RPGA modules. I was thinking more of KotS than anything else, the 4e launch vehicle that apparently totally sucks.

Even if WotC doesn't accept it, it could be good for playgrounders that are faced with the question of 'getting into 4e, but need a place to start'. Which is, from what I've seen, a good portion of the 4e threads.

My suggestion for a starting point would be an adventure for levels 1-3, in the generic 4e setting, and that isn't just a dungeon crawl. So like... what KotS should have been. Maybe something that uses a lot of the setting's history as well. Stuff about Bael Turath, Arkhosia or like... even the old Minotaur civilization (mentioned in Dragon)

lisiecki
2008-12-23, 01:16 AM
*calmness edit*

I am sorry to have given that impression somehow. Myself and everyone on the first page discussed, not official policy, but the general mindset and circumstance that drive RPGA events.

Yes, every one on the first page made it quite clear they aggree with you on this, and that the point you were going for was not obscure at all.



It's my understanding that 4E's fluff is completely malleable while the Crunch is supposed to keep it fun for everyone.


The players supply the roleplaying, not the system. Simple as that!


I'm curious about this as well. It wasn't elaborated on at all in the OP.


I really don't see your point of view.

Fourth Edition has "RPG" on the cover. Fourth Edition has some flavor details to get things rolling. What else do you need to role-play?



I've never played it myself. In what ways is it better or worse than D&D at facilitating RPing?




What is your overall point?

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-23, 01:39 AM
Yes. Indeed. Obviously, you are entirely right. I concede; your wit, brevity, and sheer mastery of the arts of debate have made it unquestionably clear who is in the wrong, and who is in the right. On behalf of all of us here at the Giant In The Playground forums, I apologise for any confusion which we have unintentionally visited upon you. Please, please accept my profound--nay, abject apologies. All I can say is that we are very sorry, and we will strive to prevent this sorry affair from happening again.

...

Anyway. @Asbestos: Actually, I believe the sequel (H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth) takes place on and in a mountain hollowed out by said minotaur civilization.

@Keld Denar: I certainly didn't mean to insult your friend. I have seen pretty interesting modules (well, okay, one), and the horrible writing guidelines (should you allow any time for roleplaying, or overlong combat encounters--i.e., all of them? Hell no!) probably makes it quite a bit harder. And, as I was saying, the player base has a good deal to answer for as well. And, of course, YMMV. But The Rotting Ruins of Galain is a thoroughly lackluster mod, judged on its own merits and flaws, and I don't need to be a module-writer to see that, any more than I need to be a professional farmer or biologist to say that rotting fruit makes me throw up. I have played it, as well as better modules, and I have DM'd it... as well as better modules. And I've seen it DM'd, by DMs far better and more experienced than I. My verdict, and theirs, and that of their players, and that of my co-players, and that of my players: meh.

While I haven't created any good modules for 4E, I do at least know what they look like. And what they play like, as well. They do exist. It's quite possible that your friend wrote them. But bad ones exist too, and (as far as I have seen, and again YMMV) there are quite a few more of them. That's all I'm saying about mods.

Bosh
2008-12-23, 03:06 AM
One word: Exalted :smalltongue:

Bah! Four words:

Spirit of the Century

The things that I love about it so much is that I can do all the goofy hair brained things that always get me killed in D&D and the system rewards me for doing that :)

Free SRD: http://www.crackmonkey.org/~nick/loyhargil/fate3/fate3.html

DoomHat
2008-12-23, 03:29 AM
My god. A single google search seems to claim it's everything I've ever wanted. D=

Sebastian
2008-12-23, 03:52 AM
Mutants & Masterminds is the game that can do anything well, mechanically. While the concept of generic powers is similar to 4e, it's way on the other end of the spectrum in terms of character customization options.

However, all this is irrelevant to roleplaying, as it's all mechanics.

no, it is not, unless for roleplaying you mean pure fluff-y inconsequential things, like , for example, playing a dwarf talking with a scottish accent and keep saying things like "for Thorin's beard!" every two phrases. But to play thing that are meant to be an effect in game then you should have some mechanics to help you back it up if you don't mean to be purely decorative, if you are playing a character with a crippling phobia of spiders you should have some way to say if he rather to fight the adult red dragon that is chasing him (at 1st level) or escape throught the tiny cave infested with small, harmless, non-poisonous spiders.

lisiecki
2008-12-23, 09:35 AM
Yes. Indeed. Obviously, you are entirely right. I concede; your wit, brevity, and sheer mastery of the arts of debate have made it unquestionably clear who is in the wrong, and who is in the right.

Oh
Ok

Ill be sure to PM my address to you as well.
I am so incredibly sorry that I don't see every one aggreeing on the first page.

All i ask i that when you beat the **** out of me.
Do it on Xmas eve, and be sure to let my daughter watch you curb stomp me
She must be taught to never ask questions
ever

Tormsskull
2008-12-23, 09:54 AM
All i ask i that when you beat the **** out of me.
Do it on Xmas eve, and be sure to let my daughter watch you curb stomp me
She must be taught to never ask questions
ever

Get this guy a show on Comedy Central!:smallbiggrin:

Blackfang108
2008-12-23, 10:23 AM
It's not a binary can/can't deal; just that more non-combat related crunch in a game can help some players to better envision (and better RP) their character...

While I'm not going to dispute that it CAN help, people need to exercise their imaginations more.

I've found that my 4e characters (All 2 of them, both Warlords) are much more distinctive, RP-wise) than the 10+ characters I played in 3.5, even with different skillsets, alignments, races, and classes (Barbarian to Druid).

And the more I read of this thread, the better I feel about my first RPGA experience, last Friday. Everyone RP'd their character well, both my friends, and the people we were playing with. We didn't spend much time on development, but we were able to put some uniqueness on our powers, especially my Halfling's Brash Assault. He doesn't just wack and draw.

He Slices at his opponent and then spins his sword in the air, luring the opponent to making an attack while I'm open, letting the Paladin, Cleric, or Ranger nail him. Bonus points if he's the Paladin's Challenge. :smallbiggrin:

BillyJimBoBob
2008-12-23, 12:13 PM
True, but some systems lend themselves to RP far better than others.

For instance, if the system permits you to sink resources (skills, feats, wealth etc.) into an aspect of your character that has no combat purpose, it can make it easier for some players to help flesh out their character's personality.
Interesting. I no longer attend RP game focused conventions, not from any dislike but simply as a matter of companionship. The ones I attend are primarily table top miniature based. My friends and I play everything from huge mass combat simulations in a variety of settings and time periods, to western setting gun fights, to death races across alien terrain, to steam punk hodge podge scenarios with boys gangs and Captain Nemo-like (Nautilus) watercraft. We, and most of the other players, "role play" the hell out of these games, even though that's not any part of the rules set and even though many of the "characters" we're role playing are nothing more than a collection of combat stats.

It's my experience that role play has absolutely zero to do with the game system, and absolutely everything to do with the players.

lisiecki
2008-12-23, 05:23 PM
Get this guy a show on Comedy Central!:smallbiggrin:

Who's being funny?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHgaC_MApy0&feature=related

its the only way to save the ones i love...


Hey...
Im not the one that started a thread called "disturbing revelations"

Thurbane
2008-12-23, 06:17 PM
It's my experience that role play has absolutely zero to do with the game system, and absolutely everything to do with the players.
Well, as I did say, it can help some players. I've definitely played with people who find it easier to envision their character is there is some (non-combat) crunch on their character sheet to help.

Obviously, many people can do just fine without this to aid them. I briefly played Fighting Fantasy RPG many years ago, and the characters only had 3 stats. I roleplayed these characters just fine. :smallsmile: