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insecure
2008-12-20, 07:04 PM
Elegant Executioner


http://fc95.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/274/9/f/_FirstBlood__by_katfayheirti.jpg

Your death will be swift.
- Aran Lanneon, an Elegant Executioner



***

Reanya swiftly parried the guard's attack, followed up by a punch to to his gut. Knocking him prone, she planted her blade in the guard's throat on his way down, killing him.
....But they weren't alone. Surrounded by three other guards, Reanya enjoyed how the adrenaline rushed, filling her senses with the warmth of victory. Calmly waiting for the next opening, the guards circled Reanya, while she had her defenses up.
....Abruptly, one of the guards launched an attack and felt how it met Reanya's sword. Determined not to give in, he pressed onwards, trying to corner Reanya. Another guard threw himself into the battle, trying to slash her from behind while the last guard just waited, sure that the sudden attack would send Reanya to her demise.
....Clarity filled Reanya's mind as she dodged the blow coming from behind and escaped the clash with the guard in front. The two guards now both confused and dumbfounded, Reanya found herself seizing the opportunity and let her blade slide in between a small hole in one of the guards' leather armor. Blood spilling forth, she smiled wickedly, the guard badly wounded...


***


Did the above text make you think of your normal fighting style? Do you launch intricate attacks and find yourself dodging every other blow to follow up with debilitating strikes catching the enemy off-guard? Then you should consider this PrC. Parrying your foes' swings and thrusts in such ways that leave your opponents off-balance, allowing you to perform severe counter attacks, is what defines the Elegant Executioner. You are a master in battle, throwing off incredible maneuvers and leave your enemies astonished by your immense prowess in the way of the blade. Your blows are swift and your parries nimble, rendering many a combatant terrible crippled by maneuvers they had no chance of foreseeing.

Requirements
BaB: +6
Feats: Combat expertise, Combat reflexes, Weapon finesse
Skills: Balance +9, Bluff +6, Tumble +6

Class skills (4 + int modifier): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Spot, Swim, Tumble

Hit Dice: d8

The Elegant Executioner
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Parry

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Riposte +1d4, Sure step

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Coup fatal

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Riposte +2d4, Flèche

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Abrupt knock-down

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+2|Riposte +3d4, Refugee

7th|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+2|Cunning deflections

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+2|Riposte +4d4, Rapid ruse

9th|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+3|Twisting parry

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+3|Riposte +5d4, Dazzling assault[/table]

Class features:

Weapon Proficiencies: You gain no proficiencies with any weapons or armor.

Parry (Ex): At level 1, an Elegant Executioner has learned how to effectively deflect her opponent's blows. If she is attacked, and has an unexpended attack of opportunity available, she may choose to forgo use of that attack of opportunity for the round and attempt to Parry the attack. To do so, she makes an attack roll herself. If the result exceeds her opponent's attack roll, she negates that attack, effectively making it miss her.

This ability can only be used while wielding a weapon which Weapon Finesse applies to.

Riposte (Ex): At 2nd level, an Elegant Executioner's parries renders her enemies momentarily off-balance and confounded, leaving them open for a telling counter. Upon executing a successful Parry she may, as a free action, follow up with an attack standard action. The Elegant Executioner gains a bonus to the damage roll of such an attack, equal to +1d4/2 levels. The attack granted by this ability does not count as an attack of opportunity.

Attempts at sundering the enemy's weapon can't be done, but a disarm or trip attempt is allowed.

Coup Fatal (Ex): With a flick of her blade, the Elegant Executioner makes sure her enemies don't come back once they've been laid low. Starting at 3rd level, whenever she brings an opponent to 0 HP, or lower, she may take a immediate action to perform a coup-de-grace against that target.

Sure Step (Ex): Stable footing is critical to the Elegant Executioner's success. At 2nd level, she may ignore difficult terrain for the purpose of taking five-foot steps.

Flèche (Ex): You know how to dodge blows even while you charge your opponents. At the time you reach fourth level, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity while charging.

Abrupt knock-down (Ex): At fifth level, an Elegant Executioner learns how to make good use of the momentary loss of balance her enemies suffers from when she parries. She may now add her int modifier to trip attemps made as a riposte.

Refuge (Ex): At 6th level, an Elegant Executioner is so familiar with the art of deflecting blows that she can even block attacks directed at those nearby. She may now also Parry attacks directed at creatures and objects within 5 feet of her.

Cunning deflections (Ex): An Elegant Executioner is an experienced combatant, having no doubt what she should do in a fight. Her mind is skilled at handling difficult situations within a fight and she let her inttelect influence your actions. She may now add your int modifier to your parry rolls.

Rapid ruse (Ex): The Elegant Executioner is trained at feinting her enemies, knowing how to maneuver the sword in deceptive ways. At the time she reaches eight level, she may now feint as a swift action.

Twisting parry (Ex): A ninth level, the Elegant Executioner learns how to twist and turn her blade in such a way that lets her send the foes' weapon to the ground when she deflects their strikes. She may now add her int modifier when making a disarm attempt as a riposte.

Dazzling assault (Ex): Reaching the pinnacle of the class, the Elegant Executioner is one of the most skilled at the art of the blade, slashing at her opponents with the uttermost grace. She may now use her dex modifier instead of her str modifier when dealing damage, disarming, tripping, and attacking.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-20, 07:12 PM
You may want to change Ensured death to a swift action, an immediate action, or a free action that can be taken once per round. Otherwise, you can technically make infinite Coup de Graces in a round, meaning that anyone you CdG is guaranteed to die (because they'll eventually roll a 1 on their fortitude save).

Since most of the class's abilities run off of Nimble Parry, you might want to have each parry expend one attack of opportunity, rather than all of them. That makes it quite a bit more useful, and seems balanced to me.

Other than that, I like this. It's what the Duelist should have been.

insecure
2008-12-20, 07:29 PM
You may want to change Ensured death to a swift action, an immediate action, or a free action that can be taken once per round. Otherwise, you can technically make infinite Coup de Graces in a round, meaning that anyone you CdG is guaranteed to die (because they'll eventually roll a 1 on their fortitude save).

Good catch. Fix'd.


Since most of the class's abilities run off of Nimble Parry, you might want to have each parry expend one attack of opportunity, rather than all of them. That makes it quite a bit more useful, and seems balanced to me.

I don't really know, though. It's pretty powerful to be able to negate all attacks on you, but on the other hand, it's still only melee attacks, and you aren't even sure to parry the attack at all...
But for now, I think I'll make it consume one attack of opportunity per use until someone shows up and says it's too powerful.


Other than that, I like this. It's what the Duelist should have been.

Thanks.:smallcool:

Pie Guy
2008-12-20, 07:52 PM
Make Nimble Parry only work with finnessable weapons. Otherwise people may take one level of the feat rogue varient for all three feats and skills, with int 14, of course. Then the uberchargers can't defend themselves the one time they fail to kill someone.

insecure
2008-12-21, 05:14 PM
Make Nimble Parry only work with finnessable weapons. Otherwise people may take one level of the feat rogue varient for all three feats and skills, with int 14, of course. Then the uberchargers can't defend themselves the one time they fail to kill someone.

Yeah, you might have a point... :smalltongue:

Parry only works with finessable weapons now.

Aergoth
2008-12-21, 05:30 PM
Add bluff to the class skills. Knowing how to feint is just as important as actually fighting. Might want to make it a requirement.

insecure
2008-12-21, 05:35 PM
Add bluff to the class skills. Knowing how to feint is just as important as actually fighting. Might want to make it a requirement.

Oh, I completely missed that. And I'm a fencer myself, even though I admit that this class emphasizes the cinematic form of fighting...

Bayar
2008-12-21, 05:38 PM
This has potential. With a rogue 4/barbarian 3 wielding a spiked chain :smallcool:

You should probably give a special thing at 10th level since I doubt anyone would get all the way to 10 only for a 5d4 riposte.

Edit: or rogue 4 barbarian 2 fighter 1 to help with the feats. Although it will hurt the XP gain.

Knaight
2008-12-21, 05:41 PM
You may want to make parry, in addition to taking up an AoO, only be usable as many times per round as class levels of elegant executioner, to remove dips, maybe adding in infinite parry at level 10. Although as a fencer the lack of a default parry option(or at least adding BAB to AC or something to simulate defense) bothers me. I know that I am way, way harder to hit because of parrying tactics than I would be if I didn't know how to use a weapon decently, or if I'm stuck with a weapon I'm not very good with(which pretty much consists of anything with a chain involved. Flexible weapons and me don't work well together.)

You may also want to give a feat option that let people use normally non-finessable weapons as finessable. For instance someone could pick up a feat and then parry with a staff, which is totally reasonable.

asphen fox
2008-12-22, 11:16 AM
I can't imagine a graceful fighter who's not really good with feinting... Maybe you can add some class features that allow it to feint well? Also, adding something on the 2nd, 8th and 10th level can't hurt much...

Oh yeah.. Add perform (dance) to the class skills... I dunno... for fluff reasons? I mean, he is a graceful person anyways...


Anyways... Love this class. I might make a character with levels in this prc. Two-thumbs up dude!

DracoDei
2008-12-22, 11:28 AM
Although as a fencer the lack of a default parry option(or at least adding BAB to AC or something to simulate defense) bothers me. I know that I am way, way harder to hit because of parrying tactics than I would be if I didn't know how to use a weapon decently, or if I'm stuck with a weapon I'm not very good with(which pretty much consists of anything with a chain involved. Flexible weapons and me don't work well together.

What is it about Fighting Defensively, Total Defense, and Combat Expertise that doesn't do it for you?

Knaight
2008-12-22, 11:48 AM
Combat expertise is good, what bothers me is the lack of a default increasing AC to simulate people getting better at blocking. If you give a fighter in normal clothing a sword their AC is 10+dex, whether they are level 20 or level 1. Combat expertise mitigates this a bit, but people really should get more of an automatic bonus. While hit points do this, they also apply to falls and such, so don't work well.

DracoDei
2008-12-22, 01:39 PM
Ah, gotcha.

insecure
2008-12-22, 03:03 PM
I added some new abilities to level 2, 8, and 10 to reduce the dead level feeling they gave me.

For ease of access:
Sure step (Ex): Being able to control where and how you plant your feet is critical for your success as a fighter. At second level, you may ignore difficult terrain for the purpose of five-foot steps.

Rapid ruse (Ex): You are trained at feinting your enemies, knowing how to maneuver the sword in deceptive ways. At the time you reach eight level, you may now feint as a swift action.

Dazling assault (Ex): Reaching the pinnacle of the class, you can at tenth level perform a dazzling assault once per day. To do that, you must first declare that you will launch such an attack, before you know the outcome of any rolls. Then, make a full-round attack. If you are unable to do so, whether it's by already having used a move or standard action or doing something else, you can't make a dazzling assault. All attack rolls made in the dazzling assault automatically threaten a critical hit if they hit, even if they are outside the normal crit range.

I also added perform to their class skills list and gave them 4 + int skill points per level, instead of 2 + int.

So, are any of those things unbalanced?


Combat expertise is good, what bothers me is the lack of a default increasing AC to simulate people getting better at blocking. If you give a fighter in normal clothing a sword their AC is 10+dex, whether they are level 20 or level 1. Combat expertise mitigates this a bit, but people really should get more of an automatic bonus. While hit points do this, they also apply to falls and such, so don't work well.

I think I'll leave that to whoever are re-writing 3.5e.

Knaight
2008-12-22, 03:14 PM
I think I'll leave that to whoever are re-writing 3.5e.

Yeah. I just use the Fudge simultaneous combat system, which basically boils down to an opposed roll, better roll hits, although there are modifiers and such that complicate it. People don't gain hit points either, and how much damage is done depends on how much the opposed roll is won by. Its an interesting little system.

Flame of Anor
2008-12-22, 10:49 PM
Great class, but...


rendering many a combatant terrible hamstered

...what the heck???

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-22, 10:57 PM
Combat expertise is good, what bothers me is the lack of a default increasing AC to simulate people getting better at blocking.

That what Hit Points are. An 8 HP blow to a first level fighter would pretty much be a blow to the head, but for a tenth level fighter, who probably has around a hundred HP, it would be a solid blow to his shield, or one that knocked him off balance for just a second, or an otherwise powerful strike that only hits the strongest part of his armor.

SilentNight
2008-12-23, 12:21 AM
Very nice, this is indeed what the duelist should have been. It seems pretty balanced to me although some play-testing wouldn't be amiss.

Baron Corm
2008-12-23, 12:57 AM
Ten levels, ten abilities. Seems like a bit much to me. Usually there is just some scaling or improvement at later levels. The way this is set up, it seems like it would be better as a feat chain.

Also, on limiting the number of parryable attacks, I think that the fact that your attack roll has to be higher than theirs is a very good balancer, so keeping it the way that it is is fine. To limit dips, you could make it at a -X (5-15, depending on if you want to use this as additional balance) penalty, +1 per class level.

insecure
2008-12-23, 07:19 AM
...what the heck???

I was tired when I wrote the fluff...
Actually, I noticed it, but decided to not fix it, instead using it as some kind of a test, to see if people actually read the whole thing.:smallwink:

Knaight
2008-12-23, 11:16 AM
That what Hit Points are. An 8 HP blow to a first level fighter would pretty much be a blow to the head, but for a tenth level fighter, who probably has around a hundred HP, it would be a solid blow to his shield, or one that knocked him off balance for just a second, or an otherwise powerful strike that only hits the strongest part of his armor.

Yes, but they also apply to enough other stuff to cheapen that.

Abd al-Azrad
2008-12-23, 12:40 PM
Something I noticed while looking over the class... What build actually qualifies for it at any given reasonable point? Straight Fighter can't before 12th, due to the Balance requirement; straight Rogue, not before 8th due to the BAB (or, fighter 2/rogue 6 for Balance AND BAB). Yes, I suppose Swashbuckler could work, but I kind of imagine most PrCs should be extensions of the core classes.

endoperez
2008-12-23, 05:36 PM
Monk will get in at 9th or so, I think. Flurry of Blows could be used to deal lots of extra damage after a successful parry, but it will also affect attacks of opportunity and thus chance of a successful parry next turn.

The effects of the abilities work for a skilled martial artist, but I'm not sure if the build would be weak or not.

Death's Shadow
2008-12-23, 05:36 PM
The issue with skills requirements can be easily solved, make a feat or a list of feats that grant classes skills. An example could be as simple as....

Cunning Mind
You possible a certain guile, cunning and ruthless attention to detail that makes you more than a match for even the most devious trickster.
Normal: Class skills as prescribed by the PHB or source material.
Benefit: This feat grants the bearer the skills Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy as class skills.

Deft Acrobat
You seem more monkey than civilized being as you perform feats of amazing acrobatic skill that many would think impossible for one of your profession.
Normal: Class skills as prescribed by the PHB or source material.
Benefit: This feat grants the bearer the skills Balance, Tumble and Use Rope as class skills.

... but this is just a suggestion. Awesome Class by the way, I am thinking of running one in my next campaign.

insecure
2008-12-23, 06:05 PM
Monk will get in at 9th or so, I think. Flurry of Blows could be used to deal lots of extra damage after a successful parry, but it will also affect attacks of opportunity and thus chance of a successful parry next turn.

The effects of the abilities work for a skilled martial artist, but I'm not sure if the build would be weak or not.

Keep in mind that you can't use your unarmed strikes to parry, since they ain't finnessable.

Also, would anyone want to playtest it in some way?

Abd al-Azrad
2008-12-23, 06:21 PM
Keep in mind that you can't use your unarmed strikes to parry, since they ain't finnessable.

Yes they are.

"WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls...
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."


Also, would anyone want to playtest it in some way?

Heh, yes, hence why I'm trying to make an NPC who can qualify for it before 8th level.


The issue with skills requirements can be easily solved, make a feat or a list of feats that grant classes skills. An example could be as simple as....

So, we're making up new feats, so we can qualify for the PrC? Doesn't that seem a little backwards?

insecure
2008-12-23, 06:25 PM
Yes they are.

"WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls...
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."

Now I'm just feeling stupid... :smalltongue:

Death's Shadow
2008-12-23, 06:31 PM
Not really to tell the truth, the feats wouldn't just be for the PrC, if you wanted to say play an Wizard or Sorcerer that is deceitful and skilled at trickery then the Bluff skill would be great to possess as a class skill, this is an example of course.

Some feats from the PhB grant ranks in certain skills, so wouldn't be believable to see feats that grant skills as class skills? To tell the truth I just came up with the idea myself while looking at this class.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-23, 07:30 PM
I have a few suggestions, corrections, and revisions you may consider implementing. It's a bit harsh sounding, but I'm just laying it all out technically. I like the class concept a lot, but it could use some refinement.


Parry (Ex): At level 1, an Elegant Executioner has learned how to effectively deflect her opponent's blows. If she is attacked, and has an unexpended attack of opportunity available, she may choose to forgo use of that attack of opportunity for the round and attempt to Parry the attack. To do so, she makes an attack roll herself. If the result exceeds her opponent's attack roll, she negates that attack, effectively making it miss her.

An Elegant Executioner can only Parry attacks while wielding a weapon which Weapon Finesse applies to.


(Why does the current wording for the Parry ability require one to not use their AoOs normally? As a fencer myself, the mentality I was taught was to keep one's eyes open for, and safely take advantage of, any and all openings. Making the class reflect that approach allows for more freedom to adapt to the flow of combat, and gives more of a savy opportunistic feel to the PrC. Personally, I'd like to see something tossed in [possibly as part of the core Parry, or as an advancement of the base ability, renaming it Nimble Parry] that removes the attack penalty to Parry from Combat Expertise. No point in making a prerequisite feat worthless now is there?)


Riposte (Ex): At 2nd level, an Elegant Executioner's parries leave her enemies momentarily off-balance and confounded, leaving them open for a telling counter. Upon executing a successful Parry she may, as a free action, follow up with an attack standard action. The Elegant Executioner gains a bonus to the damage roll of such an attack, equal to +1d4/2 levels. The attack granted by this ability does not count as an attack of opportunity.


Sure Step (Ex): Stable footing is critical to the Elegant Executioner's success. At 2nd level, she may ignore difficult terrain for the purpose of taking five-foot steps.

(Neat enough ability, though I fail to see it's relevance.)


Coup Fatal (Ex): With a flick of her blade, the Elegant Executioner makes sure her enemies don't come back once they've been laid low. Starting at 3rd level, whenever she brings an opponent to 0 HP, or lower, she may take a immediate action to perform a coup-de-grace against that target.

(It's cool, though I dunno if it's worth a level.)


(Flèche (Ex): I do not like this ability, it does not make sense with a class based around an ability to deflect, and counter, incoming blows.)


(Abrupt knock-down (Ex): Useless ability. Giving the class the Improved Trip feat would be better.)


Refuge (Ex): At 6th level, an Elegant Executioner is so familiar with the art of deflecting blows that she can even block attacks directed at those nearby. She may now also Parry attacks directed at creatures and objects within 5 feet of her.


(Cunning Deflection (Ex): I like the fluff, but the mechanics of upping Int in a non-skill based class is off. Between keeping a decent Str, a high Dex, and a good Con, this class will start getting serious MAD.)


(Rapid Ruse (Ex): Okay... so an ability that is like a feat, only ever so slightly better, and not in a way that really has synergy with the other class abilities.)


(Twisting Parry (Ex): This is another useless ability since attacks [such as the one granted by Reposte] can already be made as disarm attempts.)


(Dazzling Assault (Ex): I hate per day abilities, and I dislike how a passive-aggressive class ends up with a purely aggressive capstone. I'm not sure what to suggest in it's stead, but it'd fit better with the other abilities.)

insecure
2008-12-23, 08:06 PM
I have a few suggestions, corrections, and revisions you may consider implementing. It's a bit harsh sounding, but I'm just laying it all out technically.

Don't worry. If I couldn't take critique & criticism, I shouldn't be homebrewing.


Parry (Ex): At level 1, an Elegant Executioner has learned how to effectively deflect her opponent's blows. If she is attacked, and has an unexpended attack of opportunity available, she may choose to forgo use of that attack of opportunity for the round and attempt to Parry the attack. To do so, she makes an attack roll herself. If the result exceeds her opponent's attack roll, she negates that attack, effectively making it miss her.

An Elegant Executioner can only Parry attacks while wielding a weapon which Weapon Finesse applies to.

I like that wording. Gonna use that instead.


(Why does the current wording for the Parry ability require one to not use their AoOs normally? As a fencer myself, the mentality I was taught was to keep one's eyes open for, and safely take advantage of, any and all openings. Making the class reflect that approach allows for more freedom to adapt to the flow of combat, and gives more of a savy opportunistic feel to the PrC. Personally, I'd like to see something tossed in [possibly as part of the core Parry, or as an advancement of the base ability, renaming it Nimble Parry] that removes the attack penalty to Parry from Combat Expertise. No point in making a prerequisite feat worthless now is there?)

Yes, it may seem stupid, but really, how many parries and "attacks of opportunity" do you make when fencing? You can't have your weapon in two places at once, can you?:smallwink:

Also, the pre-requisite feat ain't worthless, since it grants you more attacks of opportunities, and thus more parries.


Riposte (Ex): At 2nd level, an Elegant Executioner's parries leave her enemies momentarily off-balance and confounded, leaving them open for a telling counter. Upon executing a successful Parry she may, as a free action, follow up with an attack standard action. The Elegant Executioner gains a bonus to the damage roll of such an attack, equal to +1d4/2 levels. The attack granted by this ability does not count as an attack of opportunity.

Again, I like your wording. It's nice to have someone edit one's work.


Sure Step (Ex): Stable footing is critical to the Elegant Executioner's success. At 2nd level, she may ignore difficult terrain for the purpose of taking five-foot steps.

(Neat enough ability, though I fail to see it's relevance.)

Once more, gonna use your wording as I prefer the way you put it.


Coup Fatal (Ex): With a flick of her blade, the Elegant Executioner makes sure her enemies don't come back once they've been laid low. Starting at 3rd level, whenever she brings an opponent to 0 HP, or lower, she may take a immediate action to perform a coup-de-grace against that target.

Creeping through the night, he searched for something. Something above the normal. The people safely inside, they had heard he were on the prowl. Slowly, like a drowzing crocodile, he would take what he wanted for himself and leave back nothing. He were renowned, but not as a pleasant man. He were - The Wording-Stealer!


(Flèche (Ex): I do not like this ability, it does not make sense with a class based around an ability to deflect, and counter, incoming blows.)

Where did I state it was a class only focused on defensive maneuvers?:smallwink:
Also, it's an executioner, after all.


(Abrupt knock-down (Ex): Useless ability. Giving the class the Improved Trip feat would be better.)

So, why is it useless? Please, also state your reason. Always state your reason, instead of just coming with a statement without argument.


Refuge (Ex): At 6th level, an Elegant Executioner is so familiar with the art of deflecting blows that she can even block attacks directed at those nearby. She may now also Parry attacks directed at creatures and objects within 5 feet of her.

The mayor stepped up on the rostrum.
"My dear folks," he started, the crowd turning silent.
"Tonight, something terrible happened."
A gasp was heard from the crowd.
"The Wording-Stealer came, again."
Some fainted, some screamed, some cried.


(Cunning Deflection (Ex): I like the fluff, but the mechanics of upping Int in a non-skill based class is off. Between keeping a decent Str, a high Dex, and a good Con, this class will start getting serious MAD.)

Keep in mind that you need at least 13 int to qualify for the class, due to the feats needed.


(Rapid Ruse (Ex): Okay... so an ability that is like a feat, only ever so slightly better, and not in a way that really has synergy with the other class abilities.)

Well, learning how to feint properly was, and is, an important part of the training I receives.


(Twisting Parry (Ex): This is another useless ability since attacks [such as the one granted by Reposte] can already be made as disarm attempts.)

Noticed how the Riposte effect works as a standard attack action?:smallwink:



(Dazzling Assault (Ex): I hate per day abilities, and I dislike how a passive-aggressive class ends up with a purely aggressive capstone. I'm not sure what to suggest in it's stead, but it'd fit better with the other abilities.)

I'm also not very fond of this ability, but I needed some sort of capstone, and I thought I'd try to make it at least a bit cinematic. I also aimed for something playing on the words "Elegant Executioner".

SilentNight
2008-12-23, 11:56 PM
I'm also not very fond of this ability, but I needed some sort of capstone, and I thought I'd try to make it at least a bit cinematic. I also aimed for something playing on the words "Elegant Executioner".

How about giving them an ability that causes all ripostes to automatically threaten a critical for X rounds per day where X is...... I dunno, Dex modifier?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-24, 01:04 AM
1. Don't worry. If I couldn't take critique & criticism, I shouldn't be homebrewing.
1. That's good. Bawb knows that home brewing is hazardous stuff at times. folks can be downright malicious with their assessment.

2. I like that wording. Gonna use that instead.
2. Glad you do.

3. Yes, it may seem stupid, but really, how many parries and "attacks of opportunity" do you make when fencing? You can't have your weapon in two places at once, can you?:smallwink:
3. Me? Not an impressive amount. The guy/gal who's eventually going to be going into melee with the likes of ancient dragons and arch-fiends? They sure as heck better be able to do something impressive. =P

4. Also, the pre-requisite feat ain't worthless, since it grants you more attacks of opportunities, and thus more parries.
4. Combat Expertise is the one that LOWERS your attack bonus (bye-bye ability to effectively Parry) to raise your AC. Thus, it shoots the foundation of the class in the foot. This is why I think that "Parry" attack rolls should be exempt.

5. Again, I like your wording. It's nice to have someone edit one's work.
5. My pleasure to clean up the text for you.

6. Once more, gonna use your wording as I prefer the way you put it.
6. Glad to help.

7. Creeping through the night, he searched for something. Something above the normal. The people safely inside, they had heard he were on the prowl. Slowly, like a drowzing crocodile, he would take what he wanted for himself and leave back nothing. He were renowned, but not as a pleasant man. He were - The Wording-Stealer!
7. Odd mental image, but I'm glad you like it.

8.Where did I state it was a class only focused on defensive maneuvers?:smallwink:
Also, it's an executioner, after all.
8. I should clarify, the mechanic (while neat) does not work with any other ability, as a matter of fact, it negates the ability to Parry AoOs made by foes while passing them. so really, I'd stop taking levels at 7.


9. So, why is it useless? Please, also state your reason. Always state your reason, instead of just coming with a statement without argument.
9. From the start, characters can substitute a trip for a standard attack action. Hence why giving something like the Improved Trip (and possibly an Int bonus on the attempt when using this ability) would be the way to go to accomplish what you are after.


10. The mayor stepped up on the rostrum.
"My dear folks," he started, the crowd turning silent.
"Tonight, something terrible happened."
A gasp was heard from the crowd.
"The Wording-Stealer came, again."
Some fainted, some screamed, some cried.
10. I have no words. :smalltongue:


11. Keep in mind that you need at least 13 int to qualify for the class, due to the feats needed.
11. So... the base contribution of a 7th(?) PrC level ability is +1 (dodge bonus?) to AC? Perhaps one or two more if you have the spare attribute points after the three essential physical ability scores are tallied?


12. Well, learning how to feint properly was, and is, an important part of the training I receives.
12. True. However, since none of the class abilities help you do anything significant with the single cheap shot you get on the target, it's a poor late level addition to the class. something that drops AC for all attacks that turn AND applies Reposte damage however... that's an ability worth taking another level for.


13. Noticed how the Riposte effect works as a standard attack action?:smallwink:
13. Same as before, attack actions can be used to do all these tricks. Each of these special attack traits should be granted bonuses at the player's call. So each of these can be marked under something like Elegant Methods, and chosen like Rogue specials. Keeps the player in charge of how they want to play, works with the fluff of each Executioner having their own style, and it's mechanically sound.


14. I'm also not very fond of this ability, but I needed some sort of capstone, and I thought I'd try to make it at least a bit cinematic. I also aimed for something playing on the words "Elegant Executioner".
14. A cap that adds Dex to damage with Finesse-able weapons would work, for example. Powerful, immense synergy with the other class abilities, and thematically sound.

Hawriel
2008-12-24, 07:43 AM
Its a nice class. The name executioner makes me think of a big guy with a hood and an axe named Three Chop Nick. Nicks not very elegant. Why it takes three chops. Is this class supposed to be a royal hitman who hunts down and executes peaple for the king? Or is this guy supposed to be a flashy Erol Flinn fencer? The name just doesnt fit with me.

The auto crit threat is to much for a full round attack. Especialy sence this type of character would have a rapier that is keen or imp crit feat. Your already giving the class a backstab with every repost.

Speaking of Backstab. Can a player use sneak attack dice on the repost. The fluff sais your apponent is unbalanced. This will lead to players to think that the apponent IS unbalanced and so loses their dex bonus. Is this intended or are sneak attacks not allowed?

Would you like to add uncanny dodge to this class? I know its nicly packed with abilities already, but I would think that it would fit.

How about a Lunge. Its a fencer after all.
Lunge: The Elegant Executioner can make a 5 foot 'charge' attack to an apponent in an adjacent squar. The executioner can add the repost damage dice to the lunge attack on a successful hit. This is a move equivelent action. The lunge provokes an attack of opprotunety.

The ooa can be negated at a higher level.

If bluff is a class skill maybe sence motive should be as well. A crafty swordsmen who relies on intelect should be able to read his apponents intentions.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-24, 07:56 AM
Making Reposte bypass Dex to AC would make it a VERY good PrC for Rogue/Swashbucklers.

SilentNight
2008-12-24, 11:23 AM
Making Reposte bypass Dex to AC would make it a VERY good PrC for Rogue/Swashbucklers.

A little too good. Uncanny dodge is a good idea though.

Abd al-Azrad
2008-12-24, 12:45 PM
A little too good. Uncanny dodge is a good idea though.

I was about to say the same. They already get a sneak-attack-like ability with their ripostes.

I'm starting to worry a bit about this class. They can take a full attack action, then stand still and actively block, then counterstrike. It's like a way better version of the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit fighter. How about a bit of a modification to their abilities, where they kind of enter a "Parrying Stance," thus losing their regular attacks for the round but allowing them multiple parries/ripostes instead?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-24, 03:06 PM
Honestly, it's not such a bad thing going on here. Just about every class ability is passive-aggressive. We're talking a melee combatant that uses Dex (and thus light and/or other weapons that qualify for Finesse) for it's primary stat. If the player is lucky enough to be in a position where they CAN full attack, it's not going to do much. Also, this abilities do not support attacks at a range beyond five feet. So there is no spiked chain machine gunnning going on.

In regards to the off handed suggestion for the capstone, keep in mind that you have 9 PrC levels to take before getting it in addition to however many base class levels as a prereq for the thing.

insecure
2008-12-26, 03:50 PM
Combat Expertise is the one that LOWERS your attack bonus (bye-bye ability to effectively Parry) to raise your AC. Thus, it shoots the foundation of the class in the foot. This is why I think that "Parry" attack rolls should be exempt.

Good point. Maybe, instead of re-making the whole class, we could just swap it with another feat, such as dodge, improved feint, or such? Any good ideas?


I should clarify, the mechanic (while neat) does not work with any other ability, as a matter of fact, it negates the ability to Parry AoOs made by foes while passing them. so really, I'd stop taking levels at 7.

Yeah, I see. Maybe swap it with some kind of the lunge idea proposed earlier?


From the start, characters can substitute a trip for a standard attack action. Hence why giving something like the Improved Trip (and possibly an Int bonus on the attempt when using this ability) would be the way to go to accomplish what you are after.

As usual, you make some damn good points. Also, I'm feeling very stupid right now...:smallwink:

Yeah, I'll make you add your int modifier to riposte-trips instead.


So... the base contribution of a 7th(?) PrC level ability is +1 (dodge bonus?) to AC? Perhaps one or two more if you have the spare attribute points after the three essential physical ability scores are tallied?

Now that it focuses more on int thanks to the change to Abrupt knock-down, I, personally, think it could work. But, yes, it is MAD. But you can still cut a little down on strength and con, I guess.


True. However, since none of the class abilities help you do anything significant with the single cheap shot you get on the target, it's a poor late level addition to the class. something that drops AC for all attacks that turn AND applies Reposte damage however... that's an ability worth taking another level for.

Hey, got an idea. What about swapping combat expertise for improved feint, and at seventh level then let you add riposte damage to your attacks followed by a feint?


Same as before, attack actions can be used to do all these tricks. Each of these special attack traits should be granted bonuses at the player's call. So each of these can be marked under something like Elegant Methods, and chosen like Rogue specials. Keeps the player in charge of how they want to play, works with the fluff of each Executioner having their own style, and it's mechanically sound.

I'll do the same as with Abrupt knock-down, and instead let you add your int modifier.


A cap that adds Dex to damage with Finesse-able weapons would work, for example. Powerful, immense synergy with the other class abilities, and thematically sound.

Yeah, I like that. Gonna use it instead.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-26, 11:24 PM
I'm really not sure what to do about replacing CE. I'll have to dig through the feats to find one that works with the abilities better.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the lunge suggestion. Who posted it?

Not trying to make you feel dumb, bawb knows I overlook stuff like that all the time on my zeal to get an idea done.

I'm still a bit concerned about the MAD issue, but that can be addressed later.

That makes the class abilities work together AND it's thematically sound. I have no complaints.

Again, I'd suggest making which the player gets a choice. Some will want the bonus to tripping first, while others will want to make disarm attempts (though this last one is tricky since two hander strength beasts will win the contested roll every time).

As a previous poster said, it's really strong as a cap. However, since it's a cap for a 10 level PrC, I think it's fair enough.

Hawriel
2008-12-27, 01:37 AM
I'm really not sure what to do about replacing CE. I'll have to dig through the feats to find one that works with the abilities better.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the lunge suggestion. Who posted it?


That would be me. I've been kicking around a lunge feat idea for some time now. I have a swashbuckler consept character I wanted to use it for. This home brew fencer really fit with what I was thinking so I combined the lunge with his repost damage bonus. I also tossed in the uncanny dodge ability. I think all melee based characters should have it. If the barbarian gets it why not the fighter, or at least PRCs that are mobility based melee classes.

I wouldnt worry about MAD that much. Few classes in D&D are really mad in 3rd ed. This is a Dex/Int based class. If the character had a high str he would most likly not be a light blade user. For this class I would make a character with a dex, int, cha, str, con/wis priorety. He would have a str score of 12 maybe 13 for a boost at one of the bonus stats later on.

The CE requierment is very fitting for the consept of the class. The idea behind CE is that the charcter has a greater ability in swordsmen ship. This classes core consept is about being a skilled swordsmen. I would also keep it in because I dont see this type of character wearing heavy armor or using a shield bigger than a buckler. Its a good AC bump when needed.

On trip, faint and disarm. As a player it would be natual for me to pick up at least one of these feats with this class. If dodge is a requierment maybe you can give a +2 bonus to faint, disarm, and trip attemptes for the target of the dodge bonus.

OK I just got off work. I hope this made sence. Im going to stop befor I really do sound incoherient.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-12-27, 12:34 PM
I like the rough idea of the lunge ability, and having it provoke an AoO is even better. That'd provide 2 possible attacks that reposte and theoretical sneak attack apply to. Given how much I like the concept, I think that the ability needs a little bit more refinement. I'll see if I can't mull it over and help clean it up. I'm also for tossing in uncanny dodge and sense motive into the class. It just makes sense. I almost want to push for 6 skill points per level too, but that's just because the fighter's 4 leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I have a hard time not seeing rogues being used as a part of this. Actually, that Daring Rogue feat comes to mind as to how this all works. there's a lot to consider.

ChumpLump
2008-12-28, 02:33 AM
Cunning deflections (Ex): An Elegant Executioner is an experienced combatant, having no doubt what she should do in a fight. Her mind is skilled at handling difficult situations within a fight and she let her inttelect influence your actions. She may now add her int modifier to her parry rolls.


It's what the Duelist should have been.
Agreed.
Also, I see Altair.


Oh yeah.. Add perform (dance) to the class skills... I dunno... for fluff reasons? I mean, he is a graceful person anyways...
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance." ~Confucius


Otherwise I have only to say that I am stealing this and providing it to my table-top gamers... Or perhaps throwing it against them.

Thanks

opakedragon
2009-01-07, 06:28 AM
I really like this PrC! Also, I fully intend to work this into my rogue swash build, especially the gestalt build.