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TempusCCK
2008-12-25, 04:57 AM
Now, I understand the the ToB is widely regarded as the best thing that ever happened to melee characters in 3.5, I.E It brings them up to par with casters.

But, as I read through the ToB I see so many things that are just downright... disturbing. You are a master of the blade, so you can turn invisible and make magic fire happen all the time. Let's face it, some of the things that happen in ToB are downright Anime inspired, some people love this, others think that it would be better without the exploding fiery/shadowy/flying supernatural things that happen.

Now, there are a few things I like about the ToB, one is stances, using superior training, you adapt your fighting style to be suitable for X situation. This is good. But not all the stances are good, especially not the kind that allow you to teleport based solely on the fact that you're standing in a certain way.

So, my thoughts are this. ToB brings melee characters up to par with other characters, but at the expense of the melee classes dignity (as far as I'm concerned). If the intent of the game was to bring Melee classes up to par with caster classes, why not publish a huge errata of caster nerfs that bring them down from the level of massive powergamery? Isn't this just exascerbating the problem?

The easy answer is of course, that Wizards profits from Powergaming, and people can spend money on a book, while the huge errata would not be marketable, which seems to me the most likely case. Supports the ire of all those WotC-haters out there.

Funny side note, I'm reminded of a person here on the forums once saying that he loved the ToB because he loved Anime, and he could just imagine the characters shouting out the names of the manuevers, just like in his favorite non-western cartoons.

lord_khaine
2008-12-25, 05:04 AM
So, my thoughts are this. ToB brings melee characters up to par with other characters, but at the expense of the melee classes dignity (as far as I'm concerned). If the intent of the game was to bring Melee classes up to par with caster classes, why not publish a huge errata of caster nerfs that bring them down from the level of massive powergamery? Isn't this just exascerbating the problem?


as far as i see it, melee chars did not have any dignity to lose, before ToB gave them a bit of it back.
to do it the way you suggest, nerfing casters down instead of buffing the melee chars, would require so much work they might as well scrap the edition and start over.

KnightDisciple
2008-12-25, 05:16 AM
Um....wait, what?
Seriously now. This is pretty weak. The warblade, and to a lesser degree the crusader, are the "pure martial skill" types. Their abilities are, well, various ways of hitting people with swords.
The swordsages, whose flavor expressly mentions mystical abilities/training, are the only ones with access to the shooting fire, going invisible, etc. You did notice the 3/4 bab, right? That's a hallmark of a caster/fighter hybrid. This guy's like a monk, or maybe a psywarrior. He blends the line.
And what's to say wizards and fighters (especially those with tactical feats) can't call out their attacks? Or rogues (see Haley. all the time).
And if there's a little "anime" (read, action comics and animation, both western and eastern), so what? Just tone down the flavor.

Learnedguy
2008-12-25, 05:18 AM
It's really which schools you use. Both the Crusader and the Swordsage are designed to have an otherwordly edge to them. If you want more mundane you go for warblade.

Iron Heart for instance is probably as mundane as it gets.

Drascin
2008-12-25, 05:32 AM
But, as I read through the ToB I see so many things that are just downright... disturbing. You are a master of the blade, so you can turn invisible and make magic fire happen all the time. Let's face it, some of the things that happen in ToB are downright Anime inspired, some people love this, others think that it would be better without the exploding fiery/shadowy/flying supernatural things that happen.

Okay, now try limiting this argument to the other two classes where it isn't explicitly mentioned in their description that the class uses its own energy to power magical effects. Hell, the book mentions that the nickname for Swordsages is "Blade Wizards"! Of course swordsages do some magical stuff - that's the whole point of the class, they're mystical warriors! Crusaders are mostly mundane, with a little helping from their personal guy upstairs at a couple places (so, far less mystical than a paladin, really), and Warblade is as completely nonmagical as it gets.


Now, there are a few things I like about the ToB, one is stances, using superior training, you adapt your fighting style to be suitable for X situation. This is good. But not all the stances are good, especially not the kind that allow you to teleport based solely on the fact that you're standing in a certain way.

Again, Desert Wind/Shadow Hand stances are more mental than physical. It's more attuning yourself to a particular kind of energy than it is standing in a particular way. Plus I don't particularly remember any stance that lets you teleport at will - the most I remember is walking through the air, which seems more a matter of attuning yourself to a particular energy, and then convincing yourself through mental discipline that hey, you are a big boy, you don't really need that pesky ground, do you? :smallamused:


So, my thoughts are this. ToB brings melee characters up to par with other characters, but at the expense of the melee classes dignity (as far as I'm concerned). If the intent of the game was to bring Melee classes up to par with caster classes, why not publish a huge errata of caster nerfs that bring them down from the level of massive powergamery? Isn't this just exascerbating the problem?

The easy answer is of course, that Wizards profits from Powergaming, and people can spend money on a book, while the huge errata would not be marketable, which seems to me the most likely case. Supports the ire of all those WotC-haters out there.

Khaine put it pretty well:

as far as i see it, melee chars did not have any dignity to lose, before ToB gave them a bit of it back.
to do it the way you suggest, nerfing casters down instead of buffing the melee chars, would require so much work they might as well scrap the edition and start over.

Which they did, and lo and behold, many people hate it because casters "can't do anything" :smallbiggrin:. You can't errata over half the stuff in the basic player handbook of a game. It will annoy customers infinitely more than almost any other move you could do, up to and including creating a new edition wholecloth.


Funny side note, I'm reminded of a person here on the forums once saying that he loved the ToB because he loved Anime, and he could just imagine the characters shouting out the names of the manuevers, just like in his favorite non-western cartoons.

And yet I have probably watched a lot more anime than you, and don't particularly feel the need to shout manuever names or anything. Really, ToB is more pure-fantasy-but-goes-Wuxia-in-very-high-levels than Shonen anime at any level, anyway.

Bottom line is: sorry for the sarcastic remarks, CCK, but this really reeks of the usual "psionics is overpowered! psionics is not well-integrated wit the system!" knee-jerk reaction that I've spent so much time smashing my head against, only with ToB instead of Psi, and it just... tires me a lot.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-25, 05:32 AM
Delete all references to "anime" and replace them with "wuxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia)".

Know your roots.

The_Snark
2008-12-25, 05:36 AM
While I don't feel like Tome of Battle was bad for melee characters, I'll point out that there is basis to the supernatural/anime (take your pick) features, and not just for the swordsage. Iron Heart, for example, has Lightning Throw, which lets a character hurl their weapon through thirty feet of air, people, and other flimsy obstacles, and then returns it to them at the end of the round. This is not the product of skilled swordsmanship, except in a wushu-esque setting.

Similarly, Stone Dragon features Earthquake Strike, which could again either be the product of magic—or smashing the ground so hard cracks shoot out, people and buildings fall down, etc. Devoted Spirit is largely supernatural (you can flavor all the healing as a morale effect, but it will feel very contrived and silly sometimes to have a mid-battle exhortation make it unnecessary to be healed afterwards). Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are explicitly very supernatural. Diamond Mind doesn't have anything supernatural, but it could nonetheless fit seamlessly into a wushu setting (especially given some of the standard fluff and maneuver names); Setting Sun is likewise, except that its throws can easily seem unrealistic/supernatural if not carefully described. Tiger Claw falls into the same boat, with rather unrealistic leaping ability. White Raven, in fact, is the most mundane school, in terms of doing unrealistic things.

That said, I don't feel like this is a problem. Yes, even the warblade can have supernatural abilities. If you simply want to be a tough warrior, don't pick those, and describe your maneuvers fittingly. Most schools can have a very wushu/anime style, but they can also fit other archetypes; it's all in how you put it.

As for the supernatural abilities, these are, well, supernatural. If you don't like the idea of someone lighting their sword on fire with pure skill (I generally wouldn't), how about a combination swordsman and fire mage, perhaps descended from a genie of some kind? Add a curved fiery sword, maybe a flying carpet, and you suddenly have a completely different feel from your stereotypical anime. There's nothing inherently wrong with characters who both fight and have supernatural talents or magic.

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-25, 05:36 AM
I get the feeling you only (or mostly) looked at Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit, which are BY FAR the most magical of the disciplines. Read over the othes. Iron Heart in particular, exemplifies pretty much EXACTLY what the fighter should have been able to do, as far as I'm concerned. Diamond Mind is great for making a samurai, as most people think of them, that isn't horrible. White Raven allows you to inspire armies without having to take bard levels, and provides mechanical advantages for having an experienced leader. Sonte Dragon allows you to make the kind of "superhumanly strong" character that was previously impossible to do without actually having a rediculous Strength score.

Seriously, read over all the disciplines before you pass judement on the whole book.

TempusCCK
2008-12-25, 01:32 PM
Devoted, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Dessert Wind, and even some of the White Raven stuff is supernatural, and most of it is quite silly, these are things that I have a problem with, I also take issue with the idea of "bringing melee characters up to par." instead of say, bringing Casters down to the level they were supposed to be at. It stinks of exploiting powergamers, instead of fixing what they messed up to begin with, they offered you a "brand new money-sink book that will make the game work!"

That, to me, is like Blizzard releasing Wrath of the Lich King, but noticing that the new talents aren't functioning like they should, and instead of releasing a patch, they release a brand new Wrath of the Lich King expansion for you to buy, with a fix that will make the new talents work!

As for the idea that it would take more work to fix broken casters, that I vehemently disagree with. What makes casters so much better than everyone else? They can kill faster, and more efficiently, and they have a spell for every situation.

If you released an errata for spells in the Players Handbook alone you could fix much of the Wizard cheese, if Teleport had a 10 round cast time, Walls of stone and Walls of Force appeared in 10 foot sections every round spent concentrating, and Solid Fog gave a strength check to move normally, don't you think the game would function better?

I understand that these are small things, but I literally came up with those simple fixes in about 20 seconds of thought. Also, errata that all Metamagic reducers no longer function, type untyped bonuses for commonly abused spells... This would not be difficult, cruise the Wizards forums, see how people are breaking things, and fix it.

I just have a problem with a company selling me a product, admitting that it's broken, and instead of fixing it, offering to let me buy a fix for their broken product, meanwhile, giving it heavy flavor of something that I'm not personally very interested in.

This wasn't meant to be offensive to anyone who liks anime, and I understand everyone who watches anime doesn't feel the need to shout out the names, I was just sharing an amusing anecdote that I recollected that was relevant to the subject. One person held that opinion, it does not necessarily imply that everyone else does. (I feel kind of dirty for finding it necessary to imply that one person's opinions do not necessarily apply to everyone, I'm sorry, this should be obvious.)

JaxGaret
2008-12-25, 01:38 PM
If you released an errata for spells in the Players Handbook alone you could fix much of the Wizard cheese, if Teleport had a 10 round cast time, Walls of stone and Walls of Force appeared in 10 foot sections every round spent concentrating, and Solid Fog gave a strength check to move normally, don't you think the game would function better?

I understand that these are small things, but I literally came up with those simple fixes in about 20 seconds of thought. Also, errata that all Metamagic reducers no longer function, type untyped bonuses for commonly abused spells... This would not be difficult, cruise the Wizards forums, see how people are breaking things, and fix it.

Just to fix the core spell list would be a huge project, let alone taking on every spell released for 3e. Why don't you try it and see for yourself?

Starscream
2008-12-25, 01:50 PM
Delete all references to "anime" and replace them with "wuxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia)".

Know your roots.

I agree. Combine ToB with some of the material from Oriental Adventures and you have the makings of a fine Martial Arts themed campaign. Anime doesn't need to come into it.

monty
2008-12-25, 02:01 PM
the most I remember is walking through the air, which seems more a matter of attuning yourself to a particular energy, and then convincing yourself through mental discipline that hey, you are a big boy, you don't really need that pesky ground, do you? :smallamused:

Maybe it's just my inner (and outer) nerd, but I always thought of that stance as throwing yourself at the ground and missing.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-25, 02:22 PM
Just some things to think about.

Players, as a general rule, enjoy having power. The players know this, the Dungeon Master knows this, and, guess what? WotC knows this as well. Thus, for everyone involved, it is better to increase the power of sub-par classes rather than decrease the power of the top tier classes.

As a player who often plays the tank in a party of casters, it cheered me and the whole party up no end when I could suddenly pull my weight as a Crusader rather than struggle with a one-trick Fighter. Had the DM nerfed the casters, I imagine the general glee would have been noticeably absent...from all of us. I don't like to see my entire party become less competent just to make me competitive with the rest of them.

That said, some aspects of the Tome do have a decidedly Wuxia feel to them...at least out of the box. But that's all mutable flavor. Let's take a look at some of the big offenders (from Diamond Mind, although I'll do any you care to ask about).

Hearing the Air: Having spent over 10 years as a competitive fencer, let me say that you can indeed hear attacks coming if you're attuned to it. Your opponent's footwork and breathing change enough that you can fence, albeit not as well, blindfolded. Maybe it's not out to 30ft, but class abilities are never entirely realistic (do you really think a commander's presence makes me more charismatic? The Marshal is inclined to say it does...).

Mind Over Body: Intense focus does strange things. My favorite story (again fencing related) is the Russian sabre fencer who took a cut across the hand, kept fencing, and won the bout. When he raised his weapon to salute, blood poured out from under his glove, and it has revealed that the blow had almost slashed his hand to the bone...and had gone unnoticed, as it hadn't affected his fencing. Fun times.

Time Stands Still: Maybe you move really fast, but maybe you just have a better chance of hitting. Not all those attacks are going to hit, so re-flavoring it as being more accurate would be great. If fighting a crowd, treat it like a Whirlwind Attack style of action. Done.

See? All possible, if maybe a bit more than any human alive today could do. But that's all cool, since even our best heroes weren't much past level 6 or so. Maybe there are a few exceptions to that rule, but not many. Plus, in a world where a mage can re-write reality with a few words and magic infuses all aspects of life, including natural evolution, what's to say that a sufficiently trained fighter can't move so fast he's a blur, or hit stone hard enough to cause a small earthquake?

But if you really don't like to see that, ToB is a book of mechanics. Re-flavor them to your heart's content, and the problem vanishes.

hiryuu
2008-12-25, 02:33 PM
So basically, it boils down to the idea that a man in a bathrobe jumping up and down (he's got to be doing something crazy, leather armor interferes with his movements. Leather armor!) and wiggling his fingers while using items that amount to bad inside jokes (look at some of those spells components!) and blabbering incoherently in a precise method as a result of difficult training and then setting some fool on fire isn't silly but a guy who trained just as hard to cut some sucka just right is? We're already dealing with a world where rainbows shooting out of your fingers is one of your best options out of the starting gate, and there's something silly about leaping through the air to cut someone with fire?

What kind of wacky, upside down world is this? Oh yeah, it's a world were reading books, training hard enough, or even just wishing hard enough lets you mutilate the rules of physics.

We're talking about a milieu where humans can turn into bears that shoot lightning and summon other bears that are covered in bees and where you can tie up some of the weakest members of the local thief guild in a concrete outhouse with a delayed blast fireball strapped to the inside of their shoe and they stand a reasonable chance of being completely unscathed... and you have a problem with ToB?

Please.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-12-25, 03:20 PM
*addresses*


Now, I understand the the ToB is widely regarded as the best thing that ever happened to melee characters in 3.5, I.E It brings them up to par with casters.

It doesn't bring them up to par at the "broken" levels. Batman will still flatten a ToB character like an insect at higher levels.


But, as I read through the ToB I see so many things that are just downright... disturbing. You are a master of the blade, so you can turn invisible and make magic fire happen all the time. Let's face it, some of the things that happen in ToB are downright Anime inspired, some people love this, others think that it would be better without the exploding fiery/shadowy/flying supernatural things that happen.

To be fair, they specifically mention that ToB was part inspired by anime.

Also to be fair, as someone mentioned previously, the only really out and out supernatural class is the Swordsage, who are called blade wizards. The other two can pull off some superhuman stuff, but they're more rooted in the "trained REALLY, REALLY hard" category. (Well, Swordsage is too, I suppose.)


Now, there are a few things I like about the ToB, one is stances, using superior training, you adapt your fighting style to be suitable for X situation. This is good. But not all the stances are good, especially not the kind that allow you to teleport based solely on the fact that you're standing in a certain way.

Again, almost all of that stuff is Swordsage, who have a very mystical bent.


So, my thoughts are this. ToB brings melee characters up to par with other characters, but at the expense of the melee classes dignity (as far as I'm concerned). If the intent of the game was to bring Melee classes up to par with caster classes, why not publish a huge errata of caster nerfs that bring them down from the level of massive powergamery? Isn't this just exascerbating the problem?

Not really. ToB isn't really supposed to replace melee characters (it does a lot, but I don't think the writers had that in mind).

Besides, publishing massive amounts of errata would be incredibly complicated and confusing.


The easy answer is of course, that Wizards profits from Powergaming, and people can spend money on a book, while the huge errata would not be marketable, which seems to me the most likely case. Supports the ire of all those WotC-haters out there.

Huh?


Funny side note, I'm reminded of a person here on the forums once saying that he loved the ToB because he loved Anime, and he could just imagine the characters shouting out the names of the manuevers, just like in his favorite non-western cartoons.

Again, it was inspired by anime, though most of the maneuvers are in my opinion, not anime-named. There are a few, though. (I'm looking at you, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.)

Innis Cabal
2008-12-25, 03:35 PM
*Snip*


So. What your saying. In the end mind you. Is that you don't like the fact that ToB is based off of western comics, Wuxia and anime. Which it says...on the very first page.

There is an option of not buying the book. Which if I personally didn't care for the above. I'd not have done. I myself have not bought alot of books I don't like the flavour.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-25, 04:35 PM
If you released an errata for spells in the Players Handbook alone you could fix much of the Wizard cheese, if Teleport had a 10 round cast time, Walls of stone and Walls of Force appeared in 10 foot sections every round spent concentrating, and Solid Fog gave a strength check to move normally, don't you think the game would function better?

I understand that these are small things, but I literally came up with those simple fixes in about 20 seconds of thought. Also, errata that all Metamagic reducers no longer function, type untyped bonuses for commonly abused spells... This would not be difficult, cruise the Wizards forums, see how people are breaking things, and fix it.

I just have a problem with a company selling me a product, admitting that it's broken, and instead of fixing it, offering to let me buy a fix for their broken product, meanwhile, giving it heavy flavor of something that I'm not personally very interested in.



See, I think I have your same feelings about it. These things you said can be connected to the various threads about losing of "magic is special" in 4th edition, casters overpowered and so on, all hings we have seen several times on these boards.

IMHO, the whole tome of battle could have far more sense if all the maneuvers were supernatural abilities. It's a matter of coherency with EVERY other element of the game. You can explain this if you see ToB as a sorta beta of 4th edition (an a big advertisement fo 4th edition). But coherency and PC rules = NPC rules is a policy abandoned by wizard. Someone likes it, some one not, nothing wrong.

sonofzeal
2008-12-25, 05:04 PM
IMHO, the whole tome of battle could have far more sense if all the maneuvers were supernatural abilities. It's a matter of coherency with EVERY other element of the game. You can explain this if you see ToB as a sorta beta of 4th edition (an a big advertisement fo 4th edition). But coherency and PC rules = NPC rules is a policy abandoned by wizard. Someone likes it, some one not, nothing wrong.
To be fair, a lot of them ARE supernatural abilities (decent odds on any given Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, or Shadow Hand maneuver), and a lot of the others SHOULDN'T be (like most maneuvers in the other categories, with some exceptions). They seemed to have erred on the side of "not supernatural", and I'd understand if you made considerably more of them Su (Iron Heart Surge, Sudden Leap, Iron Bones, and Disrupting Blow are all good canditates). However, reading through most of the Warblade disciplines, it's actively hard to find ones that don't make sense as Ex. The three disciplines mentioned above are the only ones with a significant number of supernatural maneuvers.

Heliomance
2008-12-25, 05:09 PM
My DM disallows ToB for very similar reasons. Why is it that after you've used a specific maneuver, you can't use it again straightaway? What's so special about hitting someone that you can't hit them again the same way?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-25, 05:19 PM
My DM disallows ToB for very similar reasons. Why is it that after you've used a specific maneuver, you can't use it again straightaway? What's so special about hitting someone that you can't hit them again the same way?

Because, as any practitioner of any martial art will tell you, timing, position, and your opponent's reactions are all crucial to getting off that specific blow. It's not mechanically supported, but that 1 or 2 round delay between both your Strikes of Preternatural Clarity is used to set up the next devastating blow. Maybe your opponent is better guarded against that line of attack, opening themselves up for a crushing Ancient Mountain Hammer that sweeps past all their defenses and sends them sprawling, or a veritable Adamantine Hurricane of blows to penetrate their guard.

Think of the combat as an actual fight and less of a game, and mix up your maneuver uses, and you have no need to complain about the mechanics. In fact, I'd find is LESS realistic if the same move could be used round after round after round.

Satyr
2008-12-25, 05:56 PM
The slightly annoying part about TOB is, that it offers lots of flashy special moves, while the standard D&D combattant is still not able to learn basic things like evaluate targets, called shots or hurting his opponent in a way that, you, know hurts. If the D&D rules had more gruesome rules for injuries, or a broader set of plausible, basic combat options, the whole set of flashy special abilities wouldn't be necessary. But since it is imposible to do anything that hinders an opponent without magic, this is obvioulsy not the case. The odd zthing is, there are even rules for the effects, but they are only accessible trough magic, which is just plain stupid.

Rion
2008-12-25, 06:12 PM
Then how would you explain that I think ToB is the best book released for 3.5 while I hate anime?

The most unrealistic thing about combat in 3.5 isn't that ToB classes can pull flashy moves (nor the usual reasoning that "wizards exist, magic is real and you complain about that?"), but that some guy hacking wildly trading accuracy for power isn't cut down in under two seconds (not an exaggeration by the way).

Any guy with reasonable training in western renaissance martial arts (Talhoffer and Lichtenauer) would be capable of cutting down your average D&D Barbarian in real life.

EDIT: This is of course assuming unarmoured combat, but it isn't much better in armoured conbat where the only way to defeat an opponent would be in a grapple or with piercing weapons at weak points (poleaxes and real warhammers, what most call "picks").

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-25, 07:44 PM
But, as I read through the ToB I see so many things that are just downright... disturbing. You are a master of the blade, so you can turn invisible and make magic fire happen all the time. .

kinda like being a master of hand to hand combat and being able to resist enchantment and teleport short distances. or master of performance and beign able to learn healing spells.

yes it's wuxia/anime inspired. (some of the designers might have been ninjascroll fans others might be riki-o fans, others still into older samurai or wire-fu stuff. multiple people not attibutign a favoritism w/o knowing the people)
yes it offers something more than non-rogue meleers had, the system needed it.
yes magic is still more powerful. its friggin magic. the answer "a wizard did it" should answer any possible unexplained act of god. 4e seems to miss this but rituals may in time offer it, but for now 3.5 still has magic being really magical.


but its fun and flavorful even when it isnt that awe inspiring firey blast at early levels.

TempusCCK
2008-12-26, 05:41 AM
As I've said before, I do not like the anime aspect of it, that is a personal opinion. What I do not like more though, is that Wizards asked me to pay to fix something that was broken because they messed it up.

So far, I have seen no credible argument to disagree with me on why releasing an errata of simple fixes would be difficult, yes, it may be time consuming, but impossibly so? Not a chance, most of the fixes are simply common sense when you look at them.

As for the argument "Go do it yourself." That idea is inherently flawed because I have a life, and I do not get paid to spend 8 hours a day making D&D products, if I were, then I would be able to reasonably fix the entire players handbook in a relatively short amount of time, or at least seriously cut down on many of the abuses. I've actually considered gutting my version of the players handbook myself with a pen and fixing all the spells in the way that would work reasonably, but that would ruin it as a reference for many things, so if I ever get my hands on a spare copy, I may well do it.
As for now, I'm not the one charging people to fix the game that I didn't create right to begin with.

"New! Monopoly WotC Edition! Picking the Cannon grants you the ability to forcefully take property from other players! Want to give the others teh ability to resist? Buy the New Monopoly WotC Edition Game Suppliment!"

It's a crock.


Because, as any practitioner of any martial art will tell you, timing, position, and your opponent's reactions are all crucial to getting off that specific blow.

I also find a reason to disagree with this argument based on the idea that if you want to bring timing, positioning and opponents reactions into the reason why you can't repeat a manuever, then what the hell was he doing differently the first time you used it? The system simply doesn't model that excuse. The ONLY reason you can't use manuevers over and over is game balance, pure and simple. I sympathize with this idea to an extent, but don't go grasping straws where there are none. I can understand being especially wary of a tactic already used against you, but if you encounter the same opponent in a different combat, can't you use the same manuever, regardless of his wariness?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-26, 05:49 AM
EDIT: Thought of a better argument. Like everything else in D&D mechanics, the maneuver recovery system is an abstraction. No, the system doesn't model positioning and focus and whatnot; that's why there's this cheesy unrealistic ad hoc method for doing it. Just like HP. Those don't make any damn sense either.

As for WotC ripping you off...uh, yeah. It's what they do. Their whole business model is "put it in a supplement". Personally, if I didn't already have all these D&D books from when I was younger and more foolish, I probably wouldn't even play the game because of the bloated and expensive product line.

Aquillion
2008-12-26, 06:15 AM
As I've said before, I do not like the anime aspect of it, that is a personal opinion. What I do not like more though, is that Wizards asked me to pay to fix something that was broken because they messed it up.

So far, I have seen no credible argument to disagree with me on why releasing an errata of simple fixes would be difficult, yes, it may be time consuming, but impossibly so? Not a chance, most of the fixes are simply common sense when you look at them.WotC likes the moneys. There is nothing terribly complicated to explain here. (However, it might be worth pointing out that balancing things while keeping them fun is actually a lot of work involving employees and testers who have to be paid; it's not that unreasonable that they'd charge for major changes of the sort you're requesting.)

WotC has people paid to spend 8 hours a day making D&D products because you pay for the results of that work. If you don't want them to charge for the results of that work, how exactly are they supposed to continue to pay those employees?

They're not under any obligation to keep fixing their old books for free (and it would be a fairly insane business model, if they had to seriously invest rebalancing their old books with no further returns -- metagame balance can take ages to evolve. This is part of the reason they're so eager for a subscription-style setup.) If that annoys you, stop buying stuff from them; you're not exactly the first person to get that annoyed at them.

And they did, in fact, release a book that contained nerfed caster-classes. That's pretty much the Tome of Magic in a nutshell. It contains a bunch of low-power-level casters, so players can choose to either use the ToB to buff fighter-types, or the ToM to nerf casters.

The ToB was more successful, primarily because most people enjoy having a wide variety of abilities and options to choose each round and a wide variety of ways to customize and represent their chosen character over declaring "I charge and full-power-attack the nearest goblin" over and over again every turn. But YMMV, and if you'd rather take the other route, the ToM is always an option.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-26, 07:00 AM
I support your points fully, Aquillion, but I do think that WotC could put a bit more effort into playtesting their releases beforehand, especially core books. I wouldn't object to D&D's massive library if they didn't have a habit of spreading out important game-balancing things over a myriad of unrelated products.

This is the part where I fanboy over M&M and its communist point-buy system, as well as their honesty in telling you "we just put <insert power or option> in here for completeness's sake. Consider it unavailable by default, unless you want to play with the game balance in weird ways, or give an NPC a leg up."

kalt
2008-12-26, 09:47 AM
As someone that has avidly used tome of battle I can tell you that it tends to make a fighteresque character much more enjoyable to play if you enjoy adding another layer of complexity. Yes it does make melee characters more powerful and does bring them more in line with the magic users in terms of power.

Clementx
2008-12-26, 10:11 AM
Just to fix the core spell list would be a huge project, let alone taking on every spell released for 3e. Why don't you try it and see for yourself?

Already did it. The majority of it is just throwing out crap spells that were not well-written! Core was all about removing the most abusive Batman spells, or tweaking them to limit the abuse. It took about 5 hours to go through the Spell Compendium- 1000 spells, with about 30 seconds each spell. "Is the effect stupid or cross existing boundaries? Is this broken compared to other spells of the level or a well-scaled version of a lower-level one?" I ended up keeping about 300 of them. If the writer didn't take any effort making the spell, why should you sweat fixing a hopeless case?

I found trying to incorporate ToB to be more work. After all, it is really learning new Fighter spells, instead of fixing what you already have.

Talya
2008-12-26, 10:21 AM
I generally despise anime.

I'm not even a big fan of Wuxia, in general (although I've appreciated a few of them.)

I love the Tome of Battle.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 11:28 AM
I think Tome of Battle is brilliant, and since it seems to be relevant to the thread: my taste in anime is of the psychological genre, rather than the typical shonen superheroes/superpowers, and I quite often find wuxian a bit silly :smallwink:.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:31 AM
Personally, I find the mechanics in the Tome of Battle not to my liking. I've also had a long series of bad run-ins with ToB characters, so I am rather soured on the whole deal. I respect it, but merely don't use it. *shrug* It's a matter of taste, nothing more.

Ecalsneerg
2008-12-26, 11:39 AM
So basically, it boils down to the idea that a man in a bathrobe jumping up and down (he's got to be doing something crazy, leather armor interferes with his movements. Leather armor!) and wiggling his fingers while using items that amount to bad inside jokes (look at some of those spells components!) and blabbering incoherently in a precise method as a result of difficult training and then setting some fool on fire isn't silly but a guy who trained just as hard to cut some sucka just right is? We're already dealing with a world where rainbows shooting out of your fingers is one of your best options out of the starting gate, and there's something silly about leaping through the air to cut someone with fire?

What kind of wacky, upside down world is this? Oh yeah, it's a world were reading books, training hard enough, or even just wishing hard enough lets you mutilate the rules of physics.

We're talking about a milieu where humans can turn into bears that shoot lightning and summon other bears that are covered in bees and where you can tie up some of the weakest members of the local thief guild in a concrete outhouse with a delayed blast fireball strapped to the inside of their shoe and they stand a reasonable chance of being completely unscathed... and you have a problem with ToB?

Please.

This whole post is seconded. Dammit, the monk class is guilty of all these complaints against ToB, but doesn't seem to get in the neck nearly as much. Training so hard that you become an otherwordly being? Running at superhuman speed? Hitting people really really fast and hard (in theory)? Hey, you could describe this as both ToB and Monk, because in my opinion all ToB is is the monk class made effective.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 11:42 AM
*snip the reality rant*
That was one of the more amusing things I've read in a while, I'd give you a cookie sir but I'm fresh out of smilies.

Thurbane
2008-12-26, 12:45 PM
Delete all references to "anime" and replace them with "wuxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia)".

Know your roots.
Most of ToB is more wuxia than anime, but some is definitely more anime than anything else (Inferno Blast = DBZ) :smalltongue:

http://i44.tinypic.com/1zxpqva.jpg

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-26, 01:50 PM
My DM disallows ToB for very similar reasons. Why is it that after you've used a specific maneuver, you can't use it again straightaway? What's so special about hitting someone that you can't hit them again the same way?

Speaking as an RL martial artist, this is extremely realistic. You might get away with a fancy maneuver against a skilled opponent. Once. Your opponent would likely be watching for a repeat, having witnessed your maneuver, knowing now where it comes from, and likely knowing it's weak points based on how the maneuver was executed.

If you try to get too fancy against someone who actually has a clue about what he is doing, you might get by with it once, maybe even twice, but the third time, he's going to use the maneuver against you, and you'll end up out cold.

Also, some of the maneuvers are pretty intensive. YOU try doing ten 'jump-back-spinning-heel-kicks' in a row and see how YOU like it. There's a reason why most serious martial artists end up finishing their bouts with simple white-belt maneuvers (assuming they're not just showing off for the audience/camera). Because they are the 'bread and butter' of any martial artist's repitoire. They're generally the most reliable, the quickest, easiest to execute, and thus hardest to defend against. And because they're not nearly as exhausting to perform.

Take for example, my signature move was a simple side kick. Which I could execute from a distance of about six inches, and still deliver bone-breaking force (if I wanted to, I could also pull the force for sparring). My favorite counter was a simple flip kick (front snap kick from front foot in back stance), while leaning back, under a spin or heel kick aimed at my head. I end up catching them in the 'cup'. It looks like something out of wuxia, because I end up with my body almost perpendicular to my stationary leg, which is horridly vulnerable to a sweep if he manages to fake me out.

Also, in combat, time has a way of seeming to 'slow down'. When you get into 'the zone', and your adrenaline is pumping, you can pull some stuff that looks to onlookers to be amazing. You often don't realize you've done something unusual until afterwords when you see what you just did on a video.

I've seen Kempo users land LITERALLY over twenty strikes in under half a minute. We recorded it on video. We had to go frame-by-frame to count them.

I have, personally, kicked someone hard enough that they flew over four feet before landing. And that person, after a half minute or so, got back up, dusted himself off, and came back for more. How? Simple, it's called 'rolling with a blow'. He actually jumped back, stealing a good deal of the force of my kick, and landed properly so as to avoid damage on the fall.

This is all completely realistic, although it looks cinematic to onlookers.

Now take these fantasy characters, who really ARE 'larger than life'. 'Time Stands Still', to me, is extremely realistic. I've practically done it before, moving so fast, so fluidly, that it seemed like I was in a Benny Hill short. Mind Over Body... I've finished a Tournament in which I had a broken rib. I didn't feel the pain (until afterwords), I was just confused as to why that side wasn't working as well. Hearing the Air... been there, done that.

As has been said, a Warblade's maneuvers are mostly very realistic (except maybe Iron Heart Surge), as he is supposed to be the one most based on pure skill and training. A Swordsage is supposed to be mystical, just like the D&D monk. If you don't have a problem with DimDoor as an SLA for the base Monk, why for the Swordsage?. A Crusader is supposed to have divine influence. You don't seem to mind a Paladin doing supernatural things, why not a Crusader?

TempusCCK
2008-12-26, 02:25 PM
Mm, I was going to go on a rant and say some of the things that I dislike, again, but the point is clear. I've admitted I like some things in ToB, but I do not like much of the flavor, that is mostly it. Sure flavor can be changed, but in package, much of it is simply unusble to me, mostly because I see many big companies trying to cash in on the anime market. So not only is it something that I don't really like, but it's becoming increasingly more commercialized too.

The only decent response I've gotten back from it is "WotC is greedy a-holes." Great, doesn't change the fact that ToB is, to me, pretty much void of all worth because of the fact it's trying to make me pay for something I should have had in the beginning. It's spiteful and neurotic, sure, but that's how I feel.

At Shneekey- Again I refer to the argument that in D&D, if you were to encounter the same opponenet again in a different "encounter" then you would be fully able to use all your moves, via the rules. D&D doesn't model specific instances like that or take into account that a fighter may be prepared for that specific move again.

wadledo
2008-12-26, 02:35 PM
Mm, I was going to go on a rant and say some of the things that I dislike, again, but the point is clear. I've admitted I like some things in ToB, but I do not like much of the flavor, that is mostly it. Sure flavor can be changed, but in package, much of it is simply unusble to me, mostly because I see many big companies trying to cash in on the anime market. So not only is it something that I don't really like, but it's becoming increasingly more commercialized too.

The only decent response I've gotten back from it is "WotC is greedy a-holes." Great, doesn't change the fact that ToB is, to me, pretty much void of all worth because of the fact it's trying to make me pay for something I should have had in the beginning. It's spiteful and neurotic, sure, but that's how I feel.

At Shneekey- Again I refer to the argument that in D&D, if you were to encounter the same opponenet again in a different "encounter" then you would be fully able to use all your moves, via the rules. D&D doesn't model specific instances like that or take into account that a fighter may be prepared for that specific move again.

Even you have to realize, it is far easier to put something out than it is to take something away.
If you wanted to change spellcasting, you would have to go through every book, every novel, every online database, and change it, which would take thousands of man hour, if not more.
This is a company we are talking about here.
If I said that we could change the magic system, but we would cut off a few of your fingers and steal your TV, would you say yes?
You would get another TV, and fingers are easy to come by, but really, would it be worth it to make you and the other 15 people who seem to think the way you do happy?:smallconfused:

ericgrau
2008-12-26, 02:43 PM
O.P. got the gist of it.

But the real reason wasn't just to sell books, it was also to test out 4e concepts. Fighters in 4e are just as "anime". In a sense they did fix the core stuff; they just didn't implement it in core until the later edition. It doesn't really increase the power martial classes so much as give them more interesting things to do, which is the real issue between the martial and the casters.

Now do I like all this anime/power/whatever-you-call-it stuff? Nope, not at all. I'd rather play 3.5e and add interesting options via more realistic means. I know it's just a game and you suspend some disbelief, but IMO ToB and 4e strain disbelief past the breaking point. At least blame it on chi flow or something. Sheesh. But if you like abilities that sound cooler when shouted out and would rather look at cool new powers than learn more about the old less exciting-sounding special attacks and mobility skills, I have no problem with that. Heck, I'll play with you if I'm bored enough. Then ToB or 4e is right for you.

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:55 PM
O.P. got the gist of it.

But the real reason wasn't just to sell books, it was also to test out 4e concepts.


I don't see this.

When I saw Tome of Battle for the first time, I got excited about 4th edition. I figured this (combined with Star Wars Saga Edition -- the best implementation of D20 rules ever) was the direction 4e was going.

However, while ToB added incredible amounts of versatility to character design, 4e took all that away.

Morty
2008-12-26, 03:03 PM
I've got nothing about Tome of Battle, although I don't worship is like many people here.
However, the hype it gets as 100% replacement for core melee classes got aggravating really quick.

Talya
2008-12-26, 03:08 PM
However, the hype it gets as 100% replacement for core melee classes got aggravating really quick.

I can't make a TOB-based character without multiclassing.

It's not that the characters aren't good enough on their own...its that they multiclass so well that they make me WANT to multiclass them. So usually my warblade has several levels of a few core classes, too.

Aquillion
2008-12-26, 03:11 PM
Already did it. The majority of it is just throwing out crap spells that were not well-written! Core was all about removing the most abusive Batman spells, or tweaking them to limit the abuse. It took about 5 hours to go through the Spell Compendium- 1000 spells, with about 30 seconds each spell. "Is the effect stupid or cross existing boundaries? Is this broken compared to other spells of the level or a well-scaled version of a lower-level one?" I ended up keeping about 300 of them. If the writer didn't take any effort making the spell, why should you sweat fixing a hopeless case?I don't know about that... I can't see it. Not without removing entire schools or something. A good enough DM can keep players from overshadowing each other, but that's different from having a fixed syste, and I can't accept that you were able to 'fix' wizards vs. fighters simply by removing broken effects.

The problem with wizards is not a few broken effects, the problem is the whole damn system. Wizards get exponentially more powerful with every level, gaining entirely new ways to interact with the game; fighters just get a bit more damage. Short of limiting wizards to blasting or altering their spell progression to cut out higher-level spells I do not see how you can easily bridge that gap.

I assume you removed the Teleport and Polymorph lines. Did you take out every save-or-die? The battlefield alteration spells that can render combat unimportant? The buffs that are often worth more than a classes' core features when they're in effect?

That's why, when WotC did try to fix spellcasters, they did it by introducing entirely new lower-power classes for casters, and entirely new higher-power classes for fighter-types.


I support your points fully, Aquillion, but I do think that WotC could put a bit more effort into playtesting their releases beforehand, especially core books. I wouldn't object to D&D's massive library if they didn't have a habit of spreading out important game-balancing things over a myriad of unrelated products.Well, to be fair, when you get down to it... druids aside, most of the really broken things in core are 'legacy' effects left over from earlier editions. (And druids give the sense that they were balanced around those legacy effects, making them broken for the same reason, too.) There was clearly an effort to keep as many 2e spells as possible, because that's what they assumed the player base wanted (and if you look at the reaction to 4e, it's clear much of the player base did want it.) The basic magic system was the same way.

Not that they couldn't have done more to balance it, but they were working under odd constraints... when they finally said 'screw it' and dumped much of the legacy stuff, they produced a much more balanced system, at least. Whatever else we say about 4e, that much is undeniable.

Artanis
2008-12-26, 03:12 PM
Most of ToB is more wuxia than anime, but some is definitely more anime than anything else (Inferno Blast = DBZ) :smalltongue:

I disagree on the grounds that Inferno Blast does not have a 10 session chargeup time :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2008-12-26, 03:32 PM
I don't see this.

When I saw Tome of Battle for the first time, I got excited about 4th edition. I figured this (combined with Star Wars Saga Edition -- the best implementation of D20 rules ever) was the direction 4e was going.

However, while ToB added incredible amounts of versatility to character design, 4e took all that away.

Interesting. I was going on WotC's very own claims when I said that. I can only guess why 4e cut out the versatility; maybe it was simplicity?



Well, to be fair, when you get down to it... druids aside, most of the really broken things in core are 'legacy' effects left over from earlier editions. (And druids give the sense that they were balanced around those legacy effects, making them broken for the same reason, too.) There was clearly an effort to keep as many 2e spells as possible, because that's what they assumed the player base wanted (and if you look at the reaction to 4e, it's clear much of the player base did want it.) The basic magic system was the same way.

Not that they couldn't have done more to balance it, but they were working under odd constraints... when they finally said 'screw it' and dumped much of the legacy stuff, they produced a much more balanced system, at least. Whatever else we say about 4e, that much is undeniable.

I can only half-agree to this. In that I mean I'd be putting an entirely different spin on it. All that "legacy" stuff is just plain d&d; they came into 3e thinking they were continuing the same game, not making a new one. 4e wasn't so, just like you said. Most every real game of 3.5e I see or read about is fairly well balanced. Splatbooks can ruin this, but most of that seems to stay in theory. Even in games where some splatbooks are allowed, the DM and players tend to keep it under control. The real issue with non-casters seems to be boredom and perceived lack of power, perhaps stemming from lack of versatility. Heck, I've even seen rankings where the bard was placed a couple steps above core martial classes for this reason. The bard. Not that I don't think he could be par, but for anyone to say that he is way better than martial classes seems silly even in the popular mindset.

Honestly I think 3.5e is too complicated for a lot of gamers and that complication lacks enough "wow" factor to make them want to pay attention to it. I would guess a lot of the people who might like the complication and style are sticking to 2e anyway (but that's just a guess). So I can see how 4e would be better for a lot of people. And now that I've heard in this thread that 4e is dumbed down from ToB, I can see how ToB might be better for some (who like the whizz-bang stuff but also want complication). But as for my personal preference, well I mentioned that already.

Morty
2008-12-26, 04:14 PM
I can't make a TOB-based character without multiclassing.

It's not that the characters aren't good enough on their own...its that they multiclass so well that they make me WANT to multiclass them. So usually my warblade has several levels of a few core classes, too.

Maybe. As I said, I'm not against ToB in itself, but against the hype it gets. Some people simply don't like melee characters getting diverse manuevers. I'm not among them, but I see their point.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 04:43 PM
It gets a lot less of a hype, but Magic of Incarnum also does a great deal to increase the power of Melee, specifically Totemist, I LOVE TOTEMISTS.:smallredface:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 04:46 PM
It gets a lot less of a hype, but Magic of Incarnum also does a great deal to increase the power of Melee, specifically Totemist, I LOVE TOTEMISTS.:smallredface:
I think this is the third or fourth time I've seen you mention Totemists recently. You should just put a big red neon sign in your sig that says "I LOVE TOTEMISTS!!" :smalltongue:

Talya
2008-12-26, 04:47 PM
It gets a lot less of a hype, but Magic of Incarnum also does a great deal to increase the power of Melee, specifically Totemist, I LOVE TOTEMISTS.:smallredface:

You know, I have a copy of that on my hard drive. I have never once opened the file, but I have it. Huh. I wonder why...

Edit: Ah. I have opened it. Then closed it and forgot about it. I now remember why. I treated the psionics books the same way. I only want to deal with one system of magic in my games/on my characters. :(

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 04:49 PM
I think this is the third or fourth time I've seen you mention Totemists recently. You should just put a big red neon sign in your sig that says "I LOVE TOTEMISTS!!" :smalltongue: I should, shouldn't I... *goes off for a moment*... there we go.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 04:50 PM
So I see. "ZE GOGGLES, ZEY DO NOTHINK!!!" :smallwink:

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 04:51 PM
You know, I have a copy of that on my hard drive. I have never once opened the file, but I have it. Huh. I wonder why...

Edit: Ah. I have opened it. Then closed it and forgot about it. I now remember why. I treated the psionics books the same way.... Tsk tsk tsk. Psychic Warrior and Totemists are very capable melee combatants by themselves; there is a Totemist/Barbarian-hybrid class which makes for thorough awesomeness.

Siegel
2008-12-26, 04:52 PM
I think this is the third or fourth time I've seen you mention Totemists recently. You should just put a big red neon sign in your sig that says "I LOVE TOTEMISTS!!" :smalltongue:

There are people who don't ?

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 04:55 PM
There are people who don't ? Apparently.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 05:13 PM
There are people who don't ?
Honestly, they aren't my favorite. I won't say I dislike them, but I certainly don't like them overmuch. They are just sorta there in my opinion. But hey, some folks love em *ahemarcanesnowmanahem* and I can't argue with that (it's like me and my irrational love of Theurge classes, Magelord, Sunmaster, etc).

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-26, 05:16 PM
Honestly, they aren't my favorite. I won't say I dislike them, but I certainly don't like them overmuch. They are just sorta there in my opinion. But hey, some folks love em *ahemarcanesnowmanahem* and I can't argue with that (it's like me and my irrational love of Theurge classes, Magelord, Sunmaster, etc). I even put it in my sig :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 05:19 PM
I even put it in my sig :smallbiggrin:
Exactly. I should probably compile a list of my favorite PrC's, classes, and races sometime (Magelord, Sunmaster, Wizard, and Dvati will all feature prominently on said list)...

Siegel
2008-12-26, 05:25 PM
I even put it in my sig :smallbiggrin:

And because of that you are the hero of my day. Spread the word of incarnum

Aergoth
2008-12-26, 05:42 PM
I've got to say. I think ToB is neat. Granted. Some of this is supposed to be over the top. But stuff like "hide in plain sight?" (most horrid thing ever.) is terrible. Monks fall under this. 95% of PHB Rules as Written (no supplements) is western fantasy. in western fantasy, paladins would probably exist, clerics wouldn't be able to wear armor and cast spells. They'd be divine versions of wizards. Or maybe bards with better spell progression. Monks would be little hunched over guys who's class skills would be craft (painstakingly executed illumination) knowledge (religion (your own) and perform (chanting as a group). They'd live in little cloistered monasteries and never show up in the game. Monks would not be able to hit you so hard your grand children (assuming you live) would be able to feel it, nor would they be able to transcend the limits of what is humanly possible, or become otherworldly beings. Don't talk **** about anime/wuxia in ToB if you aren't going to knock that. (What? I can only punch a guy really really hard so many times a day? What up with that?) End repeat of the rest of the thread.

You can* make a pure ToB character, run a swordsage or a crusader or something from 1-20 but then that's like saying "you can't make a pure fighter" because of stuff like prestige classes.

*I say can This doesn't mean you should, though I've got a 5th or 6th level character in an awakened animal campaign doing that. 80ft per round movement, Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers/stances, and a partner so big he can lift small villages. Throw Ally+Ancient Mountain Hammer= Fastball. Special. Ohsnap. It's a special case. But it'll kill anyone alive assuming I get to use it. The planned scenario goes like this. Throw ally. Hit the enemy. Bounce (small size) and then run back and hit them in the face if they're still standing.

Reinboom
2008-12-26, 05:50 PM
On the anime or wuxia theme:
Don't do it that way. Or don't yell out the names.
Alternatively...
"Kowy, the level 12 Barbarian moves in to battle, glares at the oversized red dragon, and suddenly throws his head back, roars, grabs his great-axe greatsword with both hands, begins to charge then jumps, yelling 'Leap Attaaaaaaaack!!!'"

For the 'reality' of it, or the supernatural of it. Most of, say, the class that isn't supposed to be supernatural (Warblade)... I can only think of 3 things off the top of my head that would make it 'supernatural'.
1. White Raven Tactics. Only due to rules abuse.
2. Time stand stills. Oh yay. At level 17, much much MUCH further than any fathomable human limit, it can get 2 full attacks.
3. Iron-Heart Surge. This is only 'supernatural' because it's in a world where supernatural stuff exists.

There is a point when you stop being, in a fantasy game a hardened swordsman and instead you become Gallahad, the mary-sue who wouldn't die, until he decided "Oh hey, ok, going to heaven now. *wields self in to heaven*". However, given that the Warblade doesn't even get close to that...

Alternatively...
"Kowy lands his blow powerfully down upon the leg of the red dragon, as he yells out 'MASSIVE DAMAGE!', the red dragon frowns, looks down at the minor wound, then falls over dead."

Clementx
2008-12-26, 06:29 PM
I assume you removed the Teleport and Polymorph lines. Did you take out every save-or-die? The battlefield alteration spells that can render combat unimportant? The buffs that are often worth more than a classes' core features when they're in effect

Yes, for the most part. Most save-or-dies are out, except those that have restrictions (Circle of Death- material component and HD limit, Harm's inability to actually kill, etc.). Players love not having to rest their entire character on a single roll. Divine Power and Righteous Might are gone. Clerics don't mind, because they still have excellent alternatives. Polymorph is select-a-number-of-listed-abilities/buffs and cosmetic. Fabricate is gone. Greater teleport is not flawless. Magnificent Mansion is replaced with Secure Shelter spells. Time Stop is gone in favor of Spell Matrix. Disjunction does not permanently destroy magic items.

When there are drastic balance problems, you have to take "drastic" steps. And rather than make those drastic changes to melee classes, you should target the changes at the problems. ToB is truly more work than this.

Aquillion
2008-12-26, 07:00 PM
Tsk tsk tsk. Psychic Warrior and Totemists are very capable melee combatants by themselves; there is a Totemist/Barbarian-hybrid class which makes for thorough awesomeness.I think they don't get a lot of attention for the same reason the ToB gets flack -- they use mystical-seeming powers, so they're not "pure" meleers.

Although really, several key PsyWar powers are not at all mystical. Things like Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge basically just amount to "I move very quickly". The various precognitions and other buffs can be justified as a warrior's senses, without any mystical / psionic component. Expansion, not so much, but still...

A lot of the people who complain about the ToB just don't see things that way. They want to be able to get through every fight with trip, charge, full attack, and grapple.

RebelRogue
2008-12-26, 07:11 PM
I never really liked ToB much, not because of fluff (I'm all for the stuff it tried to do), but more because it felt so tacked-on to me. However, reading some of the stuff in this thread sort of makes me want to give it a go again... I think we're doing 4e in my group for the next set of sessions, though.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-27, 12:58 AM
I'm actually getting ready to give my players a taste of ToB classes. There are some encounter concepts that will express themselves better with access to ToB.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-27, 01:22 AM
Yes, for the most part. Most save-or-dies are out, except those that have restrictions (Circle of Death- material component and HD limit, Harm's inability to actually kill, etc.). Players love not having to rest their entire character on a single roll. Divine Power and Righteous Might are gone. Clerics don't mind, because they still have excellent alternatives. Polymorph is select-a-number-of-listed-abilities/buffs and cosmetic. Fabricate is gone. Greater teleport is not flawless. Magnificent Mansion is replaced with Secure Shelter spells. Time Stop is gone in favor of Spell Matrix. Disjunction does not permanently destroy magic items.

When there are drastic balance problems, you have to take "drastic" steps. And rather than make those drastic changes to melee classes, you should target the changes at the problems. ToB is truly more work than this.

So here's the list of 9th level Wizard spells under your system:

1) Freedom, not that it matters, because Imprisonment is banned.
2) Refuge? Have you ever seen someone do that?
3) Summon Monster ****
4) Teleportation Circle
5) Foresight
6) Crushing Hand
7) Meter Swarm
8) Energy Drain
9) Soul Bind

So basically you just memorize Crushing hand and Energy Drain.

Waspinator
2008-12-27, 01:25 AM
As has been said, a Crusader is not really any different than a Paladin in terms of roleplaying and "fluff". They basically just use different crunch for the same end goal. Similarly, the Swordsage looks a lot like a Monk and the Warblade the Fighter. If you're worried about keeping things non-supernatural, just stick with a Warblade. Most of their maneuvers are things that can be accomplished through sheer strength and skill, even if it's an improbably level of strength and skill. It's many Swordsages with Desert Wind (or as I like to call it, the Captain Falcon school of fighting) that get kind of anime-y.

And to me at least, nerfing down the casters in an attempt to improve game balance just makes the game worse for everyone. The real problem isn't that a Wizard is stronger than the Fighter, it's that the Wizard probably has a lot more interesting options during a fight while the Fighter problems just runs up and full attacks over and over. The Tome of Battle changes that by adding more interesting combat abilities to the new classes.

When changing an existing game system, rather than starting a new one or a new edition, it's usually much better and easier to add on new things than to radically change old ones.

TempusCCK
2008-12-27, 01:25 AM
Or the fixed Disjunction, or the alternative time stop...

Not all the spells were removed, some were merely edited.

Aquillion
2008-12-27, 03:53 AM
So here's the list of 9th level Wizard spells under your system:

1) Freedom, not that it matters, because Imprisonment is banned.
2) Refuge? Have you ever seen someone do that?
3) Summon Monster ****
4) Teleportation Circle
5) Foresight
6) Crushing Hand
7) Meter Swarm
8) Energy Drain
9) Soul Bind

So basically you just memorize Crushing hand and Energy Drain.
He didn't say he removed Wish. I hope he didn't, because Wish as a spell is not particularly overpowered as long as you exert just a bit of sanity on the various options and don't let players do much with unlisted options.

More importantly, removing Wish is problematic because of the sheer number of other effects that reference it as the only cure.

Anyway... It would probably be possible to make a non-broken version of Shapechange (give a list of acceptable forms. There, done -- it's fairly nerfed depending on the list, but without that Shapechange is probably the most broken non-epic spell ever printed, and that's saying a lot.)

But how do you fix Gate without basically turning it into an alternative Summon Monster 9? Gate's entire premise is horribly, terribly wrong on several levels. Being able to grab any monster from anywhere and control it is just not going to work.

The only one I might disagree with is Time Stop. Time Stop is one of those spells that, while powerful, looks better on paper (or in messageboard fights) than in reality. In general, it's the other broken spells that you use Time Stop to cast that are the real problem, not Time Stop itself. Any problems with it could be fixed by simply reducing the number of rounds it grants to two or three.

Also, it's worth pointing out that his fixed Disjunction is (while we haven't read its details) probably more useful to players than the original -- which is not hard, since the original was totally useless to any player who likes treasure. If it's simply an "items recover 1d4 minutes later" dealie, Disjunction could easily be the most useful 9th level spell on the list (at that point I would argue it might actually be overpowered.)