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Admiral Squish
2008-12-26, 10:30 PM
I recently bought Complete Warrior, and, of course, I noted the warshaper class. Now, instantly, my house has been brought into heated debate about this class. My older brother says it's way overpowered. My little brother says it's totally fine. I have yet to approach my DM with it, due some of the chatter I hear about it. So, is it way overpowered or normal? The powers seem on the high end, but how one would turn it into the pun-pun-esque monstrosity so oft described? Also, what does this mean for changelings?

woodenbandman
2008-12-26, 10:33 PM
It's kinda ehh. It can be nice for a totemist or a shifter, but anyone else can't qualify. If you can get it houseruled to stack for wildshape forms, then Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper is a great fun combat build. Definitely not overpowered, just fun.

wadledo
2008-12-26, 10:50 PM
Yea, not overpowered, just usefull.
Remember, 90% of the races that can use this (doppleganer, wer-creatures, somewhat dragons) are either weak, or (like dragons) can do significatly better with just about anything but a slight dip.
The 5th level is pretty much useless, and if it had any caster lvl progression, I'd say it was more broken than a clock filled with explosives, but it doesn't.
So relax, enjoy, and smack your older brother upside the head for us.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-26, 10:52 PM
It's kinda ehh. It can be nice for a totemist or a shifter, but anyone else can't qualify. If you can get it houseruled to stack for wildshape forms, then Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper is a great fun combat build. Definitely not overpowered, just fun.

Umm... druids CAN get it without needing a houserule. In fact, Druids are specifically mentioned in the prerequisite section.

It's not overpowered, although it has that reputation when combined with Druid5/MoMF10/Warshaper5. It's really the MoMF that is making this build overpowered, Warshaper is just icing on the case.

Bonuses ONLY chime in when you are in an alternate form, it doesn't promote advancing of wildshaping (so you're only 15hd for purposes of wildshape, so you can't get Dire Bear or a few other goodies), nor does it promote spellcasting.

Shifter Immunity is nice, but only if you're dealing with a bunch of rogues (effectively heavy fortification). Immunity to stunning is also extremely situational.

Most alternate forms come with weapons, so Shifter Weapons is useless.

Morphic Body is nice... but can ONLY kick in when in an alternate form

Morphic Reach is probably the reason why anyone would want to take this class. It's the best ability out of the PrC.

Morphic Healing is okay... if you want to fill up between combat. By the time you can get this, it's not good for any kind of in combat healing.

Multimorph is very useful, keeping you from having to burn lots of wild shape uses to change to better forms.

Strong choice? Only if you intend on staying shifted at all times, and you don't mind not being as good at shifting than if you had stuck with whatever you were advancing that granted it.

Just remember the limitation to the class: any and all benefits of Warshaper ONLY apply when in an alternate form.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-26, 11:01 PM
It requires a bit of house-ruling or player restraint to be playable, as there's no stated limit on how many morphic weapons can be grown, or used in one round.

"I batter my foe with ONE MILLION tentacles!!"

If the amount of damage you do on a full attack is "enough to kill everything in my conveniently improved reach", that's a bit unbalanced.

Flickerdart
2008-12-26, 11:06 PM
Wildshape can be kept up all day easy, and all druids smart enough to take Natural Spell will be Wildshaped all day anyways.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-26, 11:09 PM
Indeed ignoring the lack of limit on number of natural attacks, it's a good class, useful for some, not for others.

(Also note that a Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Shifter can work.)

But if your DM seriously doesn't houserule "No you can't get a million tentacles." then it is pun-punesque.

BobVosh
2008-12-26, 11:14 PM
Wildshape can be kept up all day easy, and all druids smart enough to take Natural Spell will be Wildshaped all day anyways.

There are druids who don't take Wildshape?

I enjoyed Warshaper+Bear Warrior from the same book. Though look for the eratta for BW, as it is screwed up in the text.

Warshaper is nice, espically if you just dip for a few levels. Not incrediably broken.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-26, 11:14 PM
Wildshape can be kept up all day easy, and all druids smart enough to take Natural Spell will be Wildshaped all day anyways.

And in exchange, you loose Elemental Wild Shape, and can't shift into anything more than 15HD (since Warshaper doesn't advance Wild Shape).

Admiral Squish
2008-12-26, 11:22 PM
Now, this begs the question: Changelings. Humanoids with the shapechanger subtype (specifically mentioned in the warshaper entry), they have an at-will minor shape change power that can be maintained indefinitely. Broken?

Flickerdart
2008-12-26, 11:29 PM
And in exchange, you loose Elemental Wild Shape, and can't shift into anything more than 15HD (since Warshaper doesn't advance Wild Shape).
Oh, boo hoo. Wildshape is horrendously broken anyways. 5HD won't make it any less so, especially with the extra goodies.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-26, 11:32 PM
First of all, keep in mind that none of the class features function unless you're in a form other than your own, as stated just before the weapon and armor proficiencies entry. That restricts it to however often you can be in another form, though for most characters that will be all the time. Encounters that occur when you're resting or in a town or city will likely catch a War Shaper without his class features until he's had a chance to act and spent an action changing forms.

Second, the ability to grow additional natural attacks is entirely up to DM interpretation. It says you grow additional natural weapons, not additional limbs. Unless a form already has multiple tentacles, it reasonably cannot gain tentacle attacks via this class feature. Even if it could, a DM could easily restrict the character to only growing the natural weapons of something else whose form he could take, so he couldn't gain more tentacle attacks than a Giant Squid assuming he can change into one in the first place. Attempting to grow a million tentacle attacks would be the same as trying to grow a million claw attacks, if his form doesn't already possess those limbs, he cannot grow them into natural attacks.

Third, the class may grant some nice class features, but it doesn't improve on any existing abilities. A Druid 10 is capable of taking much better forms than a Druid 6/ Warshaper 4, and considering its better spellcasting and animal companion it's better off staying single-classed. A Sorcerer or Wizard who gains Polymorph and takes Warshaper won't be advancing their spellcasting ability, and even in a Gish (Fighter/Mage) type build it's typically not worth taking. The best use for Warshaper is either extremely late in a build (after Druid 5/ Master of Many Forms 7) or with a build that seeks to abuse it (Changeling Barbarian 4/ Master of Many Forms). Late in a build there are much more powerful options available, such as any full spellcaster, and builds that seek to abuse it are probably subject to DM interpretation anyway and should never get past a good DM in the first place.

Finally, many of the abilities it grants aren't really worth gaining or can be duplicated by spells, magic items, racial abilities, or other classes. The 5th level of the class is completely worthless, no BAB and no save improvements for an ability that won't even add anything significant to any character. The 4th level isn't worth much in most builds, since you'd either be gaining the special qualities of your form anyway and can change into something like a Hydra or Cave/War Troll for Fast Healing or Regeneration. The 3rd level's Morphic Reach is actually really useful, though the 2nd level's Con boost technically doesn't improve your HP due to the errata on Wild Shape and the wording on Alternate Form. Morphic Immunities is practically the same thing as Fortification armor, neither of which will even do anything unless you get hit with something you're be immune to, it's entirely dependent on your opponents' actions and capabilities.

War Shaper only gets one good save, is below melee classes on HP, doesn't even get full BAB, and is on the lowest tier for skill points/level. It grants a good defensive ability that isn't even always active, some decent melee abilities that barely make up for the loss of BAB but don't make up for the loss of Wild Shape/Spellcasting levels, and grants other abilities that can be easily duplicated better than this class can do or aren't even worth gaining. Only a very small portion of characters who qualify for this class would want to take levels in it, therefore it is not broken.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-26, 11:33 PM
Now, this begs the question: Changelings. Humanoids with the shapechanger subtype (specifically mentioned in the warshaper entry), they have an at-will minor shape change power that can be maintained indefinitely. Broken?As with other things, you need restrictions on the number of weapons grown, but they don't break the class any more than Druid does.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-26, 11:45 PM
Now, this begs the question: Changelings. Humanoids with the shapechanger subtype (specifically mentioned in the warshaper entry), they have an at-will minor shape change power that can be maintained indefinitely. Broken?

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action.

The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own.
It is entirely up to DM interpretation whether "a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size" fits the requirement of "a form other than her own." A character with the spells Enlarge Person and Camouflage wouldn't be considered to be in a form other than their own. I don't think that Minor Shape Change is capable of bringing about significant enough changes to make a character be considered to be in a form other than their own, and most good DMs will rule likewise.

For a Druid, sacrificing some levels of Wild Shape for War Shaper is probably a fair trade later on, but it's not worth giving up spellcasting for, especially if you take more than three levels of it.