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Myou
2008-12-30, 10:36 PM
I'm about to start a new campaign playing my first wizard and I'm looking for advice on which 1st level spells I should take. I'm no sure how much you need to know about him, but I'll post everything that I think might be relevant. Any non-spell related advice is very welcome too (but his race and class are set and based on his backstory, so those can't be changed).

His abilities are 6/20/20/22/18/10. 15HP (Will increase by maximum die roll + Con mod each level).

He's fine sized (+8 bonus to Armor Class, +8 bonus on attack rolls, +16 to Hide checks, 16 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/8 those of a Medium creature. 4" tall, 1/10lb weight).

Racial feat: Shift Forms: He can change size from Fine to Medium or back at will as a full action. Appropriate modifiers according to size class apply in full. All carried items and clothing change size to match. Items seperated from his person slowly return to their original size over one round. (We're assuming this means that his equipment will change weight in line with his changing carry capacity.)

He also has a fly speed of 60ft. (Perfect), but has to make a fortitude save (DC 15) to avoid damage to his wings whenever he's attacked from behind or hit by an area damage spell and takes more than 20% of his maximum HP in damage. If he fails his save he drops like a stone and it takes one hour for his wings to regenerate.

His familiar is a toad, giving +2 Con, included in the ability scores given earlier.

He doesn't age.
His favoured class is wizard (I'm not interested in multiclassing though).
He gets a bonus feat at level one and bonus skill points as a human would (house rule for all races).

He's a Transmutation Domain Wizard (+1 to caster level for domain spells (even if not cast from a domain slot), gains one bonus spell slot per day for each spell level he can cast, which can be filled with spells from the chosen domain only. Metamagic feats can be used to fill higher level domain slots with lower level domain spells. Domain spells are Mage Hand, Expeditious Retreat, Levitate, Haste, Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, Reverse Gravity, Iron Body, Shapechange.)

He currently gets 3 cantrips and 3 level one spells a day.

Spells he knows;
Level 0:
Resistance, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Ray of Frost, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Caltrops, Electric Jolt, Sonic snap, Silent Portal, Amanuensis, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Repair Minor Damage, Stick, Preserve Organ, Unnerving Gaze, No Light, Slash Tongue, Acid Splash, Detect Ghost, Disrupt Ectoplasm, Preserve Ectoplasm, Attract Eyes, Chalkboard, Coin of the Realm, Deftness, Flag, Fleeting Flame, Footpad's Grace, Foraging Charm, Gasp, Glittering Razors, Groundsmoke, Heat Water, Mirror, Necrosurgery, Nosy Neighbour, Perfect Pitch, Phantasmal Whisperer, Resize, Seeker's Chant, Shadowplay, Stench, Vengeful Mount, Yell, Zap Trap.

Level 1:
Shield, Mage Armour, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Sleep, Remove Scent, Ventriloquism, Detect Magic(accidental duplicate) Colour Spray, Benign Transposition, Insite Nerveskitter, Grease, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person.

His feats are Scribe Scroll, Spellbook Mastery (Adds his Int mod to the no. of new spells he gets each level), Able Learner (Makes all skills class skills) and Shift Forms.

He has the following skills: Concentration 4, Decipher Script 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4.

In case it's releveant, we're using all the sources available to us.

So, are my chosen spells good or should I change them? And any other tips are much appreciated!

Especially tips on what to do about my abysmal encumberance limit! Even carrying my starting gear encumbers me! xD

Edit: I forgot to say, I get 15 level 1 spells, not including my domain spell, Expeditious Retreat.

Egiam
2008-12-30, 10:41 PM
For first lvls, I would take: mage armor, magic missle, expeditious retreat,
but thats my opinion. By the way, is spellbook mastery a core feat? If not, which book?

Myou
2008-12-30, 10:52 PM
For first lvls, I would take: mage armor, magic missle, expeditious retreat,
but thats my opinion. By the way, is spellbook mastery a core feat? If not, which book?

I can't remember what book it's from, I think it was Tome and Blood or Tome of Magic.

Any other especially useful level 1 spells?

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-30, 11:06 PM
If you have access to Spell Compendium, Swift Expeditious Retreat is a lot more useful. Nerve Skitter from the same book gives you +5 initiative as an immediate action.
Color Spray also works wonders in an 1st level encounter.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-30, 11:10 PM
Color Spray is the spell most widely used among 1st level characters. It can knock down multiple opponents in one shot, and your party can go CDG everyone it hit while they're out.

Myou
2008-12-30, 11:14 PM
If you have access to Spell Compendium, Swift Expeditious Retreat is a lot more useful. Nerve Skitter from the same book gives you +5 initiative as an immediate action.
Color Spray also works wonders in an 1st level encounter.

So, it's Expeditious Retreat but quicker to cast?
If so I'd take it, but I have get the normal Expeditious Retreat free anyway from my domain, so is it worth having both?

Never Skitter looks great, I think I will indeed take it.

Colour spray doesn't scale though, so unless you think I'll really need it I'd prefer something that would stay useful a bit longer.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-30, 11:15 PM
Edit:Thought I saw sleep...

Doesn't matter that Color Spray doesn't scale, it'll win you encounters early on and with the Spellbook Mastery you've got more than enough spells.

Iuliano05
2008-12-30, 11:16 PM
it doesn't matter that color spray doesnt scale. Which it does. I think it goes up to 6 hit dice. Your a wizard after its not worth takeing anymore prepare new spells. Even sorc who are much more picky about there spells take color spray.

Myou
2008-12-30, 11:19 PM
Well, in that case, what should I swap for Colour Spray? xD

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-30, 11:22 PM
Replace Sleep, its casting time makes it worthless.

Myou
2008-12-30, 11:25 PM
Replace Sleep, its casting time makes it worthless.

Really? Sleep? I was told I'd find it to be one of the most useful spells. o.O

Glimbur
2008-12-30, 11:41 PM
The problem with sleep is the one round casting time. That means you wave your arms for 6 seconds, and at your initiative pass next round the spell goes off. Summons also have that problem. What this means is the window to get hit while casting is much wider, as there's a round enemies can attack you in.

Color Spray has its own problems, specifically that it's a cone so you have to be near foes to affect them. You can get scrolls of Mage Armor and take, say, Grease instead. It's like giving your melee +4 to hit.

Myou
2008-12-30, 11:46 PM
The problem with sleep is the one round casting time. That means you wave your arms for 6 seconds, and at your initiative pass next round the spell goes off. Summons also have that problem. What this means is the window to get hit while casting is much wider, as there's a round enemies can attack you in.

Color Spray has its own problems, specifically that it's a cone so you have to be near foes to affect them. You can get scrolls of Mage Armor and take, say, Grease instead. It's like giving your melee +4 to hit.

Hmmm, well I'd like to keep sleep if I can, for use when I'm not vulnerable to being attacked while casting it.

I'm a bit confused by your second paragraph though. ^^;

Miraqariftsky
2008-12-31, 02:29 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm

I think what Glimbur meant was that Colour Spray has a 15-foot range and also that its effects are dependent on the HD of the targets.

For example, it's almost certain to take out a mob of classic scimitar-and-spear goblins, but you wouldn't be so sure when facing their several-leveled shaman. Likely wouldn't work as much as ye'd like it to if faced with something huge--- huge often means a whopping HD.

And beware if some of the mob you're trying to incapacitate make their saves. If they do, you're likely to be very easy to reach and attack, though your high AC and HP are likely to save ye some grief.

arguskos
2008-12-31, 02:44 AM
Level 0:
Detect Ghost, Disrupt Ectoplasm, Preserve Ectoplasm, Attract Eyes, Chalkboard, Coin of the Realm, Deftness, Flag, Fleeting Flame, Footpad's Grace, Foraging Charm, Gasp, Glittering Razors, Groundsmoke, Heat Water, Mirror, Necrosurgery, Nosy Neighbour, Perfect Pitch, Phantasmal Whisperer, Resize, Seeker's Chant, Shadowplay, Stench, Vengeful Mount, Yell, Zap Trap.
Where are these 0th level spells from? I LOOOOVE cantrips, but don't know these ones...

Myou
2008-12-31, 04:27 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm

I think what Glimbur meant was that Colour Spray has a 15-foot range and also that its effects are dependent on the HD of the targets.

For example, it's almost certain to take out a mob of classic scimitar-and-spear goblins, but you wouldn't be so sure when facing their several-leveled shaman. Likely wouldn't work as much as ye'd like it to if faced with something huge--- huge often means a whopping HD.

And beware if some of the mob you're trying to incapacitate make their saves. If they do, you're likely to be very easy to reach and attack, though your high AC and HP are likely to save ye some grief.

Ah, I see, thanks.

So can anyone suggest which of my current level 1 spells to trade for Color Spray?


Where are these 0th level spells from? I LOOOOVE cantrips, but don't know these ones...

I searched every sourcebook I or my friends have. :3
And searched here: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/magic/spells.shtml

I <3 Cantrips.

Bosh
2008-12-31, 05:19 AM
Toads don't give you +2 con as familiars.

And dear lord, what character creation guidelines did you DM give you?

Myou
2008-12-31, 05:35 AM
Toads don't give you +2 con as familiars.

And dear lord, what character creation guidelines did you DM give you?

And wizards don't start with 22 Int and 15 HP.

Homebrew rules.

TengYt
2008-12-31, 07:36 AM
It'd hard to give tips for some wizard made with crazy houserules and some mad homebrewed race. I mean, if wizards weren't cheesy enough already...

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 08:04 AM
Toads don't give you +2 con as familiars.

And dear lord, what character creation guidelines did you DM give you?

3.0 Toads did.

only1doug
2008-12-31, 08:52 AM
Spells he knows;
Level 0:
Resistance, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Ray of Frost, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Caltrops, Electric Jolt, Sonic snap, Silent Portal, Amanuensis, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Repair Minor Damage, Stick, Preserve Organ, Unnerving Gaze, No Light, Slash Tongue, Acid Splash, Detect Ghost, Disrupt Ectoplasm, Preserve Ectoplasm, Attract Eyes, Chalkboard, Coin of the Realm, Deftness, Flag, Fleeting Flame, Footpad's Grace, Foraging Charm, Gasp, Glittering Razors, Groundsmoke, Heat Water, Mirror, Necrosurgery, Nosy Neighbour, Perfect Pitch, Phantasmal Whisperer, Resize, Seeker's Chant, Shadowplay, Stench, Vengeful Mount, Yell, Zap Trap.

Level 1:
Shield, Mage Armour, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Sleep, Remove Scent, Ventriloquism, Detect Magic(L0), Benign Transposition, Insite Nerveskitter, Grease, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person.

His feats are Scribe Scroll, Spellbook Mastery (Adds his Int mod to the no. of new spells he gets each level), Able Learner (Makes all skills class skills) and Shift Forms.

So, are my chosen spells good or should I change them? And any other tips are much appreciated!

Especially tips on what to do about my abysmal encumberance limit! Even carrying my starting gear encumbers me! xD

Edit: I forgot to say, I get 15 level 1 spells, not including my domain spell, Expeditious Retreat.

D. Expeditious retreat
1. Shield
2. Mage Armour
3. Colour spray
4. Ray of enfeeblement
5. Benign Transposition
6. Sleep
7. Enlarge Person
8. Grease
9. Endure Elements
10. Nerveskitter
11. Silent Image
12. Ventriloquism
13. Remove Scent
14. Feather Fall
15. Magic Missile

I'd be tempted to swap out ventriloquism or Remove scent and put in Power Word: Pain (races of the Dragon Pg 116)




So, it's Expeditious Retreat but quicker to cast?
If so I'd take it, but I have get the normal Expeditious Retreat free anyway from my domain, so is it worth having both?
swift Expeditious retreat has a duration of 1 rnd (regardless of caster level) expeditious retreat is better if you know you are going to need it, swift version is a great escape spell (provided you can get far enough away in 1 rnd) especially as swift cast spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity.


Never Skitter looks great, I think I will indeed take it.

Colour spray doesn't scale though, so unless you think I'll really need it I'd prefer something that would stay useful a bit longer.



His abilities are 6/20/20/22/18/10. 15HP (Will increase by maximum die roll + Con mod each level).

Spellbook Mastery (Adds his Int mod to the no. of new spells he gets each level)

8 spells / level (+ learning from other sources). don't worry if colour spray (or anything else) is useless at later levels, you have ample chance to replace it, its good at L1 and thats what matters for now.

Dyllan
2008-12-31, 09:12 AM
Still looking for something to swap for Color Spray?

I suggest Magic Missile. At first level, it's only 1d4+1 damage to a single target... you can get a lot more effect out of some of your other spells. And you can always pick up Magic Missile again when you level to 2. It's not really worth memorizing until you at least reach level 3 though, and get a second missile. Even then, it's questionable as a Wizard, as you have so many other good options for your level 1 spells that still have full effect against the kind of enemies you're likely to face.

Malacode
2008-12-31, 12:13 PM
What race are you playing and where did you find it? I mean, yikes! The size shift ability is, well... Yikes. If this thing doesn't have LA, I'll be preeettyy suprised. (Sorry, off topic, but I just have to know)

Myou
2008-12-31, 12:45 PM
It'd hard to give tips for some wizard made with crazy houserules and some mad homebrewed race. I mean, if wizards weren't cheesy enough already...

So it didn't occur to you that every class is getting powered up? It's balaced in the game we're going to be playing.


What race are you playing and where did you find it? I mean, yikes! The size shift ability is, well... Yikes. If this thing doesn't have LA, I'll be preeettyy suprised. (Sorry, off topic, but I just have to know)

It's a homebrew race, and it has no LA, because in this campaign every player gets a more powerful race.


Still looking for something to swap for Color Spray?

I suggest Magic Missile. At first level, it's only 1d4+1 damage to a single target... you can get a lot more effect out of some of your other spells. And you can always pick up Magic Missile again when you level to 2. It's not really worth memorizing until you at least reach level 3 though, and get a second missile. Even then, it's questionable as a Wizard, as you have so many other good options for your level 1 spells that still have full effect against the kind of enemies you're likely to face.

Thanks for the tip, but I actually just plain like magic Missile. xD


D. Expeditious retreat
1. Shield
2. Mage Armour
3. Colour spray
4. Ray of enfeeblement
5. Benign Transposition
6. Sleep
7. Enlarge Person
8. Grease
9. Endure Elements
10. Nerveskitter
11. Silent Image
12. Ventriloquism
13. Remove Scent
14. Feather Fall
15. Magic Missile

I'd be tempted to swap out ventriloquism or Remove scent and put in Power Word: Pain (races of the Dragon Pg 116)

Well spotted, I missed that duplication of Detect Magic!

Hmmm, that Power Word does look great for level 1, but we do have a sorceror who's a blaster, which is why I took Remove Scent (to let me sneak around using my maxed move silently without guard animal smelling me) and Ventriloquism (to distract/trick enemies) - they both seem like really useful spells and ones that our sorceror won't have.

Is ther eany other spell on the list that I might swap for Power Word Pain? Or have I overestimated Remove Scent/Ventriloquism?





swift Expeditious retreat has a duration of 1 rnd (regardless of caster level) expeditious retreat is better if you know you are going to need it, swift version is a great escape spell (provided you can get far enough away in 1 rnd) especially as swift cast spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Well, since I get the regular one free I guess I'll make do with it in that case.



8 spells / level (+ learning from other sources). don't worry if colour spray (or anything else) is useless at later levels, you have ample chance to replace it, its good at L1 and thats what matters for now.

That is a very good point!

Thanks for your advice!

Heliomance
2008-12-31, 12:52 PM
Just a note, and this may have been houseruled differently, but Able Learner is Human only, and doesn't actualy make all skills class skills. It makes all skills cost 1 point per rank, but it doesn't move the caps. A first level character can still only have 2 ranks in a cross-class skill, even with Able Learner.

only1doug
2008-12-31, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the tip, but I actually just plain like magic Missile. xD


it's nice to have the option.
Optimisation wise most people will tell you that damage spells are the weakest path for low level casters. with 3 spells / day you'll find that blasting won't work very well, assuming 4 encounters / day you won't even be able to cast 1 / combat. buff / utility / battlefield control are much more profitable paths.


Well spotted, I missed that duplication of Detect Magic!

no problem


Hmmm, that Power Word does look great for level 1, but we do have a sorceror who's a blaster, which is why I took Remove Scent (to let me sneak around using my maxed move silently without guard animal smelling me) and Ventriloquism (to distract/trick enemies) - they both seem like really useful spells and ones that our sorceror won't have.

Is there any other spell on the list that I might swap for Power Word Pain? Or have I overestimated Remove Scent/Ventriloquism?


as i said above, blasting is a un-rewarding route at L1, Power word pain is continuous damage which makes it preferable to the instant damage of Magic missile but the power word only works on living creatures (making undead and constructs invalid as targets). overall which spells you prefer to take are entirely your opinion as to what is best. It really depends on what you think you are likely to prepare. with just 3 spells / day and inherent flight are you ever going to prepare feather fall? (at later levels sure, but at L1?) will you ever think it's sensible to use benevolent transposition? is a benefit as short lived as shield truly worth a spell slot?
All we can do is offer advice, the final choices are yours.





Well, since I get the regular one free I guess I'll make do with it in that case.


Personally I prefer the normal version.




That is a very good point!

Thanks for your advice!

You are most welcome.

ericgrau
2008-12-31, 01:43 PM
Really? Sleep? I was told I'd find it to be one of the most useful spells. o.O

It is, but today you just happened to run into people with different opinions. The first action of such people is to immediately bash the former favorite as being utterly worthless. See people's thoughts on evocation for an epic example.

I always thought color spray was "worthless" because of the severely limited range compared to sleep. So really it depends what you're fighting. I'd go sleep, though you might see the kinds of situations where color spray is preferable. You probably wouldn't want both though, in most cases. So I can see how someone on one side of the fence could consider the other side "worthless".

Anyway my favorite first level spells for a 1st level character are:
grease, charm person (before combat), sleep, silent image
maybe hypnotism, color spray

At later levels I would also get:
mage armor, magic missile, expeditious retreat

and then ditch:
sleep, hypnotism, color spray

There are also some good utility spells, which you should put on scrolls once you hit higher levels and can afford them. Not on your spell list, b/c it may be a month before you actually use one. Yet it'll be nice to be ready when the time finally comes, hence cheap scrolls. And, yes, they are worth the 1xp (oh no!:smalltongue:) to scribe. As are other crafted magic items, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Or you can buy them; they're cheap anyway.

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 01:44 PM
If you can spare a feat, Precocious Apprentice lets you take a level 2 spell (with something like DC 8 Concentration to cast it). When you can actually cast spells, it becomes just another spell slot. With it, take Alter Self. I don't know what your creature type is, but sounds like you can get some sweet forms off of it. The more Monster Manuals available, the better.

Myou
2008-12-31, 03:43 PM
Just a note, and this may have been houseruled differently, but Able Learner is Human only, and doesn't actualy make all skills class skills. It makes all skills cost 1 point per rank, but it doesn't move the caps. A first level character can still only have 2 ranks in a cross-class skill, even with Able Learner.

Thanks for the note, in this case it is a houserule.


it's nice to have the option.
Optimisation wise most people will tell you that damage spells are the weakest path for low level casters. with 3 spells / day you'll find that blasting won't work very well, assuming 4 encounters / day you won't even be able to cast 1 / combat. buff / utility / battlefield control are much more profitable paths.

For me it's mainly that I want to have a good range of spells so I have as many options as possible, like you say. With 8 new spells per level I can afford to.

In game I intend to prepare mainly buffs and control spells at level 1.




as i said above, blasting is a un-rewarding route at L1, Power word pain is continuous damage which makes it preferable to the instant damage of Magic missile but the power word only works on living creatures (making undead and constructs invalid as targets). overall which spells you prefer to take are entirely your opinion as to what is best. It really depends on what you think you are likely to prepare. with just 3 spells / day and inherent flight are you ever going to prepare feather fall? (at later levels sure, but at L1?) will you ever think it's sensible to use benevolent transposition? is a benefit as short lived as shield truly worth a spell slot?
All we can do is offer advice, the final choices are yours.

Actually, my character prepares Feather Fall daily no matter what. It's a personality thing. xD

Even asking those questions is pretty helpful actually, since I'm new to playing a wizard and it's helpful to better understand the concerns of spell selection.

I'll have to think carefully about Power Word Pain.


Personally I prefer the normal version.

I think I do as well, it's more versatile and rewards a little foresight.


It is, but today you just happened to run into people with different opinions. The first action of such people is to immediately bash the former favorite as being utterly worthless. See people's thoughts on evocation for an epic example.

I always thought color spray was "worthless" because of the severely limited range compared to sleep. So really it depends what you're fighting. I'd go sleep, though you might see the kinds of situations where color spray is preferable. You probably wouldn't want both though, in most cases. So I can see how someone on one side of the fence could consider the other side "worthless".

Anyway my favorite first level spells for a 1st level character are:
grease, charm person (before combat), sleep, silent image
maybe hypnotism, color spray

At later levels I would also get:
mage armor, magic missile, expeditious retreat

and then ditch:
sleep, hypnotism, color spray

There are also some good utility spells, which you should put on scrolls once you hit higher levels and can afford them. Not on your spell list, b/c it may be a month before you actually use one. Yet it'll be nice to be ready when the time finally comes, hence cheap scrolls. And, yes, they are worth the 1xp (oh no!:smalltongue:) to scribe. As are other crafted magic items, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Or you can buy them; they're cheap anyway.

Thanks for clarifying that, I was quite surprised to see someone saying Sleep was worthless. xD

I think I'll leave Hypnotim though, because as I understand it, it's similar in use to Sleep and Colour Spray.

And I plan to scribe as many utility cantrips a I possibly can, yeah. Although I don't intend to take item creation feats other than Craft Contigent Spell both because they don't seem worthwhile to me and because my DM told me that we'll be pretty busy saving the world and he'll be giving us ample opportunity to buy items in towns etc.


If you can spare a feat, Precocious Apprentice lets you take a level 2 spell (with something like DC 8 Concentration to cast it). When you can actually cast spells, it becomes just another spell slot. With it, take Alter Self. I don't know what your creature type is, but sounds like you can get some sweet forms off of it. The more Monster Manuals available, the better.

Well, my creature type is humanoid, with no subtype, as my character was made by an epic spell. How would that effect the usefuless of Alter Self?

I was looking at Precocious Apprentice, but I don't think our DM would appreciate me taking it, then asking to retrain it a few levels later when it became less useful. (I'm trying to build a character that I'll be using all the way to epic levels)

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 04:45 PM
You can't be an untyped Humanoid that's Fine-sized...you should at least be a Monstrous Humanoid or a Pixie or some sort of thing like that.

Just in bounds of SRD material, a Troglodyte form will give you +6 Natural armour, 3 natural attacks and +4 racial aptitude on Hide checks, as well as the Stench special attack. There's the Locathah if you need to operate underwater (the +3 Natural Armour doesn't hurt either), or the Svirfneblin for 11+level spell resistance, +2 Hide, +2 on saving throws, +4 dodge AC, nondetection and a slew of spell-like abilities.

Never mind. You're a Fine creature, and Alter Self only gives you a form within one step of your size. If you can convince your DM you're a Magical Beast, you can get this thing. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Puppeteer) Mind you, this is in SRD material only, so there might be other forms.

ericgrau
2008-12-31, 05:15 PM
And I plan to scribe as many utility cantrips a I possibly can, yeah.
Well, I meant low level utility spells in general. Later on that'll include 1st level spells, a bit later probably 2nd level and maybe even 3rd level a while after that. i.e., when you're at a high enough level that these scrolls are dirt cheap.

Oh, and good catch on feather fall. I missed that one. Though like mage armour and magic missile, you may need the spell slot for other things until you level up a little. Up to you of course.

Ya, hypnotism is like sleep or color spray, with its own little differences. Choose your flavor, heh.

Myou
2008-12-31, 05:43 PM
You can't be an untyped Humanoid that's Fine-sized...you should at least be a Monstrous Humanoid or a Pixie or some sort of thing like that.

Just in bounds of SRD material, a Troglodyte form will give you +6 Natural armour, 3 natural attacks and +4 racial aptitude on Hide checks, as well as the Stench special attack. There's the Locathah if you need to operate underwater (the +3 Natural Armour doesn't hurt either), or the Svirfneblin for 11+level spell resistance, +2 Hide, +2 on saving throws, +4 dodge AC, nondetection and a slew of spell-like abilities.

Never mind. You're a Fine creature, and Alter Self only gives you a form within one step of your size. If you can convince your DM you're a Magical Beast, you can get this thing. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Puppeteer) Mind you, this is in SRD material only, so there might be other forms.

Actually, I can change betwen Fine and Medium as a full round action.

While the feat isn't something I can use, the spell is sounding great for when I get 2nd level spells! The puppeteer looks interesting.

I didn't know that fine creatures can't be untyped humanoids in RAW, but since I'm a homebrew creature to begin with and my DM's already approved me I guess it won't matter.
What are the actual effects of being untyped? Is it good or bad?


Well, I meant low level utility spells in general. Later on that'll include 1st level spells, a bit later probably 2nd level and maybe even 3rd level a while after that. i.e., when you're at a high enough level that these scrolls are dirt cheap.

Indeed, I just meant while I'm level 1. ^^


Oh, and good catch on feather fall. I missed that one. Though like mage armour and magic missile, you may need the spell slot for other things until you level up a little. Up to you of course.

Ya, hypnotism is like sleep or color spray, with its own little differences. Choose your flavor, heh.

Well, with feather fall my character prepares it because he's slightly paranoid about falling (a valid worry when AoE spells can temporarily make you drop like a stone) and he prefers to play things safe.

Thanks for the advice!

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-31, 05:54 PM
what is the rest of the party?

ok if 3.0 (toads giving con makes me think so) shield, alarm,color spray are all bread and butter. nothign limits nasty camp surprises like alarm. if you will havle mult encountersduring the day you want mage armor. first few levels your goal is simply hinder and survive. 3rd you will have some more useable spells, including good variety of damage types if not eliminate evocation (snowball swarm flaming sphere and acid arrow)

Myou
2008-12-31, 06:43 PM
what is the rest of the party?

ok if 3.0 (toads giving con makes me think so) shield, alarm,color spray are all bread and butter. nothign limits nasty camp surprises like alarm. if you will havle mult encountersduring the day you want mage armor. first few levels your goal is simply hinder and survive. 3rd you will have some more useable spells, including good variety of damage types if not eliminate evocation (snowball swarm flaming sphere and acid arrow)

We have a fighter, a rogue, a ranger, a cleric, a sorceror and my wizard.

We're playing 3.5 with some homebrew rules.

I was thinking that my familiar would work like a free alarm spell.

Thanks for the tips.

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 07:00 PM
Actually, I can change betwen Fine and Medium as a full round action.

While the feat isn't something I can use, the spell is sounding great for when I get 2nd level spells! The puppeteer looks interesting.

I didn't know that fine creatures can't be untyped humanoids in RAW, but since I'm a homebrew creature to begin with and my DM's already approved me I guess it won't matter.
What are the actual effects of being untyped? Is it good or bad?
Well, aside from not being able to use items keyed to blood (Elf, Orc, etc.) no real effect. It's not even against RAW, just odd.

True, since you can become Medium, you can take advantage of those. You'd only get (Ex)traordinary abilities, no (Su)pernatural or Spell-like, but that's still good.

The best abuse of the spell, though, comes from the Elan, which is a 0-LA aberration and can change into another one with it. Oh, the fun you can have with that.

Myou
2008-12-31, 07:14 PM
Well, aside from not being able to use items keyed to blood (Elf, Orc, etc.) no real effect. It's not even against RAW, just odd.

True, since you can become Medium, you can take advantage of those. You'd only get (Ex)traordinary abilities, no (Su)pernatural or Spell-like, but that's still good.

The best abuse of the spell, though, comes from the Elan, which is a 0-LA aberration and can change into another one with it. Oh, the fun you can have with that.

Well, it just seemed wierd that he'd have a subtype, since I don't think there's a category for 'a tiny haman wih a touch of elf and pixie (and wings) made by an epic wizard's spell'. Or is there? :o

I don't really want to abuse spells, just use them. xD

Ebonwoulfe
2008-12-31, 09:49 PM
I don't understand how you can be a fine-sized winged creature that is in the near company of a toad and expect to not become a tasty meal.

Myou
2008-12-31, 10:13 PM
I don't understand how you can be a fine-sized winged creature that is in the near company of a toad and expect to not become a tasty meal.

Uhhh... because it's my familiar? It does what I tell it. xD

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-31, 10:14 PM
We have a fighter, a rogue, a ranger, a cleric, a sorceror and my wizard.

We're playing 3.5 with some homebrew rules.

I was thinking that my familiar would work like a free alarm spell.

Thanks for the tips.

alertness wont wake you up if somethign aattacks and the person on watch isnt ready.

alarm=no sleeping during danger= no coup de grace=live to hit functional level.

since you have a sorc to round out some spells (magic missle machine!) you can really focus on utility. grease, chill touch, feeb ray all good spells to hinder. comp languages is ncie if the sorc isnt playing face at times.

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 10:26 PM
Well, it just seemed wierd that he'd have a subtype, since I don't think there's a category for 'a tiny haman wih a touch of elf and pixie (and wings) made by an epic wizard's spell'. Or is there? :o

I don't really want to abuse spells, just use them. xD
Well, the aforementioned Elan is created with a ritual...and aberrations usually are products of magic. So that's what I'd pen that as. But as an established Humanoid, not much to be done.

Myou
2008-12-31, 11:27 PM
alertness wont wake you up if somethign aattacks and the person on watch isnt ready.

alarm=no sleeping during danger= no coup de grace=live to hit functional level.

since you have a sorc to round out some spells (magic missle machine!) you can really focus on utility. grease, chill touch, feeb ray all good spells to hinder. comp languages is ncie if the sorc isnt playing face at times.

I meant that I could tell my familiar to keep watch and wake me and the party if anything approached. If not then the others can takes turns on watch.

I'm guessing that the sorceror will be the face, he has 18 cha after all.

I'm content to let him blast, but I want to be able to fight solo at higher levels if needed too.

Myou
2008-12-31, 11:30 PM
Well, the aforementioned Elan is created with a ritual...and aberrations usually are products of magic. So that's what I'd pen that as. But as an established Humanoid, not much to be done.

Well I'm happy with being humanoid. Although the DM would let me put the case if I wanted to change it.

Collin152
2008-12-31, 11:33 PM
I don't understand how you can be a fine-sized winged creature that is in the near company of a toad and expect to not become a tasty meal.

Pixies are small, which isn't even close to fine.

Myou
2008-12-31, 11:40 PM
Pixies are small, which isn't even close to fine.

I'm not playing a pixie.

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 11:56 PM
I meant that I could tell my familiar to keep watch and wake me and the party if anything approached. If not then the others can takes turns on watch.

I'm guessing that the sorceror will be the face, he has 18 cha after all.

I'm content to let him blast, but I want to be able to fight solo at higher levels if needed too.
He won't have the skill points to put into conversational skills, though.

Myou
2009-01-01, 07:49 AM
He won't have the skill points to put into conversational skills, though.

Well, he gets 8 skill points a level, won't that be enough?

I don't actually have enough skill points to take conersational skills myself.
I've got Concentration 4, Decipher Script 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4.
I'm planning to max them all out each level, then put single points in each of the other Knowledge skills once my Int bonus starts giving me extra skill points.

only1doug
2009-01-01, 08:44 AM
Well, it just seemed wierd that he'd have a subtype, since I don't think there's a category for 'a tiny haman wih a touch of elf and pixie (and wings) made by an epic wizard's spell'. Or is there? :o

I don't really want to abuse spells, just use them. xD

Humanoid Type with Feytoyched subtype (not an official subtype as far as i'm aware but houserule-able) check the draconic subtype from races of the dragon

Myou
2009-01-01, 08:52 AM
Humanoid Type with Feytoyched subtype (not an official subtype as far as i'm aware but houserule-able) check the draconic subtype from races of the dragon

I'll have a look, thanks.

Flickerdart
2009-01-01, 12:29 PM
Well, he gets 8 skill points a level, won't that be enough?

I don't actually have enough skill points to take conersational skills myself.
I've got Concentration 4, Decipher Script 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4.
I'm planning to max them all out each level, then put single points in each of the other Knowledge skills once my Int bonus starts giving me extra skill points.
Unless he's got that homebrewed Able Learner that you have, most of them are cross-class for him, so his ranks will be pretty low.

Myou
2009-01-01, 12:49 PM
Unless he's got that homebrewed Able Learner that you have, most of them are cross-class for him, so his ranks will be pretty low.

Well, it may be that our cleric will be the face, or possibly our rogue.
I don't really have the spare skill points to do it myself.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 01:09 PM
I meant that I could tell my familiar to keep watch and wake me and the party if anything approached. If not then the others can takes turns on watch.

I'm guessing that the sorceror will be the face, he has 18 cha after all.

I'm content to let him blast, but I want to be able to fight solo at higher levels if needed too.

alright give it a shot. soem campaigns alrm isnt even a thought, others it is a godsend in shiny armor of save-your-ashness in early levels.

essenially the face needs high chr, high wis and good skills. some wing it with base states and spells if nobody else in the party is going to do it. if the party sorc is such a person he may likely have comp languages. if so then it saves you from worrying about it. otherwise let him be the gunner untill 3rd-5th level. your higher spell level will trump his number of blasts. and by 5th craft wand comes into playand all the nice spells you wont want to memorize become little exp hits to be in your bag. from that point you cn focus on spells you want to cast.

Myou
2009-01-01, 01:22 PM
alright give it a shot. soem campaigns alrm isnt even a thought, others it is a godsend in shiny armor of save-your-ashness in early levels.

essenially the face needs high chr, high wis and good skills. some wing it with base states and spells if nobody else in the party is going to do it. if the party sorc is such a person he may likely have comp languages. if so then it saves you from worrying about it. otherwise let him be the gunner untill 3rd-5th level. your higher spell level will trump his number of blasts. and by 5th craft wand comes into playand all the nice spells you wont want to memorize become little exp hits to be in your bag. from that point you cn focus on spells you want to cast.

If it turns out that we need it I might justbe able to get it in scroll form or something.

I think our sorcerer is going to use Wis as a dump stat, but the cleric will have high wis and probably high Cha.

I'm not actually taking crafting feats though, I'll just be buying wands.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 01:35 PM
If it turns out that we need it I might justbe able to get it in scroll form or something.

I think our sorcerer is going to use Wis as a dump stat, but the cleric will have high wis and probably high Cha.

I'm not actually taking crafting feats though, I'll just be buying wands.

mind my curiousity for a moment but can I ask why no crafting at all? can understand wholly no potions, rods acceptable, some of the best rings require cleric spells, so get that, arms is always arguable if should be bothered, but wand is a godsend to the wizard almost as much a craft wonderous item. any ood spell you will need multiple times should be wnadified in early to mid levels

Myou
2009-01-01, 01:48 PM
mind my curiousity for a moment but can I ask why no crafting at all? can understand wholly no potions, rods acceptable, some of the best rings require cleric spells, so get that, arms is always arguable if should be bothered, but wand is a godsend to the wizard almost as much a craft wonderous item. any ood spell you will need multiple times should be wnadified in early to mid levels

It's because crafting take a lot of time and experience, and still costs a lot as well, so to me crafting feats other than Craft Contingent Spell, the only one I'm taking, are of very little use. I'd rather load up on metamagic and just spend a little more when I want to buy items. I probably won't even have time to craft anything for most of the game, our DM's not just gonig to let us sit about crafting all the time. He even told me outright that crafting feats aren't really worthwhile.

Edit: If I wanted to craft I'd play an artificer.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 02:02 PM
fair enough, just wondering.

and for full crafting extravaganza artificer is trumps, but don't dismiss crafting to be just for them or warlocks.

arguskos
2009-01-01, 02:05 PM
It's because crafting take a lot of time and experience, and still costs a lot as well, so to me crafting feats other than Craft Contingent Spell, the only one I'm taking, are of very little use. I'd rather load up on metamagic and just spend a little more when I want to buy items. I probably won't even have time to craft anything for most of the game, our DM's not just gonig to let us sit about crafting all the time. He even told me outright that crafting feats aren't really worthwhile.

Edit: If I wanted to craft I'd play an artificer.
That's a damn shame. Craft Wand and Craft Wonderous Item are great and useful feats for any adventuring party. I'd suggest that you may want to take Wonderous Item, since it is so useful (best crafting feat in the game, period).

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 02:08 PM
if dm says he wont have the time to devote to craftign though in that campaign it isnt worth taking to never have the chance to use.

arguskos
2009-01-01, 02:13 PM
if dm says he wont have the time to devote to craftign though in that campaign it isnt worth taking to never have the chance to use.
Well, you can make small stuff if the DM is reasonable. I mean, an adventuring party DOES take time off, and the wizard can use that time to make small stuff, like cheapo wands, minor wonderous items, etc.

It was a thought. Besides, he's being permitted to take Craft Contingent Spell, a feat that DOES have the time requirements too. :smallwink:

Myou
2009-01-01, 02:14 PM
That's a damn shame. Craft Wand and Craft Wonderous Item are great and useful feats for any adventuring party. I'd suggest that you may want to take Wonderous Item, since it is so useful (best crafting feat in the game, period).

It would look very useful if I couldn't just buy wonderous item I want without blowing huge amounts of XP and time (and gold too) making them. As it is I really can't see how it's a good feat at all.

And Craft Contingent Spell is far better. xD


if dm says he wont have the time to devote to craftign though in that campaign it isnt worth taking to never have the chance to use.

It's not that we'll get no free time for it, but there's no way he'll give us the huge amounts of time you'd need to craft anything worth having. I expect we'll get a few day here and there, not months.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 02:17 PM
fair enoguh but that is @ 12th level iirc, by that point if the dm allows enoguh times to characters as downtime, maybe crafting feats may seem viable to bother the players and the dm.

and at 10-15th level cwi is jsut so worth a feat.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 02:24 PM
It would look very useful if I couldn't just buy wonderous item I want without blowing huge amounts of XP and time (and gold too) making them. As it is I really can't see how it's a good feat at all.

And Craft Contingent Spell is far better. xD

It's not that we'll get no free time for it, but there's no way he'll give us the huge amounts of time you'd need to craft anything worth having. I expect we'll get a few day here and there, not months.

you need only a few days for a good wand with 50 charges and plenty of party saving abilities. half the gold of buyign the wand, a pittance of exp.

cwi-again half the gold a real drop in bucket exp wise (200,000gp max /25=8000xpmax per item in pre=epic levels.) and full custom value.

even scroll making now worth the day or two to do for some utilities.

edit looked up contingient spell.

ye gods man make scrolls or wands. or dare I say staves. and just learn the contingency spell. you arent a sorc. you dont need to worry about giving up a spell known for it. either pay a 1/4th the cost and time for the scroll or get 50times the usage for less han 8x the cost.

Myou
2009-01-01, 02:42 PM
you need only a few days for a good wand with 50 charges and plenty of party saving abilities. half the gold of buyign the wand, a pittance of exp.

cwi-again half the gold a real drop in bucket exp wise (200,000gp max /25=8000xpmax per item in pre=epic levels.) and full custom value.

even scroll making now worth the day or two to do for some utilities.

I'd refer to just spend the full gold, keep my XP and be able to cast a 2d4 Timestop once I get to the appropriate level. We have a lot of great feats to choose from you see, including some homebrew ones.

I just don't see the point of spending time crafting items at half price (more really, XP's very valuable) when I can buy them at full price and save my XP for crafting contingent spells on everyone in the party. Or, you know, levelling up. Anything really worth crafting seems to require far more XP than it's actally worth, anything that's cheap in XP is pretty cheap to buy to begin with.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 02:56 PM
I just don't see the point of spending time crafting items at half price (more really, XP's very valuable) when I can buy them at full price and save my XP for crafting contingent spells on everyone in the party. Or, you know, levelling up. Anything really worth crafting seems to require far more XP than it's actally worth, anything that's cheap in XP is pretty cheap to buy to begin with.

you can save a lot more by just casting contingency.

you are overpaying for contingent spell. wand or staff gets more use for the price you pay and cwi is jsut better round the board. scroll if best bet for singleuse spell cost and you already have it as a first level wizard.

Myou
2009-01-01, 03:19 PM
you can save a lot more by just casting contingency.

you are overpaying for contingent spell. wand or staff gets more use for the price you pay and cwi is jsut better round the board. scroll if best bet for singleuse spell cost and you already have it as a first level wizard.

Casting it only allows one contingency.

You may really like crafting but I just fail to see the value when it costs a feat and less than halves the cost. You can't get contingent spells any other way, magc items can be purchased.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-01, 07:39 PM
Casting it only allows one contingency.

You may really like crafting but I just fail to see the value when it costs a feat and less than halves the cost. You can't get contingent spells any other way, magc items can be purchased.

magc items cant be dispelled same way as crafted contingent spells.

the key flaw to your arguement is you are saying you dont likethe idea of crafting but ou want to craft something that is inferior to something you can craft that is ether 1) less useable than a wand or wonderous item, or 2)far easier to destroy (dispel magic)than a scroll or wonderous item.

if you don't agree with crafting at all I'll bite, to say you don't see the point in craftign something other than contingent spells, you have scribe scroll, get a crafter to make bages of holdign with the handy haversack ability to find stuff, then make scrolls for every contingent need you see making contingency for. cheaper and better, since it can be transfered to a umd rogue in dire urgency.

Myou
2009-01-01, 08:35 PM
magc items cant be dispelled same way as crafted contingent spells.

the key flaw to your arguement is you are saying you dont likethe idea of crafting but ou want to craft something that is inferior to something you can craft that is ether 1) less useable than a wand or wonderous item, or 2)far easier to destroy (dispel magic)than a scroll or wonderous item.

if you don't agree with crafting at all I'll bite, to say you don't see the point in craftign something other than contingent spells, you have scribe scroll, get a crafter to make bages of holdign with the handy haversack ability to find stuff, then make scrolls for every contingent need you see making contingency for. cheaper and better, since it can be transfered to a umd rogue in dire urgency.

You can't craft items that automatically teleport you to safety if you're targeted with a save or die. Nor can you craft items that automatically stop time when you say banana. The power of Contingent Spell is that it activates automatically and can save you from all sorts of situtations where you'd never get to use a scroll. Contingent spell just does things that wands and whatnot don't, and you can't buy contingent spells, if I could I would. And why not have one contingent that just protects you from dispel magic?

I can see how crafting is great in a campaign wth lots of downtime, not that much gold, and plenty of XP, but in ours it wouldn't be worth a feat, my DM even told me that.

I did consider Wonderous item, Rod and Staff, but I can just buy whatever items I want, right? So why would I spend a feat on getting items cheaper? Is the difference in price really that big a deal? Especially when you add in the XP cost? I don't really understand the advantage.

I'm starting to wonder though, about whether I should take a few craft feats instead of Enhance and Maximise....

Here, I'll post me current plaaned feats, bear in mind some are homebrew.

Free: Scribe Scroll

1) Spellbook Mastery: Adds the user's intelligence bonus to the number of new spells they get per level.

1) Able Learner: All skills are treated as class skills and cost only 1 point.

3) Eschew Materials: Allows the user to cast spells without requiring any material components.

5) Extend Spell: When applied to a spell this metamagic doubles the spell's duration and requires a slot 1 higher than the spell would normally use.

6) Easy Metamagic: When applied to a spell in combination with any other metamagic feats this metamagic reduces the level of spell slot required by 1. For example, a quickened, easy Magic Missile would be cast from a slot 3 higher than normal instead of 4. as with other metamagic slot adjustments this does not affect the spell's effective level.

9) Reach Spell: When applied to a touch spell this metamagic allows it to be cast as a ray instead and requires a slot 2 higher than the spell would normally use.

10) Chain Spell: When applied to a spell with a single target and range greater than touch this metamagic causes the spell to effect the primary
target normally and jump to a number of secondary targets up to the user's Caster level. The user chooses the targets. No creature can be targeted more than once or be more than 30ft from the primary target. If the spell does damage, the secondary targets take damage and are allowed a Reflex save to cut the damage in half again (even if the original spell did not allow a save). If the spell does not do damage, the secondary targets have a saving throw DC that is 4 lower. This metamagic requires a slot 3 higher than the spell would normally use.

12) Craft Contingent Spell: Allows the user to instill any spell the user knows in the subject at a cost of 100gp x caster level x spell level and 1/25th of this cost in XP, to be activated when a chosen condition arises. Any condition may be chosen. Creatures can bear a number of cotingent spells equal to their hit dice.

15) Quicken Spell: When applied to a spell this metamagic makes casting the spell a free action and requires a slot 4 higher than the spell would normally use.

15) Empower spell: When applied to a spell this metamagic increases all varibles by 50% and requires a slot 2 higher than the spell would normally use.

18) Delay Spell: When applied to a spell this metamagic maximises causes the spell to wait a number of rounds set by the caster before activating. The number of rounds must be between 1 and 5. Delayed spells do not require a spell slot higher than their normal slot.

20) Maximise Spell: When applied to a spell this metamagic maximises all variables and requires a slot 3 higher than the spell would normally use. This feat stacks with Empower Spell.


I've been considering Twin Spell or crafting feats. Advice anyone?

Flickerdart
2009-01-01, 10:30 PM
Your homebrewed Spellbook Mastery is, by your own logic, a waste of a feat, since you can buy and subsequently write into your spellbook all the spells you need as is, no need to waste a feat on doing so.

Myou
2009-01-02, 04:38 AM
Your homebrewed Spellbook Mastery is, by your own logic, a waste of a feat, since you can buy and subsequently write into your spellbook all the spells you need as is, no need to waste a feat on doing so.

I plan on buying spells as well, but I don't see how extra spells can be a waste, I can't buy every spell in the game.

Edit: That feat wasn't homebrew as far as I knew, did I miss something out of it?

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-02, 10:29 AM
I plan on buying spells as well, but I don't see how extra spells can be a waste, I can't buy every spell in the game.

Edit: That feat wasn't homebrew as far as I knew, did I miss something out of it?

in theory yeah you can or downtime research for it. but if you guys run a tight ship with little to no downtime I'll bite it is useful in the fi and only if factor

cwi can make anything not covered by an existing feat. reactionary item, like a 1/day reactionary teleport effect whenever you are going to be targeted by save or die? orto make it dirty cheap and fast a 1 charge item? and all of then not easily destroyed by a dispel check (disjunction is a different story)

if you want to ditch crafting focus on metamagic, more power to you. ditch craft contingent get twin and be pretty good to go.

able learner is nice if and only if you are looking for many prcs to get to. get soem preapproval for prcs before fully implimenting a build. incantrix would be beautiful for your metamagic urges, but requies iron will. geometer at 2nd level speeds up the time and lessens cost to bet more spells in the spell book by scribing (complete arcane), so helpful if wantign to realy add many spells to spellbooks w/o time and page constaints

Flickerdart
2009-01-02, 11:58 AM
I plan on buying spells as well, but I don't see how extra spells can be a waste, I can't buy every spell in the game.

Edit: That feat wasn't homebrew as far as I knew, did I miss something out of it?
The closest "real" feat to that, by name and function, is the Spell Mastery Feat (PhB) that lets you memorize INT number of spells that you know without a spellbook, so unless you're in the habit of using it as a Frisbee, don't bother. As for the second part...Yes, you can. Or at least all the good ones, there aren't as many as you think.

Myou
2009-01-02, 02:43 PM
in theory yeah you can or downtime research for it. but if you guys run a tight ship with little to no downtime I'll bite it is useful in the fi and only if factor

cwi can make anything not covered by an existing feat. reactionary item, like a 1/day reactionary teleport effect whenever you are going to be targeted by save or die? orto make it dirty cheap and fast a 1 charge item? and all of then not easily destroyed by a dispel check (disjunction is a different story)

if you want to ditch crafting focus on metamagic, more power to you. ditch craft contingent get twin and be pretty good to go.

able learner is nice if and only if you are looking for many prcs to get to. get soem preapproval for prcs before fully implimenting a build. incantrix would be beautiful for your metamagic urges, but requies iron will. geometer at 2nd level speeds up the time and lessens cost to bet more spells in the spell book by scribing (complete arcane), so helpful if wantign to realy add many spells to spellbooks w/o time and page constaints

Well I'll just have to ask my DM and see exactly how much downtime we'll get.

Can I really craft contingent items using CWI?
also, how useful is it to craft rods? I'm starting to consider both.

I'm not looking for any prestige classes, I'm planning on just being a pure wizard.
As for Able Learner, I'm just taking that so I can make out my Spot, Listen, Hide and Move silently skills.


The closest "real" feat to that, by name and function, is the Spell Mastery Feat (PhB) that lets you memorize INT number of spells that you know without a spellbook, so unless you're in the habit of using it as a Frisbee, don't bother. As for the second part...Yes, you can. Or at least all the good ones, there aren't as many as you think.

Well, I know I got this feat somewhere, even if you've not heard of it. It was definately written in one of the D&D books I looked through. It's not Spell Mastery either.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-03, 11:00 AM
Well I'll just have to ask my DM and see exactly how much downtime we'll get.

Can I really craft contingent items using CWI?
also, how useful is it to craft rods? I'm starting to consider both.

I'm not looking for any prestige classes, I'm planning on just being a pure wizard.
As for Able Learner, I'm just taking that so I can make out my Spot, Listen, Hide and Move silently skills.


rod are useful primarily for metamagic rods.those at higer level play come in handy.

many elixers of higher level spells in books require cwi not brew potion (silly 3rd level limit.I want my elixers of youth!), and those are one-shot use activated. the only issue is pricing cwi contingent may exceed craft contingent spell in the factor that it will have contingency added to the requirements. but with the mitigating factors it should be still virtually similar to the pricing of a contingent spell crafted.

no prcs shock me. as do the skill choices. with a little tweaking on some skills and a willingness to take disable device and search, you can go into unseen seer then pick up escapeartist & decipher to hit some arcane trickster with no caster level loss.

but that is ignoring the fact not everyone wants to be a high wizard who stabs people in the back pretty well.

onto your metamagic if not going the beautifully broken incantrix for that, then there are some other fun options. chain spells with reach is superhappybuffmonkey all allies. chainspell with empowered ray =superhappyenervation all enemies in area.

Flickerdart
2009-01-03, 12:02 PM
Well, I know I got this feat somewhere, even if you've not heard of it. It was definately written in one of the D&D books I looked through. It's not Spell Mastery either.
I've looked through D&D feat indexes, no such thing exists far as I can tell.

Myou
2009-01-03, 02:25 PM
rod are useful primarily for metamagic rods.those at higer level play come in handy.

many elixers of higher level spells in books require cwi not brew potion (silly 3rd level limit.I want my elixers of youth!), and those are one-shot use activated. the only issue is pricing cwi contingent may exceed craft contingent spell in the factor that it will have contingency added to the requirements. but with the mitigating factors it should be still virtually similar to the pricing of a contingent spell crafted.

no prcs shock me. as do the skill choices. with a little tweaking on some skills and a willingness to take disable device and search, you can go into unseen seer then pick up escapeartist & decipher to hit some arcane trickster with no caster level loss.

but that is ignoring the fact not everyone wants to be a high wizard who stabs people in the back pretty well.

onto your metamagic if not going the beautifully broken incantrix for that, then there are some other fun options. chain spells with reach is superhappybuffmonkey all allies. chainspell with empowered ray =superhappyenervation all enemies in area.
Is it better to just buy metamagic rods then, instead of the cost of a feat?

Bear in mind that I'm pretty new to the game and I don't know the PrC's that well yet. The incantrix looks interesting, but I don't really want to bar any schools, and as I understand it I would have to for that class, is that right? Is there any way around it?

I've never even heard of the Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster, what are they and where are they from?

Assuming I started playing without deciding if I would take a PrC, I could just wait until I reached level 11, right? Also, if you get the full caster advancement from some PrCs then what advantage in there in not taking one, or more?

Chained reach/buffs are indeed why I chose those two feats, yeah.


I've looked through D&D feat indexes, no such thing exists far as I can tell.

Well it's not like it just appeared out if thin air, it was in a book somewhere.

Flickerdart
2009-01-03, 04:07 PM
Well it's not like it just appeared out if thin air, it was in a book somewhere.
Could've been a 3rd party supplement or a misreading. Nothing like that exists in official WotC materials far as I can see.

Myou
2009-01-03, 04:40 PM
Could've been a 3rd party supplement or a misreading. Nothing like that exists in official WotC materials far as I can see.

Probably a 3rd party supplement someone had then.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 12:48 AM
Is it better to just buy metamagic rods then, instead of the cost of a feat?

Bear in mind that I'm pretty new to the game and I don't know the PrC's that well yet. The incantrix looks interesting, but I don't really want to bar any schools, and as I understand it I would have to for that class, is that right? Is there any way around it?

I've never even heard of the Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster, what are they and where are they from?

Assuming I started playing without deciding if I would take a PrC, I could just wait until I reached level 11, right? Also, if you get the full caster advancement from some PrCs then what advantage in there in not taking one, or more?

Chained reach/buffs are indeed why I chose those two feats, yeah.


arcane trickster is in the dmg/sdr. it has requirements for sneak attack 2d6 though. unseen seer is in complete mage. its skill requirements at highest 8 ranks, and requires knowing some divination spells. adds to your choice of sneak attack/skirkmish/suddenstrike, some boosts to divination spell caster levels and adds skill points perlevel.

if you wait for level 11 to take a prc you have less options. recommend looking over prcs and considing options so you choose feats that qualify you for it. if you were a specialist, master specialist (complete mage)is a given since it is easy to get into by 4th level and net some excellent benefits. incantrix (players guide to faerun) is a thing of beauty for a metamagic master. you'd have to bar a school but by the time you qualify you may find you might not use a lot of enchantment, or evocation or a bunch of other options. so dont rule incantrix out yet. divine oracle (complete divine) is pretty decent prc not limited to divine characters.

things to consider is what are you building. if you eventually want to go archmage, and would be willing to go specialist, you lose two wizard feats but the master spec give you spell focus spellcraft in there. think about a begining and an end for the character then check books to see what best fits the build. the disadvatage in making prc over straight wizard is familiar advancement (not overly important) and feats if and only if its a full caster prc that a staight wizard can qualify.

and yeah you could just buy the rods, some other rods are nice, too, but nothing that makes me say "this is a must have for a caster" above and beyond metamagics.

making them however can get to be nice to give to the cleric & sorc too. biggest ease in multicaster parties is that many can take single craft feats and cover multiple uses. if cleric taken craft wand rogue can umd or ranger can jsut use to be backup healing if excrement hits the rotating blades. o if the cleric takes up you already have scrolls to back up the sorc if you were out of room or commission and some usefulness was needed beyond his capacity. if the sorc took a craft feat feel sorry for him. but if he were to bother taking arms and armor he could enhance equipment of oher party members to at least get bonuses to +5 on gear. or repair sundered magical equipment (half requirements to repair than make from scratch) many things to consider is party synergy.

at very least to go 20 levels of izard isnt really underpowered provided you live long enough to get to level5. the spellbook feat seems odd to me but sicne I dontknow the dm style or the setting offhand it might be a lifesaver. same with eschew materials. some dms dont sweat small stuff. some do. for those that do eschew adds such fun function to a mage who doesnt need to hit every swapmeet to find various animal figuines fo foci for spells. if your dm is the kind that has the party robbed, naked and likely without skin at soem point, eschew is beautiful and the spellbook feat will bableto refil spells you need.

Myou
2009-01-04, 07:03 AM
arcane trickster is in the dmg/sdr. it has requirements for sneak attack 2d6 though. unseen seer is in complete mage. its skill requirements at highest 8 ranks, and requires knowing some divination spells. adds to your choice of sneak attack/skirkmish/suddenstrike, some boosts to divination spell caster levels and adds skill points perlevel.

if you wait for level 11 to take a prc you have less options. recommend looking over prcs and considing options so you choose feats that qualify you for it. if you were a specialist, master specialist (complete mage)is a given since it is easy to get into by 4th level and net some excellent benefits. incantrix (players guide to faerun) is a thing of beauty for a metamagic master. you'd have to bar a school but by the time you qualify you may find you might not use a lot of enchantment, or evocation or a bunch of other options. so dont rule incantrix out yet. divine oracle (complete divine) is pretty decent prc not limited to divine characters.

things to consider is what are you building. if you eventually want to go archmage, and would be willing to go specialist, you lose two wizard feats but the master spec give you spell focus spellcraft in there. think about a begining and an end for the character then check books to see what best fits the build. the disadvatage in making prc over straight wizard is familiar advancement (not overly important) and feats if and only if its a full caster prc that a staight wizard can qualify.

and yeah you could just buy the rods, some other rods are nice, too, but nothing that makes me say "this is a must have for a caster" above and beyond metamagics.

making them however can get to be nice to give to the cleric & sorc too. biggest ease in multicaster parties is that many can take single craft feats and cover multiple uses. if cleric taken craft wand rogue can umd or ranger can jsut use to be backup healing if excrement hits the rotating blades. o if the cleric takes up you already have scrolls to back up the sorc if you were out of room or commission and some usefulness was needed beyond his capacity. if the sorc took a craft feat feel sorry for him. but if he were to bother taking arms and armor he could enhance equipment of oher party members to at least get bonuses to +5 on gear. or repair sundered magical equipment (half requirements to repair than make from scratch) many things to consider is party synergy.

at very least to go 20 levels of izard isnt really underpowered provided you live long enough to get to level5. the spellbook feat seems odd to me but sicne I dontknow the dm style or the setting offhand it might be a lifesaver. same with eschew materials. some dms dont sweat small stuff. some do. for those that do eschew adds such fun function to a mage who doesnt need to hit every swapmeet to find various animal figuines fo foci for spells. if your dm is the kind that has the party robbed, naked and likely without skin at soem point, eschew is beautiful and the spellbook feat will bableto refil spells you need.

Arcane Trickster ad Unseen Seer don't really look like classes I want to try.

Incantatar (male Incantatrix) does look good, but it has a lot of rather useless features (for me) and needs Iron Will. Perhaps I can talk to my DM about a custom PrC after a few levels, based on the Incantatrix but dropping the features I don't need in exchange for keeping access to all schools.

I don't think our party will have much synergy. Our sorceror and cleric player hates spending XP on crafting and our fighter and rogue player doesn't seem to be a great team player.

The spellbook feat will save me gold and time, and allow me access to spells that I might never find otherwise. Also, my charcter has a spell-like ability that summons a backup spellbook with all of his spells in it that i can use until I replace my spellbook (I have to copy them into a new book and send the backup away again with the spell-like ability though, I can't just use it to get free spellbooks.). And as for Eschew, my DM said that without it, yes, I'd have to count out bat poo for fireballs. ><

Triaxx
2009-01-04, 08:39 AM
My personal preference is to sorcerors, but my three picks are: Grease, Magic Missile, and Enlarge Person.

Grease is for the enemy, cast it so it falls just short of your fighters. As the enemy approaches they slip and fall for the fighters to pound on with AoO's.

Magic Missile means you can shoot and hit things that even the fighters can't.

Enlarge person gives your fighters a power and size advantage over the enemy.

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 08:49 AM
Arcane Trickster ad Unseen Seer don't really look like classes I want to try.

Incantatar (male Incantatrix) does look good, but it has a lot of rather useless features (for me) and needs Iron Will. Perhaps I can talk to my DM about a custom PrC after a few levels, based on the Incantatrix but dropping the features I don't need in exchange for keeping access to all schools.

I don't think our party will have much synergy. Our sorceror and cleric player hates spending XP on crafting and our fighter and rogue player doesn't seem to be a great team player.

The spellbook feat will save me gold and time, and allow me access to spells that I might never find otherwise. Also, my charcter has a spell-like ability that summons a backup spellbook with all of his spells in it that i can use until I replace my spellbook (I have to copy them into a new book and send the backup away again with the spell-like ability though, I can't just use it to get free spellbooks.). And as for Eschew, my DM said that without it, yes, I'd have to count out bat poo for fireballs. ><


ok for the first few feats are lifesavers if you arnt gettign the big downtime for scribing in the big cities, then yeah those feats are very nice for the campaign you are in. your sla seens kinda too wizard-nifty. but more power to you (of course since scribign twice, Iagain suggest geometer

synergy just means covering bases. dont take an evocation spell the sorc will take or the cleric likes to pray for(or at all if you believe some on this board.) dont let every noncaster be a long sword/shortsword twf build.

given the sla on your race think the custom prc route might be doable. to be onest the sla your character already has might be enoguh to motivate me to take up a prc just for it.

and yeah not everyone wants to be mage/rogues. the joy of that combo is the div bonuses, skill bonuses and sneak attack, but thats if and only if you reallywant it.

Myou
2009-01-04, 10:28 AM
ok for the first few feats are lifesavers if you arnt gettign the big downtime for scribing in the big cities, then yeah those feats are very nice for the campaign you are in. your sla seens kinda too wizard-nifty. but more power to you (of course since scribign twice, Iagain suggest geometer

synergy just means covering bases. dont take an evocation spell the sorc will take or the cleric likes to pray for(or at all if you believe some on this board.) dont let every noncaster be a long sword/shortsword twf build.

given the sla on your race think the custom prc route might be doable. to be onest the sla your character already has might be enoguh to motivate me to take up a prc just for it.

and yeah not everyone wants to be mage/rogues. the joy of that combo is the div bonuses, skill bonuses and sneak attack, but thats if and only if you reallywant it.

Well, I scribe once, into my main spellbook, and the backup book updates automatically. it's if I lose my main book that I'll have to summon the backup to copy spells from to make a new main book. I'm just not able to have more than one automatic backup book, so once I've made a new main book the backup has to be sent back to whereever it comes from again before I can summon it in the future (it has it's own pocket dimension). So effecively I only pay the double scribing cost if I lose my main book, and since the new spells at each level are free the Geometer doesn't really look like the optimum class for me.

Oh, yes, the scoreror and I are co-ordinating there, yes. And excluding the cleric we only have my ranger and a fighter, and my ranger's going for archery, so I'm not too worried about low damage, innacurate TWF builds.

Well, our DM is generous and very open to letting us make homebrew components, as long as we follow standard rules, so hopefuly he'll agree to it!

I'm surprised you'd take a PrC just for that SLA though, it's mainly just insurance against a lost/stolen spellbook.

A mage/rogue wouln't be bad, it's just not really how I want to go with this character.

Myou
2009-01-04, 10:36 AM
My personal preference is to sorcerors, but my three picks are: Grease, Magic Missile, and Enlarge Person.

Grease is for the enemy, cast it so it falls just short of your fighters. As the enemy approaches they slip and fall for the fighters to pound on with AoO's.

Magic Missile means you can shoot and hit things that even the fighters can't.

Enlarge person gives your fighters a power and size advantage over the enemy.

It's funny, our sorcerer hates Enlarge Person. I have no idea why. xD

I definitely plan to take all three though! Thanks for the tip about Grease!

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 11:49 AM
Well, I scribe once, into my main spellbook, and the backup book updates automatically. it's if I lose my main book that I'll have to summon the backup to copy spells from to make a new main book. I'm just not able to have more than one automatic backup book, so once I've made a new main book the backup has to be sent back to whereever it comes from again before I can summon it in the future (it has it's own pocket dimension). So effecively I only pay the double scribing cost if I lose my main book, and since the new spells at each level are free the Geometer doesn't really look like the optimum class for me.

Oh, yes, the scoreror and I are co-ordinating there, yes. And excluding the cleric we only have my ranger and a fighter, and my ranger's going for archery, so I'm not too worried about low damage, innacurate TWF builds.

Well, our DM is generous and very open to letting us make homebrew components, as long as we follow standard rules, so hopefuly he'll agree to it!

I'm surprised you'd take a PrC just for that SLA though, it's mainly just insurance against a lost/stolen spellbook.

A mage/rogue wouln't be bad, it's just not really how I want to go with this character.

anthing that helps mitigate the core weakness of the wizard class (spellbok destruction) is worth 1 level dip. heck spellsword is worth a 1 level dip for possible shield use if mithral bucklers arent prevalent.

the twf issue was only jsut saying people in the party should know what each other is doing to get a feel of filling in gaps.

geometer inst exactly optimum, but was an idea every spell only takes 24 hr to scribe and one page in spell book. if needin to scribe two books at cost, its worth the 2 level dip. epspecially if not ale to make and keep extra blessed books

Myou
2009-01-04, 12:39 PM
anthing that helps mitigate the core weakness of the wizard class (spellbok destruction) is worth 1 level dip. heck spellsword is worth a 1 level dip for possible shield use if mithral bucklers arent prevalent.

the twf issue was only jsut saying people in the party should know what each other is doing to get a feel of filling in gaps.

geometer inst exactly optimum, but was an idea every spell only takes 24 hr to scribe and one page in spell book. if needin to scribe two books at cost, its worth the 2 level dip. epspecially if not ale to make and keep extra blessed books

Ahh, I see what you mean, yeah. It's not a class feature though, it's a racial ability, my character was created by an epic wizard as a companion and apprentice.

I can see why.

Luckily I only need to scribe one book as normal.