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View Full Version : How to slay a deity? (3,5)



drevil
2008-12-31, 05:44 AM
Bane piss me off. And now I want to get rid of him :)

Is it possible for an epic adventuring group alone to kill a God in Faerun?
How should it be done?



Bane greater deity
Fighter15/Blackguard10/Cleric10/Wizard10/Rouge20
HP: 1075
Initative: +13
Speed: 60ft
AC: 82
Attack: +83/+78/+73/+68 (always recieves a 20)
Damage: 1D3+37
Reach: 5ft
Special: DR 52/+4, Aura, SR49
Saves: Fort+79 Ref+72 Will+72
Abilities: Str 36 Dex29 Con28 Int30 Wis28 Cha42
Lots of Skills and feats
Divine Immunities: ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, disease ++
Spell-Like Abilities: Many arcane and divine spells (DCs are 43 + spell level)
Senses: Bane can see, hear, touch and smell at a distance of seventeen miles.

Maybe I should start with a lesser deity?
Eilistraee Bard20/Fighter15/Cleric5


Source: Faiths and Pantheons (Forgotten Realms)

Curmudgeon
2008-12-31, 05:59 AM
Faiths and Pantheons is a 3.0 book. The contents need to be converted to 3.5 rules. For instance, damage reduction is quite different; there is no such thing as DR x/+4 in 3.5.

Eloel
2008-12-31, 06:05 AM
It takes 20 spells on average to kill anything. It's called "waiting for the enemy to roll 1 on his save against save-or-die (wail of the banshee is an example)".

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-31, 06:22 AM
Properly statted out and equipped, you could easily design a non-epic pixie hellfire glaivelock that would kill that Bane in a single round. 1000 HP is not so much for them. Also, Batman Wizard can kill anything that isn't another Batman Wizard. Everyone knows that, but I'll mention it so you don't have to! :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 06:38 AM
It takes 20 spells on average to kill anything. It's called "waiting for the enemy to roll 1 on his save against save-or-die (wail of the banshee is an example)".

Salient Divine Abilities alter that a bit; Greater Deities are always assumed to roll 20 on everything. Another Salient Divine Ability is to cast every spell up to level 9 and alter reality, so it's not THAT easy to kill a God. Oh, and that whole omniscience within their own plane-thing and such.

Superglucose
2008-12-31, 06:45 AM
How would a batman wizard go about it? It can't use save-or-die effects, or any effects that call for a save because the god auto-saves (assumed to roll a 20 every time), Batman doesn't have the Orb Of spells or the necessary cheese to utilize them properly...

maybe... he has 65 class levels. Oh but he's immune to energy drain so enervation is out.

I could see one of those Gish builds doing it... if it could land the touch attack. What's the breakdown on that AC?

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-31, 06:48 AM
Properly statted out and equipped, you could easily design a non-epic pixie hellfire glaivelock that would kill that Bane in a single round. 1000 HP is not so much for them. Also, Batman Wizard can kill anything that isn't another Batman Wizard. Everyone knows that, but I'll mention it so you don't have to! :smallwink: Eldritch Glaive is still subject to SR, of which Bane has 49.

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 06:50 AM
Eh, to quote Emperor Tippy: "Salient Divine Abilities have nothing on Epic Spellcasting." You can just abuse Epic Spellcasting to cast some world ending-spells, and you can Gaterape Solars to aid you in the casting.

That said, every God qualifies for Epic Spellcasting and they're pretty old so you'd assume if that were viable, they'd have done it already. Really though, Epic Spellcasting is a great starting point. Then just buff yourself skyhigh and got cut his head. Or go whittle down his contingencies anyways.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-31, 06:55 AM
It takes 20 spells on average to kill anything. It's called "waiting for the enemy to roll 1 on his save against save-or-die (wail of the banshee is an example)". Sorry, but you don't understand probabilities. There's a 36% chance of not rolling a 1 on 20 d20 rolls (.95^20). Your average (50%) chance of hitting a 1 comes at 13.5 rolls (log .5/log .95). It takes 58.4 rolls to have a 95% confidence in rolling a single 1 (log .05/log .95), and 89.8 rolls to have a 99% confidence.

TempusCCK
2008-12-31, 06:57 AM
Contact Banes arch-enemy, they will lead you to an ancient artifact that will allow you to kill a God, and probably had something to do with the mythology of your world as well. Use pandoras box, err, said artifact, to kill Ares, err, Bane, and bam, there you go.

Expect there to be a lengthy dungeon crawl and many minotaurs along the way... Better become a murdering sociopath to accomplish this goal...

Fan
2008-12-31, 06:59 AM
Three words: Origin of species.
With this, and the proper amount of gate rape you can not only make a creature that the gods themselves qiver in thought of, but you can give it a permanent mindswitch ability usable 1/day for the ability to CAST EPIC SPELLS WHILE in that form. I'd say that your now [insert arbitrary number here] physical stats in addition to your already insane mentals You can easily take down a over diety even.

PinkysBrain
2008-12-31, 07:08 AM
Gods have defacto infinite resources, they also have a lot of followers.

Contingency spells? He has them by the boatloat.

Immunity to AMF? He has it.

See you coming from a mile away? He will.

Hear you planning from a month away? He will.

Any cheese you can pull he can pull better, anything you can do he can do better than you. Another god to shield you from Bane's sight and some deus ex machina artifact which shuts down most of his defenses so you have a shot seem the only way.

Zen Master
2008-12-31, 07:23 AM
Statting anything out only means someone, somewhere, is going to figure it's supposed to be killable - and find a way.

As I see it, bane is statted solely to look awesome compared to a level 1 fighter, or to the King of Cormyr, or to some other published material.

When he needs to be compared to something a super optimizer could dream up, he needs to be re-imagined accordingly. Though quite likely, finding something Tippy couldn't figure a way to beat is likely a job for .... Tippy. That's almost religious. Can God create an object so heavy that he himself cannot lift it.

Oh - and happy new year.

Superglucose
2008-12-31, 07:29 AM
Well we know pun-pun can do it so that's no help at all.

What we need is something that can deal out over a thousand damage, no save. Again, what's the breakdown on that armor class?

Pity true strike doesn't auto roll a 20.

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 07:43 AM
Your average Charger has no trouble dealing 1000s of damage with no save. The problem comes from the fact that the God is like to have a dozen Contingencies, a dozen Contingent spells, see you coming miles away, has the ability to cast every spell known to mortals and then some, has Epic Spellcasting, has the ability to know things related to his portfolios, rolls 20 on every die roll (which bodes ill for you since he knows you're coming and can cast e.g. Time Stop). You'll need to make a dozen lethal-like assaults to whittle down his contingencies (or somehow disarm epic contingencies) while piercing all his magical protections (and likely more than a few artifacts) and somehow reaching him and staying alive all the time. He can also Alter Reality on his plane, which isn't really cool.

There is a way to go about it though. Being f*cking intelligent is enough. You need to remember that gods have higher mental stats, yes, but they have a huge weakness; they are simply embodiments of their ideal. Their mind doesn't work like a mortal mind; it doesn't extend outside their portfolio. That's why the death match in 4.0 FR took place even though both knew they were decieved; their minds simply dictated that their honor requires them to finish the fight anyways. They're also pretty ****ing powerful which leads to arrogance when it comes to dealing with mortals; they don't really plan for mortals since they're too busy planning for each other and changing the cosmos.

Do the Raistlin:
1) Device a plan that's underneath the notice of the said Gods, or amuses them or something.
2) Make them leave their adobe. Depending on the God and what ideals they embody, there're ways to go about this. When they're not on their plane, they at least aren't shaping the reality to not contain you. Preferably make them break some treaties to anger some other gods too.
3) Pack some disruption. Something to get rid of their magical defenses. Preferably an artifact capable of truly slaying them too, or other gods' power (see Raistlin again) or some such.
4) Prepare for all mortal spells. Gods can pretty much cast them on whim, but being immune isn't much to ask from an epic character.
5) Preferably don't give 'em actions. You're probably dead if you do. Remember, automatic 20 on every die roll.

That's about it. Strike them down with all of your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-31, 08:22 AM
Contact Banes arch-enemy, they will lead you to an ancient artifact that will allow you to kill a God, and probably had something to do with the mythology of your world as well. Use pandoras box, err, said artifact, to kill Ares, err, Bane, and bam, there you go.

This, pretty much. There's ways to kill deities in FR, and none of them have anything to do with the rules. A divine patron is pretty much a must, and you won't get that easily when it's not the Time of Troubles - the deities have rules from Ao they're supposed to obey.

Epic spells won't even work, because deities know weeks in advance when you're even planning to research a spell to use against them. Even if Bane doesn't know it, several other deities will, and they'll stop you, because mortals aren't supposed to cast magic to destroy deities - it messes up the way the world works.

bosssmiley
2008-12-31, 08:51 AM
Creatures with Divine Rank don't auto-fail on rolls. In fact Greater Gods automatically maximise all rolls they make. Oh, and they get initiative automatically...and have Portfolio sense which means they saw your candy mortal ass coming a season ago.

Played by a half-intelligent person anything with DvR just...wins. End of story. :smalleek:

That said: Re-create the Karsus' Avatar spell. Aim it at Bane.
Come back from beyond-the-dead with The Final Word. Rampage across the Planes Tenebrous-style.

Kesnit
2008-12-31, 09:01 AM
Eldritch Glaive is still subject to SR, of which Bane has 49.

Add Vitriolic Blast, which does not allow SR.

only1doug
2008-12-31, 09:16 AM
I could see one of those Gish builds doing it... if it could land the touch attack. What's the breakdown on that AC?

AC 82= +9 dex, +17 divine, +30 Natural, +16 deflection
touch AC 52 = +9 dex, +17 divine, +16 deflection

Zenos
2008-12-31, 09:20 AM
Actually, if the challenge rating is 65+, and the PCs are all of the apporpriate level, then a mere 49 SR will probably not do much...

only1doug
2008-12-31, 09:24 AM
Add Vitriolic Blast, which does not allow SR.

which unfortunately changes the damage type to Acid, which Bane is immune to (although OP didn't list it)
Immunities List (continued) Acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, mind affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment.

Kesnit
2008-12-31, 09:27 AM
which unfortunately changes the damage type to Acid, which Bane is immune to (although OP didn't list it).

(sigh) So much for my brilliant plans of deicide. :smallbiggrin:

Fighteer
2008-12-31, 09:36 AM
Deific stats are merely guidelines for a DM who wants them to appear in a campaign and kick ass. As was already stated above, no characters, epic or otherwise, should stand even the slightest chance of just walking up to a Greater Deity and killing it no matter how much preparation they put in. If the deity itself doesn't just alter reality you out of existence (or do something less final but just as effective like turn all your gold to lead, drop you back to level 1, erase your memory, change your class to Commoner, etc.) the rest of the pantheon will step in to make sure you don't hose things up.

Now, if you go into a campaign with the specific objective of killing or overthrowing one or more gods, then you should expect to get your hands on some artifact (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin), key (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotCoupon), or divine assistance that will allow you to break down your opponent's defenses and do the job. But no sane DM will ever allow you to arbitrarily attack and defeat a god.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-31, 09:45 AM
Do the Ice Assassin trick, create a copy of Bane using the Ice Assassin Spell: have it make you a proxy, give your divine rank to a squirrel or some other critter, repeat as many times as you want, retract the divine ranks to get Salient Divine Abilities oozing out of every single orifice. :smallbiggrin:

drevil
2008-12-31, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the ideas, fellows.

Before "The Return of Bane", he was killed by Torm (Paladin20/Fighter20/Cleric10).


Bane is well protected by his divinity, immunities and spells.

AC: 82 (+9Dex, +17Divine, +30Natural, +16Deflection)
Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunnig, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment.
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Form, Alter reality, Alter size ++
Senses: Bane can see, hear, touch and smell at a distance of seventeen miles.
Portfolio Sense: Bane sense any event involving strife, hatret, tyranny, of fear 17 days before and after the event occur.


If you find a way to bypass this, I will personally admire you for a while.

Dogmantra
2008-12-31, 10:17 AM
Sounds like a job for the anti-osmium bomb!

I can't find it at the moment, but wait for someone else to give you the link.

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-31, 10:42 AM
find the Jathiman Dagger

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-31, 11:11 AM
which unfortunately changes the damage type to Acid, which Bane is immune to (although OP didn't list it)
Immunities List (continued) Acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, mind affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment.

Admixture Gloves, perchance? I can think of a few damage types he's not immune to. And he's definitely not immune to the Hellfire damage portion because almost nothing is, including fire elementals.

I'm just saying by the stats he doesn't seem that tough. He only wins automatically if the DM protects him with omniscience or omnipotence he doesn't have in his statblock. That really doesn't make much sense in FR, as a lot of the FR gods were mortals at one point that killed a god and took his/her stuff. If any pantheon is vulnerable to being slain by mortal creatures, they would be at the top of the list.

Now if you asked if you could slay, for example, Pelor or Zeus I would say probably not if you're a mortal. You'd need plothooks, Titan blood or a heroic destiny to do something like that to them. Those aren't gods that regularly expose themselves to being killed.

Morty
2008-12-31, 11:21 AM
I'm just saying by the stats he doesn't seem that tough. He only wins automatically if the DM protects him with omniscience or omnipotence he doesn't have in his statblock. That really doesn't make much sense in FR, as a lot of the FR gods were mortals at one point that killed a god and took his/her stuff. If any pantheon is vulnerable to being slain by mortal creatures, they would be at the top of the list.


Most of such killings took place during the Time of Troubles. Also, if I recall correctly, epic spellcasting is banned on Faerun by Mystra, so it wouldn't work.

AmberVael
2008-12-31, 11:39 AM
Well then, instead of Vitrolic Blast, just take the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species. Turns your Eldritch blast into a supernatural ability permanently.

Fighteer
2008-12-31, 11:52 AM
Well then, instead of Vitrolic Blast, just take the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species. Turns your Eldritch blast into a supernatural ability permanently.
So you're imagining a reasonable scenario in which you could inflict 1000+ points of damage with this ability before Bane uses alter reality to wipe your entire bloodline from existence or turn you into a puddle of smelly goo? Especially since his portfolio means he'd have a minimum of 17 days warning that you are coming no matter what precautions you take.

Mr. Zook
2008-12-31, 12:01 PM
Couldn't you steal his power by stealing his believers? If a god has no believers, whouldn't he lose his deity status, and thus his portfolio. Then he becomes just an epic NPC, which is about a million times easier, I think everyone will agree. You could steal the believers by creating a new very similar god and dragging all of Bane's followers to your newly created god. Then, you don't have to deal with his uber powers, which is the most challenging part.

Malacode
2008-12-31, 12:16 PM
Again, the omniscence kinda takes care of that. I'm sure with his Int score of 30 he'd think of a way not only around your plotting, but to have it backfire on you. Even if you do it, this isn't the Discworld. Gods aren't just gods because they have followers. They don't just exist because of belief. They exist irregardless.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-31, 12:21 PM
I'm just saying by the stats he doesn't seem that tough. He only wins automatically if the DM protects him with omniscience or omnipotence he doesn't have in his statblock. That really doesn't make much sense in FR, as a lot of the FR gods were mortals at one point that killed a god and took his/her stuff. If any pantheon is vulnerable to being slain by mortal creatures, they would be at the top of the list.

The omniscience and (relative) omnipotence are in the rules.

Also, the mortals were able to kill the deities because the deities were mortals. That's the entire point of the Time of Troubles - the deities were powerful, but they were mortal. And Bane (the only mortal I recall slaying deities during the ToT offhand) still used a super-artifact sword that was specifically able to slay gods.


Most of such killings took place during the Time of Troubles. Also, if I recall correctly, epic spellcasting is banned on Faerun by Mystra, so it wouldn't work.

Nope, it's not. Epic spellcasting is allowed. Elven High Magic, for instance, is Epic Spellcasting. The rules make this stupidly confusing by offering Netherese Epic Spells, which would not exist.

The Netherese used 10th-, 11th-, etc. level spells (not epic spells, but spells of specific levels above 9th), which were "blocked" or "removed" by the new Mystra after Mystrul was destroyed by Whats-his-name using a 15th-level spell or somesuch (and the way the Weave works was changed to make them impossible or something; no more winds of magic).


Couldn't you steal his power by stealing his believers? If a god has no believers, whouldn't he lose his deity status, and thus his portfolio. Then he becomes just an epic NPC, which is about a million times easier, I think everyone will agree. You could steal the believers by creating a new very similar god and dragging all of Bane's followers to your newly created god. Then, you don't have to deal with his uber powers, which is the most challenging part.

It's not that simple. Cyric mostly did that to Bane already, destroying his church and decimating his followers and "killing" Bane, but Bane came back as Iyacthu "Baneson" Xvim, then burst out of Xvim as himself... the powe rof FR deities is not really determined by the numbers of their worshippers, and deities that die (other than in the ToT) tend to be reborn as other deities of similar aspect, or to meld or whatever. (And even then, some priests are able to channel the power of dead deities.)

RavKal
2008-12-31, 01:54 PM
Sorry, but you don't understand probabilities. There's a 36% chance of not rolling a 1 on 20 d20 rolls (.95^20). Your average (50%) chance of hitting a 1 comes at 13.5 rolls (log .5/log .95). It takes 58.4 rolls to have a 95% confidence in rolling a single 1 (log .05/log .95), and 89.8 rolls to have a 99% confidence.

This is the sort of thing that makes me want to quit math. But you make a good point, you can't rely on a die for assured victory. Especially if the DM doesn't want said die to be a 1.

Assassin89
2008-12-31, 02:22 PM
Again, the omniscience kinda takes care of that. I'm sure with his Int score of 30 he'd think of a way not only around your plotting, but to have it backfire on you. Even if you do it, this isn't the Discworld. Gods aren't just gods because they have followers. They don't just exist because of belief. They exist regardless.

Fixed your quote. You could ask for the assistance of a deity who is opposed to Bane or somehow get a deity slaying artifact.

Lord Zentei
2008-12-31, 03:16 PM
Sounds like a job for the anti-osmium bomb!

I can't find it at the moment, but wait for someone else to give you the link.

The problem is the supernatural abilities of the deity in question: you need to somehow avoid using stuff he does much better than you, so magic is iffy.

So do an O'Neill maneuver instead and just use a regular nuke. That will easily deal more than 1000 hp of damage. You could possibly have someone sufficiently awesome whip up an Epic level AM-field and somehow trick him into getting into it, with the nuke as a booby trap. How to trick him into getting into it might be a problem, possibly the best bet short of divine assistance would be some sort of elaborate Xanatos gambit that requires his direct intervention.

EDIT: on omniscience, that only refers to his own portfolio, does it not? Is it not redundant to allow for other gods helping him and then counter this by requiring our would be deity killer to have divine help of his own? Not that he possibly wouldn't have to get that anyway, of course. :smallwink: