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Zeigfreid
2004-07-26, 03:35 PM
Zeigfreid (Zig)
*Their eyes almost glowed with greed as they watched Thaneous pick the final lock. The search for old king Maenic III’s treasure had taken them across the breadth of the world, through dangerous dungeons, and nearly into the very pits of hell. All of that was behind them now, though, and before them lay a life or riches. The bodies of the Yuan-ti guards lay strewn across the marble floor around them, and their blood dripped from nearly every surface. Faint moonlight infiltrated the room from behind thick curtains of crimson fabric. A calm and cloudless night had preceded their arrival, and now not a sound could be heard but the faint clicking of Thaneous’ thieve-picks, and the labored breathing of poor injured Orban. With a final loud clunk and a gasp of expectation from his adventuring companions, Thaneous stood and said with a smile, “That’s it, old friends, now we can retire!”

“Or can you?”

*The voice echoed off the chamber walls. The party of adventurers looked about in horror at the possibility of who, or what, might challenge them. Their lead fighter was terribly wounded and poisoned, and they knew they were in no position to hold their own. “Who’s there?” Malish asked boldly, not being in the mood for intimidating theatrics. The laughter that dogged his question was certainly the most ghastly any of them had every heard.

*“It is I: Zeigfreid, master swordsman! That treasure is mine, so stand aside.” With that, the cloaked warrior revealed himself from behind a nearby curtain with a flourish of incarnadine. He wore a mask that was all too familiar, a black cloth tied around his face leaving little room for dark eyes. His clothes too, the party had seen before: the characteristic longsword dangling from his waist, not yet drawn as if to mock them, and yjr thick gray cape that seemed to catch the wind no matter where he stood.

*“But… But… We killed you!” Malish, taken off guard at the apparent resurrection of their dark nemesis, took a cautious step back and reached for he scroll case.

*“Flattery will get you no-where, my dear Malish.” He smiled, perhaps complimenting himself internally for his quick wit. “Now, prepare to fail in killing me again!” With that his sword escaped its sheath with a ringing akin to the most perfect violin, and he leapt after it into combat.

*Zeigfreid: the man, the myth, the legend. Most adventuring parties have seen him at least once; many have lost valuable treasures to his stealth and timing. His sense of style is unparalleled, and women everywhere adore him. What is more staggering is that stories of his acts are reported around the world, many falling within days of each other. Some believe he can fly, others think he is a demon, many more herald him a masterful wizard. Very few know the truth, and those that do are generally Zeigfreid.
*Zeigfreids are most often rogues or bards, because of their reliance on stealth over force or magic. Fighters, barbarians, and monks find learning Zeigfreid’s fighting style quite difficult, but a skilled warrior who became a Zeigfreid would be a powerful foe indeed. Wizards, clerics, and sorcerers benefit from the defensive abilities of this class; the ability to hide and, seeming, to return from the dead are valuable to such characters. A paladin’s code of conduct is incompatible with that of the Zeigfreid, and a druid’s prohibitions would force him to discard his natural abilities if she became a Zeigfreid.
*Zeigfreids rarely come into contact with each other, since such contact would jeopardize their carefully constructed illusion. Sometimes the Zeigfreids gather to judge each other’s skills and abilities, but such meetings are done in private. These mysterious warriors frequently join parties of adventurers in order to generate wealth for themselves, become mercenaries for rich patrons, or simply strike out on their own to steal from and cheat anyone who gets in their way. Needless to say, Zeigfreids get along best with rogues, and those who hold personal gain in the highest regard.
*Hit Dice: d8

Requirements
*To qualify to become a Zeigfreid, a character must fulfill all the criteria.
*Base Attack Bonus: +3.
*Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 3 ranks, Open Locks 3 ranks.
*Feats: Dodge, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Longsword)
*Special: A potential Zeigfreid must vanish mysteriously from the party in order to train under a higher level Zeigfreid, and return as a Zeigfreid without any apparent ties to his former identity.

Class Skills
*The Zeigfreid's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Locks (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). See chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
*Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Level *BAB *Fort *Ref *Will *Special
1st * * +0 * +0 * *+2 * +0 * Master Swordsman I, Once a Zeigfreid
2nd * * +1 * +0 * *+3 * +0 * Hide in Plain Sight
3rd * * +2 * +1 * *+3 * +1 * Verisimilous Confidence * * *
4th * * +3 * +1 * *+4 * +1 * Master Swordsman II
5th * * +3 * +1 * *+4 * +1 * Skill Mastery
6th * * +4 * +2 * *+5 * +2 * A Time and a Place
7th * * +5 * +2 * *+5 * +2 * Master Swordsman III
8th * * +6 * +2 * *+6 * +2 * Unerring Infiltrator
9th * * +6 * +3 * *+6 * +3 * Just Another Zeigfreid
10th * *+7 * +3 * *+7 * +3 * Always a Zeigfreid


Class Features
*All of the following are features of the Zeigfreid prestige class.
*Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Zeigfreids gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
*The Zeigfreid’s code of conduct prohibits him from using any weapons or armor other than a longsword, and a chain shirt that must be concealed beneath his clothing whenever possible. If he uses any prohibited weapons or armor is unable to use any of his supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so, and for 24 hours afterwards.
*Master Swordsman (Ex): At 1st level, the character learns the unique fighting style of the Zeigfreids, which favors quantity over quality. While wearing light or no armor, the Zeigfreid may strike with his longsword many more times in a round at the expense of accuracy. When doing so he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does every other attack made this round. At 4th level, the Zeigfreid’s Master Swordsman ability grants him two extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but the penalty to his attacks increases to –4. At 7th level, this ability improves again, granting him three extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, and a –6 penalty to his attacks. Because these attacks are made with little regard for accuracy the Zeigfreid cannot use any sneak attack damage he may have on any attacks made while using this ability. This penalty, and the inability to use sneak attack damage, applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the Zeigfreid might make before his next action. The Zeigfreid must use a full attack action (see page 143) to strike with the Master Swordsman ability.
*Once a Zeigfreid (Su): At 1st level, the Zeigfreid gains two inherently magical abilities that aids him in keeping up the illusion of uniqueness.
The Zeigfreid can always tell when he is within 24 miles of another Zeigfreid, and knows the distance and direction to that Zeigfreid. If, heaven forbid, there are more than one other Zeigfreid in a 24 mile radius, he knows the distance and direction to each. In all other ways, this ability functions identically to the locate person spell, using his character level as its caster level.
The Zeigfreid, and all of his equipment, permanently take on the standard appearance of all Zeigfreids, as the alter self spell, using his character level as its caster level, and replacing the spells duration with permanent.
*Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 2nd level, the Zeigfreid can use the Hide skill even when being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, the Zeigfreid can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
*Verisimilous Confidence (Ex): At 3rd level, the Zeigfreid’s confidence is augmented by the reality altering affects of correspondental multiplicity, though many Zeigfreid’s have found this ability to be as much of a curse as a blessing. The Zeigfreid is completely immune to fear, and based fear-effects, and he cannot be intimidated.
*Skill Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, the Zeigfreid becomes so overconfident in his use of the skills of a scaly-wag that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, he selects a number of skills equal to his intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, or Hide, Move Silently, and Open Locks, he may take 10 even when stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
*A Time and a Place (Su): At 6th level, the Zeigfreid’s incredible sense of timing allows him to meet his body’s physical needs with the power of his smug expectation alone, as long as he remains motionless. As long as he takes no movement and remains hidden he does not need to eat, breath, or sleep, and is immune to fatigue and exhaustion. This, among other things, means that the Zeigfreid can stand forever without becoming fatigued.
*Up to one full day after using this ability for any period of time, the Zeigfreid must celebrate. This celebration must involve the Zeigfreid consuming enough food and water to make up for any meals that he did not eat while under the effects of this ability.
*Unerring Infiltrator (Sp): At 7th level, the Zeigfreid continues to increase his mastery of the reality bending techniques manifested by his kin. He may act as though he were under the effects of the gaseous form spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his level in the Zeigfreid prestige class. The Zeigfreid does not have to use these minutes all at once, and may choose to divide them up among any number of uses per day of at least 1 minute each.
*Just Another Zeigfreid (Sp): At 9th level, the Zeigfreid learns another of the society’s incredible techniques for confusing reality with duality. The order long ago realized that since people encountering two Zeigfreids an impossible distance apart are already befuddled by this apparent teleportation, it would not be entirely unreasonable to teach Zeigfreids to do just that. Once per week, the Zeigfreid can take advantage of the highly dependent relationship of reality and perception by moving instantaneously between two points, as the teleport spell cast at his character level.
*Always a Zeigfreid (Su): At 10th level, the Zeigfreid becomes so in-tune with the near group-consciousness of the Zeigfreids that if he were to be replaced by another Zeigfreid, no one would notice the difference. Any amount of time after he has died, a less experienced Zeigfreid may replace him. Effectively this brings the old character back to life, as the raise dead spell cast at his character level before death, with the following exceptions. Before returning to the party, the new Zeigfreid must dispose of his predecessor’s corpse, and then resume his previous life in such a manner that no one would suspect him of being a different Zeigfreid. The new Zeigfreid is identical to the old Zeigfreid in all ways except that he will have “lost” one level, as the raise dead spell cast at the old Zeigfreid’s character level.
*Example: If the old Zeigfreid had been buried in a local cemetery, the new Zeigfreid would have to arrive, dig up the old Zeigfreid, tie his corpse to a rock and throw it into a lake, and then resume his previous life. I the corpse were still with the party members deep in the underdark, the new Zeigfreid would have to wait until the party had gotten rid of the old Zeigfreid’s corpse before he could dispose of it properly and resume its previous life. In either case, if the old Zeigfreid had been a Rog 5/Zig 10, the new Zeigfreid would be a Rog 5/Zig 9, but would be in all other ways identical.
*In the unlikely event that after a new Zeigfreid has arrived on the scene, the old Zeigfreid is revived (by, for instance, a true resurrection spell), the older Zeigfreid would take it as his duty to act in a manner that would preserve the illusion that the new Zeigfreid is the old Zeigfreid. In any event, the old Zeigfreid, upon the arrival of a new Zeigfreid, becomes an NPC under the control of the DM.
*Code of Conduct: The Zeigfreid must be of a Chaotic Neutral alignment, and he loses all class abilities if his alignment ever becomes Lawful or non-neutral. Additionally, the Zeigfreid’s code requires that he must legitimately be named Zeigfreid (he can change his name to Zeigfreid after taking this class, but he must act as though his name had never been spelled otherwise); he must not reveal the fact that there are more than one Zeigfreid; he must satisfy his greed whenever and however it should strike; he must maintain bravado even when the chips are down.

guessmith
2004-07-26, 04:25 PM
Cool....cooler....coolest!

I likey, I likey a lot.

Zeigfreid
2004-07-26, 04:34 PM
Hi

Thanks!

I like the Guessmith, and I definitely think it's going to win the flavor text contest. It certainly has my vote. I love sympathic monsters, and the image of this huge gynosphynx and a little gnome yack'n it up makes me smile.

z.

Zherog
2004-07-26, 05:05 PM
A very interesting class - but I see some mechanical and power problems that I'll describe below.


Zeigfreid: the man, the myth, the legend. Most adventuring parties have seen him at least once; many have lost valuable treasures to his stealth and timing. His sense of style is unparalleled, and women everywhere adore him.

You've just described me perfectly. ;D

Great flavor text!


Hit Dice: d10

A bit on the high side for a rogue-ish prestige class. I would expect a d6, and no higher than d8 most likely.


Requirements
*To qualify to become a Zeigfreid, a character must fulfill all the criteria.
*Base Attack Bonus: +3.
*Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 3 ranks, Open Locks 3 ranks.
*Feats: Dodge, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Longsword)
*Special: A potential Zeigfreid must vanish mysteriously from the party for a time, and return as a Zeigfreid without any apparent ties to his former identity.

As your flavor text says, it looks like rogue and bard are the two easiest classes to gain entry with.


Class Features

You're missing your skill list and ranks per level.


Master Swordsman (Ex): At 1st level, the character learns the unique fighting style of the Zeigfreids, which favors quantity over quality. While wearing light or no armor, the Zeigfreid may strike with his longsword many more times in a round at the expense of accuracy. When doing so he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does every other attack made this round. At 4th level, the Zeigfreid’s Master Swordsman ability grants him two extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but the penalty to his attacks increases to –4. At 7th level, this ability improves again, granting him three extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, and a –6 penalty to his attacks. Because these attacks are made with little regard for accuracy the Zeigfreid cannot use any sneak attack damage he may have on any attacks made while using this ability. This penalty, and the inability to use sneak attack damage, applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the Zeigfreid might make before his next action. The Zeigfreid must use a full attack action (see page 143) to strike with the Master Swordsman ability.

Well, this ability would make it so I wouldn't enter the class as a rogue - even a multiclassed one. Sneak Attack is the combat ability for Rogues. To take that away is to really gimp the rogue. Combine this ability with the lack of sneak attack progression, and I honestly can say I've never played with somebody who likes rogues who would take this class (as a rogue, of course). A Bard/Fighter might actually do OK with this class, though.

I can understand why you wouldn't progress sneak attack if it doesn't fit your class concept, but I really don't think you should gimp the rogue's main ability in combat.


Once a Zeigfreid (Su): At 1st level, the Zeigfreid gains an inherently magical 6th sense that aids him in keeping up the illusion of uniqueness. The Zeigfreid can always tell when he is within 24 miles of another Zeigfreid, and knows the distance and direction to that Zeigfreid. If, heaven forbid, there are more than one other Zeigfreid in a 24 mile radius, he knows the distance and direction to each. In all other ways, this ability functions identically to the locate person spell, using his character level as its caster level.

Good flavor ability.


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 1st level, the Zeigfreid can use the Hide skill even when being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, the Zeigfreid can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

I like Hide in Plain Sight, though I know other people who think the ability sucks. One thing here - your text says first level, while your table says second level.


Skill Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, the Zeigfreid becomes so overconfident in his use of the skills of a scaly-wag that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making Hide, Move Silently, or Open Locks skill checks, he may take 10 even when stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.

Quite a limited list. Perhaps allow the character to add one or two other skills to the list?


A Time and a Place (Su): At 6th level, the Zeigfreid’s incredible sense of timing allows him to meet his body’s physical needs with the power of his smug expectation alone, as long as he remains motionless. As long as he takes no movement and remains hidden he does not need to eat, breath, or sleep, and is immune to fatigue and exhaustion. This, among other things, means that the Zeigfreid can stand forever without becoming fatigued.

This has some interesting implications. When he does finally move (or is spotted!) does the lack of food/drink/sleep catch up with him? For example, if I "hide" in my room at the inn for 8 hours, am I good to go the next morning, or will I then be fatigued? And hungry?


Unerring Infiltrator (Sp): At 7th level, the Zeigfreid continues to increase his mastery of the reality bending techniques manifested by his kin. He may act as though he were under the effects of the gaseous form spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his level in the Zeigfreid prestige class. The Zeigfreid does not have to use these minutes all at once, and may choose to divide them up among any number of uses per day of at least 1 minute each.

Nice ability!


Just Another Zeigfreid (Sp): At 9th level, the Zeigfreid learns another of the society’s incredible techniques for confusing reality with duality. The order long ago realized that since people encountering two Zeigfreids an impossible distance apart are already befuddled by this apparent teleportation, it would not be entirely unreasonable to teach Zeigfreids to do just that. Once per week, the Zeigfreid can take advantage of the highly dependent relationship of reality and perception by moving instantaneously between two points, as the teleport spell cast at his character level.

Another nice ability. I'm personally not a fan of abilities that are "once a week" or (worse still) "once a month." I find them too hard to keep track of. That might be just me though.


Always a Zeigfreid (Su): At 10th level, the Zeigfreid becomes so in-tune with the near group-consciousness of the Zeigfreids that if he were to be replaced by another Zeigfreid, no one would notice the difference. Any amount of time after he has died, a less experienced Zeigfreid may replace him. Effectively this brings the old character back to life, as the raise dead spell cast at his character level before death, with the following exceptions. Before returning to the party, the new Zeigfreid must dispose of his predecessor’s corpse, and then resume his previous life in such a manner that no one would suspect him of being a different Zeigfreid. The new Zeigfreid is identical to the old Zeigfreid in all ways except that he will have “lost” one level, as the raise dead spell cast at the old Zeigfreid’s character level.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but this ability seems really sucky to me. It's probably quite good for an NPC, but it just seems really poor for a PC. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. I guess a "free" resurection is nice; but it seems to mean the PC will never be getting a True Ressurection.


Code of Conduct: The Zeigfreid must be of a Chaotic Neutral alignment, and he loses all class abilities if his alignment ever becomes Lawful or non-neutral. Additionally, the Zeigfreid’s code requires that he must legitimately be named Zeigfreid (he can change his name to Zeigfreid after taking this class, but he must act as though his name had never been spelled otherwise); he must not reveal the fact that there are more than one Zeigfreid; he must satisfy his greed whenever and however it should strike; he must maintain bravado even when the chips are down; and he must only wear the clothing given to him by the Zeigfreid who indoctrinated him into their mass deception. Any part of the Zeigfreid’s equipment can be replaced by magical versions of the same kind of equipment, as long as the new piece of equipment is similar enough to the old one that it would not make him stand out from the other Zeigfreids.

So.... this sounds to me like a PC can't use any new items he finds. Rings all look different, the various amulets each look different, etc. Obviously if I'm a Zeigfreid and I have an Amulet of Natural Armor and you're a Zeigfreid and you have a Periapt of Wisdom, those two are going to look very different! That just seems really problematic to me.

***

Overall, I don't think I'd play the class as a PC. If I'm playing a rogue, I like my sneak attack too much to give it up, and I find the Bard class to be incredibly weak and so I try to avoid it. It might make an interesting adversary for a DM to use, however.

Have you considered replacing the Longsword with a Rapier? That sounds to me more like the sort of weapon a character in this class would use.

Zeigfreid
2004-07-26, 05:51 PM
Hi

Hmm... Mixed review from the master...

Well, first off I'll adress the HD 1d10 and BAB progression. My image for this prestige class was a warrior class, but one that would be awkward to qualify for. This is meant to reprisent that the Zeigfreids are not master swordsman as they/he claims. I gave it 1d10 to represent the warriorness, but I also gave it a not so good BAB progression so that the Master Swordsman ability wouldn't skyrocket. I realize now, however, that I have to reduce the skill requisites a might bit for fighters to qualify without having to multiclass.

Secondly, I missed the skills... on purpouse! That's right, I was testing you (****, way to go Ziggy...).

The Master Swordsman ability wasn't intended for rogues, the Zeigfreid is a fighter class that rogues can more easily qualify for. If you think about it, though, if a 5th level rogue enters the class he has +2d6 sneak attack. If he can take attack that 4 times by 7th prestige level with his MS ability, then that's +8d6. On the whole, though, I agree that this would appeal more to someone with multiclass rogue levels than a truely roguey guy.

I fixed Hide in Plain Sight and the Skill Mastery bit. Thanks for the tip-off.

I don't have a solution for the A Time and a Place ability. That is a rather sound problem, though... I can say that you and I have two very different ways of thinking, as I would never have come up with that. I'm inside the box.

I think being able to raise dead yourself once per level is an okay ability, though I see what you mean. To have the assurance that you will always come back, though, is pretty sweet.

The equipment thing is another biggy. Obviously what I'm trying for is to get the character to look like other Zeigfreids. I guess I could have his magic items meld magicaly, like equipment a druid has when he uses wild shape.

As for this being an NPC's prestige class, yah it probably is.

Zeigfreid
2004-07-26, 06:29 PM
Hi

Ooh Ooh! Solved it! My first take at the solution to the having to eat problem is:


A Time and a Place (Su): At 6th level, the Zeigfreid’s incredible sense of timing allows him to meet his body’s physical needs with the power of his smug expectation alone, as long as he remains motionless. As long as he takes no movement and remains hidden he does not need to eat, breath, or sleep, and is immune to fatigue and exhaustion. This, among other things, means that the Zeigfreid can stand forever without becoming fatigued.
*Up to one full day after using this ability for any period of time, the Zeigfreid must celebrate. This celebration must involve the Zeigfreid consuming enough food and water to make up for any meals that he did not eat while under the effects of this ability.

Also, what would you say to giving them +3d6 sneak attack over the course of 1o levels. They still wouldn't be able to sneak attack when using the Master Swordsman ability, but they would at least have the option.

Giving up magic items is an option that some classes pursue... But the Zeigfreid wouldn't be giving them up entirely, just partially. I guess I could give him some more power to compensate, but then a clever player might be able to get a bunch of magic items hidden on his person (thus not violating his Dress Code of Conduct).

z.

Geethree
2004-07-26, 07:12 PM
First of all, I'd like to say that you definitely created a class that is oozing with flavor. The abilities seem well thought out and the entire class is solid. Off the top of my head I would drop the hit die to a d8, but that's me.

My biggest problem is that as a DM, I would probably never allow a player to take this class. It's too specialized, requires me to develop the story around the Zeigfreid order, and the class doesn't seem suited for a PC anyway. The PrC seems too flitty and doesn't strike me as something a PC would actually take. Not to mention that if the PC ever dealt with other members of the order, I would have to drop the rest of the story entirely and focus solely on one character while excluding the others.

This is a great class for an NPC, though.

Starbuck_II
2004-07-26, 08:55 PM
I like the class: Isn't Zeigfreid that guy from FF6 that sucks in combat guarding that treasure chest in the Phantom Train? Somehow escapes with it anyway?

This class does fit well.
I agree that D10 fits him well.



To qualify to become a Zeigfreid, a character must fulfill all the criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 3 ranks, Open Locks 3 ranks.
Feats: Dodge, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Special: A potential Zeigfreid must vanish mysteriously from the party for a time, and return as a Zeigfreid without any apparent ties to his former identity.


Why is Hide 8 ranks?
I'd go with Hide 5 that seems more reasonable.

Bab: +4 because he has to know how to fight right?

Instead if Weapon focus long sword , how about:
Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Weapon Focus(rapier)

Special seems wrong: How about training under another Zeigfreid for a week. And must not acknowledge that he was the old identity or something.
Its possible to start as one in a high level campaign.

Just a minor text issue lol.



Master Swordsman (Ex): At 1st level, the character learns the unique fighting style of the Zeigfreids, which favors quantity over quality. While wearing light or no armor, the Zeigfreid may strike with his longsword many more times in a round at the expense of accuracy. When doing so he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does every other attack made this round. At 4th level, the Zeigfreid’s Master Swordsman ability grants him two extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but the penalty to his attacks increases to –4. At 7th level, this ability improves again, granting him three extra attacks at his highest base attack bonus, and a –6 penalty to his attacks. Because these attacks are made with little regard for accuracy the Zeigfreid cannot use any sneak attack damage he may have on any attacks made while using this ability. This penalty, and the inability to use sneak attack damage, applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the Zeigfreid might make before his next action. The Zeigfreid must use a full attack action (see page 143) to strike with the Master Swordsman ability.

Master Swordsman seems inefficient: Why the no sneak attack? I guess you aren't being accurate so makes some sense.

I think he should have Good Fort saves but keep the Reflex saves.

Zherog
2004-07-26, 10:26 PM
Hi

Hmm... Mixed review from the master...

The master? http://www.wizards.com/community/images/boards/graemlins/blush.gif Nah - just a guy with a lot of free time at work.


Well, first off I'll adress the HD 1d10 and BAB progression. My image for this prestige class was a warrior class, but one that would be awkward to qualify for. This is meant to reprisent that the Zeigfreids are not master swordsman as they/he claims. I gave it 1d10 to represent the warriorness, but I also gave it a not so good BAB progression so that the Master Swordsman ability wouldn't skyrocket. I realize now, however, that I have to reduce the skill requisites a might bit for fighters to qualify without having to multiclass.

My personal opinion is a d10 is too much for this class - it really has nothing to do with the BAB. It just seems a d6 or d8 is more suited for the "flavor" of this class.

As for fighters (and their ilk) getting into the class - you are absolutely correct that they won't be able to do so. One of the first things I do is look at the pre-reqs and figure out what is the most likely quickest way in. This particular class screamed rogue or bard, and your flavor text backed that up nicely. This is why (for example) I mentioned the sneak attack (but I'll give more about that below).

If you want fighters to be the primary class to select this, I'd drop the skills a lot (remember fighters only get 2 + int mod per level). You can make up for this by adding feats - remember fighters get a boatload of those.


Secondly, I missed the skills... on purpouse! That's right, I was testing you (wombat, way to go Ziggy...).

Excellent! That means I passed your test, right? ;)

Don't sweat it. Once, in one of my PrC's, I forgot skills, Hit Die and weapon proficiencies. :) That's the reason we show it to others, right - to see what we missed.


The Master Swordsman ability wasn't intended for rogues, the Zeigfreid is a fighter class that rogues can more easily qualify for. If you think about it, though, if a 5th level rogue enters the class he has +2d6 sneak attack. If he can take attack that 4 times by 7th prestige level with his MS ability, then that's +8d6. On the whole, though, I agree that this would appeal more to someone with multiclass rogue levels than a truely roguey guy.

Actually, a 5th level rogue would have 3d6 sneak attack. ;) And remember he only gets that sneak attack in limited circumstances against limited opponents. To take this slightly further, if I have a rogue 5/Fighter 8 (only one level higher than your example above), I can have 6 attacks per round, all sneak attack, via the two-weapon fighting tree. Throw in Haste from my arcane caster buddy and now I'm at 7 attacks a round, all with sneak attack. It's really not that broken.


I don't have a solution for the A Time and a Place ability. That is a rather sound problem, though... I can say that you and I have two very different ways of thinking, as I would never have come up with that. I'm inside the box.

I don't know that I think outside the box. It's always easiest to spot things when you didn't write 'em. ;)


I think being able to raise dead yourself once per level is an okay ability, though I see what you mean. To have the assurance that you will always come back, though, is pretty sweet.

Like I said, I'm not exactly sure I can describe why the ability feels weak to me. I still can't quite put my finger on it. I guess there's two things kicking around in my head. First, it's not really you coming back; instead it's some guy who kinda looks like you and dresses like you and acts mostly like you. Second, in D&D, there's not many ways to "get rid" of a body - especially once True Resurrection comes into play.

But it feels like there's still something more, that I'm not quite getting yet....


The equipment thing is another biggy. Obviously what I'm trying for is to get the character to look like other Zeigfreids. I guess I could have his magic items meld magicaly, like equipment a druid has when he uses wild shape.

That is a possibility. You can create an ability at first level that covers making all the stuff look the same. You can even go so far as to have that ability cause all the Zeigfreid's to look alike, too. That covers that base nicely. ;)


As for this being an NPC's prestige class, yah it probably is.

It screams NPC (and a cool one at that!) for exactly the reason Geethree pointed out. A DM would have to take his campaign through a lot of hoops to pull this off well for a PC. If I had a PC who had his or her heart set on this, I'd let them - but they'd have to know up front that I might not be able to pull it off.

Also - you had mentioned adding 3d6 sneak attack. I wouldn't do that - especially if your Master Swordsman ability won't allow the use of sneak attack. If you don't envision this class as a pure rogue class, great! We'll all work together to steer your class more towards what you want. That doesn't prevent a rogue from talking it; it just means that rogue would have to live with no SA progression.

I think your class rocks hard from a flavor point of view. Mechanics aren't too hard to fix, really. We'll get it figured out. ;D

guessmith
2004-07-27, 01:44 AM
Hi

Thanks!

I like the Guessmith, and I definitely think it's going to win the flavor text contest. It certainly has my vote. I love sympathic monsters, and the image of this huge gynosphynx and a little gnome yack'n it up makes me smile.

z.

Thank you!

kirellagen
2004-08-24, 08:38 PM
I just wanted to say how cool your class was, and I didn't get a chance when the contest was running.

Kire