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Tzor
2004-07-15, 02:06 PM
There was a time in the history of the world where good people wore white hats and evil people wore black hats. *Where the champions of lawful good rode their gallant steeds and defended the helpless. *Yes, even in the Wild West, there were Singing Paladins.

Paladins and bards at first seem like chocolate and peanut butter, two great tastes that need to be together. *But there is a slight problem, paladins are lawful, and bards are not. *And it was this way for quite a long time. *Until a paladin of Columbo, by the name of Tzor decided that being bold and true didnít mean you couldnít chant with the monks. *Inspired by the Singing Druid Francis, Tzor set out to discover the way of the Singing Paladin, starting an order that exists to this very day.

Requirements

Skills: Perform 2 ranks

Base Attack Bonus: +6

Special: The ability to lay on hands. (Paladin Class Feature)

Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier

TABLE
Level BAB. *FORT. REF. *WILL. SPECIAL
1st * +0 * *+0 * *+2 * *+2 * Bardic Music
2nd * +1 * *+0 * *+3 * *+3 * Bardic Knowledge
3rd * +2 * *+1 * *+3 * *+3 * Bardic Music *
4th * +3 * *+1 * *+4 * *+4 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
5th * +3 * *+1 * *+4 * *+4 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
6th * +4 * *+2 * *+5 * *+5 * Bardic Music *
7th * +5 * *+2 * *+5 * *+5 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
8th * +6 * *+2 * *+6 * *+6 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
9th * +6 * *+3 * *+6 * *+6 * Bardic Music *
10th *+7 * *+3 * *+7 * *+7 * Spells: +1 level of existing class

Level BAB. *FORT. REF. *WILL. SPECIAL
1st * +0 * *+0 * *+2 * *+2 * Bardic Music, *inspire courage +1, Paladin Points
2nd * +1 * *+0 * *+3 * *+3 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
3rd * +2 * *+1 * *+3 * *+3 * Inspire competence, Bardic Knowledge
4th * +3 * *+1 * *+4 * *+4 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
5th * +3 * *+1 * *+4 * *+4 * Inspire courage +2, Paladin Multiclassing
6th * +4 * *+2 * *+5 * *+5 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
7th * +5 * *+2 * *+5 * *+5 * Inspire greatness
8th * +6 * *+2 * *+6 * *+6 * Spells: +1 level of existing class
9th * +6 * *+3 * *+6 * *+6 * Inspire courage +3
10th *+7 * *+3 * *+7 * *+7 * Spells: +1 level of existing class *


Paladin Points: The Tzor can add his levels in Tzor to his levels in Paladin for the purposes of the Paladin's Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, and Turn Undead ability.

Bardic Music: Just like a bard.

Bardic Music: The Tzor has access to certain elements of bardic music, although the Tzor uses levels in the Tzor class instead of levels in bard class to access these features. *Additions to the features are based on the levels indicated in the table and not in the text descriptions on the bard.

Bardic Knowledge: Just like a bard.

Bardic Knowledge: Silimiar to that of the bard class, only the Tzor uses his class levels in Tzor instead of Bard.


Spells: Since the Singing Paladin Tzor is not actually a bard he continues along the path of spells before he became a Tzor. *Typically this would be the paladin chain, but any spell caster class obtained could be increased by these levels.

Spells: When the indicated level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Tzor, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Paladin Multiclassing: *Once a Tzor obtains 5th level in the Tzor PRC he may freely switch back and forth on future levels between the PRC and the Paladin class.

Starbuck_II
2004-07-15, 03:34 PM
Now does it mean all spellcasting clases he had previously or just 1?

The wording of Spells: +1 existing class isn't specified to me.
Maybe +1 to 1 existing class. It could be an abuse otherwise.

Unless that was what you were going for. So he might increase his Paladin Lvs/others at same time.

I like the idea lol, can you muticlass the PRc or not?
Just wonering because Paladins can't usually.

I think maybe Perform 4 ranks?

AngelSword
2004-07-15, 03:41 PM
I agree. I'd say Perform (Sing) 5 Ranks. Also, I'd add some requisite for spellcasting, since he gains a bonus to his spellcasting ability. In order to gain the benefit, he has to have spells, right?

Tzor
2004-07-16, 05:19 PM
Starbuck_II - on the topic of "Spells": I pulled the general open content legal stuff for the Arcane Trickster. This makes it clear that only one class can be so incremented. Since one has to have at least a few levels in paladin one at least has one class that has a spell casting path.

Multiclassing: "Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities." I don't see an exception in 3.5 for PrC Classes.

AngelSword - on the question of a performance requirement: It seems exceptionally kind of strict to me. Paladins don't have perform as a class skill. Having 5 ranks in a non class skill requires at least 7th level. and of course one need to deveote 10 points of skill out of the paladin's normal 14 (+ int modifier * 7) or basically almost all of the Paladin's skill points into a skill that won't become at all useful until he enters the PrC.

Zagaroth
2004-07-18, 01:27 PM
Tzor, the 3.5 hospitaler (from the Complete Divine) has the multiclass note that a Paladin who takes levels in hospitaler may continue advancing as a Paladin.

For prerequisites, I woudl require at least SOME ranks in perform, say, 2?

The Giant
2004-07-18, 07:28 PM
How about 2 ranks of Perform then? There are a number of warrior-type classes in print that have 2 ranks in a cross-class skill as a requirement, since it is expected that the PC will either have to spend cross class or multiclass to accomplish it. 2 ranks cc is doable pretty easily, and the existing requirements are pretty bland. ANY paladin could pick up this class without spending even a moment acquiring the prereq's.

Does this class stack paladin levels for Lay On Hands purposes? If it doesn't, I think it should.

Tzor
2004-07-18, 09:42 PM
OK 2 points sounds good. As for Lay on Hands Stacking, I'll do a little checking on a couple of other sources for precident and if it looks like it's possible I'll add it.

Musrum
2004-07-20, 12:16 AM
Level BAB. FORT. REF. WILL. SPECIAL
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic Music
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Bardic Knowledge
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Bardic Music *
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Spells: +1 level of existing class
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Spells: +1 level of existing class
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Bardic Music *
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Spells: +1 level of existing class
8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Spells: +1 level of existing class
9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Bardic Music *
10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Spells: +1 level of existing class

I would evenly distribute the spellcasting and add the to the songs available like the Bard class. There are some songs which are not really appropriate for a Paladin.
Here is an example:


Level BAB. FORT. REF. WILL. SPECIAL
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic Music, countersong, inspire courage +1
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Spells: +1 level of existing class
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Inspire competence
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Spells: +1 level of existing class
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Inspire courage +2
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Spells: +1 level of existing class
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Inspire greatness
8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Spells: +1 level of existing class
9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Inspire courage +3
10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Spells: +1 level of existing class

Tzor
2004-07-21, 09:52 AM
That's a good idea. While I am at it, I changed the code block to a font block, so I can strikeout the old code and blue in the new code.

Zherog
2004-07-23, 11:31 AM
Hiya, Tzor. I must say, the way you did your revisions was rather interesting.... Specific comments below.


Skills: Perform 2 ranks

Base Attack Bonus: +6

Special: The ability to lay on hands. (Paladin Class Feature)

The requirements seem a little bland, but otherwise they fit the class. Is there a feat you could toss in here? I can't think of anything off the top of my head...


Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier

The skill list and skill points are certainly a boon to paladins! It looks like you copied the Bard list, and I just now noticed something very interesting about that list. Spot is not a class skill for bards! :o

You might want to add Ride to the skill list, since a paladin will have his mount by this point.


Bardic Music: Just like a bard.

Saying "just like a bard" has a minor issue. The Bard's musical abilities require levels in Bard to use. You may want to make a note about this.


Bardic Knowledge: Just like a bard.

This doesn't appear on your table.


Spells: When the indicated level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

You'll need to update the bolded part. ;)

***

As has been suggested, you probably want to make a note about a Paladin being able to freely multiclass with this class. Otherwise, once a paladin takes a level of this PrC (which is designed for him) he can never take another level of paladin again.

I think you could do two little things to this class, so it retains Paladin "feel" but doesn't add too much power.

First, I would add a note at first level that levels in this class stack with paladin levels for Lay on Hands. It's really not going to be that much extra healing.

Second, you could probably get away with adding an extra Smite Evil use (or two) in the class. If you do, specify that it stacks with the paladin's ability. After all, they still go out into the world to kick Evil's butt - they just happen to also enjoy singing. ;)

Tzor
2004-07-23, 03:58 PM
I'll work on a feat. Instead of making a seperate topic for lay on hands and smite evil, I threw in an ability called Paladin points that treats the Tzor levels as paladin levels for purposes of laying on hands, smiting evil (normally an extra one every five levels) and turning undead (normally an extra one every four levels). I waited until 5th level before the free multiclassing back and forth to paladin is allowed, you need at least a little dedication to being a Tzor.

I've also just edited the new text directly. I want to show the differences between the original design and the final one, not per se every change I have made in the process.

GeeVee
2004-07-27, 10:21 AM
You do realize that you could just as well take two levels of Paladin and four levels of Fighter? That would basically equal no spellcasting, thus making a big element of the class useless.

Consider adding 1 level of Divine spellcasting to the list.

Other than that, It's really nice now after the improvements ;)

Tzor
2004-07-27, 10:28 AM
I guess you could but why? (I mean why go from paladin to fighter in the first place?)

But you raise an interesting problem with the PrC as written. In theory you can take 2 levels of paladin, 2 levels of wizard, 5 levels of Tzor (getting the spell level in wizard of 4) and then return to being a paladin as though nothing happened.

Both are odd, Pal/Ftr/Tzor is both odd and dumb, but neither is I think breaking the universe or abusing the rules.

Zherog
2004-07-27, 12:43 PM
There are numerous prestige classes that grant "+1 spellcasting level" that can be qualified for without having spells. If I recall correctly, the Harper Agent from PLayer's Guide to Faerun is just one example. I think it's fine as written.

Geethree
2004-07-27, 02:23 PM
I would cut down the skill list a lot. Combine the paladin's list with only the core elements of the bard list and drop the skill points down to 4 per level. I'd take out appriase, balance, bluff (paladins don't normally lie), decipher script, disguise, escape artist, hide, move silently, and sleight of hand.

I'd give the class some kind of "kicker ability." What I mean by that is a unique ability that is normally pretty powerful and is attained at high levels, preferably the last level in the class. It gives the player incentive to progress all the way to level 10. I believe that classes should do something cool all the way to their final level and not just progress old abilities.

I think the idea behind your class is great, though, and you already have a solid PrC. It just needs some tweaking.