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TengYt
2009-01-03, 12:35 PM
What feats would you say are the most useful of all?
For most melee builds, Power Attack is awesome enough to be near mandatory.
Improved Initative is one of those feats that can help no matter what your build is, as going first in battle is always handy.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 12:42 PM
Leadership
Natural Spell
Divine Metamagic (and related Extra Turnings)
Quicken Spell
Persistent Spell
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Extraordinary Artisan
Legendary Artisan
Font of Inspiration
Power Attack
Shock Trooper
Robilar's Gambit
Karmic Strike
Combat Reflexes
Mage Slayer
Defensive Sweep
Stand Still
Leap Attack
Improved Trip
Knock-Down
Knockback
Large and In Charge
Rapid Shot
Extend Spell
Craven
Chain Spell
Flyby Attack
Stormguard Warrior
Shadowblade
Weapon Finesse
...and I'm out of breath. Psionics, Incarnum and Binding are completely missing still, along with a hundred others I'm not thinking of right now.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-03, 03:15 PM
Eldariel already got the sine qua non of Rogue feats, Craven, so I'll just add Savvy Rogue. It's another feat that keeps on giving, because it provides benefits for all the Rogue special abilities -- including those you take after Savvy Rogue.

For archer types with precision damage: Greater Manyshot.

If your DM actually enforces the Spot rules ("Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action."), then you really must have Quick Reconnoiter.

Egiam
2009-01-03, 03:16 PM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Repeater Crossbow). Totally.
Psychic Strike.
Skill Focus (Concentration)

Hundreds of others. :smallwink:

Kris Strife
2009-01-03, 03:35 PM
Throw anything

Exotic Weapon Proficiancy: Electric Guitar.

TempusCCK
2009-01-03, 03:52 PM
Improved Initiative.

Weapon Finesse

Basically anything that makes a concept viable, like Daring Outlaw, you grab 3 levels of Swash, get Int to Damage, and then you go all the way into Rogue to be a better Swashbuckler than finishing the class would net you.

Now you can play the Brains over Brawn type Rogue who instead of being powerful, knows exactly where to hit you to make it hurt.

Frog Dragon
2009-01-03, 03:53 PM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Repeater Crossbow). Totally.
Psychic Strike.
Skill Focus (Concentration)

Hundreds of others. :smallwink:
Skill Focus: Concentration sucks in fact go check out feats that suck. There's plently proof there
And an ownage feat? Combat Panache. Yes please. Make the enemy's damage cheese kill his allies and that's only one function.

kyoten
2009-01-03, 06:00 PM
Throw anything

Exotic Weapon Proficiancy: Electric Guitar.

Combo - Power attack and EWP: Electric Guitar. AXE ATTACK!!!

Fizban
2009-01-03, 07:30 PM
Draconic Aura [Vigor]: infinite out of combat healing to half max? Yes please!
Dragon Prophesier: which leads to....
Prophecy's Shaper: empower basically all your spells every fight, woo hoo!
Prophecy's Artifex: quicken a wand or staff for the duration of every fight
or Prophecy's Hero: a few free action points a day, which can be combined with...
Wand Surge: activate a wand or staff using 1 action point per charge
Minor Shapeshift: get your level in temporary hp every round? I has regenerative shielding!
Versatile Spellcaster: screw the rules, I have excess spell slots!
Sculpt Spell: who said anything about a fireball
Residual Metamagic: you basically only have to pay for metamagic every other round as long as you're casting the same spell
Shield Charge/Shield Slam: you knock them off balance with your shield, reminds me of Twilight Princess
Brutal Strike: you bludgeon them so hard they take -2 to pretty much everything

That's most of them off my own list of awesome feats, though that's mostly for the less talked about ones I like.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 08:12 PM
Scorpion's Resolve - +4 on saves vs. mind affecting spells and abilities. +4!. No prereqs. Compare to Iron Will, which it stacks with, BTW...

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 08:28 PM
Scorpion's Resolve - +4 on saves vs. mind affecting spells and abilities. +4!. No prereqs. Compare to Iron Will, which it stacks with, BTW...

And what about Echo Power.

It gives a +Infinity bonus to Int checks to win chess games.

Seriously, +4 against a specific subset of Will saves that are the easiest types to negate. I mean, +4 for a feat, or you can have someone cast Protection from Evil/Mindblank/ect.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 08:49 PM
Seriously, +4 against a specific subset of Will saves that are the easiest types to negate. I mean, +4 for a feat, or you can have someone cast Protection from Evil/Mindblank/ect.
I still think it's a pretty sweet deal, especially at lower levels. +4 against what are generally save or sucks. The core only gives you a feat that gives +2. And let's face it, 90% of Will saves are against mind effects. The only notable (common) exception that springs to mind is Glitterdust.

Protection from Evil has a limited duration, especially if you're getting it from a wand (Magic Circle against Evil has a better duration, but is more costly). Otherwise, you are eating into the caster's spell resources, not to mention that you may be called on to make a save unexpectedly, before you can get a spell up. Also, casting spells costs precious actions, if you're going to do it in combat. A permanent item costs a significant amount of cash.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-03, 08:52 PM
Steadfast Determination: in the right build it gives more than just a little bonus, but it still gives a decent portion with regards to will saves for melee combatants outside of ToB.
Arcane Strike
Dragonfire Inspiration: Replace my inspiration bonus with d6s? Gimme!
Travel Devotion
Daring Outlaw
Swift Hunter

FMArthur
2009-01-03, 08:53 PM
Well, Complete Scoundrel had a great idea where instead of making up new PrCs that are just combinations of a couple existing classes, you could just take a feat to let levels of certain (usually weaker) classes count as levels of another class for the purpose of a few abilities. The general idea is that some classes suck hard enough that adding a scaling part of another class onto them doesn't even affect overall game balance.

Here: Ascetic Stalker - Pretty bad: Monk+Ninja and it's only unarmed damage and Ki pool
Daring Outlaw - Rogue/Swashbucker levels stack for Grace, Dodge Bonus, and Sneak Attack
Daring Warrior - Fighter/Swashbuckler levels stack for Grace, Dodge Bonus, and feat qualification
Martial Stalker - Fighter/Ninja levels stack for Ki pool, AC Bonus, and feat qualification
Master Spellthief - Spellthief/Arcane Caster levels stack for Steal Spell, Caster Level, and Armored Casting
Swift Ambusher - Rogue/Scout levels stack for Skirmish
Swift Hunter - Ranger/Scout levels stack for Skirmish and Favored Enemy


Anyway, they're amazing feats, but since they're on not-so-amazing classes, they won't see much use in high-power builds. After this book came out, certain classes could be reduced to dips without actually losing important features.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 08:53 PM
I still think it's a pretty sweet deal, especially at lower levels. +4 against what are generally save or sucks. The core only gives you a feat that gives +2. And let's face it, 90% of Will saves are against mind effects. The only notable (common) exception that springs to mind is Glitterdust.

Protection from Evil has a limited duration, especially if you're getting it from a wand (Magic Circle against Evil has a better duration, but is more costly). Otherwise, you are eating into the caster's spell resources, not to mention that you may be called on to make a save unexpectedly, before you can get a spell up. Also, casting spells costs precious actions, if you're going to do it in combat. A permanent item costs a significant amount of cash.

Or you could just not care about a +4 twice per level and take a feat that lets you do something.

Lappy9000
2009-01-03, 08:53 PM
Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu! Hippopotami don't rebuke themselves.

DrakebloodIV
2009-01-03, 09:02 PM
Or you could just not care about a +4 twice per level and take a feat that lets you do something.

Hey, lay off the guy. Last time I checked we let other people have opinions on this forum and don't make flaming comments just to start a childish argument.

Now I want you to apologize or its ten minutes on the time out chair for you.

Starsinger
2009-01-03, 09:16 PM
Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu! Hippopotami don't rebuke themselves.

And not to mention the ever important clause, "You'll never be attacked by a wild hippopotamus."

Fax Celestis
2009-01-03, 09:19 PM
Hey, lay off the guy. Last time I checked we let other people have opinions on this forum and don't make flaming comments just to start a childish argument.

Now I want you to apologize or its ten minutes on the time out chair for you.

Someone fetch this man a moderator hat.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 09:19 PM
Or you could just not care about a +4 twice per level and take a feat that lets you do something.
Yes, a +4 against Deep Slumber, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Charm Person or a Harpy's song is completely useless, especially for someone with a poor Will save. There is no place for defense in 3.5, obviously... :smalltongue:

Lappy9000
2009-01-03, 09:25 PM
And not to mention the ever important clause, "You'll never be attacked by a wild hippopotamus."

Woah, there, let's not get ahead of ourselves. "You'll never be attacked by a wild hippotamus unless magically compelled."

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 09:41 PM
Yes, a +4 against Deep Slumber, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Charm Person or a Harpy's song is completely useless, especially for someone with a poor Will save. There is no place for defense in 3.5, obviously... :smalltongue:

Since you could get the same +4 for a feat that also lets you use relics, or +5-14 for two feats that applies to all will saves ever made.

Or you just rely on your +base save +6 resistance +2-4 morale +2 luck.

Or you could get a spell with a duration of 24-48 hours cast on you.

Yeah, there is room for defense in D&D, there is no room for blowing a feat on a +4 to one very specific type of defense that is really easy to negate.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 09:45 PM
Since you could get the same +4 for a feat that also lets you use relics, or +5-14 for two feats that applies to all will saves ever made.

Or you just rely on your +base save +6 resistance +2-4 morale +2 luck.

Or you could get a spell with a duration of 24-48 hours cast on you.

Yeah, there is room for defense in D&D, there is no room for blowing a feat on a +4 to one very specific type of defense that is really easy to negate.
Well, I guess we disagree. Imagine that! :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-01-03, 09:46 PM
Where is Craven from? I can't find it...

For that matter, where did Savvy Rogue come from.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 09:53 PM
Craven = Champions of Ruin (FR)
Savvy Rogue = Complete Scoundrel

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablesort=1

RebelRogue
2009-01-03, 09:54 PM
Well, Complete Scoundrel had a great idea where instead of making up new PrCs that are just combinations of a couple existing classes, you could just take a feat to let levels of certain (usually weaker) classes count as levels of another class for the purpose of a few abilities.
The general idea was actually pioneered in Complete Adventurer, which has a bunch of those too. And yes, a lot of them are pretty nice.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-04, 01:21 AM
FMArthur's post reminded me of another good one: Sacred Outlaw, from Dragon # 357. This adds Rogue and Cleric levels for undead turning and sneak attack damage. A pretty decent fit using the Cloistered Cleric variant (6 skill points/level!).

Grynning
2009-01-04, 01:35 AM
Darkstalker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker,all) is pretty neat. I'm also a fan of Elusive Target (only thing that makes Dodge and Mobility worth taking) and Divine Might (makes Paladin turning useful for something), both from CWar. Plus the multi-class feats from Complete Scoundrel and Adventurer already mentioned.

sonofzeal
2009-01-04, 02:54 AM
Favorite feats....


Deep Impact - touch attacks ftw!
Instant Clarity - so broken it's not even funny, especially combined with the previous
Martial Study - just awesome; ToB for the man on the go!
Item Familiar - so broken it's not even funny.
Divine Metamagic: Persist - this one feat is almost solely responsible for Czilla, at least in practice where there's few opportunities to prebuff.*
Natural Spell - this one feat is almost solely responsible for Dzilla, at least before Shapechange.*
Improved Trip - always solid in humanoid-heavy campaigns; a focussed tripper can keep pretty much any other character flat on its back AND lay on the hurt at the same time.
Improved Grapple - always solid in humanoid-heavy campaigns; a focussed grappler can totally shut down most other characters, and rings of FoM are never as common as some people seem to suggest.
Deflect Arrows - totally shut down an entire combat style? Yes please!
Leadership - famously broken, and plain fun
Font of Inspiration - makes my favorite class awesome!
Roll With It - best DR potential this side of Mineral Warrior
ANYTHING AT ALL LISTED HERE (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) - because SAD breaks things.



* I'm aware that Cleric and Druid are entirely respectable without these two options, but combat clerics do rather rely on prebuffs, and most druids do rather rely on being able to stay in animal form, and without those the classes generally descend from "zilla" to "merely powerful".

Leon
2009-01-04, 02:55 AM
From the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide

Sharpshooter
Adds your Dex to damage with Ranged Weapons

Aurum Omius Alchemist
A number of benifits including reduced costs of potions and reduced crafting time

Advanced Synthesis
A weeks work in a Day when making Alchemicals for a harder check

Maximize Alchemy
As it says, for a slightly harder DC when crafting

Leon
2009-01-04, 03:02 AM
Deflect Arrows - totally shut down an entire combat style? Yes please!




You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.


Only shutting down a combat style if there is a Single archer shooting one arrow at a time

herrhauptmann
2009-01-04, 03:08 AM
Since you could get the same +4 for a feat that also lets you use relics, or +5-14 for two feats that applies to all will saves ever made.

Or you just rely on your +base save +6 resistance +2-4 morale +2 luck.

Or you could get a spell with a duration of 24-48 hours cast on you.

Did it occur to you that not everyone plays in games that use relics?
Are playing games at level 15 where a +5cloak of resistance is common.
Has a bard or marshal or whatever to provide you morale bonuses from his presence.
How about, not every caster takes extend/persistent spell to give you a 24 hour buff.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-04, 03:47 AM
Since I don't think anyone has mentioned it, Epic Spellcasting.:smallsmile::smallredface:

sonofzeal
2009-01-04, 04:41 AM
Only shutting down a combat style if there is a Single archer shooting one arrow at a time
Compare to a feat that lets you auto-negate one melee hit per turn, or auto-negate one spell per turn. Pretty huge, I'd say.

Unless you're facing an entire army of archers, you're not likely to have more than a couple arrows heading in your direction - and you're not just negating one shot, you're negating the BEST shot. Even with rapid shot and iterative attacks, if your AC is decent (considering the -2/-2/-7/whatever penalties the archer's taking), the chances of one hit is fairly good, but the chances of two hits on the same turn are pretty darn low.

Let's look at it this way: let's take two arrows, each with 50% chance to hit, and an iterative attack at -5 for a 25% chance to hit. If each arrow does X damage, then your Expected Value is... X*(0*.1875 + 1*0.4375 + 2*0.3125 + 3*0.0625) = 1.25*X. With Deflect Arrows though, your Expected Value is X*(0*.1875 + 0*0.4375 + 1*0.3125 + 2*0.0625) = 0.4375*X. Take the ratio, so 0.4375/1.25 = 0.35, meaning the archer is only doing 35% of his normal damage against you. All of a sudden, the Archer is instantly down to a third his normal power against you. And that number's not going to change a whole lot unless he's auto-hitting with multiple arrows every turn, in which case you're probably horribly outclassed anyway.

So. Anything that instantly and with no rolls involved reduces an entire combat style to one third power is pretty much a "shutting down" type of situation. With this one feat, you could afford to duel him, in his specialty, and have high odds of winning even if he was several levels above you. Or, taken otherwise - what would you think of a feat that gave melee attackers a 65% miss chance against you, all day long, at no other investment cost?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-04, 04:52 AM
From the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide It's not really fair to include these, as they're from a different publisher and for an entirely different setting.

Leon
2009-01-04, 05:56 AM
It's not really fair to include these, as they're from a different publisher and for an entirely different setting.

Op didn't mention anything about the source of the feats, Just feats that rock

The Mormegil
2009-01-04, 06:40 AM
I love Stormguard Warrior. And I love Font of Inspiration (at least from yesterday... when I read the Factotum. Oh, why didn't I play one when I could?).

As for something nobody has mentioned: Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

AslanCross
2009-01-04, 06:48 AM
I'm a fan of tactical feats. They're highly situational, but at least there are three situations where you actually have a use for a feat you picked. And depending on your build you could actually set up the battlefield to make them work.

Especially useful IMO is Shock Trooper, and not only for Heedless Charge. It actually makes Bull Rushing viable.

Malacode
2009-01-04, 07:06 AM
Seconding (THirding, fourthing, by now probably eighthing) Shock Trooper. Looove that feat, and it doesn't have any expecially harsh pre-reqs.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 08:54 AM
Did it occur to you that not everyone plays in games that use relics?
Are playing games at level 15 where a +5cloak of resistance is common.
Has a bard or marshal or whatever to provide you morale bonuses from his presence.
How about, not every caster takes extend/persistent spell to give you a 24 hour buff.

Did it occur to you that +4 to one type of effect is inferior to +4 to any effect and something else? Did it occur to you that everyone in the party can have a +6 Resistance bonus for free from level 11 on, +3 from level 7? Did it occur to you that having any one of the following:

Bard/Wizard/Cleric/Wand gives you a morale bonus all day?

Maybe if you actually read the rules to D&D you would know that Mindblank lasts 24 hours without persist. And completely negates all Min effecting effects.

Teron
2009-01-04, 09:11 AM
Maybe if you actually played D&D, you would know that a lot of games never even reach level 11, let alone mind blank.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 09:15 AM
Maybe if you actually played D&D, you would know that a lot of games never even reach level 11, let alone mind blank.

Maybe if you paid attention to the conversation you'd notice that I presented a feat that's better from level 1, several ways to improve your saves much more then that feat, and only used Mindblank to explain why Persis spell was not an issue.

But just in case you were wondering, a lot of games start at level 11.

Solaris
2009-01-04, 09:26 AM
At ease, gentlemen. Let's not kill each other out here.

My personal favorite's Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes. Gimme a spiked chain, Improved Trip, and a loose interpretation of the AoO rules and I'll own a battlefield.

pasko77
2009-01-04, 09:30 AM
Compare to a feat that lets you auto-negate one melee hit per turn, or auto-negate one spell per turn. Pretty huge, I'd say.

Unless you're facing an entire army of archers, you're not likely to have more than a couple arrows heading in your direction - and you're not just negating one shot, you're negating the BEST shot. Even with rapid shot and iterative attacks, if your AC is decent (considering the -2/-2/-7/whatever penalties the archer's taking), the chances of one hit is fairly good, but the chances of two hits on the same turn are pretty darn low.

Let's look at it this way: let's take two arrows, each with 50% chance to hit, and an iterative attack at -5 for a 25% chance to hit. If each arrow does X damage, then your Expected Value is... X*(0*.1875 + 1*0.4375 + 2*0.3125 + 3*0.0625) = 1.25*X. With Deflect Arrows though, your Expected Value is X*(0*.1875 + 0*0.4375 + 1*0.3125 + 2*0.0625) = 0.4375*X. Take the ratio, so 0.4375/1.25 = 0.35, meaning the archer is only doing 35% of his normal damage against you. All of a sudden, the Archer is instantly down to a third his normal power against you. And that number's not going to change a whole lot unless he's auto-hitting with multiple arrows every turn, in which case you're probably horribly outclassed anyway.

So. Anything that instantly and with no rolls involved reduces an entire combat style to one third power is pretty much a "shutting down" type of situation. With this one feat, you could afford to duel him, in his specialty, and have high odds of winning even if he was several levels above you. Or, taken otherwise - what would you think of a feat that gave melee attackers a 65% miss chance against you, all day long, at no other investment cost?

Perfect analysis, i would say.
IIRC, you need another feat as a prerequisite, so it costs 2 feats. But it's huge neverthless.

Edit: Oh, and yeah, you have to have an unoptimized weapon style (one hand free), so it is annoying, but if you have weapon finesse you wouldn't care about it.

Malacode
2009-01-04, 09:33 AM
...
As for something nobody has mentioned: Faerie Mysteries Initiate.


This I agree with, if you get it past your DM without him/her minding. Anything that shifts atributes is great in my mind. Making characters SAD is always good.

Glyde
2009-01-04, 10:12 AM
Force of Personality

Because my bard/warblade had a will save of +2 at level 8.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 10:48 AM
Perfect analysis, i would say.
IIRC, you need another feat as a prerequisite, so it costs 2 feats. But it's huge neverthless.

Edit: Oh, and yeah, you have to have an unoptimized weapon style (one hand free), so it is annoying, but if you have weapon finesse you wouldn't care about it.

Actually, this is an incredibly poor analysis, because the first thing it does is make up numbers that have nothing to do with anything and are totally wrong.

Two primary attacks and one secondary, so minimum level 6, maximum level 10 character.

Level 6:

+6 BAB +5 Dex +1 Weapon Focus +1 Weapon -2 Rapid Shot=+11/+11/+6 for 1d8+7 damage. Average AC of someone with a hand free: 10 + 8 armor + 1 Dex + 1 enhancement: AC 20, so a 60% chance of hitting on the primary attacks.

Compared to not having a hand free but instead having a shield and saving a feat, you have +3 AC or more.

Average damage against deflect arrows: 10.35 damage per round.

Average damage as a person who doesn't take the feat: 12 damage per round.

I don't think 2 damage less a round is worth a feat. And it only gets worse as you level.

At level 10:

+ 10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 Weapon Focus/Greater -2 Rapid Shot +2 Haste (boots) + 2 Weapon=+21/+21/+21/+16 (And by level 10 a splitting bow is likely, so you probably have to contend with +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20+15/+15)

Against AC 10 + 8 Armor + 1 Dex + 2 Enhancement +1 Natural +1 Deflection=23. Pretty much everything hits, and you are only removing one attack.

At low levels, a Shield is better then Deflect arrows (since you have to keep a hand open). At higher levels, Deflect arrows is only blocking one attack out of a fighting style that is known for a greater number of weaker attacks.

Deflect Arrows is pretty much never worth a feat.

Heck, doesn't do anything against a level 11 Cleric Archer with sixteen attacks.

Adumbration
2009-01-04, 11:19 AM
*facepalm*

Now you're doing something you shouldn't: purposefully using an under-optimized character. In one hand, you use a fully-optimized Clericzilla, in the other, a Warrior with lower-than-usual WBL. You have also failed to mention the possibility of a monk taking it at level 2, or a human getting it at 1. And if you're using a Fighter, you can use a buckler - it gives AC without preventing the use of the arm.

Now, if you want a better, alternative for Deflect Arrow, take a look at Block Arrow from Heroes of Battle. You can block an arrow with a shield with it.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 12:08 PM
*facepalm*

Now you're doing something you shouldn't: purposefully using an under-optimized character. In one hand, you use a fully-optimized Clericzilla, in the other, a Warrior with lower-than-usual WBL. You have also failed to mention the possibility of a monk taking it at level 2, or a human getting it at 1. And if you're using a Fighter, you can use a buckler - it gives AC without preventing the use of the arm.

Now, if you want a better, alternative for Deflect Arrow, take a look at Block Arrow from Heroes of Battle. You can block an arrow with a shield with it.

I'm purposefully using a Fighter for both characters. All my math is assuming equal level fighters, one shooting arrows, the other deflecting them.

Both have approximately the same Wealth. I'm not comparing anything.

A fully optimized Clericzilla fires, at level 11 fires 16 attacks without haste, fully half of which are at +30, each doing something on the order of 1d8+30 damage.

No where is that in my calculations. A non-Monk should never take it, and Monk should never take it if he intends to ever be higher then level 5, and a Monk that never intends to be higher then level 5 should still not take it if he ever intends to enter melee.

Lycar
2009-01-04, 12:16 PM
In one hand, you use a fully-optimized Clericzilla, ...

To be fair, it is not a fully-optmized build.

He used Weapon Focus in there.

You know, one of the the feats from the 'Feats that Suck' thread. :smallamused:

No self-respecting 'optimizer' would touch that with a 10-foot pole. Not even with an 11-foot pole. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, Shield Block is better. For S&B fighter types anyway.

Also, it is quite amusing how some people just take things for granted.

My DM would tell me to take the Libris Mortis and shove it in a very uncomfortable place if I was to inquire about Nightsticks and DMM (one of my buddies spoiled the fun for all of us by (ab)using DMM).

Incidentially, it wouldn't be so bad if you would rule Nightsticks to work like powerstones for a Psi: The Turn Attempts to power DMM all have to come out of one, and only source. Either your own allowance of Turn Attemps or one, single, Nightstick. Makes it a lot less broken.

Lycar

Roythebattousai
2009-01-04, 12:28 PM
Throw anything

Exotic Weapon Proficiancy: Electric Guitar.

Is Electric Guitar really a weapon? What book is it from?

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 02:22 PM
To be fair, it is not a fully-optmized build.

He used Weapon Focus in there.

You know, one of the the feats from the 'Feats that Suck' thread. :smallamused:

No self-respecting 'optimizer' would touch that with a 10-foot pole. Not even with an 11-foot pole. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, Shield Block is better. For S&B fighter types anyway.

Also, it is quite amusing how some people just take things for granted.

My DM would tell me to take the Libris Mortis and shove it in a very uncomfortable place if I was to inquire about Nightsticks and DMM (one of my buddies spoiled the fun for all of us by (ab)using DMM).

Incidentially, it wouldn't be so bad if you would rule Nightsticks to work like powerstones for a Psi: The Turn Attempts to power DMM all have to come out of one, and only source. Either your own allowance of Turn Attemps or one, single, Nightstick. Makes it a lot less broken.

Lycar

Even better, and more sensible, is just to allow the character to use his innate power to power up spells; being able to fuel his magic with items requires way more channeling than just channeling his divine power into his spells. This is how I rule it; everything derived from your ability scores, base classes and feats is a fair game, while items and outside sources cannot fuel DMM.

Of course, this just means most DMM Clerics cram Extra Turnings to all their feat slots which opens up another bag of problems; monotonous characters. It also opens up the can of worms of being able to use non-Undead Turnings for DMM (which effectively doubles your uses of Turn and thus, DMM); easy fix is making those domains just allow using Turn Undead to turn the "whatever type of creature", however, that requires some other boost to those domains as they're a tad weak that way; maybe few extra uses of Turning or whatever.

dyslexicfaser
2009-01-04, 02:41 PM
I like Dragonfire Adepts. They have a feat called Entangling Exhalation that cuts their damage in half but turns their breath weapon into... well... an entangling breath weapon. Very nasty.

My favorite feat chain comes to us from the Dragonlance campaign setting. Not obscure at all, right? It goes like this: Flyby Attack -> Flyby Breath -> Strafing Breath.

Once you have Flyby Breath, you can take take a double move and breath weapon people as a free action during your move. Once you tack on Strafing Breath, you can breathe a cone of whatever breath weapon you're using for half your move speed. With a Dragonfire Adept's flying invocation, that's either 15ft (for the inferior version) or 30ft (for the better one). If you're actually managing to play a small dragon... that's more like laying down a 100ft-long breath weapon as you fly by.

Raze armies, villages... anything that had the poor sense to keep their feet (or houses) on the ground.

sonofzeal
2009-01-04, 03:23 PM
Actually, this is an incredibly poor analysis, because the first thing it does is make up numbers that have nothing to do with anything and are totally wrong.

Two primary attacks and one secondary, so minimum level 6, maximum level 10 character.

Level 6:

+6 BAB +5 Dex +1 Weapon Focus +1 Weapon -2 Rapid Shot=+11/+11/+6 for 1d8+7 damage. Average AC of someone with a hand free: 10 + 8 armor + 1 Dex + 1 enhancement: AC 20, so a 60% chance of hitting on the primary attacks.

Compared to not having a hand free but instead having a shield and saving a feat, you have +3 AC or more.

Average damage against deflect arrows: 10.35 damage per round.

Average damage as a person who doesn't take the feat: 12 damage per round.

I don't think 2 damage less a round is worth a feat. And it only gets worse as you level.

At level 10:

+ 10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 Weapon Focus/Greater -2 Rapid Shot +2 Haste (boots) + 2 Weapon=+21/+21/+21/+16 (And by level 10 a splitting bow is likely, so you probably have to contend with +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20+15/+15)

Against AC 10 + 8 Armor + 1 Dex + 2 Enhancement +1 Natural +1 Deflection=23. Pretty much everything hits, and you are only removing one attack.

At low levels, a Shield is better then Deflect arrows (since you have to keep a hand open). At higher levels, Deflect arrows is only blocking one attack out of a fighting style that is known for a greater number of weaker attacks.

Deflect Arrows is pretty much never worth a feat.

Heck, doesn't do anything against a level 11 Cleric Archer with sixteen attacks.
1) Bucklers provide a shield bonus, can be enchancted, and keep a hand free.

2) Removing a hand from a twohanded weapon is a free action and doesn't cause you to drop the weapon. Any powerattacking barbarian with a greatsword can keep his offhand free except for the exact moment when he's hitting you with his sword. You could ready your attack for then, but then you're {a} losing actions, and {b} taking AoO 'cause he's right next to you and you have no time to five-foot-step. Also, the archer has no clue which targets have this defence, and can only find out by wasting actions in combat and firing arrows that have little to no chance of hitting.

3) Anyone with Dex 13 can qualify for those feats. That includes Barbarians (who as mentioned can usually spare a hand), Druids (who will almost ALWAYS have both hands free while Wildshaped), and Sorc/Wiz (who have little reason to hold anything in their hands either). The only people who can't profit from that feat are TWFers, people who use the heavier shields, and people with less than 13 Dex.

4) I used nice average numbers there. You want me to rerun it all with 60%/60%/35% or whatever? Feel free to do it yourself then.

Flickerdart
2009-01-04, 03:31 PM
Wildshaped Druids won't necessarily have hands free because it is quite likely they no longer have any hands at all.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 04:11 PM
1) Bucklers provide a shield bonus, can be enchancted, and keep a hand free.

2) Removing a hand from a twohanded weapon is a free action and doesn't cause you to drop the weapon. Any powerattacking barbarian with a greatsword can keep his offhand free except for the exact moment when he's hitting you with his sword. You could ready your attack for then, but then you're {a} losing actions, and {b} taking AoO 'cause he's right next to you and you have no time to five-foot-step. Also, the archer has no clue which targets have this defence, and can only find out by wasting actions in combat and firing arrows that have little to no chance of hitting.

3) Anyone with Dex 13 can qualify for those feats. That includes Barbarians (who as mentioned can usually spare a hand), Druids (who will almost ALWAYS have both hands free while Wildshaped), and Sorc/Wiz (who have little reason to hold anything in their hands either). The only people who can't profit from that feat are TWFers, people who use the heavier shields, and people with less than 13 Dex.

4) I used nice average numbers there. You want me to rerun it all with 60%/60%/35% or whatever? Feel free to do it yourself then.

2) Except then you give up all AoO, because you can't wield your weapon. It's not a good idea.

3) So people with better feats to take, people with better feats to take, people with better feats to take, and oh, people with better feats to take.

4) The point is that the worth of a feat hinges on the actual chance of to hit and damage.

If you say that the average archer has a 5% chance to hit, then blocking the one successful hit each round looks useful. If they on the other hand have a 95% chance of hitting on all three attacks, then blocking one is much less useful.

And the fact is that after about level 8, the chance to hit is very, very good. So blocking one of three arrows isn't very impressive at all, one of 6, even less so.

So yeah, deflect arrows is always bad after level 5. And the math is important. The chance to hit is what makes it bad. Just like the high chance to hit, and auto hitting on a 2, is what makes power attack a must have for melee fighters.

TempusCCK
2009-01-04, 04:53 PM
+6 BAB +5 Dex +1 Weapon Focus +1 Weapon -2 Rapid Shot=+11/+11/+6 for 1d8+7 damage. Average AC of someone with a hand free: 10 + 8 armor + 1 Dex + 1 enhancement: AC 20, so a 60% chance of hitting on the primary attacks.

This is a totally biased idea of the average AC of someone with a free hand. chances are, by the time you're using iteritive attacks of the magnitude you speak of, a fighter will have a much higher AC than what you're talking about, certainly more than +1 enhancement only.

You're skewing the AC to support your argument, which is quite frankly, childish, and something I expect from Fanboys.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-04, 05:00 PM
It also opens up the can of worms of being able to use non-Undead Turnings for DMM (which effectively doubles your uses of Turn and thus, DMM); easy fix is making those domains just allow using Turn Undead to turn the "whatever type of creature", however, that requires some other boost to those domains as they're a tad weak that way; maybe few extra uses of Turning or whatever. Extra Turning does indeed apply to all types of turning/rebuking, not just undead. But Divine Metamagic can only be powered by undead turn/rebuke attempts. That's the RAW, and there's absolutely no reason to deviate from it.

fractic
2009-01-04, 05:09 PM
This is a totally biased idea of the average AC of someone with a free hand. chances are, by the time you're using iteritive attacks of the magnitude you speak of, a fighter will have a much higher AC than what you're talking about, certainly more than +1 enhancement only.

You're skewing the AC to support your argument, which is quite frankly, childish, and something I expect from Fanboys.

He's hardly doing that. WBL of level 6 is 13.000. +1 full plate is 2500. Sure a fighter could spend a bit more. Cheapest ways would be ring of deflection and amulet of natural armor for 2000 each. Now one of those would be possible but is far from a given at level 6. Two of those would take up half of WBL just on AC which is ridiculous.

Kris Strife
2009-01-04, 05:12 PM
Is Electric Guitar really a weapon? What book is it from?

Solid metal or plastic, long handle and highly stretched wires. I wouldnt want to get hit by it.

And making one in D&D: Guitar +Shocking Grasp. :p

Hm... Anyone wanna stat that as a weapon?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-04, 05:16 PM
This is a totally biased idea of the average AC of someone with a free hand. chances are, by the time you're using iteritive attacks of the magnitude you speak of, a fighter will have a much higher AC than what you're talking about, certainly more than +1 enhancement only.

You're skewing the AC to support your argument, which is quite frankly, childish, and something I expect from Fanboys.

You mean at level 6? Did you look at the BAB? It's a level 6 character.

I assumed that a +1 Fullplate is enough, since after that comes things like Str boosters, Con boosters, Haste Boots, What is the average AC of a level 6 character then?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-04, 05:32 PM
Is Electric Guitar really a weapon? What book is it from?

It's called an Axe in at least some source books I could mention...

Bakkan
2009-01-04, 06:19 PM
Wrote up an Electric Guitar, for whomever was asking about that:

Electric Guitar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5592166#post5592166)

Lycar
2009-01-04, 07:12 PM
2) Removing a hand from a twohanded weapon is a free action and doesn't cause you to drop the weapon. Any powerattacking barbarian with a greatsword can keep his offhand free except for the exact moment when he's hitting you with his sword. You could ready your attack for then, but then you're {a} losing actions, and {b} taking AoO 'cause he's right next to you and you have no time to five-foot-step. Also, the archer has no clue which targets have this defence, and can only find out by wasting actions in combat and firing arrows that have little to no chance of hitting.

Sorry, that doesn't work. Free actions only happen on your own turn, so once you have committed yourself to using a two-handed attack, you can't use a free action to 'get a hand free' with a free action on someone else's turn.

That would be an Immediate action.

Which I'd figure would be fair use, what with having spent the feat(s) and all that. A shield fighter with Shield Block is still better off though.

Lycar

Ethrael
2009-01-04, 07:46 PM
Quickdraw.

That's all I have to say. Plus billions of other ones like Birth Feats, Weapon Style Feats, Tactical Feats, and obviously Epic Feats, I just find Quickdraw as the simplest, most basic and yet mandatory feat of all. :smalltongue:

Teron
2009-01-04, 09:21 PM
You know you can draw a weapon and move all in one move action, right? Quick draw is rarely useful, unless of course you're specialising in throwing weapons.


Sorry, that doesn't work. Free actions only happen on your own turn, so once you have committed yourself to using a two-handed attack, you can't use a free action to 'get a hand free' with a free action on someone else's turn.

That would be an Immediate action.

Which I'd figure would be fair use, what with having spent the feat(s) and all that. A shield fighter with Shield Block is still better off though.

Lycar
Of course it works. You can take a free action on your turn, after attacking, to take a hand off your weapon so you're ready to deflect an arrow on anyone else's turn (at the expense of your ability to make AoO's, of course).

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 09:29 PM
You know you can draw a weapon and move all in one move action, right? Quick draw is rarely useful, unless of course you're specialising in throwing weapons.

Yes, but not during a Charge (which sorta makes sense), which is why you generally don't want to have to draw weapons while starting a fight. It's got its uses; mostly I use Quick Draw for UMD-characters to Wand and fight, and characters with multiple weapons though (and Rogues with related skill tricks). In addition to characters who'd be interested in throwing, of course (I often have my Rogues with the backup idea of throwing Daggers when wanting to keep distance while still doing a full attack worth of sneaks).

The Glyphstone
2009-01-04, 09:37 PM
And don't forget Iajatsu Focus cheese as well.

Teron
2009-01-04, 09:49 PM
Yes, but not during a Charge (which sorta makes sense), which is why you generally don't want to have to draw weapons while starting a fight. It's got its uses; mostly I use Quick Draw for UMD-characters to Wand and fight, and characters with multiple weapons though (and Rogues with related skill tricks). In addition to characters who'd be interested in throwing, of course (I often have my Rogues with the backup idea of throwing Daggers when wanting to keep distance while still doing a full attack worth of sneaks).
If you're expecting a fight, you usually just keep your weapon in hand. It's fairly rare that you'll be both caught by surprise and able and willing to charge on your first turn. It happens, certainly, but not often enough to justify the feat expenditure from a purely mechanical perspective (of course that's not the only basis on which one might choose feats, but it is the one we're discussing at the moment). As for wands and such, using them is a standard action anyway, so Quick Draw only matters if you want to do something besides moving with your move action (again, not especially common).

That said, I concede that both of those together, plus throwing weapons as a back-up plan (as opposed to your main fighting style, in which case it is of course a necessity), might justify taking the feat.

sonofzeal
2009-01-04, 10:02 PM
Wildshaped Druids won't necessarily have hands free because it is quite likely they no longer have any hands at all.
There's no reason something with claws/paws couldn't qualify, which covers most things you'd want to wildshape into. Otherwise you get silly things like Lizardfolk not being able to wield any weapons ever because they have "claws" not "hands", despite being listed with clubs and javelins.


Sorry, that doesn't work. Free actions only happen on your own turn, so once you have committed yourself to using a two-handed attack, you can't use a free action to 'get a hand free' with a free action on someone else's turn.

That would be an Immediate action.

Which I'd figure would be fair use, what with having spent the feat(s) and all that. A shield fighter with Shield Block is still better off though.

Lycar
But a free action can be done as many times per turn as you want. Free action to take a hand off your greatsword at the end of your turn, free action to put it back on at the start of your turn.


2) Except then you give up all AoO, because you can't wield your weapon. It's not a good idea.
You have Improved Unarmed though, so you still get your AoO, and even if your unarmed damage isn't good you can still use it for, say, a grapple attack. Few things ruins a person's day like getting grappled off an AoO.


3) So people with better feats to take, people with better feats to take, people with better feats to take, and oh, people with better feats to take.
I still dispute that. Qualifying for it also qualifies you for Improved Grapple, which is awesome offensively for Barbarians and Druids. Mages especially are usually ripe targets for archers, who often try to disrupt spellcasting with well-timed arrows. It's a totally valid archer strategy and one I've seen used more than once to good effect (especially by scouts/OotBIs who get really powerful single arrows), but since there's only a single arrow coming then it's completely and utterly negated by Deflect Arrows.


4) The point is that the worth of a feat hinges on the actual chance of to hit and damage.

If you say that the average archer has a 5% chance to hit, then blocking the one successful hit each round looks useful. If they on the other hand have a 95% chance of hitting on all three attacks, then blocking one is much less useful.

And the fact is that after about level 8, the chance to hit is very, very good. So blocking one of three arrows isn't very impressive at all, one of 6, even less so.

So yeah, deflect arrows is always bad after level 5. And the math is important. The chance to hit is what makes it bad. Just like the high chance to hit, and auto hitting on a 2, is what makes power attack a must have for melee fighters.
I'm not disputing that the exact numbers make a difference. You're right, if you're guaranteed three hits a round, reducing it to two isn't all that big a deal (although, really, still far from trivial and enough to act as a significant deterrent). But I still think you're overestimating accuracy.

You say at level 8 the to-hit odds are good? Going through my files I see four characters in the ECL 7-12 bracket: a Barbarian at lvl9 with a +14/+9 and AC 24. A lvl13 Rogue with a +14/+11/+11/+9 and AC 32. A lvl 7 Crusader with +13/+8 and 26 AC. A lvl12 Monk with +19/+19 and AC 35.

The first has a 69% chance of hitting himself at least once (but only 17% of hitting himself twice), the second a 23%, the third a 41%, the forth a 36%. All were totally playable characters, and all were powerhouses in combat for various reasons. Now, I fully admit that my characters tend to be more defensively-oriented than most, but I deliberately excluded my Dwarven Defender from this list for that reason; these are all characters that expect to do significant damage. But given those numbers, if you translate to archery (and the same sorts of modifiers work there, so it's no big leap), then each would be pretty thoroughly screwed by a "Deflect Arrows". YMMV... but this is from actual play experience.

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 10:05 PM
If you're expecting a fight, you usually just keep your weapon in hand. It's fairly rare that you'll be both caught by surprise and able and willing to charge on your first turn. It happens, certainly, but not often enough to justify the feat expenditure from a purely mechanical perspective (of course that's not the only basis on which one might choose feats, but it is the one we're discussing at the moment). As for wands and such, using them is a standard action anyway, so Quick Draw only matters if you want to do something besides moving with your move action (again, not especially common).

That said, I concede that both of those together, plus throwing weapons as a back-up plan (as opposed to your main fighting style, in which case it is of course a necessity), might justify taking the feat.

Wands of swift action spells are actually swift actions to use, which is why the ability to go...say Wand of Lion's Charge, drop Wand, draw weapons, Charge is actually really handy.

Person_Man
2009-01-05, 01:34 PM
General:
Item Familiar
Leadership
Ancestral Weapon
Magic Device Attunement
Sociable Personality (Half Elf)
Dragonwrought (Kobold)
Knowledge Devotion + Trivial Knowledge (Gnome)
Frightful Presence or Daunting Presence (high Cha)
Imperious Command (high Cha)
Shape Soulmeld

Arcane Caster:
Arcane Thesis
Easy Metamagic
Quicken Spell
Retributive Spell
Practical Metamagic
Obtain Familiar
Flyby Attack
Extraordinary Concentration
Energy Substitution -> Lord of the Uttercold
Faeries Mysteries Initiate

Gish:
Arcane Strike
Smiting Spell
Obtain Familiar (if necessary) -> Improved Familiar

Defensive Melee:
Combat Reflexes -> Stand Still
Evasive Reflexes -> Hold the Line
Improved Unarmed Strike -> Imp Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp
Power Attack -> Imp Bull Rush -> Knockback (Powerful Build)
Combat Expertise -> Imp Trip -> Knock-Down
Mage Slayer -> Blind Fighting -> Pierce Magical Concealment
Combat Focus -> Combat Vitality + Combat Stability
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach -> Extended Reach
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall
Martial Stance
Goad
Shield Specialization -> Shield Ward
Heavy Armor Optimization -> Deflective Armor

Offensive Melee:
Power Attack -> Leap Attack -> Imp Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper (full BAB)
Battle Jump
Headlong Rush (Orcish blood)
Mounted Combat -> Ride by Attack -> Spirited Charge
Combat Reflexes -> Karmic Strike -> Robilar's Gambit (high Dex)
Stormguard Warrior + related combo
Martial Study
Combat Reflexes -> TWF tree -> Double Hit
Lightning Maces (with Aptitude weapon)

Metabreath:
Quicken Breath
Clinging Breath
Entangling Breath

Psionic:
Expanded Knowledge
Metamorphic Transfer
Overchannel
Inquisitor
Speed of Thought -> Psionic Charge
Psionic Meditation + Hustle

Barbarian:
Extra Rage
Steadfast Determination

Bard:
Song of the Heart
Words of Creation
Dragonfire Inspiration
Song of the White Raven
Snowflake Wardance
Doomspeak

Cleric:
Divine Metamagic
Easy Metamagic
Quicken Spell
Retributive Spell
Persistent Spell
Arctic Priest or Priest of the Waste
Domain Spontaneity
Touch of Healing
Energy Substitution -> Lord of the Uttercold + summoned undead
Zen Archery
Travel Devotion
Law Devotion
Animal Devotion
Death Devotion
Plant Devotion

Druid:
Natural Spell
Quicken Spell
Augment Summoning
Beast Totem
Greenbound Summoning
Imbued Summoning
Rashemi Elemental Summoning
Assume Supernatural Ability
Aberration Blood-> Aberration Wild Shape
Frozen Wild Shape
Draconic Wild Shape

Factotum:
Font of Inspiration

Monk:
Freezing the Lifeblood
Touch of Golden Ice
Weakening Touch
Pharaoh's Fist
Carmendine Monk
Snap Kick
Monastic Training -> Tashalatora
Sand Dancer

Paladin:
Sword of the Arcane Order
Battle Blessing
Awesome Smite
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Travel Devotion
Law Devotion
Animal Devotion
Death Devotion
Plant Devotion

Ranger:
Sword of the Arcane Order
Nemesis
Wise to Your Ways
Oversized TWF
Quickdraw
Swift Hunter
Indomitable Soul

Rogue-ish:
Craven
Staggering Strike
Dragonfire Strike (bypasses Sneak Attack Immunity if your DM is nice)
Savvy Rogue
Undo Resistance
Silencing Strike (Whisper Gnome with Extra Silence)
Devoted Inquisitor (if you can figure out a way to get a lot of Smite Evil)
Weapon Finesse + Shadowblade (if big difference between Dex and Str)
Darkstalker
Point Blank Shot -> Rapidshot -> Manyshot -> Greater Manyshot
Combat Reflexes -> Vexing Flanker -> Adaptable Flanker
Two Weapon Fighting tree
Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk
Dive for Cover

Did I miss anything?

Thurbane
2009-01-05, 04:09 PM
Nice list PM! :smallsmile:

I would add that feat that allows Binders to bind higher level vestiges (Improved Binding?) as an almost essential class-based feat.

sonofzeal
2009-01-05, 06:54 PM
Druids could use Ashbound Summoning (at least in the lvl 1-8 range, which honestly is where most campaigns happen, and is still solid later). Improved Grapple is a seriously good one for them too (given their potential size and strength - and note that they're still humanoid and hence able to use Enlarge Person for even more size).

Psionics needs Deep Impact and Fell Shot; both feats rock. Expanded Knowledge would be good too.

I'd remove "Zen Archery" from the Cleric list; it's a nice one to remember about, but very niche.

Arcane Caster needs "Faeries Mysteries Initiate", possibly the most stupidly broken feat for Wizards ever.

Person_Man
2009-01-05, 10:21 PM
Druids could use Ashbound Summoning (at least in the lvl 1-8 range, which honestly is where most campaigns happen, and is still solid later).

Meh. Double Summon duration and +3 Luck bonus to hit is really only useful at levels 1-4 IMO. Beyond that, I don't see it having that much of an impact unless your DM is fond of marathon combats.


Improved Grapple is a seriously good one for them too (given their potential size and strength - and note that they're still humanoid and hence able to use Enlarge Person for even more size).

Agreed. Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp is on the Defensive Melee list. So if a Druid wants to focus on melee, any feat of that list (except maybe the armor and shield feats) would be good choices.



Psionics needs Deep Impact and Fell Shot; both feats rock.

I disagree somewhat on this one. Either will give you 1 touch attack when you expend your psionic focus. With a Psicrystal or Psionic Meditation trick, you can make it once per round. If you really need touch attacks, you can take Magic Device Attunement, invest a few ranks in UMD cross class, and buy a wand of Flame Blade or Fire Dagger or Spectral Weapon or Wraithstrike or various buff spells or whatnot.



Expanded Knowledge would be good too.

Nice catch. I've added it to my list.


I'd remove "Zen Archery" from the Cleric list; it's a nice one to remember about, but very niche.

I'll agree that its niche. But I'd say that any Cleric who takes Zen Archery and then casts 2-4 buff spells can be a great archer. It works well as a backup tactic if your DM is fond of anti-magic shenanigans, and when he doesn't it works well at every level if you bother to invest in a decent bow. So taking it opens up an entirely new tactic at a relatively low investment. Not necessarily an indispensable tactic (you can just cast blast spells or summon), but a good one.


Arcane Caster needs "Faeries Mysteries Initiate", possibly the most stupidly broken feat for Wizards ever.

Oh dear gods I can't believe I haven't seen that feat before. Using Int instead of Con to determine bonus hit points is a bit crazy, and can make a Wizard with some decent Save boosting items completely SAD. Definitely added to the list.

sonofzeal
2009-01-05, 11:03 PM
Meh. Double Summon duration and +3 Luck bonus to hit is really only useful at levels 1-4 IMO. Beyond that, I don't see it having that much of an impact unless your DM is fond of marathon combats.
It does open up a whole new tactics though, fully functional as both long distance artillery (that doesn't reveal your location or require LoS/LoE), or as scouts. For example, you can summon a whole series of monsters and then send them all out at once without the first ones popping back prematurely; you can summon heavy-hitting creatures (Hippogriffs earlier, Dire Lions, Greater Elementals later) to strike at the enemy location without exposing yourself to danger; you can summon a fast moving creature to scout a long distance away and still get back to you to report.

I mean, really - it's like "Extend Spell" except it doesn't change the spell level (!!!). The +3 on attack rolls is just icing on the cake, and STILL not too shabby if you're using them regularly.


Agreed. Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp is on the Defensive Melee list. So if a Druid wants to focus on melee, any feat of that list (except maybe the armor and shield feats) would be good choices.
Ah, missed that. Sorry.


I disagree somewhat on this one. Either will give you 1 touch attack when you expend your psionic focus. With a Psicrystal or Psionic Meditation trick, you can make it once per round. If you really need touch attacks, you can take Magic Device Attunement, invest a few ranks in UMD cross class, and buy a wand of Flame Blade or Fire Dagger or Spectral Weapon or Wraithstrike or various buff spells or whatnot.
.....can you Power Attack with those?

Also, even better than doing psicrystal+meditation, is doing Instant Clarity from ToB. Deep Impact + maneuver of choice + Power Attack + two-handed weapon = death... and IC lets you do that every turn and still keep your move actions for better things.


Nice catch. I've added it to my list.
Thanks!


I'll agree that its niche. But I'd say that any Cleric who takes Zen Archery and then casts 2-4 buff spells can be a great archer. It works well as a backup tactic if your DM is fond of anti-magic shenanigans, and when he doesn't it works well at every level if you bother to invest in a decent bow. So taking it opens up an entirely new tactic at a relatively low investment. Not necessarily an indispensable tactic (you can just cast blast spells or summon), but a good one.
Well, it's a feat I've used so I won't protest too much. I just think archery in general gets so thoroughly hosed in D&D, that something that allows a character with way better options to be "merely average" at archery is... meh. But it's you're list.



Oh dear gods I can't believe I haven't seen that feat before. Using Int instead of Con to determine bonus hit points is a bit crazy, and can make a Wizard with some decent Save boosting items completely SAD. Definitely added to the list.
:smallcool:

Blood_Lord
2009-01-06, 12:12 AM
Well, it's a feat I've used so I won't protest too much. I just think archery in general gets so thoroughly hosed in D&D, that something that allows a character with way better options to be "merely average" at archery is... meh. But it's you're list.

Cleric Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=98162).

Oh, and that attack routine, I had to split it up, but all 16 attacks are full attack, not hasted.

And he's still missing more then a few spells that buff attack and damage. Probably +5-7 more damage for each arrow, 7-10 more to hit.

Granted some DMs get into conitions about DMM Persist, but a Cleric Archer is already going to have high wisdom, Cleric Archer was the original Clericzilla, and Zen Archery is no small part.

Fizban
2009-01-06, 01:00 AM
.....can you Power Attack with those?
Yes. Flame Blade is "wielded as a scimitar", Spectral Weapon creates any weapon you're proficient with, and Wraithstrike just alters your existing attacks. The clause in Flame Blade about not applying your strength bonus to damage means nothing because Power Attack isn't a strength bonus. Sadly, Flame Dagger won't work, because a dagger is a light weapon.

Other spells to consider are Scimitar of Sand, Blade of Pain and Fear, and Decastave. I personally like Spectral Weapon the most, because it lasts for a few rounds and is only a swift action to cast. The image of a guy flourishing his hand, in which appears a scythe made of solid darkness that sweeps through your armor as if it were nothing, is awesome. Even if they make the save you're still getting 1 for 1 damage on power attack and hitting their touch AC.

It's also worthwhile to note that a single wand of Flame Blade or Scimitar of Sand only costs 4,500gp, and even if you use it every fight should last for nearly 4 levels. Grab a Metamagic Wand Grip [Quicken] and put in in a Wand Chamber in your armor so it's always at hand and can be "drawn" as a swift action in an emergency.

Person_Man
2009-01-06, 10:05 AM
Yes. Flame Blade is "wielded as a scimitar", Spectral Weapon creates any weapon you're proficient with, and Wraithstrike just alters your existing attacks. The clause in Flame Blade about not applying your strength bonus to damage means nothing because Power Attack isn't a strength bonus. Sadly, Flame Dagger won't work, because a dagger is a light weapon.

Other spells to consider are Scimitar of Sand, Blade of Pain and Fear, and Decastave. I personally like Spectral Weapon the most, because it lasts for a few rounds and is only a swift action to cast. The image of a guy flourishing his hand, in which appears a scythe made of solid darkness that sweeps through your armor as if it were nothing, is awesome. Even if they make the save you're still getting 1 for 1 damage on power attack and hitting their touch AC.

It's also worthwhile to note that a single wand of Flame Blade or Scimitar of Sand only costs 4,500gp, and even if you use it every fight should last for nearly 4 levels. Grab a Metamagic Wand Grip [Quicken] and put in in a Wand Chamber in your armor so it's always at hand and can be "drawn" as a swift action in an emergency.

Seconded.

If you pick up a Wand of Greater Invisibility or a Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment, then you're hitting your enemy's Flat Footed Touch AC, which means that you basically hit most enemies 95% of the time.

But I'd add that you should only use such tactics during the final boss fights and when you're near death. If you do it too often, you'll soon be sent on a quest to defeat that damb crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301), because your DM feels that you need a challenge.

Jera
2009-01-06, 08:00 PM
Divine Sorcery

One extra spell per day, plus its a divine spell, and you can change it every day? Sign me up please.

Assassin89
2009-01-06, 08:04 PM
Augment Healing and Sacred Boost

My cleric has these feats, and they are effective in quickly healing my party members.

sonofzeal
2009-01-06, 09:42 PM
Augment Healing and Sacred Boost

My cleric has these feats, and they are effective in quickly healing my party members.
AFAIK, Augment Healing doesn't boost Lesser Vigor, and hence even a boosted CLW (1d8+2+CL = 6.5+CL) is inferior to an unboosted LV (10+CL). Save yourself a feat, do more healing.

The downside is it's more of an out-of-combat thing since it takes some time... but on the flip side, you can Extend it, Persist it, or just plain cast it before battle starts and save yourself combat actions, with the added bonus of making you auto-pass Stabilize rolls. In-combat healing is generally going to be sub-par even with Augment anyway.

monty
2009-01-06, 10:02 PM
AFAIK, Augment Healing doesn't boost Lesser Vigor, and hence even a boosted CLW (1d8+2+CL = 6.5+CL) is inferior to an unboosted LV (10+CL). Save yourself a feat, do more healing.

The downside is it's more of an out-of-combat thing since it takes some time... but on the flip side, you can Extend it, Persist it, or just plain cast it before battle starts and save yourself combat actions, with the added bonus of making you auto-pass Stabilize rolls. In-combat healing is generally going to be sub-par even with Augment anyway.

Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor = essentially infinite out-of-combat healing for the whole party.

Assassin89
2009-01-06, 10:10 PM
I though of another feat, but I forget the name.

It allows your caster level be equal to your character level for arcane spells

The Glyphstone
2009-01-06, 10:16 PM
I though of another feat, but I forget the name.

It allows your caster level be equal to your character level for arcane spells

...That HAS to be a third-party feat. The only thing I can think of close to it in WoTC material is Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL for a single class, cannot exceed your total character level).

tyckspoon
2009-01-06, 10:18 PM
I though of another feat, but I forget the name.

It allows your caster level be equal to your character level for arcane spells

Most likely Practiced Spellcaster. It increases your caster level by 4, up to your total HD. Somewhat useful, although limited in function- it just does your caster level. That doesn't include the really important parts of being a caster, like more spells/day and especially higher level spells. The 5th level of Abjurant Champion does something similar by making your caster level= your BAB, but it's pretty useless- if you can't get the same effect by just taking Practiced Spellcaster instead, you've burnt too many levels in other classes.

monty
2009-01-06, 10:18 PM
I though of another feat, but I forget the name.

It allows your caster level be equal to your character level for arcane spells

You're probably thinking of Practiced Spellcaster, which gives you +4 CL up to your total hit dice.

Edit: Double-Ninja'ed.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 10:23 PM
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but, for those who love to dine upon cheese, Craft Contingent Spell does the trick.

Kroy
2009-01-06, 10:23 PM
Daring Outlaw
Leadership - Just plain awesome
Natural Spell - Most overpowered feat. Ever. (Sadly enough it's core)
Shock Trooper
Swift Ambusher
Weapon Finesse

Douglas
2009-01-07, 06:58 AM
I though of another feat, but I forget the name.

It allows your caster level be equal to your character level for arcane spells
The closest thing to that I can think of is the Martial Arcanist ability Abjurant Champions get at 5th level, which sets your caster level in a single arcane class to your BAB if it wasn't already better. As qualifying for the class in the first place generally involves losing at least one point of BAB and that ability only affects caster level, not spell progression, it's not actually all that great.

Lycar
2009-01-07, 06:47 PM
Of course it works. You can take a free action on your turn, after attacking, to take a hand off your weapon so you're ready to deflect an arrow on anyone else's turn (at the expense of your ability to make AoO's, of course).

Ach, that is just the old problem with the artificial turn based comabt. People don't take turns whacking each other and standing still while it's 'not their turn'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally in favour of allowing someone who took the Deflect Arrows feat to use it. Even if he fights two-handed. But then that requires a bit more attention then just having the hand free. Can't just let go of your sword mid-swing without ruining the attack. Hence the requirement of an Immediate action.

You already can only use Deflect Arrows once a turn. Making it an Immediate action for a TH-Fighter is just the price he pays for trying to have his cake and eat it.

Someone with a free hand gets to keep his Immediate action. He is already disadvantaged by not having a shield (except bucklers, they leave your hand free after all) or off-hand weapon.

For a ToB character this is a tough choice, since many manouvers are Immediate actions. Then again, they don't need two-handed weapons to deal humungous amounts of damage, so... :smallwink:

Alternativly you could rule that people who keep a hand free get to deflect a number of missiles each turn equal to their number of iterative attacks. Which favours people with higher BAB.

Lycar