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Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 01:10 PM
Here's the deal. Take any one 20th level core class of a PHB race and put him on a street in a town/city. He/she is in a crowded street of commoners (say hundred or three - and only commoners). Suddenly, for some reason, they all turn hostile. Without using a specific item, such as Boots of Teleportation, which classes survive and why? What do specific classes do that will save them that other classes can't do?

NOTE: Anybody can create a character of any class that can get out of this without specific items. The idea is to use a roughly standard character of 20 pure levels of one core class. The point is that, for example, a 20th level fighter has what it takes to fight his way out, but cleric (who can fight some) does not.

1. (this made us laugh) The Diviner would either not be there in the first place, or be running down the street saying " I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN!"

2. I give the cleric the least chance to survive, simply because they can't/don't specialize in anything that can help them survive this except healing, which probably wouldn't get to be useful. (also, not cleric bashing, clerics are fine, just probably not in this situation)

What do you think? What do you think the specific character classes would/could do (including specialized wizards)?

TengYt
2009-01-03, 01:13 PM
All classes. I don't think a few hundred commoners can do a damn thing to any level 20 core class. And regardless of what you think, a Cleric has probably the best chance of "winning".

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 01:14 PM
The wizard's got it easy, he'll just teleport out (or become ethereal, or whatever).

The bard's got it even easier. Suddenly, for no reason, they all turn hostile - then a few seconds later, for another reason, they all turn friendly again.

BRC
2009-01-03, 01:14 PM
Normally? Any of them, the commoners will be doing,at most, 1d6+1 damage if they have a club and used their proficiency with it. Considering that, at 20th level, any character should have a considerably high AC, He can walk right through the commoners.


Now, if they form a Mob from Cityscape, it's different. A Mob is supposed to be about 16-20 Individuals, and can dish out considerable hurt. Also, it dosn't need an attack roll.

TengYt
2009-01-03, 01:18 PM
Fighter: "When I took Great Cleave, they all laughed. WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW?!"

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 01:18 PM
The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-03, 01:23 PM
2. I give the cleric the least chance to survive, simply because they can't/don't specialize in anything that can help them survive this except healing, which probably wouldn't get to be useful. (also, not cleric bashing, clerics are fine, just probably not in this situation)


You do realize that clerics are the strongest core melee class, maybe apart from druids, right?

I'd say that there is no PC class that'd have any trouble to take down 300 commoners at level 20, one way or another - even Complete Warrior samurai. It helps that only 8 commoners can attack you at once, unless for some reason they have ranged weapons.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-03, 01:29 PM
Rock. Rotten vegetables. Chickens.

Commoners have plenty of ranged weaponry.


And I'm going to agree that not a single lv 20 class would have any difficulty, assuming the commoners aren't twinked out specifically (say like turning into a mob).

TengYt
2009-01-03, 01:31 PM
The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.

A level 20 character can feel fatigue from the effects of a few hundred commoners?

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 01:34 PM
Alright, to get my point across, what if they were 15th level? or 10th?

Vortling
2009-01-03, 01:36 PM
What do you think? What do you think the specific character classes would/could do (including specialized wizards)?

I disagree that clerics have the least chance to survive. They've plenty of useful spells that can help them out in this situation. Even more if they're clerics with the Trickery or Travel domains. Spells like Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) are on their spell list and are useful enough in other situations to be prepped on a normal adventuring day. Personally, I'd say rangers or fighters are at the most disadvantage in this situation but there's still little chance of the crowd hurting them significantly.

Edit: 10th level is closer to what you want but you need to look at the usual AC for a PC class at the level and remember that level 1 commoners have +0 to hit them. Beyond about 5th level most classes will only be hit by the commoners on a natural 20.

Kyeudo
2009-01-03, 01:39 PM
Alright, to get my point across, what if they were 15th level? or 10th?

Lets go down the list on how they would all surive:

Barbarian: Great Cleave! 14 dead commoners a round minimum, and only because the barbarian only gets one five foot step.

Bard: "Hi, Everyone! Let's be friends!" *Diplomacy check* "What, you want to elect me mayor for life? Wonderful!"

Cleric: *Gates in a Solar* *Sits back and eats popcorn while Solar goes to town*

Druid: *Wildshapes into a T-Rex* "ROARS!" *Proceeds to stomp around town like godzilla eating commoners like candy*

Fighter: *Watches commoners try to hit his AC until he gets bored, then mimics the barbarian*

Monk: *Tumble check* "Na-na-na-na-na-na! You can't catch me!" *Runs away at 45 miles an hour*

Paladin: *Tries to figure out how to get out of this with out violating his paladin oath* *Decides that non-lethal damage would probably work* *Proceeds to spend the next three hours punching commoners in the face*

Ranger: "Sic 'em, Fido" *Carves a five-lane blacktop highway with two lane service road through the middle of the pack.*

Rogue: *Hides in Plain Sight* *Proceeds to sneak attack every commoner one at a time*

Sorcerer: *Casts Shapechange* *Barbeques town as a red dragon*

Wizard: *First commoner attempts to attack* *Wizard's contingency spells go off* "Ah crap, now I have to recast all of those." *picks way through field of corpses*

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 01:49 PM
Cleric: Divine Power + Quickened Righteous Might > Quickened Divine Favor > "Who's smexy now, bitches?" Seriously, a Cleric is better in melee than a Fighter, as it should be (:P). He's going to have no trouble whatsoever smashing a bunch of mooks. Of course, he could also just use a level 9 spell and enjoy the fireworks, but that's probably a bit wasteful for a bunch of losers. He could also just layeth the smackdown. Seriously, if you think Healing is Clerics' main ability, you're playing a different game.

As for Barbarian, remember the reach weapon (say, Spiked Chain). Great Cleave! 24 dead, and 5 more with a 5' step. If he really felt like getting nasty, Enlarge Person-potion and layeth the smackdown! 56 squares, 5' step getting 9 more, he wouldn't take long. Also, he has damage reduction so he isn't actually threatened. Also, if we're talking about an actual Barbarian, he'll have Combat Reflexes which further drops a few.

Mikeavelli
2009-01-03, 01:52 PM
Fighter: And the streets will run red with blood.

Rogue: Runs up the side of a building, hides, disguises self, then bluffs the crowd to make them think whoever was leading the mob is the character. Walks off while the mob tears them apart.

Cleric: Consumptive Field. Who's your daddy now?

Wizard: Celerity, Timestop, teleport back to a wizard tower. Scry the village for the next few years carefully noting the personalities of the villagers, comings and goings of adventurers, and any weaknesses in the village defenses. After careful planning, return to the village with an army of summoned creatures and burn it to the ground.

Sorceror: "Well, we've got a few problems here. First, I can fly, and you can't. Second, I've got so many experience points that all of you put together don't even HALFWAY match me. Third: Meteor Swarm."

Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.

Bard: Pulls out a flute, and begins playing. After enthralling the populace he shouts to them all, "Come, follow me!" Hopping and jumping out into the wilderness, over the hills and through the woods gathering allies as he goes through the Power of Rock and the magic of friendship. Eventually he comes to the Evil Overlord's fortress, and he calls forth an epic battle cry, sending his many commoner allies into battle.

They're quickly slaughtered, and the bard wanders off.

Barbarian: Grabs one of the villagers, and uses him to beat the rest of them to death.

Druid: Turn into a giant Bear. Eat the Villagers. While summoning more giant bears.

Ranger: Get to the highest building in town, and just start sniping. All the while giggling insanely to himself and petting his animal friend, the only friend in the whole world. We don't need them, do we Rex? Nooo, they've been bad villagers, they tried to kill us, well we'll show them, WE'LL SHOW THEM ALL!

Monk: Despite being completely immune to the villagers attacks, thanks to his damage reduction, the monk still finds a way to die.

hamishspence
2009-01-03, 01:56 PM
The Mob template in Cityscape and DMG2 is a way around the invulnerability problem- mob is much more dangerous than individuals.

bibliophile
2009-01-03, 02:02 PM
Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.


First off high Cha + Diplomacy as a class skill means he could probably talk them all out of killing him. If reasoning fails, any sane DM wouldn't cause a paladin to fall from self-defense. And how are they innocents if they are trying to murder him, apparently without provocation?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 02:05 PM
Check the Duration on Airwalk and Overland Flight.

Pretty sure Clerics don't even need to fight.

Go Go Gadget 3rd Dimension!

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 02:07 PM
This is what I was looking for.

Anyways, the reason I think the cleric has the least chance (other than paladins with their lack of options) is because they can fight-but not fight hordes, cast spells-but not as quickly (in general), have social skills-but not focused in them, and have good AC-but not as good as more AC focused classes. A travel cleric has good chances, so does Trickery, but I think the low dex, general lack of Imp Init, and general lack of Quicken Spell is what does them in.

Once again, try to imagine a mob, not individual 1-3 level commoners.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 02:07 PM
Check the Duration on Airwalk and Overland Flight.

Pretty sure Clerics don't even need to fight.

Go Go Gadget 3rd Dimension!

But it's more fun to kill them all. What, are you telling me there are Gods other than Nerull?! Blasphemy! (oh, by the way, I think some commoners just died - way to go)

EDIT: Every Cleric has Quicken Spell. Most also have Divine Metamagic. If they have DMM: Persistent, all their buffs are on all the time. Also, they fight better than Fighters, and can buff their AC skyhigh (see: Monk's Belt). Of course, as Blood_Lord pointed out, they can just stay airborne eternally, but that's not nearly as fun as killing all the noobs. Even the Mob is no threat to a buffed Cleric in combat, let alone if the Cleric uses spells.

The lowest chance of survival? I'd say the Fighter; unless he has Adamantine Full-Plate (as opposed to the Mithril-version), all he's got going on for him are lots of damage and attacks of opportunity.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-03, 02:14 PM
The mob isn't core, but is pretty reasonable, they are assumed to be mass grappling-tripping-disarming- and the like, and should be armed with clubs and daggers, and there should be so many that fatigue and attrition should be a factor.
The Mob template is in DMG-II. It's essentially "Swarms for Larger Creatures", but it's pretty functional. Such a mob will present a threat for a ECL 20 character.

Mikeavelli
2009-01-03, 02:15 PM
First off high Cha + Diplomacy as a class skill means he could probably talk them all out of killing him. If reasoning fails, any sane DM wouldn't cause a paladin to fall from self-defense. And how are they innocents if they are trying to murder him, apparently without provocation?

A lot of those were in-jokes for this very forum.

That one specifically was based on the massive number of "What would make a Paladin fall" threads where the answer was inevitably, "Everything. Paladins will always fall, no matter what they do."

bibliophile
2009-01-03, 02:17 PM
My bad, didn't catch that. Strange considering I've read a few of those threads... :smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine
2009-01-03, 02:20 PM
Anyways, the reason I think the cleric has the least chance (other than paladins with their lack of options) is because they can fight-but not fight hordes, cast spells-but not as quickly (in general), have social skills-but not focused in them, and have good AC-but not as good as more AC focused classes. A travel cleric has good chances, so does Trickery, but I think the low dex, general lack of Imp Init, and general lack of Quicken Spell is what does them in

i think you are misunderstanding something about clerics here, their healing spells and their fighting skills alone are more then enough to beat the mob if it doesnt have that fancy template.
then with buffs and summons it only gets better for the cleric.

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 02:21 PM
"The Mob template is in DMG-II. It's essentially "Swarms for Larger Creatures", but it's pretty functional. Such a mob will present a threat for a ECL 20 character."

Let's just go with that then.

Another_Poet
2009-01-03, 02:22 PM
You guys are forgetting that the character level of the commoners on the street wasn't specified.

100 1st level commoners? Anyone can get out.

100 commoners of random levels, (which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners....) would toast ANY single PC, except maybe wizard/sorcerer.

Bear in mind that commoners can and should level up - presumably by overcoming non-combat challenges like business rivals and the like. Plus, some of the feats they are most likely to take are the ones that boost saves (Iron Will, etc.) or the ones that boost defence (Two-Weapon Defence would be great for a commoner who selected quarterstaff as his single weapon).

Commoners can also wear armour even though they aren't proficient in it. The penalty is applying the armour check penalty to attack rolls, so they can wear light armour and be totally okay.

People underestimate commoners... I blame it on bad DMing. :P

hamishspence
2009-01-03, 02:23 PM
Cityscape mobs are CN: it hints that they may have been driven to a frenzy by magic. Mob is 48 adults, CR 8.

Throng of Children is particularly nasty for more moral players- CR 5, CN, unless you are using nonlethal damage DM might be quite nasty about player slashing them down.

a bigger version is the Orc Horde from Munchkin MM 2.5:

3872 Orcs. Challenge rating 22, but astronomical saves and hit points make the swarm hard to bring down. Organization: Big stonkin' army. :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2009-01-03, 02:34 PM
Ranger: Get to the highest building in town, and just start sniping. All the while giggling insanely to himself and petting his animal friend, the only friend in the whole world. We don't need them, do we Rex? Nooo, they've been bad villagers, they tried to kill us, well we'll show them, WE'LL SHOW THEM ALL!

...Im not the only one who imagines most rangers as antisocial serial killers?

EDIT: Note that my favorite villain of all time, who I kind of want to play as, was a gnome Urban Ranger serial killer. He focused on halfling women. Oh, and he owned the magic item shop that the party used, which really caused hilarity* to ensue when we figured out he was the killer.

*Hilarity being defined as "Giggling, he points a wand at you. Add up the number of magic items he sold you that are on your person right now. You take that many d6s of fire damage."

Collin152
2009-01-03, 02:36 PM
...Im not the only one who imagines most rangers as antisocial serial killers?

Well, the most efficient use of Favored Enemy is to take it on humanoid races, so...

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 02:37 PM
"which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners...."

It would toast any non-caster, yes, but a caster is still not, under any circumstances, actually forced to engage them. And yes, this goes for the Cleric and the Druid too; Cleric can learn Teleportation et al. as Domain-spells (not to mention the few he already knows) and the Druid can just Wildshape into something that flies. And then they could just summon a few Elemental Monoliths/Solars/Planetars/Pit Fiends/whatever to do the dirty job. Or take the tough guys out with walls and Avasculates and Consumptive Fields and what-have-yous, but that's much more taxing than having monsters do the dirty job.

Collin152
2009-01-03, 02:44 PM
Don't forget that one spell- what's it called? Incite Riot?

chiasaur11
2009-01-03, 02:45 PM
"which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners...."

It would toast any non-caster, yes, but a caster is still not, under any circumstances, actually forced to engage them. And yes, this goes for the Cleric and the Druid too; Cleric can learn Teleportation et al. as Domain-spells (not to mention the few he already knows) and the Druid can just Wildshape into something that flies. And then they could just summon a few Elemental Monoliths/Solars/Planetars/Pit Fiends/whatever to do the dirty job. Or take the tough guys out with walls and Avasculates and Consumptive Fields and what-have-yous, but that's much more taxing than having monsters do the dirty job.

Or, as mentioned, the Bard could diplomancer the bunch of them.

lord_khaine
2009-01-03, 02:47 PM
"which means an average of 5 level 20 commoners, 5 level 19 commoners, 5 level 18 commoners...."

It would toast any non-caster, yes, but a caster is still not, under any circumstances, actually forced to engage them. And yes, this goes for the Cleric and the Druid too; Cleric can learn Teleportation et al. as Domain-spells (not to mention the few he already knows) and the Druid can just Wildshape into something that flies. And then they could just summon a few Elemental Monoliths/Solars/Planetars/Pit Fiends/whatever to do the dirty job. Or take the tough guys out with walls and Avasculates and Consumptive Fields and what-have-yous, but that's much more taxing than having monsters do the dirty job.


actualy i think the noncasters still stand a decent chance as well, unless the commoners are actualy geared and build towards fighting highlv pc.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 02:56 PM
Discarding items is a bit silly ... magic items are as essential to the non caster classes as spells are to the caster classes.

lord_khaine
2009-01-03, 03:09 PM
noone is talking about removing magic items, but there is a huge difference betveen commoners who have standard gear for their level, and commoners who have those specific items that allows them to kill highlv npc.

if the commoners was geared toward it then they would kill any pc, even the wizard, simply by using a candle of invocation and summoning a couple of solars and a beholder.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-03, 03:15 PM
2. I give the cleric the least chance to survive, simply because they can't/don't specialize in anything that can help them survive this except healing, which probably wouldn't get to be useful. (also, not cleric bashing, clerics are fine, just probably not in this situation)

1) Divine Power
2) Righteous Might
3) Greater Consumptive Field...

...actually, scratch that. Start with Greater Consumptive Field. Yeah, Cleric is win.

EDIT: Dang, should've read further into the thread...

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 03:16 PM
Except for the Mob Swarm Template, try to stick to core.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 03:21 PM
I guess it needs to be pointed out that every Cleric of level 9 or greater has a 100% chance of escaping in 3 seconds if they actually feel threatened enough to do so.

Plane Shift.

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 03:23 PM
If the Cleric wins initiative, that would take the cake for sure.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 03:26 PM
If the Cleric wins initiative, that would take the cake for sure.

If he loses Init, he can just do it anyways. It's not like it's actually hard to deal with a bunch of commoners.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 03:52 PM
If he loses Init, he can just do it anyways. It's not like it's actually hard to deal with a bunch of commoners.

Also, Cleric qualifies for Contingency through some domains.

Mike_G
2009-01-03, 03:53 PM
I think the problem is that at high levels, low level threats, regardless of number, really have so little chance to effect the PC.

Any melee class has the AC that the commoners only hit on a 20, and enough HP to shrug off a whole lot of those 20's, plus, they almost automatically hit and auto kill.

The casters would be vulnerable under AD&D rules where being hit during casting wasted the spell. If surrounded by a horde of commoners, and the wizard didn't have his spells already up (yes, we know, he always has them up) all of whom would try to attack during casting, the chance of him wasting spells and succumbing to a dozen club strikes is hypothetically possible.

In 3e, it can't really happen if he has Celerity, Contingency spells, Quickened spells, and so on. Even if the eight commoners in contact all ready an action to attack when he starts casting, the chance to hit is so low, and his Concentration should be so high, that it would pretty much require a 20 on the attack and a 1 on the Concentration check for the Wizard to fail to cast. Assuming he was vulnerable in the first place.

This actually bothers me more than the fact that high level PC's can fight a Balor. I'd rather see PC's versus mooks to be like Dawn of the Dead where they can drop lots of bad guys, but if they do get cut off and surrounded, they eventually go down and get their brains eaten.

Now we just see the heap of commoners wiggle like a sack full of angry cat, and then the PC walks out of the pile of corpses whistling.

Flickerdart
2009-01-03, 04:02 PM
And considering that the Commoners are all low CR, the Truenamer finally gets to shine. Speak to the Masses, and they all go down.

FMArthur
2009-01-03, 08:14 PM
Hell, the level barely even matters with certain races in play. Some races get flight, which is basically auto-win, some get fear effects, a changeling can even just walk out of there. Characters with decent DR can just take a nap in the middle of the croud.

theMycon
2009-01-03, 09:39 PM
Fighter: I only took whirlwind attack because I was out of core feats...
Go, enlarged spiked chain! Create a 50' diameter torus of death, with a 20' circle of safety in the middle!

The monk, along with being entirely immune to their attacks (DR10/magic) and actually being pretty good against large groups of weak enemies (for a melee class), would probably just Abundant Step away and then saunter off, knowing his double-move outpaces their run. Or might do the fighter's above trick without the safe circle, because he threatens with an enlarged knee to the groin. But probably not.

The ranger would hole himself up in the book depository and then entangle the entire town, and either pick folk off with his bow or summon hordes of animals to eat the townsfolk.

The paladin... would probably rely on luck in wading out of there without taking too many critical hits. Unless the crowd were considered Chaotic, in which case he could just stack protection from-circle of protection-etc and part the crowd like the red sea.

The barbarian could take his adamantine greataxe to the tallest building around, knock it over, flattening half the peasants, and then wield the building to flatten the other half.

Any other class has enough options to completely control or wipe out the crowd in one round, flawlessly. Or escape unharmed. Or whatever they like.

JaxGaret
2009-01-04, 02:35 AM
Fighter: And the streets will run red with blood.

Rogue: Runs up the side of a building, hides, disguises self, then bluffs the crowd to make them think whoever was leading the mob is the character. Walks off while the mob tears them apart.

Cleric: Consumptive Field. Who's your daddy now?

Wizard: Celerity, Timestop, teleport back to a wizard tower. Scry the village for the next few years carefully noting the personalities of the villagers, comings and goings of adventurers, and any weaknesses in the village defenses. After careful planning, return to the village with an army of summoned creatures and burn it to the ground.

Sorceror: "Well, we've got a few problems here. First, I can fly, and you can't. Second, I've got so many experience points that all of you put together don't even HALFWAY match me. Third: Meteor Swarm."

Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.

Bard: Pulls out a flute, and begins playing. After enthralling the populace he shouts to them all, "Come, follow me!" Hopping and jumping out into the wilderness, over the hills and through the woods gathering allies as he goes through the Power of Rock and the magic of friendship. Eventually he comes to the Evil Overlord's fortress, and he calls forth an epic battle cry, sending his many commoner allies into battle.

They're quickly slaughtered, and the bard wanders off.

Barbarian: Grabs one of the villagers, and uses him to beat the rest of them to death.

Druid: Turn into a giant Bear. Eat the Villagers. While summoning more giant bears.

Ranger: Get to the highest building in town, and just start sniping. All the while giggling insanely to himself and petting his animal friend, the only friend in the whole world. We don't need them, do we Rex? Nooo, they've been bad villagers, they tried to kill us, well we'll show them, WE'LL SHOW THEM ALL!

Monk: Despite being completely immune to the villagers attacks, thanks to his damage reduction, the monk still finds a way to die.

I lol'ed. Hard, dude.

Thanks for that *wipes a tear from mine eye*.

TempusCCK
2009-01-04, 03:46 AM
It won't be 8 commoners pressed around the character though, it'll be about a dozen, and they'll all be taking penalties via the Squeezing through spaces rule, and they'll all be making touch attacks to grapple, keeping the characters from casting spells and/or attacking, and the people behind will be Aiding Another to the people in the front... Meaning the cleric is effectively screwed, they can't cast any spells with somatic components while grappled unless they win a grapple check, which they probably won't against all the people against them...

Fan
2009-01-04, 03:49 AM
It won't be 8 commoners pressed around the character though, it'll be about a dozen, and they'll all be taking penalties via the Squeezing through spaces rule, and they'll all be making touch attacks to grapple, keeping the characters from casting spells and/or attacking, and the people behind will be Aiding Another to the people in the front... Meaning the cleric is effectively screwed, they can't cast any spells with somatic components while grappled unless they win a grapple check, which they probably won't against all the people against them...

Your forgetting by coming close to him in a act of violence they activated his 7 contingicies, and now have 7 balors making the town their temporary skull throne while screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"

lord_khaine
2009-01-04, 04:54 AM
It won't be 8 commoners pressed around the character though, it'll be about a dozen, and they'll all be taking penalties via the Squeezing through spaces rule, and they'll all be making touch attacks to grapple, keeping the characters from casting spells and/or attacking, and the people behind will be Aiding Another to the people in the front... Meaning the cleric is effectively screwed, they can't cast any spells with somatic components while grappled unless they win a grapple check, which they probably won't against all the people against them...


the people behind cant use the Aid another option when they isnt themself in a position to make a attack on the cleric.
so the people wont be able to grapple the cleric, and he will happily slaughter them all, even without contingencys.

TempusCCK
2009-01-04, 04:55 AM
Using the squeezing rules, technically they are within attack range, though at a penalty.

Flickerdart
2009-01-04, 12:00 PM
Using the squeezing rules, technically they are within attack range, though at a penalty.
Except those penalties will probably overtake the bonuses. And besides, Aid Another isn't automatic, you can still fail it. Which commoners most likely will.

Sebastian
2009-01-04, 12:12 PM
Paladin: Could kill them all, but chooses not to because the peasants are innocents, and he tries to get away without violence. He willingly allows himself to be killed once that fails. He falls anyways, because he allowed innocents to commit an evil act.


OR, he could just summon his paladin mount, that at 20th level either is a flying one or have some mean of fly anyway and fly away.

A 20th level character don't even have to fight them, most of the classes would have a means to escape and even those who don't could easily afford an item to do the same.

hamishspence
2009-01-04, 01:20 PM
Giving the Hero a reason to stay and fight helps- the commoners are rampaging toward something that Must Not Be Destroyed and can't be moved either.

Flickerdart
2009-01-04, 01:22 PM
Giving the Hero a reason to stay and fight helps- the commoners are rampaging toward something that Must Not Be Destroyed and can't be moved either.
Great Cleave. Wall of Force. Diplomancy. Any number of Illusion spells. Consumptive Field.

Most plans already involved butchering the crowd.

hamishspence
2009-01-04, 01:29 PM
Problem is- Great Cleave isn't any help against crowds represented as Swarms.

The Swarm also tends to have higher saves than individual commoners.

Taken to its logical extreme in the Munchkin Orc Horde rules- ridiculously high saves.

Pie Guy
2009-01-04, 01:30 PM
You know, fire would just kill all the commoners almost instantly.

TempusCCK
2009-01-04, 01:35 PM
How many Housecats could you summon with Summon Monster IX?

Flickerdart
2009-01-04, 01:43 PM
How many Housecats could you summon with Summon Monster IX?
1d4+1, unfortunately, for any list lower than Summon Monster VII. Oddly enough, neither Summon Monster or Nature's Ally has cats on their lists. Cats are CR1/4, and Badgers summoned by Summon Monster I are 1/2, so reasonably it would let you summon two cats.

Vexxation
2009-01-04, 01:48 PM
1d4+1, unfortunately, for any list lower than Summon Monster VII. Oddly enough, neither Summon Monster or Nature's Ally has cats on their lists. Cats are CR1/4, and Badgers summoned by Summon Monster I are 1/2, so reasonably it would let you summon two cats.

Well, if we base it off HD...

Summon Monster IX allows you to summon an Elder Elemental, all of which are 24 HD. So 96 cats. Mwahahaha! Storm of Kitties!

imperialspectre
2009-01-04, 01:51 PM
It won't be 8 commoners pressed around the character though, it'll be about a dozen, and they'll all be taking penalties via the Squeezing through spaces rule, and they'll all be making touch attacks to grapple, keeping the characters from casting spells and/or attacking, and the people behind will be Aiding Another to the people in the front... Meaning the cleric is effectively screwed, they can't cast any spells with somatic components while grappled unless they win a grapple check, which they probably won't against all the people against them...

Freedom of Movement. Alternatively, Blasphemy, which has no somatic component.

Narmoth
2009-01-04, 02:27 PM
All you need is decent AC, something +20 something, like a full plate + shield, so they only hit you on a natural 20. Then you have, if I remember correctly, no more than 8 persons able to stand around you. For easier math, let's say 10 people. They will then hit you once every 2nd turn. You could push them away with your hands and walk through the crowd. Of course, you would need a certain amount of healing or hit points, but even a decent regen-ring would keep a low level character alive

Flickerdart
2009-01-04, 02:39 PM
Hm...we could add the necessary chalenge by making these Half-Clay Golem Lernean Fire Giant mobs. Ikea Tarrasque go!

Arachu
2009-01-04, 05:07 PM
I have an idea. I'll say what the evil guys would do. :belkar:

Evil Barbarian: Er... Yeah, Great Cleave... Meh, I Rage, Great Cleave...

Evil Bard: "WE MUST RISE AGAINST THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!"
Crowd: "YAY!!!"

Evil Cleric: Mass Inflict Serious Wounds. Deathwatch. Inflict Minor Wounds.
Rinse and repeat.

Evil Druid: "I turn into a Dire Tiger and summon my Dire Tiger companion."

Evil Druid 15/ Wizard 5: Force Wall, followed by Creating enough water to fill the new box, Wild Shape into a Dire Shark :sabine:

Evil Fighter: Er... Yeah, Great Cleave... Meh, I Power Attack, Great Cleave...

Evil Monk: Snaps all of their necks when he's done wondering how there's an evil monk in the world :smallconfused:

Blackguard: Smite Good! Blackguard Mount Red Dragon!
... Wait, can you ride a dragon? Yeah, sure, let's say you can :smallamused:

Evil Ranger with two-weapon combat: "DIE, DIE, DIE!!!"
''with ranged: "Ah, hell... Die. Die..."

Evil Rogue: Two kinds of flask. Poison... And Acid.

Evil Sorcerer: FireballFireballFireballFireballFIREBALLFIREBALLFI REBALL

Evil Conjurer with no Divination: Blows up all the nearby ones, summons like five demons, and watches the fireworks

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 05:29 PM
Evil Cleric: Mass Inflict Serious Wounds. Deathwatch. Inflict Minor Wounds.
Rinse and repeat.

Whatever happened to the Divine Reached Animate Dead animating all the commoners you just killed to kill the rest?