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Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:04 AM
I honestly don't see any in the 3.5 PHB that strike me as being mainly for a bard, I was just wondering if anyone could throw me some suggestions?

Townopolis
2009-01-04, 03:06 AM
All bard feats are in other book. Bards are one of the core classes that suffer the most in a core-only game.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:08 AM
All bard feats are in other book. Bards are one of the core classes that suffer the most in a core-only game.

CRAP....I'm still kicking myself in the butt for not buying a rogue/bard 3.0 src book, it was like $3 and we got all the others.....why?!?!!?!

herrhauptmann
2009-01-04, 03:17 AM
Because song and silence didn't have much in teh way of prestige classes for specifically for Bards.
While the mundane equipment was useful for everybody, except the 20 different musical instruments. Clothes that give a bonus to disguise, shoes that give a bonus to move silent, gear for extra bonus to swim or climb. I'll take that, thank you very much.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:17 AM
For those of you who haven't heard of these books, they are 3.0 and the one that I personally have (others were bought and are currently owned by others in m gaming group) is called sword and fist, and helps optimize monks and fighters, has new weapons, has prestige classes (I ended up making a Warmaster out of it, epic), stuff like that.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:20 AM
Because song and silence didn't have much in teh way of prestige classes for specifically for Bards.
While the mundane equipment was useful for everybody, except the 20 different musical instruments. Clothes that give a bonus to disguise, shoes that give a bonus to move silent, gear for extra bonus to swim or climb. I'll take that, thank you very much.

Just saying that I didn't actually look through the Bard/Rogue book, I was playing my Fighter/Warmaster at the time, and only bought that one...anyway, if any 3.5 PHB feats I may have overlooked would help a bard, please do tell.

Kizara
2009-01-04, 03:41 AM
Google "Complete Adventurer".

See where that gets you. I'm sure you can find it cheap on ebay or something.

The feat index I used to have no-longer works/is available, or I'd link you to that.


As for core-only bard feats:

Improved Trip (to use with whip proficency) at a 15ft reach, this is at least an interesting combat option.

Skill Focus (perform).

Improved Initiative. Hey its good for everyone.

Leadership. Put that Charisma and people-friendly nature to good use!

Weapon Finesse. I mean, you will never actually be good at melee, but depending on your stats this might work for you. I guess.

Hey that's 5, more then I expected to find.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:45 AM
Thanks Kizara, I actually hadn't thought of getting Leaderhip, and thats a really good idea, I had fun with my lackies as a Warmaster, I can only imagine that essentially playing the pied piper will be just as much fun.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:50 AM
figure out what kind of bard you want to play, and look at Crystal Keep's feat index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) for the tools to achieve that.

I'm slightly confused on what types of bards there are, I think what I want is called "Face." That's where I'm charisma based, using skills like bluff and such right? At level one I managed to convince an elven slave trader that I was the ambassador to the Gnome kingdom, in order to get a meeting with him.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 03:59 AM
I now have a new question, I have taken Combat Expertise, the precurser for both Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip. However, I can only have one of these at level 3, and at 6 I intend to get Leadership. I was hoping someone could tell me which would be more helpful, putting my opponents on their backs, or taking away their weapons?

Grail
2009-01-04, 03:59 AM
For their feet, I suggest some Blue Suede Shoes.
:smallconfused:

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 04:23 AM
For their feet, I suggest some Blue Suede Shoes.
:smallconfused:

Somewhat poor tast I must say, unless you really do have that much trouble spelling. Incidentally, I actually do have a nice pair of Blue Suede Shoes.

thegurullamen
2009-01-04, 04:34 AM
You must trip with the whip!

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 04:36 AM
You must trip with the whip!

Ok, if I remember that until I hit lvl 3, I'll take trip...also in the next town I should probably buy a whip and start using it to get used to it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-04, 04:38 AM
The good feats for bards are in Dragon Magic, Complete Mage, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Arcane, etc. The 3.0 splatbooks didn't really have much to offer a bard, and neither does the PHB. Here's a guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766) that contains some useful tips, including feat selection.

thegurullamen
2009-01-04, 04:39 AM
Talk with your DM and see if you can't talk him into making the whip less sucky. Let it do some real damage for one thing, even to armored foes.

Townopolis
2009-01-04, 04:40 AM
Pretty much every bard is a face. When I build a bard, I usually take perform (duh), diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, and gather information, just to cover that aspect, then do whatever with the remaining skill points. Use Magic Device is a favorite, spellcraft is useful, and the knowledge skills help emphasize the loremaster aspect that many bards have. Knowledge: History, in particular, boosts bardic knowledge.

In addition to being a face, a bard will usually try to fill one of the following: Blaster (Cmage is a must, Lyric Thaumaturge is your PRC), Buffbot, 5-minute Fill-in, Battle Bard, and Utility Caster.

Complete Adventurer has a lot for a bard. I'd also recommend Complete Mage. With those 2 books, you'll have a good smattering of bard feats to choose from.

If you want to play a blaster, get Cmage, take the Lyric Thaumaturge prestige class as soon as possible, and focus on spells with the sonic descriptor. Spells with large areas of effect are especially nice I understand.

If you want to go for a buffbot, focus your spellcasting on that. Haste is awesome. All bards should learn haste. In addition, you'll want to buff your inspire courage ability as high as possible. Books to look into are Spell Compendium (inspirational boost), Magic Item Compendium (Badge of Valor), DMG2 (Vest of Legends), Player's Guide to Eberron (Song of the Heart), and Book of Exalted Deeds (Words of Creation). Notice that each of these books basically has one feat/spell/item to offer. If you don't have an ungodly amount of cash to dish out on these, I'd prioritize as follows: Eberron, SC, MiC, DMG2, BoED. Because the vest isn't as important, and the Words of Creation feat is likely to be banned anyway.

Battle Bards will want Frostburn for Snowflake Wardance, and Dragon Magic for the Dragonfire Inspiration line. You'll be wielding dual longswords or scimitars. You might also want the Mic (it's a great book, you just want it period, really.) for Crystal Echoblades. Grab 2 of those, get Snowflake Wardance at around 6, and work on Two-Weapon Fighting feats (I recommed just taking the first 2) and the Dragonfire Inspiration line. Get good armor and other defensive items, and spend whatever remains of your resources on boosting your inspire courage (see buffbot). Focus your spell selection on self-defense and ways to make it easier for you to hit people (but if you have SC, devote all 1st level slots to inspirational boost).

A utility mage bard will want to go into the Sublime Chord prestige class from... Complete Arcane, I think. Once you get the PrC, you're basically building the bard like a sorcerer.

The 5-Minute Fill-in is odd. Basically, the point is the be able to replace every member of your party for one encounter. Combat Expertise is nice for tanking. Melodic Casting (Cmage) is good if you need to wizard it up. Take a few feats for each role, focusing on ones that allow you to do extra-well for a short time, rather than smaller boosts that last all day. You'll also rely heavily on your spells. Self-defense spells in case you need to be the fighter, Improvisation (not sure which book, but probably in the SC) is an absolute gem for this type of bard. Finally, learn all the cure spells (in case you need to heal the cleric) and learn one spell of every level that can be used for magical troubleshooting. When playing this type of bard, don't be shy about using most or all of your spells when your filling in for someone else. When not filling in, you may want to sit back, sing, and take potshots at your enemies with a shortbow. (Eventually you'll get a hang of how hot to burn when you're filling in, and how much of your resources you can afford to spend when you're not.)

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 04:42 AM
Talk with your DM and see if you can't talk him into making the whip less sucky. Let it do some real damage for one thing, even to armored foes.

Yeah, I've been reading what's in the book on the whip, and I will need to negotiate that out, or get an exception for later on that will allow me to have quickdraw on the whip or something.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 04:47 AM
Thanks lordsmooth, I think I'm going for Buffbot, and just useful spells too, like I'm the token Arcane Spellcaster in the party, so I have Identify.

Eldran
2009-01-04, 04:59 AM
I would also like to point out "Knowlegde Devotion" (Complete Champion) as the feat of choice for every Bard who might find himself on the frontlines (or holding a bow) from time to time). It offers a great boost for attack and damage and synchronizes well with the bard's knowledge skills (which should be maxed out in this case).
Depending on your DM the feat might even work together with the skill trick "collector of stories".

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 05:07 AM
I would also like to point out "Knowlegde Devotion" (Complete Champion) as the feat of choice for every Bard who might find himself on the frontlines (or holding a bow) from time to time). It offers a great boost for attack and damage and synchronizes well with the bard's knowledge skills (which should be maxed out in this case).
Depending on your DM the feat might even work together with the skill trick "collector of stories".

Thanks, I'll look into that! =P

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 09:32 AM
since most of the important ones are covered, I will bring up some other options on battle bards.

if you think in higher level play you will be in melee often enough, complete mage offers clap of thunder, is a reserve feat requirs 3rd lvel spells but if ou can have an open spell slot of a level you have a sonic spell in, you have a sonic damage touch attack 1/6 per spell level bards can get this to 6d6 with core spells. 1 feat and a good plan b when adversaries get too big to trip.

Wafflecart
2009-01-04, 01:36 PM
Thanks, I hadn't actually thought of what to do once things got above medium creatures (can only trip things one size category larger than self).

Noneoyabizzness
2009-01-04, 01:57 PM
no prob was in a three man party with a warmage and a cleric. by the time was about level 12 went into warrior skald (races of faerun) with a level of spellsword to get shields with no spell fail if needed to cast my weak spells in battle. only had 1 4th level spell (shout), but when you can put away your weapon and just hit 4d6 a round, let the caster and blaster do the important spellwork.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-04, 02:53 PM
Try a metamagic feat or general combat feat: dodge, combat reflexes. You could also take skill focus perform. Maybe look at Complete Scoundrel or Song and Silence. This is all the help I can really give. I've never played a bard, and warriors are my specialty.

Hal
2009-01-04, 03:44 PM
Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane) is very good for Bards. Because of the high number of skill points you have to throw around, your familiar will be quite skillful as well. They can always do Aid Another rolls, which can be helpful, if nothing else. If you're a dancer, take a monkey. If you're a singer, take a song bird.

I'll second Complete Adventurer for a number of good Bard feats. PHB2 is good for Devoted Performer (Bardadins are great).

It's not a feat, but Complete Champion has the ACF Hymn of Fortification, a Bardic Music ability that replaces Inspire Competence, and duplicates the Protection from Evil spell. Can be useful, depending on what you're up to in your campaign.

Mark Hall
2009-01-04, 06:10 PM
*Spell Focus: Enchantment or Illusion are useful for a bard.

*For a bit different bard, you might go with SF: Conjuration and Augment Summoning (given that you're a buffer, it's not a bad option as time goes on. Summon creatures, buff them, let them fight for you).

*Combat Expertise and Improved Trip or Improved Disarm. You can disarm with a whip, avoiding the attack of opportunity in the first place, but the +4 to do so doesn't suck if you want to make it a tactic.

*Improved Counterspell. While not considered an optimal use of actions, this feat allows you to counterspell a wider variety of spells, and thus protect your party.

*Leadership, as mentioned, plays to a bard's strengths: You do best with a large number of people to benefit from your abilities, and you have a good charisma.

*Magical Aptitude. Others may scoff at a +2 to skills feat, but for a bard with Improved Counterspell, who is frequently trying to cover two or more roles in a party, the +2 to those two skills will really help out.

*The Point Blank Shot tree. As a bard, you don't want to melee unless you're forced to. The PBS tree lets you play the archer, and is necessary if you want the dubious benefit of being an Arcane Archer.

*Quick Draw. It seems silly, but if you're an instrument-using bard, the ability to switch at will between weapons and instrument is not a bad benefit. Play your instrument until attacked, and then be armed, because you can do so instantly.

*Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus. Your strength is unlikely to be high, given the uses you have for Dexterity; Weapon Finesse helps this. Weapon Focus is often scoffed at, but a +1 to hit brings you equal with the +1 BAB classes until level 5, and also opens the dubious distinction of Arcane Archer to you.

*Item creation, especially Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll, and Craft Wondrous Items. For the first two, you don't have so many spells per day that you can really turn your nose up at more. For the third, remember that you can retrain spells as they become useless, but you wouldn't lose an item created from one. This allows you to create some useful items at low levels, and untrain the spell at higher levels (especially useful if you're creating a higher level character, and don't have to suffer these spells in-play, but can provide a reason why you created them).

*Still spell. Not hugely useful, but some people like being able to cast without having a hand free.

Egiam
2009-01-04, 10:57 PM
If you ever have access to the Eberron campaign setting, Song of the heart is awesome.

Complete adventurer rocks for bards.

Complete Scoundrel has one or two spells/feats that I think should be core.