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Godskook
2009-01-04, 03:32 PM
I've heard at least 3 separate people assert on these boards that it is against erfworld 'rules' for the enemies of GK to move from the Airspace to the courtyard. I know I've asked for a source thrice. I've not heard anyone come up with an answer of any kind. Klog 13 is silent on this issue. The only restriction it explicitly says about the airspace is that it "can't attack dungeon". So, can someone explain to me where this is coming from, or stop accusing the Author of foul play because of it?

Now, this is not meant to get the Author involved. I'm not asking what the rules actually are, I'm only discussing the rules actually presented to us. I also understand that technically, Wanda didn't fall into the courtyard, but that is equally not on this topic.

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-04, 03:58 PM
Its the "tower borders airspace, tunnels border dungeon, courtyard borders outer walls" part.
While it isn't iron-clad, its pretty strong.

DevilDan
2009-01-04, 04:02 PM
From Klog 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html):

Garrison zone has three parts: Tower, Courtyard and Dungeon. For purposes of attack, tower borders airspace, courtyard borders outer walls, dungeon borders tunnels. Enemy units assaulting from the outer walls must attack courtyard first, airspace can't attack dungeon, etc.

One can interpret this as suggesting that one cannot attack the courtyard from the tunnels as they border the dungeon and that one cannot attack the courtyard from the air without first going to the tunnel. Why remark that once one is in one part of the garrison one can reach any other part if one can already reach the courtyard from airspace? Sure, it's not specified, but it could be argued that this is the case and it stands my own "sounds reasonable" test.

Personally, I don't think Wanda is in the Courtyard. I think that when she feel she was still in the ground. And there's no rule, obviously, that say that one cannot move from outer walls to airspace.

(I apologize if 'm being dense here.)

Eraniverse
2009-01-04, 06:21 PM
I drew pictures for those who still don't get it:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/Rixic/GarrisonClose.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/Rixic/GKmap.jpg

Spoilered for frame safety :P

Lamech
2009-01-04, 07:01 PM
Thats a heck of a lot better than the picture I "drew"...

SteveMB
2009-01-04, 07:40 PM
There are three different situations:

1. Parson's forces are in their own city. They can move from zone to zone without expending Move (which is a good thing, since they don't have any while off-turn).

2. Ansom is in a non-allied city, on his own turn. He has Move to expend as needed (within the limit of his total Move, of course).

3. The Archons are in a non-allied city, and are off-turn. They're stuck in whatever zone they're occupying at the moment.

Kaolix
2009-01-04, 08:57 PM
Thank you, Eraniverse, for putting down in crude paint what people just don't seem to be understanding through words.
That is exactly how I read the situation, and I just don't get why its causing such a fuss.

There is also the point that the fact that the Archons can't enter the outer walls means it costs move (at least to enemy units) to move between the outer areas (Airspace, Tunnels, and Outer walls) too, but then that makes sense anyhow and shouldn't really confuse.
(We've also just seen that Dirtamancers and maybe other diggers can move between tunnels and outer walls, which (slightly) mirrors the fact that obviously only fliers can move between outer walls and airspace, although more than just diggers are able to enter the tunnels which is where the mirroring ends)

EDIT: P.S. I love the attention to detail with the little bits of greenery on the inner walls :D

K2
2009-01-04, 11:19 PM
your art made my day

Eraniverse
2009-01-05, 12:12 AM
:smallbiggrin: I'm flattered, but the "art" wasn't really intended to answer the thread. Merely supplementary to the discussion.

I'm of the opinion that airspace can't attack courtyard due to some function of the tower. Either magic or merely the mechanical advantage of being able to drop stuff on targets hemmed in by walls.

But that's just the logic behind neatly parallel game mechanics. Upper, middle, and lower battlefields feed into upper, middle, and lower defenses with movement type restrictions governing the ability to mutually reinforce.

Just my two smuckers.

K2
2009-01-05, 12:14 AM
I thought that it was just the way that Erf worked

DevilDan
2009-01-05, 01:00 AM
There's also the fact that each area has "different rules of engagement." That's a whole big enough to fit a lot of disparities, irregularities, and plotamancy.

Kreistor
2009-01-05, 03:07 AM
There are three different situations:

1. Parson's forces are in their own city. They can move from zone to zone without expending Move (which is a good thing, since they don't have any while off-turn).

2. Ansom is in a non-allied city, on his own turn. He has Move to expend as needed (within the limit of his total Move, of course).

3. The Archons are in a non-allied city, and are off-turn. They're stuck in whatever zone they're occupying at the moment.

If that were true, then Stanley should have been able to bypass Jillian while veiled. Ansom somehow got to Courtyard while ignoring masses of uncroaked arrayed on Outer Walls.

SteveMB
2009-01-05, 05:26 AM
If that were true, then Stanley should have been able to bypass Jillian while veiled. Ansom somehow got to Courtyard while ignoring masses of uncroaked arrayed on Outer Walls.

I missed where Stanley fought Jillian in a city, and where Ansom crossed the square walls of the Courtyard.

Eraniverse
2009-01-05, 09:44 AM
Ansom somehow got to Courtyard while ignoring masses of uncroaked arrayed on Outer Walls.

Seriously?

Why did I even bother with the diagrams? :smallfrown:

Simanos
2009-01-05, 10:08 AM
1. Parson's forces are in their own city. They can move from zone to zone without expending Move (which is a good thing, since they don't have any while off-turn).
But how fast can they move? That is a big question. Parson once said that it took him 4 hours to climb the stairs from dungeon to tower. I hope he was mildly joking. From what we've seen fliers from the garrison can go to the outer walls pretty fast, but have to pass through airspace. If they choose to walk, they will probably take a lot longer. Dirtamancers and Golems (diggers and earth elementals?) can go from underground pretty fast too. I still don't understand why the area behind the walls where the breach is happening is not protected by a few troops at least. They would have instantly gotten the Arkenpliers too that way. And Sizemore could be repairing the walls from there.

PS: I too was confused about the courtyard thing because I hadn't noticed the small square walls behind the big circular walls. Can we stop arguing about that please? Wanda did not fall in the courtyard. The writers said the outer walls are 1 zone, but the have many sections.

Ben
2009-01-05, 11:24 AM
Don't forget, Ansom was already on the outer walls. And we know from Vinnie's plans to escape the dwagon trap that you can go through a hex without killing everything in it (presumably, you have to engage them for some amount of time/combat rounds/whatever, but that doesn't seem to have bothered Ansom).

So even if the pliers did fall in the courtyard (which doesn't appear to be the case; there's a lot of city between the walls and the garrison), Ansom could have gone there, by the mechanics we understand so far.

Simanos
2009-01-05, 07:28 PM
So even if the pliers did fall in the courtyard (which doesn't appear to be the case; there's a lot of city between the walls and the garrison), Ansom could have gone there, by the mechanics we understand so far.
No, that's wrong. City zones can't be bypassed like guarded Hexes. Ansom can't go to the courtyard by the rules. And though I thought it was the courtyard initially that Wanda fell into I now understand that it obviously isn't. But the other thing you said is just wrong and unnecessary.

Kreistor
2009-01-05, 09:22 PM
Seriously?

Why did I even bother with the diagrams? :smallfrown:

Not a mindreader. If you don't agree, please explain what you think I got wrong.


I missed where Stanley fought Jillian in a city, and where Ansom crossed the square walls of the Courtyard.

"In a city"? No, in a zone in a city. We know more about what is permitted in a city than on an open field.

Regardless, my point remains even if there are no zone issues. Assume for the moment that Outer Walls extends somewhat onto ground level, and Wanda fell into that part of Outer Walls. The only way Stanley could realistically be forced back to GK is if by failing to defeat the reinforcements that fought him, he was forced to either retreat or hide in the hex. If he was allowed by Erfworld Rules to go forward past Jillian while she could not impede him, then he would have, because he clearly wanted to proceed to Faq, or at least away from GK and the forces arrayed against him. Ansom, in order to avoid the reinforcement uncroaked takes to the air and disengages from the reinforcements. So why is he allowed to progress forward? He failed to defeat the reinforcements, so if he is allowed to move forward because the reinforcements could not impede him, how is that different from Stanley, who was theoretically able to fly around the reinforcements because he was effectively invisible and the reinforcements could not impede him?

Either there is some hair-splitting going on here, or a rule is being violated by someone. (I suspect Ansom. Turning back Stanley was a plot point. Ansom failing to finish off Wanda was character development. In the end, no rule was violated, only a rule potentially could have been violated.)

DevilDan
2009-01-05, 10:21 PM
The only way Stanley could realistically be forced back to GK is if by failing to defeat the reinforcements that fought him, he was forced to either retreat or hide in the hex. If he was allowed by Erfworld Rules to go forward past Jillian while she could not impede him, then he would have, because he clearly wanted to proceed to Faq, or at least away from GK and the forces arrayed against him.

Firstly, it is strongly suggested by his cry of "We're punching through" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0122.html) that Stanley expected to be able to pass through without eliminating all resistance. I'm not certain whether you're arguing otherwise, but I wanted to bring that up.

Later, Stanley expresses surprise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html) when it is pointed out that he is not flying west, back to GK. Assuming that he is familiar with the rules, this suggests that it was possible for him to have moved in a different direction, possibly even through the hex and towards Faq. If losing or retreating meant that he inevitably had to go back to the hex he came from, why would he be surprised?

In any case, many have suggested, given Jack's prodding of Stanley, that Jack used foolamancy to get Stanley to return to GK, as Parson asked.

quindraco
2009-01-06, 12:59 AM
In this comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0134.html

We see clearly that Ansom is in the "Outer Walls" zone (seeing as he's literally standing on them) while the Archons are in Airspace. Presumably, Ansom's carpet is in Airspace as well, since he was up there to touch the Archon's button, as well as lose a fight with Wanda, plus he fell from it to the Walls.

At the end of the comic, he asks the Archons to fetch him his carpet. They presumably do so, because here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0135.html

We see Ansom on his ride, swooping down.

How is this any kind of possible? The Archons can't enter the Outer Walls, where Ansom is. Ansom (presumably) has move to spend, but since he can't fly on his own, I seriously doubt he can enter Airspace.

Fjolnir
2009-01-06, 01:21 AM
notes and other objects can be passed between hexes, I doubt that the same rules can't be applied to dropping an item from airspace to outer walls, it's already a known and mentioned exception to the rule

Kreistor
2009-01-06, 01:29 AM
In any case, many have suggested, given Jack's prodding of Stanley, that Jack used foolamancy to get Stanley to return to GK, as Parson asked.

Except that Stanley isn't angry, or confused. He is unsure how his specific direction is due East, but he's not surprised that he is not West, where he wanted to be. That means he was trying to flee. "You saved our lives. You get a pass." further reinforces that Stanley was expecting to die.

Once invisible, he had the option of going around Jillian and into the west. If this were possible, wouldn't Jillian have been looking in that direction to find him? Instead she spots his bat veil moving due east, the opposite direction he should be going, and where they would be most concerned if he did go. Stanley fleeing back to GK just means he dies a little later than now, since it's back into the frying pan. (The tunnels haven't happened yet.) To the West he dies much later, or never, if he just keeps flying and goes barbarian.

Jack may have manipulated the specific direction, but he did not change Stanley's mind from "Get to Faq" to "Go the wrong direction". He manipulated it from "Flee" to "Flee towards GK".

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 01:36 AM
We see Ansom on his ride, swooping down.

How is this any kind of possible? The Archons can't enter the Outer Walls, where Ansom is. Ansom (presumably) has move to spend, but since he can't fly on his own, I seriously doubt he can enter Airspace.

Well, it depends on whether the carpet could have floated up to the airspace (as a "mount," it could have crossed areas using up "moves" even if a regular inanimate object could not normally do so).

If it did, the archons could just give it a push towards Charlie, I suppose. We don't know the characteristics of a magic item that is motile, so perhaps they just slipped it into "drive" and aimed it at him?

SeraphRainy
2009-01-06, 02:35 AM
If that were true, then Stanley should have been able to bypass Jillian while veiled. Ansom somehow got to Courtyard while ignoring masses of uncroaked arrayed on Outer Walls.

Kreistor your usual post seem to make some large amounts of sense but lately on the topics of passing through hexes youve been a little dense.

All this talk of being able to pass through a contested hex could be wrong. Were punching through could have meant something to the effect of were gonna kick his BOOP.

----

Jack was asked by Parson to get back to GK and when they were vieled he obviously redirected stanley back and then told him that they realy shouldnt have left.

----

Regardless of that Erfworld uses flyers like advanced cavalry. Dwagons with warrlords are able to selectivly engage targets and ansome is a flying warlord when he passes into the lower outer wall zone. He can simply choose to not engage any units there. This is only true because GK does not/cannot field any AIR units in the hex or zone that he occupies to try to counter his aerial manuvers. For instance the WAF was sent out to engage ansome precisly because he was selectivly engaging ground units and he would not have been able to selectivly engage them.

So even if GK had packed to the brim the lower outer wall section and the courtyard section he could have selected to not engage any unit other than wanda until sizemore joined her stack when it became a loosing proposition. Because he being a flying unit did not need to engage every ground unit. THEREFORE IT IS ENTIRLY POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO HAVE GONE STRAIGHT TO THE COURTYARD BECAUSE WE DON"T KNOW THAT THE AUTHORS HAVE STIPULAITED THAT AIR UNITS MUST FOLLOW THE STRICT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT GROUND UNITS DO FOR CITY COMBAT. FURTHERMORE THE PLIERS FELL RIGHT NEXT TO THE BOOPING WALL AND HE WAS ALREADY IN THE WALL ZONE.

---

Now stanley fleeing from the interception force is completely logical also like the cavallry. It was mentioned that they had a chance to spot his viel should he have one with as many eyes as they had. So Stanley flying further in the direction of the enemy troops would have not only isolaited him from his remaining dwagons but put him and his vieled self closer to that many watching people. If spotted they could then engage him as they tried to do when he did leave the hex. And they would have been right next to him then.

(What I mean by this talk of cavalry is that while air uunits can selectivly engage ground units freely given the choice, air units must outmanuver each other like two squads of oppositng mounted warriors or airplanes. They can buzz normal groundpouders with little resistance but still have to chase each other around the battle field.)

----

In conclusion, the art mans point is that his art just explained why they never got anywere near the courtyard. So all my arguments are just my frustraition at yawhos. And its not as simple as Stanley disengaging because if he were spotted the other side could re-engage.

----

For those of you who think that Ansome should not have been able to read/touch/accept the contract or recieve his carpet there is a still more simple explaniation. The air zone ends as soon as you touch the ground and the ground zone ends as soon as you leave the ground. (Provided the ability to fly exists in the unit leaving the ground.) And it has been shown and told to us that certain objects can move between hexes or zones, arrows reports ect. So an archon could hover just above the ground or out of reach and present a magical screen contract and a ground unit could lean out to press I accept.(Plus it is a magic contract it may be you know magical.) Then we dony know the exact rules of what type of item the carpet is. But honestly if the archons hauled it to the edge of the airspace, would it realy be that big of a leap of imaginaition for Ansome to just jump up and catch hold of it. Realy physicaly cut erfworld some slack.

----

My final take on all this, is as to why the area behind the outer wall isnt filled and why the courtyard might not be packed. Well the majority of Parsons units were used in the tunnel battle and while that was a rout you have to assume that they were at least wounded due to the odds faced. And with the threat of the archons loming above Parson would have likely pulled most of his units back into the garison exept for the uncroaked who were on the walls. And sure he could have packed the remaining space with those used or wounded units or just put them in the garison, but consider. Parson expected the RCC forces to have no way through his walls with the uncroaked there. (No gap =no breach=no troops pouring into the city.) and his wounded units could be used to repel the breachers but they have many more fresher troops to rotait through that breach, the breach would keep growing and those two things combined would crush parsons already wounded forces if they tried to defend the theoretical and unlikely breach this turn.

They would be more effective if healed and then used in parsons chokepoint scheme as outlined in the clog for the dungeons. But then why wouldnt he just leave them in the garrison to heal perhaps the courtyard, tower or if he was adacious put them behind the walls because the breach was so unlikely. Well simply put to avoid another fiasco like what happened to the stacks of dwagons over the lake. Even a small force of full strength could decimaite large amounts of units that would be gone from the fight rather than heal next turn. Forces such as Ansome and any suprise fliers comming over the wall like he did or a backstabbing charlie taking the oportunity to croak the majority of parsons able bodied and good powered troops. Were thence can flyers definitly not reach?

Thats right my boy the tunnels or dungeon we have a winner. (that is not the walls or courtyard.)

edit*

Radar
2009-01-06, 05:57 AM
@Kreistor
Let's not forget about Vinnie's plan of escaping The Donut of Doom - it was exactly flying through a hex full of dwagons without winning the fight an exiting the said hex on the other side. Thus it is possible by the rules, to flee a fight in any direction you see fit. What sort of proof is still needed here?

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 11:29 AM
Except that Stanley isn't angry, or confused. He is unsure how his specific direction is due East, but he's not surprised that he is not West, where he wanted to be. That means he was trying to flee. "You saved our lives. You get a pass." further reinforces that Stanley was expecting to die.

He is at least puzzled, in my opinion. The fact that there was a question at all as to where he ended up strongly suggests that one can traverse a hex occupied by enemy units.


Once invisible, he had the option of going around Jillian and into the west. If this were possible, wouldn't Jillian have been looking in that direction to find him? Instead she spots his bat veil moving due east, the opposite direction he should be going, and where they would be most concerned if he did go.

I'm sure she did look all around, or is did I miss the part where she says, kung-fu-movie fashion, "I must look in that direction only, for that is the direction which my most vile enemy must flee!"


Jack may have manipulated the specific direction, but he did not change Stanley's mind from "Get to Faq" to "Go the wrong direction". He manipulated it from "Flee" to "Flee towards GK".

Yes, what I wrote was a bit sloppy. I agree: He played upon Stanley manifold confusion (not only about his direction of flight, but a general existential confusion stemming from his recent reversals of fortune) to persuade him gently that perhaps he ought to return to GK--with the added push that he was already heading in that direction.

SteveMB
2009-01-06, 12:02 PM
Jack may have manipulated the specific direction, but he did not change Stanley's mind from "Get to Faq" to "Go the wrong direction". He manipulated it from "Flee" to "Flee towards GK".

More precisely, he fooled Stanley about where he was headed during the breakout from the hex (Stanley thought he was headed west toward Faq when in fact he was headed east toward GK -- note that Stanley is "not sure how that happened" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html).) With that fait accompli, Stanley is pretty much cut off from making another attempt to reach Faq; he has only a half-dozen dwagons left. Jack then nudges Stanley into deciding to head back for GK.

Godskook
2009-01-06, 04:45 PM
From Klog 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html):

Garrison zone has three parts: Tower, Courtyard and Dungeon. For purposes of attack, tower borders airspace, courtyard borders outer walls, dungeon borders tunnels. Enemy units assaulting from the outer walls must attack courtyard first, airspace can't attack dungeon, etc.

One can interpret this as suggesting that one cannot attack the courtyard from the tunnels as they border the dungeon and that one cannot attack the courtyard from the air without first going to the tunnel. Why remark that once one is in one part of the garrison one can reach any other part if one can already reach the courtyard from airspace? Sure, it's not specified, but it could be argued that this is the case and it stands my own "sounds reasonable" test.

a)Tower can also attack courtyard, so Airspace need not ever go to the tunnels to get to the courtyard.

b)Except it says "outer walls must attack courtyard first" for outer walls while it says "airspace can't attack dungeon" for airspace. The change in grammar indicates that different things are being said in each phrase. If the Author had wanted the same meaning conveyed in both, I would have expected him use the same grammar in both, or more clearly, outrightly say what some on the boards are saying: "parts of the garrison zone can only be attacked by the city zone that borders it". Since the Author went through the trouble of actually stating each separately, and in grammatically different ways, we really can't assume he meant the same thing in both cases.

c)I just realized, this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0031.html is evidence that GK units can move from Airspace to Courtyard*. Are we really to assume that without explicit statements to the contrary, RCC troops can't do the same?

*If you're curious as to how we know that this happened in the courtyard, look in the background of the panels. Several panels show both the courtyard and outer walls. Without getting the Tower in the panel too, that is only possible from within the courtyard, especially from multiple angles.


(I apologize if 'm being dense here.)

Nope, you're not. You're one of the few who actually posted something on topic.

teratorn
2009-01-06, 05:19 PM
c)I just realized, this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0031.html is evidence that GK units can move from Airspace to Courtyard*. Are we really to assume that without explicit statements to the contrary, RCC troops can't do the same?

I'm inclined to agree with you, but one should note that GK units control the tower.

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 05:54 PM
a)Tower can also attack courtyard, so Airspace need not ever go to the tunnels to get to the courtyard.

b)Except it says "outer walls must attack courtyard first" for outer walls while it says "airspace can't attack dungeon" for airspace. The change in grammar indicates that different things are being said in each phrase. If the Author had wanted the same meaning conveyed in both, I would have expected him use the same grammar in both, or more clearly, outrightly say what some on the boards are saying: "parts of the garrison zone can only be attacked by the city zone that borders it". Since the Author went through the trouble of actually stating each separately, and in grammatically different ways, we really can't assume he meant the same thing in both cases.

Possibly; but Parson's klogs are conversational or informal in nature. I wouldn't hang much on differences in construction when the two phrases have parallel elements and are listed together and tied off with an etcetera at the end.


c)I just realized, this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0031.html is evidence that GK units can move from Airspace to Courtyard*. Are we really to assume that without explicit statements to the contrary, RCC troops can't do the same?

I could argue that those dwagons were by definition in some part of the main garrison, either in the air surrounding the tower or in the air that is officially part of the courtyard. But, truthfully, we already know that there are differences in what is allowed to units of the faction holding a city and to a unit from an invading faction.

I never suggested that I had definitive evidence; I do find it suggestive. And, again, is "smells right" to me so I'll lean in that direction while withholding judgment.

Godskook
2009-01-06, 07:24 PM
Possibly; but Parson's klogs are conversational or informal in nature. I wouldn't hang much on differences in construction when the two phrases have parallel elements and are listed together and tied off with an etcetera at the end.

Actually, the construction differences are merely supporting evidence to the larger point that it is never actually stated that 'airspace can't attack courtyard'.


I could argue that those dwagons were by definition in some part of the main garrison, either in the air surrounding the tower or in the air that is officially part of the courtyard.

Very true, you could.


But, truthfully, we already know that there are differences in what is allowed to units of the faction holding a city and to a unit from an invading faction.

Yes, but each difference has been explained beforehand(or at least one has been attempted). Here, we have no explaination indicating that GK troops get a special "can move from Airspace to Courtyard" allowance that enemy troops aren't allowed.


I never suggested that I had definitive evidence; I do find it suggestive. And, again, is "smells right" to me so I'll lean in that direction while withholding judgment.

I'm not saying that I know for sure which way it is. I am saying that people can't cry foul on this one. The way the Author presented the rules concerning Airspace so far does not explicitly say that Airspace can't attack Courtyard. If it turns out that Airspace can, fine, if it turns out that Airspace can't, fine, but if in the next thread, we have some situation where Ansom enters the Courtyard from the Airspace, people* have no right to cry foul.

(*I don't think you'd be one of them)

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 07:32 PM
OK. To be thorough, though, I'll just add that the dwagons could have, once summed, also theoretically quickly flown from airspace, "through" the tower part of the garrison, and into the courtyard.

We really know little about where the outer walls, the towers, and, yes, the courtyard end and where GK's airspace zone begins.

Kreistor
2009-01-07, 02:39 AM
Kreistor your usual post seem to make some large amounts of sense but lately on the topics of passing through hexes youve been a little dense.

Starting with an insult is not going to result in a friendly response.


All this talk of being able to pass through a contested hex could be wrong. Were punching through could have meant something to the effect of were gonna kick his BOOP.

His goal was Faq, so he needed to pass through the mountain. If he didn't want to pass through to Faq, why fight at all? You later in this message suggest he was afraid of fighting them, so if he was afraid, he wouldn't enter the hex. He entered because he thought he could win. As far as I saw, his fight with Caesar didn't change anything. Caesar shows battle wounds, but Stanley is pristine, and is still pristine after fleeing the hex. Would Wanda have killed the dwagon out from under him? That was Jack's veil (the dwagon survived and left the hex... Stanley's ride is armoured and unique, so easy to identify), so no, we can't say for certain that she could have. Point is, Jack cast a veil at the last second, allowing Stanley to avoid contact with Jillian, and Stanley turns tail instead of passing her and using the veil's distraction to let him keep momentum flying in the opposite direction to the RCC forces.


Jack was asked by Parson to get back to GK and when they were vieled he obviously redirected stanley back and then told him that they realy shouldnt have left.

See my discussion above. Stanley knew he had to flee. If a veil could have been used to bypass Jillian, he would have been livid with Jack for not using it for such a purpose.


Regardless of that Erfworld uses flyers like advanced cavalry. Dwagons with warrlords are able to selectivly engage targets and ansome is a flying warlord when he passes into the lower outer wall zone. He can simply choose to not engage any units there.

So, why couldn't Stanley have used his veil to bypass Jillian in the same way Ansom bypasses the GK infantry? I'm arguing about inconsistency here. If Ansom can do it, Stanley can do it, and vice versa. The Veil provides movement that cannot be interfered with. The Carpet provides movement that cannot be interfered with. So why can Ansom hit Wanda, while Stanley cannot pass to Faq? My argument is about consistent application of rules.


IT IS ENTIRLY POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO HAVE GONE STRAIGHT TO THE COURTYARD BECAUSE WE DON"T KNOW THAT THE AUTHORS HAVE STIPULAITED THAT AIR UNITS MUST FOLLOW THE STRICT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT GROUND UNITS DO FOR CITY COMBAT. FURTHERMORE THE PLIERS FELL RIGHT NEXT TO THE BOOPING WALL AND HE WAS ALREADY IN THE WALL ZONE.

"For purposes of attack, airspace borders Tower." It's clear. Airspace cannot attack Courtyard. The question here is: where does wall end and Courtyard begin? Personally, I think it is absurd for Courtyard to not have a physically defined border, that's why I feel that it should extend right up to the edge of the wall, and my earliest arguments were based on that. Yes, it is probable that Outer Walls extend to include some ground level given the last strips, but that results in a very bad situation for the rules. Airspace now extends down all the way to ground level, where you see Ansom. So why can't Airspace attack Courtyard if there is no physical barrier defining the two? See, if airspace comes down with Outer Walls to the bottom, but suddenly ends because you get to close to the Tower... well, that's pretty frickin' arbitrary. You're the one that ends his argument with a complaint people are griping on physics in Erfworld. How is that not arbitrary? How can there be ground where air can fly, then suddenly a wall goes up that prevents entry, but only if you decide to attack? Physical boundaries based on intent? Outer Walls not attacking Dungeon makes sense: dungeon wouldn't have entrances near the walls. Tunnels only attacking dungeon makes sense: the tunnels near the courtyard are defined to be Dungeon. Airspace, though... well, airspace is free for movement anywhere above ground. What prevents an attacking flier from landing in the courtyard, an area open to the sky or else it would be a building instead of courtyard? See, there's some arbitrariness to the rules already, but if there's no definable physical barrier, it's just that much more so. I don't like arbitrary for the sake of parallelism, personally, and that's what this feels like. He wanted Airspace to be to Tower as Tunnels were to Dungeon.


Now stanley fleeing from the interception force is completely logical also like the cavallry. It was mentioned that they had a chance to spot his viel should he have one with as many eyes as they had. So Stanley flying further in the direction of the enemy troops

He was already past every enemy unit except for Jillian and her reserves (you can see them fighting behind Stanley). He had to flee back through that force to get back to Faq, risking close range engagements. If he wanted to avoid close range detection, he was better off flying towards Faq, away from the fighting, instead of back into the fighting towards GK.


(What I mean by this talk of cavalry is that while air uunits can selectivly engage ground units freely given the choice, air units must outmanuver each other like two squads of oppositng mounted warriors or airplanes. They can buzz normal groundpouders with little resistance but still have to chase each other around the battle field.)

Methinks you are overstating. You're using the dwagon attacks on seige units to suggest air units are invulnerable to ground melee. This is simply not true. Dwagons breath fire, giving them a ranged attack to use against ground targets without them. Further, they are seen attacking tall seige engines with melee, far out of reach of ground troops.

It is not that they are air units that make them invulnerable, but that they are dwagons.

If, on the other hand, Jillian tried to "buzz" ground troops with just her sword, she and her mount would be in melee range, then the ground troops would get their "hitsies".


In conclusion, the art mans point is that his art just explained why they never got anywere near the courtyard. So all my arguments are just my frustraition at yawhos. And its not as simple as Stanley disengaging because if he were spotted the other side could re-engage.

That's one interpretation. But all interpretations have repercussions on other aspects of the game, as I hope I've shown above. If you're fine with an arbitrary invisible wall whereever Courtyard happens to end and Outer Walls begins, that's okay for you. It's not okay for me. I find it arbitrary and nonsensical.


My final take on all this,

Uhm... whatever floats your boat.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 03:26 AM
...
If you were right then the phrase Airspace borders Tower loses ALL meaning.
Also the Author responded to the backlash about the Ansom in the Courtyard thing by saying he didn't go to the Courtyard. The Author said Ansom went to the inner section of the Outer Walls. If going to the Courtyard was allowed (hint: it isn't), the Author would have said that too to avoid further confusion.
Hence you are wrong, stop wasting our time.

DevilDan
2009-01-07, 03:43 AM
See my discussion above. Stanley knew he had to flee. If a veil could have been used to bypass Jillian, he would have been livid with Jack for not using it for such a purpose.

So, why couldn't Stanley have used his veil to bypass Jillian in the same way Ansom bypasses the GK infantry? I'm arguing about inconsistency here. If Ansom can do it, Stanley can do it, and vice versa. The Veil provides movement that cannot be interfered with. The Carpet provides movement that cannot be interfered with. So why can Ansom hit Wanda, while Stanley cannot pass to Faq? My argument is about consistent application of rules.

Stanley barely made it out of that hex; he had Jillian and multiple warlords on his (dwagon's) tail. He was fleeing for his life, so he decided to be satisfied with "living to fight another day." He was rattled and he knew that he survived by the skin of his teeth thanks to Jack's last-minute recovery.

Godskook
2009-01-07, 04:40 PM
If you were right then the phrase Airspace borders Tower loses ALL meaning.

No it doesn't, at least not to me. Besides, a theory is not disproved by showing a sentence that loses meaning if we accept it.

However, let us look at this argument applied in reverse for a second. If 'borders' means what one can and can't attack, the sentence following loses all meaning as well because it is only repeating what was said previously. The only way including both sentences make sense is if they tell us different things. Hence, by your argument, 'borders' is not equivalent to 'can only attack'.


Also the Author responded to the backlash about the Ansom in the Courtyard thing by saying he didn't go to the Courtyard. The Author said Ansom went to the inner section of the Outer Walls. If going to the Courtyard was allowed (hint: it isn't), the Author would have said that too to avoid further confusion.

I wouldn't go reading the Author's mind if I were you. He cleared up the misunderstanding at hand, and has stated that he doesn't like explaining things outside the storyline. Given that, to expect him to clear up this issue is expecting more than he has shown himself willing to give thus far.

Also, silence can rarely be taken as proof of a point.


Hence you are wrong, stop wasting our time.

I can't waste anybody's time but my own.

Kreistor
2009-01-07, 08:02 PM
The Author said Ansom went to the inner section of the Outer Walls.

Where? I can't find it. I don't doubt it, but I can't find it.

Doran
2009-01-07, 10:42 PM
The Author says here that Wanda is in the outer walls zone, and therefore Ansom is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580422#post5580422)

Other useful word of god stuff:

Ansom's license touch and the carpet moving across zones. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5448820#post5448820)

The Author explains turn order rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5448054#post5448054)

Looking forward to the wiki :smallwink:

SteveMB
2009-01-07, 11:10 PM
Looking forward to the wiki :smallwink:

There's a scratchpad wiki work-in-progress here (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Erfworld).

Doran
2009-01-07, 11:55 PM
There's a scratchpad wiki work-in-progress here (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Erfworld).

Hmm interesting, it probably needs to be separate from the scratchpad one though.

Simanos
2009-01-10, 06:07 AM
No it doesn't, at least not to me. Besides, a theory is not disproved by showing a sentence that loses meaning if we accept it.

What does it mean then smartass?
And of course a theory is disproved by showing a sentence OF THE AUTHORS/COMIC loses meaning if we accept that theory, because it's obvious then to anyone with half a brain that the theory is WRONG!


However, let us look at this argument applied in reverse for a second. If 'borders' means what one can and can't attack, the sentence following loses all meaning as well because it is only repeating what was said previously. The only way including both sentences make sense is if they tell us different things. Hence, by your argument, 'borders' is not equivalent to 'can only attack'.

What are you talking about? What following sentence? Be specific, and explain how it makes the previous lose meaning. If it is repeating what was said previously it doesn't make the previous lose meaning. It reinforces/explains it (for jacks like you I guess).


I wouldn't go reading the Author's mind if I were you. He cleared up the misunderstanding at hand, and has stated that he doesn't like explaining things outside the storyline. Given that, to expect him to clear up this issue is expecting more than he has shown himself willing to give thus far.

We're all reading the Author's mind. You do it too hypocrite. And yes, he pretty much cleared it so wtf don't you just admit it and stop trying to twist reality. You are wrong and I am right (well initially I was wrong too, I hadn't noticed the second walls, the small square ones).
Stop making a fool of yourself. It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and dispel all doubt. :smallcool:


Also, silence can rarely be taken as proof of a point.

I can't waste anybody's time but my own.
Sure it can. You're just bad at logic and stuff. You're also letting your pride dictate your actions so you can't admit to yourself you are making mistakes. Also, you are indeed wasting my time too :smalltongue:

PS: Just a joke this last part...