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Fax Celestis
2009-01-05, 04:38 PM
HD: d8

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
1st | +1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | Favored Terrain, Track | 0 | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +0 | Ambush +1d4, Natural Bond | 0 | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +2 | +3 | +1 | Woodland Stride | 1 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +2 | +4 | +1 | Momentum | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +3 | +4 | +1 | Ambush +2d4, Favored Terrain | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +3 | +5 | +2 | Dire Charge | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +3 | +5 | +2 | Armored Mobility -1 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +4 | +6 | +2 | Ambush +3d4, Trackless Step | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +4 | +6 | +3 | Camouflage | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +5 | +7 | +3 | Favored Terrain, Armored Mobility -2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +7 | +3 | Ambush +4d4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +6 | +8 | +4 | Hide in Plain Sight | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +8 | +4 | Armored Mobility -3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +9 | +4 | Ambush +5d4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +7 | +9 | +5 | Favored Terrain | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +7 | +10 | +5 | Armored Mobility -4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +8 | +10 | +5 | Ambush +6d4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +8 | +11 | +6 | Trackless Troupe | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +9 | +11 | +6 | Armored Mobilty -5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +9 | +12 | +6 | Favored Terrain, Ambush +7d4, Improved Momentum | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2[/table]

Skills (4 + Int, x4 at first level): A ranger starts with either the Explorer, the Adventurer, or the Trapper skill set and selects one other. She also receives Initiative as a bonus skill.

Prowess: A ranger receives four points of prowess per level.

Proficiencies: A ranger is proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as light and medium armor and shields (but not tower shields).

Spellcasting: Beginning at 1st level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a rangerís spell is 10 + the spell level + the rangerís Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When the table indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level. The ranger does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

A ranger prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Favored Terrain (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a natural environment from among those given on the table below. Due to the ranger's experience in that environment, she gains a +2 bonus on Awareness, Stealth, and Survival checks when using these skills in that environment. She also gains the same bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks made in association with that environment (or on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks made in association with underground environments, if the ranger has selected underground as a favored environment).

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (at 10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored environment from those given on the table and gains an identical bonus on the appropriate skill checks in that environment. In addition, at each such interval, the bonuses in any one favored environment (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2. For example, a 5th-level ranger has two favored environments. In one she has a +4 bonus on the appropriate skill checks, and in the other he has a +2 bonus. At 10th level, she has three favored environments, and she gains an additional +2 bonus, which she can allocate to any of her three favored environments. Thus, her bonuses could be either +4, +4, and +2 or +6, +2, and +2.

If the ranger chooses desert or forest, she must also choose a climate type, as indicated on the table (either "cold" or "temperate or warm" for desert, or "cold or temperate" or "warm" for forest).

The game master may rule that a ranger can't select an environment that she has never visited.

{table=head]Environment | Examples
Aquatic | sea, ocean (on or under water)
Desert, cold | tundra
Desert, temperate or warm | badlands, sandy desert
Forest, cold or temperate | forest
Forest warm | jungle
Hills | rugged terrain up to 2,000 feet elevation
Marsh | bog, moor, swamp
Mountain | rugged terrain above 2,000 feet elevation
Plains | farmland, grassland, steppe, prairie
Underground | dungeons, caverns
Urban | towns, cities[/table]

Track: A ranger gains the Track feat as a bonus feat at first level. A ranger who has the urban Favored Environment can instead opt to take Urban Tracking as a bonus feat instead.

Ambush: Starting at second level, a ranger becomes better able to take advantage of surprised foes. Whenever she strikes a foe that is flat-footed, the ranger adds 1d4 damage. This damage improves by 1d4 each three levels thereafter (to 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 8th, and so on), to a maximum of 7d4 at 20th level. Since this is not precision damage, this additional damage affects even creatures who are immune to sneak attack or critical hits.

Natural Bond: At second level, the ranger becomes more in tune with nature. She may select between one of the following powers: either she may obtain a suite of domains, adding its spells to her spell list and obtaining their domain powers; alternatively, she may obtain an animal companion.

If she chooses the domain option, she gains access to the Animal, Plant, and Weather domains. She does not cast these with her regular spell slots, though she does add the spells to her class spell list for determining the use of spell completion and spell trigger items.

Instead, she uses the following table to determine her domain spells per day:

{table=head]Level | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th
2nd | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
4th | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
5th | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
7th | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
8th | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
10th | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
11th | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | -
12th | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | -
13th | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | -
14th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
15th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
16th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
17th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1
18th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1
19th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1
20th | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1[/table]

Like her regular spellcasting, the ranger prepares spells--in fact, she prepares these domain spells and her regular spells at the same time.

Unlike regular spellcasting, the numbers on the table above are fixed, and she does not gain bonus domain spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. She is not required to have a high Wisdom score to cast high-level spells from these domains, although the DCs of these spells (if applicable) are determined according to the Spellcasting class feature above.

Alternatively, she may gain the services of an animal companion, selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.

A 2nd level ranger's companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a ranger advances in level, the animalís power increases as shown on the table. If a ranger releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.

A ranger of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the characterís ranger level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the characterís ranger level and compare the result with the ranger level entry on the table to determine the animal companionís powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the rangerís effective level to 0 or lower, she canít have that animal as a companion.)

Animal Companion Basics
Use the base statistics for a creature of the companionís kind, but make the following changes.

{table=head]Class Level | Bonus HD | Natural Armor Adj. | Str/Dex Adj. | Bonus Tricks | Special
1st-2nd | +0 | +0 | +0 | 1 | Link, share spells
3rd-5th | +2 | +2 | +1 | 2 | Evasion
6th-8th | +4 | +4 | +2 | 3 | Devotion
9th-11th | +6 | +6 | +3 | 4 | Multiattack
12th-14th | +8 | +8 | +4 | 5 | -
15th-17th | +10 | +10 | +5 | 6 | Improved evasion
18th-20th | +12 | +12 | +6 | 7 | -[/table]

Class Level: The characterís ranger level. The rangerís class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companionís abilities and the alternative lists available to the character.

Bonus HD: Extra Animal-type Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companionís base attack and base save bonuses. See the Animal type for details.

Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is an improvement to the animal companionís existing natural armor bonus.

Str/Dex Adj.: Add this value to the animal companionís Strength and Dexterity scores.

Bonus Tricks: The value given in this column is the total number of "bonus" tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the ranger might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks donít require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they donít count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The ranger selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they canít be changed.

Link (Ex): A ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesnít have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The ranger gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Share Spells (Ex): At the rangerís option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the ranger before the duration expires.

Additionally, the ranger may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A ranger and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companionís type (animal).

Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.

Devotion (Ex): An animal companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a -5 penalty.

Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, an animal companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and only half damage if the saving throw fails.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her.

Momentum (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a ranger increases her initiative score (not her modifier) by 1 at the end of each of her turns. This may alter her place in the initiative order: if so, she acts at her new placement. This bonus dissipates at the end of combat.

As a function of this ability, the ranger may use a swift action to force an opponent within 30' to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 ranger level + Wis mod). If the foe fails, they become flat-footed until the end of the ranger's turn. At the end of this round of combat--that is, when initiative passes the bottom of the initiative order and returns to the top of the list--the ranger lowers their initiative score by 5 and acts at this new placement.

Dire Charge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, whenever a ranger charges a flat-footed opponent, she may make a full-attack at the end of her charge, including Ambush damage.

Armored Mobility (Ex): At 7th level and beyond, a ranger decreases the armor check penalty on any armor she wears and which she is proficient by 1. This reduction increases each three levels thereafter, to 2 at 10th, 3 at 13th, and so on, to a maximum of 5 at 19th level. Any medium or heavy armor whose armor check penalty is reduced to zero no longer causes the ranger to decrease their movement speed.

Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. A ranger who has the urban Favored Terrain may apply this abilities effects while in an urban setting.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 9th level or higher can use the Stealth skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesnít grant cover or concealment. A ranger who has the urban Favored Terrain may apply this abilities effects while in an urban setting.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. A ranger who has the urban Favored Terrain may apply this abilities effects while in an urban setting.

Trackless Troupe (Ex): At 18th level, the ranger gains the ability to hide her allies' tracks as well as her own. She may apply her Trackless Stride ability to a number of allies equal to her Wisdom modifier while using that ability.

Improved Momentum (Ex): At 20th level, the ranger is able to aid her allies into moving more adroitly. Any ally who ends their turn within 30' of the ranger improves their initiative score by 1, in the same fashion as the Momentum ability. The ranger may also utilize a swift action to gain an extra move action this round. At the end of this round of combat--that is, when initiative passes the bottom of the initiative order and returns to the top of the list--the ranger lowers their initiative score by 5 and acts at this new placement.

Lert, A.
2009-01-05, 04:52 PM
Looks good.


Like the domain spells added to spell list. Look forward to seeing Ranger spell list, see what may be added, changed, etc.

thegurullamen
2009-01-05, 05:10 PM
Why is the capstone ability teamwork-oriented when the rest of the class screams "loner"?

Baron Corm
2009-01-05, 05:17 PM
Oh, good, now my ranger thread won't get any replies :smalltongue:

Looks pretty cool though, especially the whole Momentum thing, though I'm not sure what a bunch of these abilities have to do with rangers. I suppose this is more like a ranger/scout?

Dire Charge is a pretty sweet and simple way of balancing Pounce, too (but now all of our uberchargers will be invisible =O!). It's one of the only things that's not improved during the class though, so maybe to fill in the 18th level, improve Dire Charge in some way? Make a full attack against every flatfooted opponent within charge range who is lower than you in initiative order? That could be too much, but something like that.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-05, 05:21 PM
Why is the capstone ability teamwork-oriented when the rest of the class screams "loner"?

I wanted to improve an existing feature instead of come up with a different one. Do you have a better suggestion for what could go there?

Jasdoif
2009-01-05, 05:43 PM
I wanted to improve an existing feature instead of come up with a different one. Do you have a better suggestion for what could go there?Well, the first thing that comes to my mind, is sacrificing some amount of your initiative score to gain an extra move action or something. I mean, you've got a steadily increasing Initiative score, if you get to the top of the order you may as well do something with the excess....

I'm not quite sure how to keep something like that balanced, though.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-01-05, 05:48 PM
I wanted to improve an existing feature instead of come up with a different one. Do you have a better suggestion for what could go there?

Perhaps whenever Momentum would let him improve his initiative so that he now acts before an enemy he previously acted after, he treats them as flat-footed on his next turn? Kind of like "Well, I didn't get to take advantage of you being flat-footed at the beginning of combat, but I've caught up now!"

No idea what you'd call it (Lethal Momentum or Tricky Footwork or anything else I can think of either sound boring, stupid, or too rogue-ish), but it would add a nice bit of synergy with Ambush and Dire Charge.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-05, 06:21 PM
How about Skill Mastery ability for Survival, Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Dungeoneering)?

I'm not sure if I like the spellcasting, to me, a Ranger's touch with nature should be more innate. To use an analogy, Rangers are to Paladins what Druids are to Clerics, and I've always disliked Paladins having spells.

I also don't see them using many elemental effects. I think that, perhaps, Animal or Plant domain abilities may be appropriate, or at least some means of communing with plants/animals, but I just don't see them tossing around Fireballs or the like.

Also, Ambush, and similar abilities, look exploitable, particularly in conjunction with Feint (rendering opponent flat-footed). Why not make it closer to "On the first round of combat, if his opponents are not aware of his presence", which seems to be closer to what you are wanting to do.

However, I greatly applaud your use of Terrain Mastery. I always felt that was a great flaw in the Core Ranger.

They seem to have lost Swift Tracker, I would like to see that returned. Perhaps some other benefits to tracking as well. These guys are Rangers, after all.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-05, 06:25 PM
I like it. Momentum is very interesting. I like the idea of "spending" your Initiative score for bonuses. Given the nature of what the initiative score means, extra move actions would make sense. Perhaps some other speed related bonuses, like making an opponent flatfooted against your attacks for a round, casting a spell as a Move or Swift action...

Regarding Natural Bond: Does the Ranger only get the 1 Domain throughout their career? Are your new domains really powerful enough to even think of comparing to an animal companion? Could the ranger gain new domains, or have them improved, like how he can get a better animal companion and how they improve? Assuming you're keeping domains at least roughly what they are in 3.5, Rangers will only be able to use up to lv 4 spells anyways. Seems like a very foolish choice to take over an AC right now.

Minor question: Why is your medium save progression +8 at level 19? Wouldn't the pattern dictate it to change from 8 to 9 at 19th level? And that way poor saves "max" at 18th level, medium saves at 19th level, and good saves at 20th level.

Other that that, the class looks great! I can't wait to see the rest of d20r!

Fax Celestis
2009-01-05, 06:52 PM
I'm not sure if I like the spellcasting, to me, a Ranger's touch with nature should be more innate. To use an analogy, Rangers are to Paladins what Druids are to Clerics, and I've always disliked Paladins having spells. Sorry, spellcasting's staying, though the spells themselves will likely change somewhat.


I also don't see them using many elemental effects. I think that, perhaps, Animal or Plant domain abilities may be appropriate, or at least some means of communing with plants/animals, but I just don't see them tossing around Fireballs or the like. That's a possibility.


Also, Ambush, and similar abilities, look exploitable, particularly in conjunction with Feint (rendering opponent flat-footed). Why not make it closer to "On the first round of combat, if his opponents are not aware of his presence", which seems to be closer to what you are wanting to do."Ambush" is pretty much "Sudden Strike lite", so I don't really see a problem with letting the ranger utilize it against any flat-footed target. The rogue gets better damage off an easier-to-activate mechanic in the form of sneak attack.


They seem to have lost Swift Tracker, I would like to see that returned. Perhaps some other benefits to tracking as well. These guys are Rangers, after all.

Swift tracking got folded into the investable Track feat.

I like it. Momentum is very interesting. I like the idea of "spending" your Initiative score for bonuses. Given the nature of what the initiative score means, extra move actions would make sense. Perhaps some other speed related bonuses, like making an opponent flatfooted against your attacks for a round, casting a spell as a Move or Swift action... That's a distinct possibility.


Regarding Natural Bond: Does the Ranger only get the 1 Domain throughout their career? Are your new domains really powerful enough to even think of comparing to an animal companion? Could the ranger gain new domains, or have them improved, like how he can get a better animal companion and how they improve? Assuming you're keeping domains at least roughly what they are in 3.5, Rangers will only be able to use up to lv 4 spells anyways. Seems like a very foolish choice to take over an AC right now.Point taken. I'm considering limiting animal companions to the base versions and not allowing advanced companions, but that's merely theory. I'll consider making a domain progression instead of just a domain selection.


Minor question: Why is your medium save progression +8 at level 19? Wouldn't the pattern dictate it to change from 8 to 9 at 19th level? And that way poor saves "max" at 18th level, medium saves at 19th level, and good saves at 20th level.

That...would be a math error.

Charlie Kemek
2009-01-05, 07:04 PM
Cool. a couple questions though.

Why is the spellcasting have 4th level spells go to 4 per day before any other levels?

Did you consider using skirmish damage instead of ambush damage? I personally think that that also feels rangery, maybe a choice between the two? I am not saying that ambush is bad, but I personally like skirmish better.

As for the capstone, why not double the momentum up? 2 per round rather than 1, etc.?

MammonAzrael
2009-01-05, 07:07 PM
Perhaps with Domains, Rangers would cast them separately from their other spells, at a more normal progression, giving them access to a very select number of high level spells. Or the domain abilities could be invest-able somehow (perhaps be spending your Initiative score?).

Maybe there could be unique domains related to terrain, and would gain bonuses for being your Favored Terrain.

EDIT: As Charlie mentioned, the spell progression does look a bit wonky.

And Charlie, just bumping the Momentum to +2 seems a little undramatic for a capstone, IMO. I wouldn't avoid taking a PrC for something like that.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-05, 07:19 PM
My thoughts-

Momentum: This is awesome. I agree with previous posters that the ranger should be able to spend their momentum at some point to gain combat advantages (flat foot opponents or gain additional actions).

Ambush: You say flat footed, but do you really mean flat footed? Just because a creature is denied its dex bonus to AC doesn't mean it is flat footed. As far as I know, only at the start of combat before you have acted, and a couple other obscure and very rare circumstances, is somebody actually flat footed. Even if you are invisible or have succesfully feinted an opponent, they are not considered flat-footed, just denied their dexterity bonus to AC.

Attunement: Great! I like the choice of improved spellcasting or an animal companion, and I like the choice early in the ranger's career. The elemental domains may not be appropriate, but they may be OK. In the end it'll be your preference.

Archery: Wait a minute, no archery bonuses? What the heck! Will there be archery spells on the spell list? Are you making up new spells for the spell list? We just don't know!!!

Fax Celestis
2009-01-05, 07:32 PM
Why is the spellcasting have 4th level spells go to 4 per day before any other levels?

...

*shakes fist at Reina's class table generator*

I'll fix that.


Did you consider using skirmish damage instead of ambush damage? I personally think that that also feels rangery, maybe a choice between the two? I am not saying that ambush is bad, but I personally like skirmish better. Skirmish isn't OGL, so I won't be using it.


Perhaps with Domains, Rangers would cast them separately from their other spells, at a more normal progression, giving them access to a very select number of high level spells.
YES. AMAZING. PERFECT. *chalks up on "to-add" list*


Momentum: This is awesome. I agree with previous posters that the ranger should be able to spend their momentum at some point to gain combat advantages (flat foot opponents or gain additional actions).

Ambush: You say flat footed, but do you really mean flat footed? Just because a creature is denied its dex bonus to AC doesn't mean it is flat footed. As far as I know, only at the start of combat before you have acted, and a couple other obscure and very rare circumstances, is somebody actually flat footed. Even if you are invisible or have succesfully feinted an opponent, they are not considered flat-footed, just denied their dexterity bonus to AC.

*reads these two statements together*

That's how to fix that. Spend Momentum to either gain a move action or flat-foot an opponent for one round.


Archery: Wait a minute, no archery bonuses? What the heck! Will there be archery spells on the spell list? Are you making up new spells for the spell list? We just don't know!!!

Archery is still available as a combat option. Combat styles just didn't make sense (and are more the purview of the Dreadnaught anyway).

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-05, 08:03 PM
Ever since I first got the First Edition PHB in 1981, the Ranger has been my personal favorite class. While I had a few issues with the 3.0 Ranger and was relatively pleased with both the 3.5 Ranger and the non-spellcasting Ranger from UA, this version blows them away. Good job. I especially enjoy the Favored Terrain feature.

I have a couple of questions, which may have already been addressed. First, with Natural Bond, it seems the Ranger can either have access to one of a few domains, or can get an animal companion. As someone who is not a fan of animal companions (it's kind of an abused feature, along with familiars) I applaud this option. However, it seems that access to one domain isn't the same as getting an animal that improves as you level. Does the getting a domain feature also give you one extra domain spell a day, per the Cleric feature?

Second, how would the Ambush feature work in the Wound/Vitality system variant presented in UA? IIRC, Sneak Attack gives the Rogue an extra +1 to damage (for every d6 that it would normally be) in the WP/VP variant, which goes to WP in a critical hit. Would that be the same for Ambush, even though they use d4s? And wouldn't that seem a bit off, since Ambush gives more d4s than Sneak Attack gives d6s?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-05, 08:40 PM
In some ways, this Ranger is an even better archer than the Core Ranger, even with the lack of the feats, because of the additional damage generated. If you're wanting a 'sniper' ranger, you can just pick the relevant feats up at the relevant levels. However, being able to add more damage to each shot is a weak point of Archery, and one that this class is able to dramatically increase.

It lends itself to TWF as well, without actually going out and granting TWF feats.

In short, it promotes archery and TWF, by granting extra damage, without actually going out and giving you feats that let you do it better, or forcing choices or decisions on you at early levels.

I would like to posit that you can choose either Animal Companion OR both Plant and Animal Domains, including granted abilities.

Considering they already get Speak With Animals, the Animal Domain ability, this is less useful to them than to a Cleric. Many of the Animal Domain spells 5th level and under are also ones that Rangers get anyways (Summon Nature's Ally being an exception).

Also the 1st through 3rd level domain spells for the Plant domain are also Ranger spells of the same level, and the 4th level Plant domain spell is a 3rd level Ranger spell.

As written, there is almost no point whatsoever to having them. Give them both, and toss in a little something more. Maybe the old Wild Empathy, or some other method of 'diplomacy with animals' ability.

Trackless Step would also be an ability that this Ranger would likely see benefit from. In fact, it would not be out of question to be able to eventually Trackless Step the whole party, by removing all traces of the party's tracks himself.

MeklorIlavator
2009-01-05, 08:54 PM
Yay! You've finally found time to redo the ranger! I've been waiting for this since you did the Paladin. Now to go badger my Dm's to let me use it...

Not sure about the Natural bond or Momentum features as written, though I think some of the suggestions in the thread are great.

dariathalon
2009-01-05, 09:05 PM
I have to say I both love and hate the momentum class feature. It is a really interesting and flavorful dynamic, however I see a few big (imo) problems with it.

First, +1 per round is not a very big boost, especially when many combats don't last more than a handful of rounds, and now your talking about spending initiative to power other class features, which means that they probably aren't going to be getting nearly as big an impact for their bonus.

Second, and more important, in my opinion, I think this method of constantly gaining and losing initiative will be a lot of extra bookkeeping for the DM. I'm all for putting the responsibility of keeping track of a character's abilities in the player's hands. Forcing it onto an already heavily loaded DM seems like a bad idea. There are ways of adjusting to put this back on the player, but it seems like overall a lot of work for all involved.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-05, 09:07 PM
(high level domain spells)
YES. AMAZING. PERFECT. *chalks up on "to-add" list*



I like this idea, but are 9th level spells really balanced against an animal companion? Maybe take the domain up to 6 or 7 instead.






Archery is still available as a combat option. Combat styles just didn't make sense (and are more the purview of the Dreadnaught anyway).

Then I suggest home brewing some archery spells for the ranger list, because as it stands, this ranger doesn't make a great archer. He doesn't particularly rely on dexterity for any of his abilities, doesn't get any bonuses to archery (other than the highly situational ambush, which actually applies to all attacks), doesn't get any archery-related bonus feats.... is totally outclassed by the phb fighter in every way when it comes to making an archer. To me this is a slight issue, since the ranger is supposed to be a natural archers.

As for the dreadnaut... how is he a combat style expert? An archer? It's not that big of a deal, just a suggestion that I'm sure you'll take under advisement and do what you think is best with.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-05, 10:26 PM
I like this idea, but are 9th level spells really balanced against an animal companion? Maybe take the domain up to 6 or 7 instead. Perhaps, but as I pointed out, most of the lower level plant and animal spells are already Ranger spells, so it wouldn't net him much.




Then I suggest home brewing some archery spells for the ranger list, because as it stands, this ranger doesn't make a great archer. He doesn't particularly rely on dexterity for any of his abilities, doesn't get any bonuses to archery (other than the highly situational ambush, which actually applies to all attacks), doesn't get any archery-related bonus feats.... is totally outclassed by the phb fighter in every way when it comes to making an archer. To me this is a slight issue, since the ranger is supposed to be a natural archers. I disagree, particularly if there is a mechanic for making an opponent flat-footed. Extra damage on archery is hard to come by unless you want to use the Swift Hunter/Scout cheese. However, perhaps another method will present itself.


As for the dreadnaut... how is he a combat style expert? An archer? It's not that big of a deal, just a suggestion that I'm sure you'll take under advisement and do what you think is best with.

Dreadnought is supposed to be the replacement for the Fighter. He's got combat styles out the ying-yang. A quintessential free-lance soldier, his sole stock in trade being his skill in combat.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-05, 10:30 PM
I disagree, particularly if there is a mechanic for making an opponent flat-footed. Extra damage on archery is hard to come by unless you want to use the Swift Hunter/Scout cheese. However, perhaps another method will present itself.



I'd only go along with this if the mechanic to make your opponent flat footed came fairly early-way way earlier than level 20.



Dreadnought is supposed to be the replacement for the Fighter. He's got combat styles out the ying-yang. A quintessential free-lance soldier, his sole stock in trade being his skill in combat.

Source? I looked at Fax's dreadnaught and as it currently stands it has no fighting styles. I see that he intends to add them, but even if he does the class is awkardly suited to an archery build at best. His fencer doesn't make a very atractive archer either. Since he's splitting up the fighting styles among a variety of warrior-type classes, I'd say the Ranger is his best bet for an archer, but that's ultimately for him to decide.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-05, 10:48 PM
I'd only go along with this if the mechanic to make your opponent flat footed came fairly early-way way earlier than level 20. Agreed.


Source? I looked at Fax's dreadnaught and as it currently stands it has no fighting styles. I see that he intends to add them, but even if he does the class is awkardly suited to an archery build at best. His fencer doesn't make a very atractive archer either. Since he's splitting up the fighting styles among a variety of warrior-type classes, I'd say the Ranger is his best bet for an archer, but that's ultimately for him to decide.


Source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519). A Dreadnought's main ability is that he has craptons of Prowess which he can use to heavily Invest into key feats. He can grab Manyshot, invest 15 points into it to make it Greater Manyshot, grab Improved Critical, dump another 15 points into it to drop the threaten threshold to something like 16-20/X3, and still have enough Prowess left over to start dumping stuff into dump 10 into Rapid Shot for when you feel like making a Flurry with arrows. Then grab Shot on the Run, and dump the rest of your Prowess into it to grab just as much, if not more d4's in damage than the Ranger has.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 12:53 AM
Agreed.




Source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99519). A Dreadnought's main ability is that he has craptons of Prowess which he can use to heavily Invest into key feats. He can grab Manyshot, invest 15 points into it to make it Greater Manyshot, grab Improved Critical, dump another 15 points into it to drop the threaten threshold to something like 16-20/X3, and still have enough Prowess left over to start dumping stuff into dump 10 into Rapid Shot for when you feel like making a Flurry with arrows. Then grab Shot on the Run, and dump the rest of your Prowess into it to grab just as much, if not more d4's in damage than the Ranger has.
Also try the Hunter.

In other news, Hellaedits to the top.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-06, 01:09 AM
I like the changes. The new Domain option is a lot more tempting now.

And for some reason, the Fort save is back to +8 at level 19.

I'm assuming you're saving making an advanced Animal Companion table for later?

Darkkwalker
2009-01-06, 02:16 AM
you may want to review your advanced animal companion spoiler. you say druid in a spot where I think you mean ranger.

Also I just read the class, and then read everyone's comments
where is it that it says you can spend initiative points to make an opponent flat-footed?
Just a little confused.

Also wanted to say, Props to you Fax. I'm very excited for what you are doing here and cannot wait to see it when it is all finished.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-01-06, 03:33 AM
Hello everyone, Iīm a long time lurker and first time poster thats been drawn out by this excellent class reworking :smallsmile:


Anyway, I like it. Lots. There is something that struck me, though.




Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 9th level or higher can use the Stealth skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesnít grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Trackless Troupe (Ex): At 18th level, the ranger gains the ability to hide her allies' tracks as well as her own. She may apply her Trackless Stride ability to a number of allies equal to her Wisdom modifier while using that ability.


These features all specify natural terrain. Which makes little sense in the case of a ranger who has selected Urban and (to a lesser degree) Underground as favoured terrain. My suggestion would be to change them so they apply to a Rangerīs favoured terrain(s), although this does diminish their power somewhat.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-06, 03:39 AM
That, or just have them work in Urban settings if you select Urban as a Favored Terrain. And if you like this rework, you should really check out the rest of Fax's d20r, in his sig. It's really an ambitious and impressive project.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 10:18 AM
And for some reason, the Fort save is back to +8 at level 19.Fixed.


I'm assuming you're saving making an advanced Animal Companion table for later?After I start redoing some creatures, yes.


you may want to review your advanced animal companion spoiler. you say druid in a spot where I think you mean ranger.Fixed.


Also I just read the class, and then read everyone's comments
where is it that it says you can spend initiative points to make an opponent flat-footed?
Just a little confused.It essentially allows you to voluntarily lower your initiative to flat-foot an opponent. I've added some text to those abilities to try to clarify them.


These features all specify natural terrain. Which makes little sense in the case of a ranger who has selected Urban and (to a lesser degree) Underground as favoured terrain. My suggestion would be to change them so they apply to a Rangerīs favoured terrain(s), although this does diminish their power somewhat.Fixed, I think. Check it out.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 11:23 AM
Nice work. I didn't see the hunter before, but I strongly approve of it. I think as far as class features go, this is ready to rock.

I'd be interested in seeing one of these actually play. I'm pretty sure it'll rock but it's hard to tell for sure. It seems like the best move is for the ranger to voluntarily hose its initiative each round, which might get silly. Maybe add that initiative number can't go into the negatives in this way? Or would the skipped turn take care of that? I can't tell.

Also I think it's important to note that without Favored Enemy and Combat Style, the main offense of the ranger class is spellcasting (since ambush won't always be active). Are we going to see a new spell list, or does the ranger use the SRD ranger spell list? There are a lot of great ranger spells in the PHB II, but I know you're only working with OGL here.

Also interesting to note: the ranger's best bet will be a set of mithral full plate, since he can wear medium armor, have his a-c-check penalty reduced to nothing eventually, and has no chance of spell failure.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 11:25 AM
Weather domain isn't in the D20 SRD. That could cause... complications. I was looking at the Water domain, since it has some overlap, but I don't think it would be appropriate for them to get Cone of Cold as a 6th level domain spell. Perhaps the Travel domain would work? The Earth domain would also certainly be appropriate, since they don't get over 6th level spells.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 11:32 AM
Weather domain isn't in the D20 SRD. That could cause... complications. I was looking at the Water domain, since it has some overlap, but I don't think it would be appropriate for them to get Cone of Cold as a 6th level domain spell. Perhaps the Travel domain would work? The Earth domain would also certainly be appropriate, since they don't get over 6th level spells.

I'm actually going to make a Weather domain.

I'd be interested in seeing one of these actually play. I'm pretty sure it'll rock but it's hard to tell for sure. It seems like the best move is for the ranger to voluntarily hose its initiative each round, which might get silly. Maybe add that initiative number can't go into the negatives in this way? Or would the skipped turn take care of that? I can't tell.Reread Momentum. It states that you can't bomb your init below zero.


Also I think it's important to note that without Favored Enemy and Combat Style, the main offense of the ranger class is spellcasting (since ambush won't always be active). Are we going to see a new spell list, or does the ranger use the SRD ranger spell list? There are a lot of great ranger spells in the PHB II, but I know you're only working with OGL here.For now, it uses the SRD list, but that'll change somewhat.


Also interesting to note: the ranger's best bet will be a set of mithral full plate, since he can wear medium armor, have his a-c-check penalty reduced to nothing eventually, and has no chance of spell failure.It will be eventually, anyway. He doesn't get Armored Mobility -5 right off the bat.

Jasdoif
2009-01-06, 11:34 AM
For spending initiative, it might simplify matters to state that the swift action (and initiative expenditure) must take place at the start of your turn. That way, there's no chance for confusion over spending a move action to flatfoot a foe, then dealing with any intervening characters between the two initiative counts, and then going for a standard action (presumably an attack to get Ambush with).

Hmm. I don't think regular delaying allows you to split your actions between initiative counts....

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 11:35 AM
Actually, Fax, I was wrong. It is, although not in the typical location. It is located on this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm) list.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-06, 12:52 PM
Indeed, this looks pretty great to me.

Weather is SRD, as Shneeky found, though it's granted power won't do much for the Ranger. :smalltongue: I look forward to your modified domains. Will the granted powers be more powerful, or on about the same level?

And is there any particular reason lv 4 spells don't have a 0 castable category? Since you'll be messing with the "normal" progression for their spells regardless, I guess it's just a matter of deciding if you want them to have a 0 slot at 16th level. You know, that's probably not necessary, so it's probably safe to forget about this paragraph. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 01:17 PM
Indeed, this looks pretty great to me.

Weather is SRD, as Shneeky found, though it's granted power won't do much for the Ranger. :smalltongue: I look forward to your modified domains. Will the granted powers be more powerful, or on about the same level?

And is there any particular reason lv 4 spells don't have a 0 castable category? Since you'll be messing with the "normal" progression for their spells regardless, I guess it's just a matter of deciding if you want them to have a 0 slot at 16th level. You know, that's probably not necessary, so it's probably safe to forget about this paragraph. :smalltongue:

I didn't give them a 0 at 16th mostly because I didn't feel like it. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 01:19 PM
For spending initiative, it might simplify matters to state that the swift action (and initiative expenditure) must take place at the start of your turn. That way, there's no chance for confusion over spending a move action to flatfoot a foe, then dealing with any intervening characters between the two initiative counts, and then going for a standard action (presumably an attack to get Ambush with).

Hmm. I don't think regular delaying allows you to split your actions between initiative counts....

The problem I'm mostly trying to avoid is a ranger using the ability, lowering their initiative , and then acting again in the same round, repeating ad nauseum, a la White Raven Tactics abuse.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-06, 01:29 PM
You could just throw in a clause that says the Ranger doesn't get an additional turn in a round when he lowers his initiative.

Jasdoif
2009-01-06, 01:32 PM
The problem I'm mostly trying to avoid is a ranger using the ability, lowering their initiative , and then acting again in the same round, repeating ad nauseum, a la White Raven Tactics abuse....OK, now I'm thinking I was confused by the ability description. Let me try a paraphrase....You mean the ranger takes all his actions on the same (pre-expenditure) initiative count, and the new initiative count only comes into play in the next round?

(On a more general note, since you're writing a whole system anyway, consider limiting swift action "recovery" to your first turn in the next round. Should prevent the kind of accidents you're worried about.)

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 01:42 PM
...OK, now I'm thinking I was confused by the ability description. Let me try a paraphrase....You mean the ranger takes all his actions on the same (pre-expenditure) initiative count, and the new initiative count only comes into play in the next round?
Correct. Here's the order of actions:

1. Ranger goes on Init 15.
2. Ranger uses swift action to flat foot opponent and lower init by 5. Ranger's init is now 10.
3. Ranger's Mobility ability kicks in and he raises his init by 1.
4. Ranger skips his turn on his new Init 11 score.
5. Ranger goes next combat round on Init 11.

EDIT: Edited the Momentum and Improved Momentum abilities; should be clearer now.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-06, 02:54 PM
Looks good, there shouldn't be any confusion over that anymore I would think.

Also, you may want to link Prowess to your d20r feats thread.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 02:59 PM
Also, you may want to link Prowess to your d20r feats thread.

Linked. Did the same for Skill Sets.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 04:54 PM
Neither Explorer nor Trapper get Knowledge (Dungeoneering)... perhaps that skill could be added to the Explorer list so Underground terrain mastery isn't hosed?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 04:57 PM
Neither Explorer nor Trapper get Knowledge (Dungeoneering)... perhaps that skill could be added to the Explorer list so Underground terrain mastery isn't hosed?

I knew I forgot something. *goes to add*

Morty
2009-01-06, 05:01 PM
Hmmm... I'm not sure about this class. Compared to the fixed rogue, monk or paladin, the rangers seems a bit weak.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 05:07 PM
Hmmm... I'm not sure about this class. Compared to the fixed rogue, monk or paladin, the rangers seems a bit weak.

What makes you say that? They're as good at stealth as rogues are (and get to do it in better armor), they get halfcasting and either a 1:1 animal companion or 1-6 domain casting, and they also get a toned-down sneak attack.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 05:32 PM
Hmmm... I'm not sure about this class. Compared to the fixed rogue, monk or paladin, the rangers seems a bit weak.

How so? Specifics would be nice

Roderick_BR
2009-01-07, 06:43 AM
Nice job. What I like is that you finished WotC's changes, of making the ranger the "movement based" warrior, by giving him useful abilities to move through the battlefield, since he lost some direct battle capacity in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition.
Now it does feel like someone that can ran past the battlefield hitting enemies left and right, instead of walking up to someone/single attack, full attack, walking up to someone/single attack, full attack...

Since you didn't put combat style, would it be good to just lower the requisite of the TWF feats (Dex 13, 15, and 17, respectivelly, for TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, instead of 15, 17, 19) , and maybe mix it with the Two Weapon Defense feats?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 10:15 AM
Since you didn't put combat style, would it be good to just lower the requisite of the TWF feats (Dex 13, 15, and 17, respectivelly, for TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, instead of 15, 17, 19) , and maybe mix it with the Two Weapon Defense feats?

Actually, TWF has been reduced to one (!) investing feat.

Morty
2009-01-07, 11:32 AM
I'd have specified in my first post, but I was half asleep by then, so I decided to do this when I'm conscious. Of course, my half-asleep state might have weighed on my judgment as well, and it probably did: I just thought it's less impressive that Rogue with his powers, Monk with his Strikes and Paladin with his mantles. Probably because I've never liked the spellcasting aspect of the Ranger very much.
In any case, I think this class could do with more ways to make the opponent flat-footed and maybe third Natural Bond option. And finally, where can be Weather domain found? I can't find it in the SRD.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 11:43 AM
And finally, where can be Weather domain found? I can't find it in the SRD.

Actually, it is in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#weatherDomain)

Morty
2009-01-07, 11:51 AM
Actually, it is in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#weatherDomain)

Indeed it is, I was just looking in the wrong place. That said, I think that Travel domain would fit Ranger thematically as well.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-07, 11:54 AM
Hey. One thing is still a bit confusing to me. In the OP it states that if you select the domain natural attunement option, you use a separate table to determine your domain spells, then that table is presented. Does this mean that you use the normal table for your normal spells and the domain table for the domain spells? Or do you use the domain table instead of the regular table for all spells?

For example, at level 20, according to the domain table, you get 7 first level spells per day. According to the regular table you get 4 first level spells per day. So do you get 4 normal 1st level spells at 7 domain spells (11 total), or do you get 7 total spells, any number of which can be domain spells?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 11:57 AM
Hey. One thing is still a bit confusing to me. In the OP it states that if you select the domain natural attunement option, you use a separate table to determine your domain spells, then that table is presented. Does this mean that you use the normal table for your normal spells and the domain table for the domain spells? Or do you use the domain table instead of the regular table for all spells?

For example, at level 20, according to the domain table, you get 7 first level spells per day. According to the regular table you get 4 first level spells per day. So do you get 4 normal 1st level spells at 7 domain spells (11 total), or do you get 7 total spells, any number of which can be domain spells?

Option A: you use the table in the spoiler for your domain spells only.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-07, 12:15 PM
That... seems like a lot of spells. I'm interested in the reasoning behind giving the ranger twice as many1st level spells than any other class in existance so far.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 01:12 PM
That... seems like a lot of spells. I'm interested in the reasoning behind giving the ranger twice as many1st level spells than any other class in existance so far.

That...is an excellent point. Let me amend that.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 01:47 PM
Okay, done: Domain casting cut back.

Riddle Me This: I'm considering ripping the base spellcasting off the class and replacing it with a trap progression not unlike the Combat Trapsmith from CScn. Thoughts?

Morty
2009-01-07, 01:58 PM
Okay, done: Domain casting cut back.

Riddle Me This: I'm considering ripping the base spellcasting off the class and replacing it with a trap progression not unlike the Combat Trapsmith from CScn. Thoughts?

I don't have Complete Scoundrel, so I can't comment directly, but why not both? Rangers could choose between spellcasting and traps and this way, suit both those people who want their rangers to be more druid-like and those who want them to be crafty survival experts.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-07, 04:49 PM
Okay, done: Domain casting cut back.

Riddle Me This: I'm considering ripping the base spellcasting off the class and replacing it with a trap progression not unlike the Combat Trapsmith from CScn. Thoughts?

YES!

I've never been a big fan of the spellcasting ranger anyways. This would make for awesome sauce! It could also make them an effective battlefield control character if they got the right kind of traps.

Instead of an animal companion, how about an ability to temporarily use some of the wildlife to scout for him? Something like Animal Messenger that upgrades to something like Dominate Animal, only you can use it's senses? Maybe toss in Speak with Plants as well. Specify that it cannot affect anything bigger than a Small animal, to ensure it is used primarily for scouting purposes, rather than combat purposes.

SurlySeraph
2009-01-07, 05:17 PM
I love this to death, especially the option to trade the animal companion for domain spells.
I support the option of trading spells for trap progression, as well. Thereīs a lot of variety in ranger flavor, and more options are always more fun.

Charlie Kemek
2009-01-08, 05:59 PM
on a lot of the things for the ranger, it says natural setting, or something like that. why not just make it favored terrain?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-08, 06:03 PM
on a lot of the things for the ranger, it says natural setting, or something like that. why not just make it favored terrain?

Decent idea. I'll consider it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-08, 07:16 PM
Decent idea. I'll consider it.

It would be a point of limitation of power for the Ranger. If he starts getting too powerful, the GM can simply throw terrain at him that he doesn't have expertise in to pull back his more broken combos (Camo/HiPS + full attack + Rapid Shot + lots of extra d4's of damage)

Roderick_BR
2009-01-09, 11:26 AM
Actually, TWF has been reduced to one (!) investing feat.
Sweet!


It would be a point of limitation of power for the Ranger. If he starts getting too powerful, the GM can simply throw terrain at him that he doesn't have expertise in to pull back his more broken combos (Camo/HiPS + full attack + Rapid Shot + lots of extra d4's of damage)
Already happens, when you have +10 against orcs, but you haven't seem an orc since 3rd level. With terrain, you are an expert in your element, being able to counter most things there. If you do move out of your element, you lose the benefits. That does sound more interesting than just a bunch of especific enemies.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-09, 01:11 PM
Idea:

Let Rapid Shot have some sort of scaling Investing to grant it more attacks, like the TWF chain. One of the problems with ranged combat has always been that TWF can get more attacks than ranged. Or even make it ranger-specific: Just allow rangers to be ABLE to Invest extra in Rapid Shot to get more attacks, up to double base attacks. That alone would be a huge Prowess sink, which is not necessarily a bad thing for game balance, and would represent the Ranger's awsometastical bow expertise.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-09, 01:51 PM
Idea:

Let Rapid Shot have some sort of scaling Investing to grant it more attacks, like the TWF chain. One of the problems with ranged combat has always been that TWF can get more attacks than ranged. Or even make it ranger-specific: Just allow rangers to be ABLE to Invest extra in Rapid Shot to get more attacks, up to double base attacks. That alone would be a huge Prowess sink, which is not necessarily a bad thing for game balance, and would represent the Ranger's awsometastical bow expertise.

I approve this message.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 02:30 PM
Check it out: updated Rapid Shot.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-09, 05:00 PM
Check it out: updated Rapid Shot.

Maybe a little TOO powerful...


Rapid Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot

Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Investiture: Your penalty on attack rolls for using this feat reduces by 1 for each five points of prowess invested in this feat. For each ten points of prowess invested in this feat, you may make an additional attack by increasing the penalty a further -2.

A Ranger can invest 10 into Rapid Shot by level 2. There is also no cap on how many shots you can have. By level 5 I could have 30 invested for a total of 6 attacks a round, all at a -2. Granted, I won't have any other feats or skills invested, but then, will I really need to?

how about the caveat: "No character can gain more extra attacks from this feat than he has iterative attacks.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 05:19 PM
A Ranger can invest 10 into Rapid Shot by level 2. There is also no cap on how many shots you can have. By level 5 I could have 30 invested for a total of 6 attacks a round, all at a -2. Granted, I won't have any other feats or skills invested, but then, will I really need to?

Nope, he can't.


Each class receives an amount of "prowess" each level, in a fashion similar to skill points. This prowess must be invested in an applicable feat before completing the level-up process or it is lost: prowess cannot be stored from level to level. The maximum capacity for a Investing feat is your Base Attack Bonus plus three.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-09, 05:30 PM
Nope, he can't.

Ahh, so I see.

I just looked at Improved Critical, and was wondering about that...


Improved Critical [Investing]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, Base Attack Bonus +8

Benefit: Your threat range with the selected weapon increases by one for each three points of prowess invested in this feat.

Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesnít stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

At level 9, with 12 Invested, he could have a bow with a 16-20/X3. Is this right?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 05:48 PM
Imp. Crit would be more useful, then, now wouldn't it? Still, I am considering cutting it from 1/3 to 1/4.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-09, 06:31 PM
Imp. Crit would be more useful, then, now wouldn't it? Still, I am considering cutting it from 1/3 to 1/4.

Or even better, the combination of the two. More Attacks + more crit threat = more crits, at x3 damage, = lots more damage output.

I think the problem here isn't the ratio, it's the fact that you can easily get crit ranges FAR bigger than current, and it is vastly more beneficial to weapons which crit on a nat 20, which generally have higher crit multipliers to compensate for it. At level 18, you could have a weapon with a crit range of 12-20/X4. Which is just sick.

I would not change the amount of investment needed, but cap it to twice the normal threat range. So if you have a weapon that only crits on a nat 20, you cap out at 19-20, regardless of how much you invest into it. For a weapon with a crit range of 18-20, it would cap out at 15-20, which is really as high as you ever want it to get without getting crits on most of the player's hits that actually land.

Knaight
2009-01-09, 07:10 PM
You could have an exponential progression. It could cost 2, then 4, then 8, etc, and you could then just start with a different number, so you could have 2, then 3, then 6, rounding up the first one(1.5). So to go from 20 to 19-20 would be 2 points, 18-20 would be 6 points, 17-20 14 points, 16-20 30 points and 62 points for 15-20. Thats a lot of points, but for classes with 6 points of prowess per level, its only 5 levels worth for a pretty big bonus(3 to crit range). Or it could cost 2, then 4, then 6, then 8, making the total cost 2 for 19-20, 6 for 18-20, 12 for 17-20, 20 for 16-20, 30 for 15-20, etc

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 02:32 PM
Included Initiative skill.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 06:30 PM
Pondering trap system for replacement of spellcasting, since spellcasting no longer works that way. </morbo>

afroakuma
2009-08-21, 06:41 PM
Traps instead of spellcasting???! :smalleek: Don't do it Fax -


http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 06:49 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/sowhatifitisatrap.jpg

Morty
2009-08-22, 08:19 AM
Are the traps supposed to be a replacement for the base spellcasting only or for the spells granted by the Natural Bond as well? In either case, I agree that spells need to be changed and traps would make a nice option for someone who wishes to play a nonspellcasting ranger - those who want their rangers to cast magic would still have Natural Bond option that grants domains. Perhaps there could be a high-level feat that lets the ranger benefit from both Natural Bond options, though it might be overpowered.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-22, 12:20 PM
Mmmkay, key importance is to allow traps to scale in power, so they remain useful (i.e. so that a 1st level trap can still be made to be useful even at higher levels) for the purpose they were designed for, and the DC's should also scale so the opponents don't just walk through because they can't possibly fail the save.

For example, if the ability to set a trap that entangles one opponent at 1st level, it should be able to scale to be able to entangle several opponents at higher levels, or it should also have some other effect if it is used on a single target (poison maybe?).

You want to make them roughly as powerful as the magic they have access to, but being flavored a bit differently. Being traps, they are not magical in nature, which can be both a good thing and a bad thing.

Much as I personally despise to suggest such a thing, check out the WoW Hunters traps as ideas. Of course, the chilling/freezing would be reflavored to entangling. Maybe have a 'pollen cloud' trap that releases pollen in an area, which is effectively a Stinking Cloud effect, but only lasts a couple of rounds.

Basically, I think Traps would be best to be used for their Battlefield Control and debuffing, rather than pure damage output. Or, in the case of something like a bear trap, both damage AND a leg-pin.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-21, 11:22 PM
Does the Domain Spells/day cover all the domains, or do you get those spells for each domain separately? It's unclear as-is.

Also, what on earth is a L0 Ranger spell,and why have you bothered to put 0s when you cannot gain bonus orisons?

Lappy9000
2009-12-22, 12:18 AM
Does the Domain Spells/day cover all the domains, or do you get those spells for each domain separately? It's unclear as-is.

Also, what on earth is a L0 Ranger spell,and why have you bothered to put 0s when you cannot gain bonus orisons?Only the Animal Companion option is available as per the d20r Alpha, so it's a safe bet that those spells are gonna undergo some change.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-22, 01:08 AM
Ohhh darn. Changing char I guess then.

Lappy9000
2009-12-22, 01:19 AM
May I be so bold as to suggest Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48591)? We had a brief play test of it (I myself took a dip) and it's pretty snazzy :smallcool: