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mimicgogo
2004-07-28, 09:58 PM
Crull and Quarion were wandering through the woods searching for their next great adventure. *Quarion gasped as a beast emerged from the trees and slashed at his stout dwarf companion. *An abnormal red wound formed on the flesh of his buddy. *Quarion concentrated for a moment, reached out and touched the beast, and faster than the beast could react, swiped at the creature. *Even with his frail elf hands, the same sort of abnormal red wound appeared on the beast's flesh. *Amazed at his own weapon being used against him, the beast fled. *Quarion cast a spell to heal Crull's wound, and the two sat for a moment. *Crull laughed his hearty dwarf guffaw, "Guess you saved the day this time, old pal." *

"Heh, you know I couldn't have done alone." *Quarion said.

"Awww, Quarion..."

"I meant the beast, dear Crull."

"Oh. *Yeah. *Uh, I knew that, let's just get moving."

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Mimic A-Go-Go

A great adventurer knows that true power comes from those around him---Quarion Xiloscient

Some say that the strength of a warrior comes from within, but a chosen few know better. *These wise adventurers often choose to follow the path of King Quarion and become Mimics A-Go-Go. *Not only do these warriors gain power and knowledge from those around them, but they also gain unnatural speed, feeding from their keen senses, showing them that a smart warrior needs to move fast to use his power. The mimic a-go-go becomes extremely powerful, often rising above their teammates, honing their skills as they see others around them perform nobly. *

Mimics a-go-go learn as they go, often improvising plans as they go. *NPC mimics are often disguised as mere pranksters, using the players’ powers against them without them knowing it.

Hit Die: *d4.

Requirements
*
To qualify to become a Mimic A-Go-Go, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
* * *
Skills: Bluff 13 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks, Spellcraft 13 ranks.

Feats: Any Metamagic.

Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells.

Class Skills

The mimic a-go-go's class skills are any which they had as class skills previously. *For example, if Gregory had been a wizard previous to taking mimic a-go-go levels, the wizard skill set would be available to him. *If he had also had rogue levels, both wizard and rogue skills would be feasible for him to put ranks in.

Skill Points at Each Level: *2+Int modifier.

{table]LevelBase[br]Attack[br]BonusFort[br]SaveRef[br]SaveWill[br]SaveSpecialSpells per Day1st+0+0+1+1Mime Spell 1/day, Improved Initiative-2nd+1+0+1+2Fast Movement, Mime Skill+1 level of existing class3rd+1+1+2+3Mime Spell 2/day, Speedy Movement+1 level of existing class4th+2+1+3+3Improved Fast Movement, Mime Skill+1 level of existing class5th+2+1+3+4Mime Spell 3/day, Mime Feat+1 level of existing class6th+3+2+4+5Mime Ability, Mime Skill+1 level of existing class7th+3+2+5+5Mime Spell 4/day+1 level of existing class8th+4+2+5+6Mime the Extraordinary+1 level of existing class9th+4+3+6+7Mime Spell 5/day+1 level of existing class10th+5+3+7+7Mime Feat, Mime the Supernatural-[/table]

Class Features
All the following are class features of the mimic a-go-go prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mimics a-go-go gain no additional proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day: When a new mimic a-go-go level is gained, the character gains spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. *He does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. *If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a mimic a-go-go, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Mime Spell (Su): The mimic a-go-go can mentally copy any spell that sees and cast it as his own the next turn. *Anytime a spell is cast in sight of the mime, he can store the spell until his next turn and cast it, choosing the target and specifications. *The mime must be able to hear any verbal components and see any somatic components. *A DC 35 Spellcraft check allows the mime to memorize the spell; a wizard can put it in his spellbook if he does so within 24 hours of miming the spell. *Although a mimic a-go-go can mime any spell, he can only learn those off of the spell list available to him before taking the prestige class. A mimic a-go-go can use this ability once a day at first level, and his uses increase by one every other level, to a maximum of 5/day at tenth level.

Improved Initiative (Ex): *At first level the mimic a-go-go gains the improved initiative feat for free. *If the character already has the feat they gain an additional +2 to their initiative.

Fast Movement (Ex): *A mimic a-go-go’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. *This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. *Apply this bonus before modifying the mimic a-go-go’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. *For example, a human mimic a-go-gohas a speed of 40 feet rather than 30 feet when wearing light or no armor. *When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 30 feet. *A halfling mimic a-go-go has a speed of 30 feet, rather than 20 feet, in light or no armor. *When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 20 feet. *If a character already has this ability from another class, they may gain either the Run or Dash feat for free.

Mime Skill (Ex): The mimic a-go-go becomes adept at doing things he sees others do. At 2nd, 4th, and 6th level he can choose a skill that is cross-class and make it a class skill.

Speedy Movement (Ex): *At 3rd level a mimic a-go-go becomes innately faster, earning a permanent +2 bonus to his dexterity score. *

Improved Fast Movement (Ex): At 4th level a mimic a-go-go is even faster than he was before. *This ability is just like Fast Movement, but the speed increases to +20 compared to his race’s base land speed. *

Mime Feat (Su): *The mimic a-go-go can learn techniques and practices used by his fellow party members. *At 5th and 10th level the mime can learn a feat possessed by a fellow party member, even if he doesn’t have the prerequisites. *

Mime Ability (Su): For one round the mimic a-go-go can use an attack or skill, calculating the modifiers as if he had the ability modifier of somebody around him. *For example, if Franklin wants to break a door he can mime the 18 strength of his ally Crull for the purposes of one check. *This ability is usable a number of times per day equal the number of mimic a-go-go levels.

Mime the Extraordinary (Su): For up to 10 rounds per day a mimic a-go-go can use the extraordinary abilities of a creature he touched within the past 24 hours.

Mime the Supernatural (Su): For up to 5 rounds a day the mimic a-go-go can use the supernatural abilities of a creature touched within 24 hours.

Edit: Added some flavor text and raised the difficulty of memorizing a mimed spell.

Edit-Edit: *Lowered the Mime Spell's uses per day, and added a prerequisite.

Abelard
2004-07-29, 12:07 AM
Neat. I enjoy the non-traditionalism of this class.

I think your mimic ability is too powerful, though. Take a typical wizard in this class. 5th level arcane spells = Wiz 10, Mimic 1, assume Int 18. With a Spellcraft roll of 12 (+14 ranks + 4 Int = DC 30), he can scribe a 9th level spell cast at him, like Meteor Swarm. Granted, I get that he can't cast it then, but it's still powerful to have.

In fact, maybe at the lower levels, the Mimic can only go up to caster level 6 (since that's what he can cast upon entering the class), increasing every other level until level 9 spells at Mimic level 5 (can mimic up to the spell level he can cast). Otherwise, it would be tempting for the Mimic to hook up with adventurers a level or two above himself and seek out powerful mages - if he survives, he can come away with some powerful spells.

Is there really a need to mimic 10 spells per day? By that time, you're a 19th level caster - even a Wizard shouldn't need 10 more spells each day! If so, remind me not to adventure with you - it sounds dangerous. :P

mimicgogo
2004-07-29, 12:14 AM
Well, I think that it is powerful, but well deserved. The first time the class is even available is character level 10, so a character has to have put in some work to get this far. I agree that 10 extra spells may be too many, but my hopes would be that it would be used for spells the character couldn't normally cast. I dunno, perhaps I've been playing with power gamers for too long. Let me tell you, my current group(I'm DM'ing) consists of a Satyr bard, a Genasi ranger, a weretiger monk, a half-dragon(black) drow rogue, and a stone giant barbarian, all at about 13th level. Craziness I tell you. Thanks for the feedback though. Do you think I should raise the DC for the Spellcraft check to memorize spells?

mimicgogo
2004-07-29, 11:05 PM
I've adjusted some numbers, added some flavor, and made sure to include the variety of each ability. Does anybody else have any suggestions so I can adjust it before the deadline?

Ikkitosen
2004-07-30, 03:14 AM
Am I wrong in thinking that a 10th (or so) level Mimic agogo could watch the BBEG meteor swarm a village and cast that spell right back at him the following round, even though he's about 8 levels short of being this powerful? That's quite good......plus I think the miming of ex/su abilities is open to a lot of abuse from powerganmers. Still, I'd play one, they look like a lot of fun :)

Good job!

Ikki.

Fsi-Dib
2004-07-30, 03:48 AM
Um, look at those saves. They are non-basic, I wonder if this is intentious and appropiate.

And 10 mimes per day is a bit too much, as I doubt he'll encounter more than one wizard per day (unless it's some sort of wizard slaying time) and even then 5 mimes per day is enough. Trust me.

Mohko
2004-07-30, 04:53 AM
That mime spell ability is very powerful. Another PRC that gives it, the visionary seeker, gives a weaker form of it 3/day at 10th level and it can't duplicate a spell with a level higher than visionary seeker's class level.


A DC 35 Spellcraft check allows the mime to memorize the spell; a wizard can put it in his spellbook if he does so within 24 hours of miming the spell. A mimic a-go-go can use this ability twice a day at first level, and his uses increase by two every other level, to a maximum of 10/day at tenth level.

Does this include divine spells also?


Mime Feat (Su): The mimic a-go-go can learn techniques and practices used by his fellow party members. At 5th and 10th level the mime can learn a feat possessed by a fellow party member, even if he doesn’t have the prerequisites.

The bolded part does almost nothing. If you don't have the prerequisites you can't use the feat. If you mimic Power attack but your strenth is below 13 you can't use it. See PHB page 87

And as ikkitosen already mentioned, mimicing extraordinary and supernatural abilities makes this PRC munchking candy.

One more thing. Say I'm a sorcerer who enters mimics A-Go-Go. What do I lose? My familiar progwession. That's all. A wizard loses familiar progression and two feats... oh wait a minute, no he doesn't. he gains two from mime feat. Therefore this PRC is too powerful

mimicgogo
2004-07-30, 05:33 AM
Thanks for the advice guys, I modified multiple things. First off I took the suggestion of um everyone and lowered the Mime Spell's uses per day.

Second, I added Bluff as a prerequisite per a suggestion from a friend here at home.

In answer to your questions/comments Mohko, A: yes, the mime can learn divine spells, but it still doesn't give the ability to cast them. However, they are able to Mime divine spells. B: As for the feats, it's their perrogative. I don't know why somebody would choose to learn a feat they can't use, but it's the option open to the mime. And C: I know that the Mime the Supernatural and Mime the Extraordinary abilities are powerful, but since those would usually be obtained at character level 20 and 18 respectivelly, so I figure the character deserves it.

Thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming, I really do want to make this a playable PrC.

Mohko
2004-07-30, 06:35 AM
That bluff requirement forces wizards to give at least one caster level away. This is good. Sorcerers can still take this class without any serious drawbacks. If Mimic-A-Go-Go losed one caster level, sorcerers would think twice before taking this class. (But loss of one, or even two caster levels wouldn't keep the powergamer in me from entering this class.)

Vik
2004-07-30, 06:48 AM
Why Bluff ranks ?

Also, as the mimic rely on the other's abilities, he should have a restricted spellcasting progression. As the PrC is written, you could easily drop the first and last level of spellcasting.

Starbuck_II
2004-07-30, 10:50 AM
Improved Initiative (Ex): At first level the mimic a-go-go gains the improved initiative feat for free. If the mime already has the feat, he is free to choose another; all prerequisites and limits apply as normal.
What do you mean take another feat? So if you already have Improved Intiative you can get any free feat?

Zherog
2004-07-30, 01:54 PM
I'm probably gonna sound real critical as I review this (because there's a lot of power issues), so I want to say this up front. This class is awesomely original! I love the concept!!


<<snipped flavor>>

Good flavor text. Describes things well. I especially enjoyed the conversation between Crull and Quarion. ;)


Hit Die: *d4.

Requirements
*
To qualify to become a Mimic A-Go-Go, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
* * *
Skills: Bluff 13 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks, Spellcraft 13 ranks.

Feats: Any Metamagic.

Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells.

The hit die is good.

Be aware that these requirements are going to force a Wizard to multiclass - that's the only way he'd be able to gain 13 ranks in Bluff before going epic. Sorcerers can get in here pretty easy. Bards can get in easily, too, but they'd have to wait until character level 13 (that's when they get 5th level spells).


Class Skills

The mimic a-go-go's class skills are any which they had as class skills previously. *For example, if Gregory had been a wizard previous to taking mimic a-go-go levels, the wizard skill set would be available to him. *If he had also had rogue levels, both wizard and rogue skills would be feasible for him to put ranks in.

Skill Points at Each Level: *4+Int modifier.

Interesting. One thing, you're really boosting the number of skill points a wizard or sorcerer will gain per level. Along with all the ass kicking abilities they gain, this might be too much. I think I'd drop that back to 2 + int mod.


<<snipped the table>>

As has been pointed out, your save progressions aren't "normal." You'll need to correct that.


Mime Spell (Su): <<snipped text>>

This is too good, as writen - for two reasons.

First, it allows an 11th level caster (sorcerer 10/MGG 1) to cast ninth level spells. That's too much. I'd recommend adding a clause that says the MGG must be able to normally cast spells of that level to mimic it.

Second, this ability (as it's worded) allows a wizard to add any and all Divine spells to his spell book? You're a wizard and you want to learn Heal? No problem - ask your cleric buddy to cast it, then add it to your spell book. And there are spells far more abusable than Heal that I would take advantage of as a wizard.


Improved Initiative (Ex): *At first level the mimic a-go-go gains the improved initiative feat for free. *If the mime already has the feat, he is free to choose another; all prerequisites and limits apply as normal.

While I like seeing contingencies on abilities for when the character already has that ability, this might be too good. Rather than allowing the character to select any feat, I'd recommend you either give a list (a short one), or simply increase the benefit of Improved Initiative. I'd recommend the latter, and grant an extra +2.


Fast Movement (Ex): <<snipped>> *

Does this stack with the fast movement of a barbarian or monk? How does it interact with Boots of Striding and Springing?


Mime Skill (Su): <<snipped>>

Nice ability. There's one ramification you need to be aware of. Supernatural abilities are suppressed in an antimagic field. That's going to have some wonky effects on this ability when you try to figure out exactly what happens. I'd suggest changing it to Extraordinairy instead.


Speedy Movement (Ex): *At 3rd level a mimic a-go-go becomes innately faster, earning a permanent +2 bonus to his dexterity score. *

This fits with this ability, along with the fast movement (and to a lesser extent the Improved Initiative feat). What about the Mimic indicates they're speedier than others? Why do they gain movement bonuses, dex bonuses, etc? Granting an unnamed +2 to a stat is really powerful. The normal cap on a stat over 20 levels (using core only) is 36. You're pushing that boundary by allowing this.


Mime Feat (Su): *The mimic a-go-go can learn techniques and practices used by his fellow party members. *At 5th and 10th level the mime can learn a feat possessed by a fellow party member, even if he doesn’t have the prerequisites. *

Well, Mohko pointed out a potential loophole here, but I don't think it really applies. Othereise, a low-dex Ranger could never use the two-weapon fighting feats he receives for free, which have the same clause.

This is really powerful. A character can gain a powerful feat like Spring Attack or Whirlwind Attack and not pay any of the costs associated with it. In fact, I'd have to say this is just too good.

One balancing factor is the Mimic would lose access to the feat while in an antimagic area, as it's a Supernatural ability. That's probably too limiting a factor, though. I think a more balanced ability would be to allow them to use that feat for a limited number of rounds per day. Even that might be too good, though.


Mime Ability (Su): For one round the mimic a-go-go can use an attack or skill, calculating the modifiers as if he had the ability modifier of somebody around him. *For example, if Franklin wants to break a door he can mime the 18 strength of his ally Crull for the purposes of one check. *This ability is usable a number of times per day equal the number of mimic a-go-go levels.

This is a much better balanced mimic ability. It's limited to a certain number of rounds/uses per day.


Mime the Extraordinary (Su): <<snipped>>

Mime the Supernatural (Su): <<snipped>>

Even with the limits of 10 rounds per day and 5 rounds per day, these two abilities are incredibly broken. Some examples:

The Feed ability of the Barghest is Supernatural. It can completely destroy a soul and grant permanent hit dice, strength, constitution and natural armor boosts.
The Breath Weapon of a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon is a Supernatural ability. It deals 24d10 damage, with a save of 41.
The Regeneration ability of the Tarrasque is a extraordinairy ability. Basically, you can't die.
The Dominate ability of the Vampire is a Supernatural ability. Have your own little army of fully subjugated followers.

I can find dozens more abuses if given time. These were off the top of my head (though I looked them up in the SRD to verify).

***

Like I said at the top, I know it sounds as though I'm really slamming you - and that's not what I wanted. Your class is incredibly creative; unfortunately, it's also got several seriously powerful loopholes. Some of the earlier ones (like Mimic Spell) aren't too hard to fix, but I'm not sure how to fix the last two. I'll ponder, though.

Starbuck_II
2004-07-30, 04:48 PM
Mime Spell (Su): The mimic a-go-go can mentally copy any spell that sees and cast it as his own the next turn. *Anytime a spell is cast in sight of the mime, he can store the spell until his next turn and cast it, choosing the target and specifications. *The mime must be able to hear any verbal components and see any somatic components. *A DC 35 Spellcraft check allows the mime to memorize the spell; a wizard can put it in his spellbook if he does so within 24 hours of miming the spell. *A mimic a-go-go can use this ability once a day at first level, and his uses increase by one every other level, to a maximum of 5/day at tenth level.


I'd make a special note only affects arcane spells. You could gain some divine spells that bard can cast if you mimic a bard i guess.



Feats: Any Metamagic.

Either say 1 metamagic feat or pick a feat for them. Any sounds vague but its just me i bet.

I'd take away the 1st and last +1 +1 level of existing class. You could leave the 1st and take away the seconnd or something.
It seems to give too much spell power to me with all those abilities.



The mimic a-go-go's class skills are any which they had as class skills previously. *For example, if Gregory had been a wizard previous to taking mimic a-go-go levels, the wizard skill set would be available to him. *If he had also had rogue levels, both wizard and rogue skills would be feasible for him to put ranks in.

Skill Points at Each Level: *4+Int modifier.

You give too much class skills. Leave the 4+Int but lower the class skills. Maybe make them choose 4 class skills to be this class. (nice option) or put down some.
I say leave the 4+ Int: 2 reasons. One mimic should be able to learn fast. Second Mime skill makes a skill a class skill.



Mime the Extraordinary (Su): For up to 10 rounds per day a mimic a-go-go can use the extraordinary abilities of a creature he touched within the past 24 hours.
I think you should make it have to be humanoid to mimic it. After all you can't swallow whole or feed with out special jaws or size.
Or make it work only on creatures with same HD or lower.(that way unless you have same HD as a "Great Wyrm Gold Dragon " you can't mimic it)

I think either would help balance this but I think Option 2 does best.

Same for the Mimic Supernatural: either humanoid only or your HD limit.

mimicgogo
2004-07-30, 09:32 PM
Awesome, thanks for the suggestions, I modified it some more. I took most of the advice given, and if I didn't, I'll tell you why.

First, I did lower the skills to 2+Int, as well as make the Fortitude save a "bad" save.

Next, I put a clause in Mime Spell, limiting the learnable spells to ones on the characters previous spell list. I realize that this is easily cheated by taking a druid or cleric level, but since a wizard already needs to multiclass, they would have to spread their levels pretty thin, and not even earn the higher levels of the PrC until they were epic.

I took Zherog's advice regarding the Improved Initiative feat, giving a character with the feat already an additional +2. I also changed Mime Skill's type to Extraordinary.

I added some flavor at the top to help explain the speed boosting abilities, although it's not much. The point is that they are mimics a-go-go, becoming adept at working quickly.

I took away the first and last spell levels to help balance things out, and I also adressed the Fast Movement issue; characters earn either the Run or Dash feat if they already have it.

On to things I didnt change, like Mime Feat. I agree that the ability to take Spring Attack or Whirlwind Attack without the prerequisites is strong, but think about it, this is a magic based PrC. What's a wizard going to do with Whirlwind Attack anyway? He could swipe at everybody with his staff, but it's unlikely he would hit. And if a smart character uses that in conjunction with his other mime abilities, more power to them.

Lastly Mime the Extraordinary and Supernatural. Yes, I realize that these are incredibly powerful abilities, but one of the key parts of the ability is that it must be of a creature touched. How likely is it that you can get your wizard to mosey on up and touch the terrasque without him getting knocked to the next continent? I considered the HD adjustment, but I decided not to; like I said before, assuming a character starts taking mime a-go-go levels at 11th character level, they wont get these abilities until 18th and 20th character level, and that means they're almost epic, and there are much more powerful epic abilities.

I don't mean to sound all defensive, although I'm sure that's how this comes off, but I truly do appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions, so thanks everybody.

Zherog
2004-07-31, 12:16 AM
I don't mean to sound all defensive, although I'm sure that's how this comes off, but I truly do appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions, so thanks everybody.

It's all good, MGG. You don't sound defensive to me, at least. ;)

mimicgogo
2004-07-31, 10:25 PM
That's good, I wouldn't want to have to destroy you all.......I mean uh, thanks again for all the help everybody. Good luck to all in the [ominous thunder]judging[/ominous thunder].