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Oslecamo
2009-01-06, 07:44 PM
Woot new comic up! And my prevision was right, Hamster is joining the fray!

Hmm, also seems like there's combat spells available. However, if they were usefull, why didn't Wanda use them? perhaps because she didn't receive orders to do so.

Anyway, it seems like Hamster sill has a sizeable force. With the hit and retreat tactics, they may wear down the coalition enough to heal at dawn and then follow up with a deadly counter attack.

Yuki Akuma
2009-01-06, 07:46 PM
So. That Eager Elf in the last panel is wielding the Master Sword.

I wonder if that's a magic weapon or if it's just the basic Eager Elf swordsman weapon.

Scylfing
2009-01-06, 07:51 PM
Exactly as planned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5598289&postcount=16). :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2009-01-06, 07:52 PM
I think it's actually the four sword. :smalltongue: There's other colored elfs behind him at least.

But since it isn't shiny then it isn't a fully awakened Master Sword, so probably standard combat gear, in homage to some ancient elvish who reapears trough the ages. Young elvish warriors don the typical green clothes, sword and shield to prove their bravery in the field of battle:smallbiggrin:

Tar Palantir
2009-01-06, 07:53 PM
First time I've had a new comic while I'm on the forum in a long time. Ah the memories...

I too am curious about Wanda's "private stash". Hmm....

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 07:56 PM
Whoo-hooo! Eager elves!

Somehow I don't see the schlemiel elves being so eager.

And there's the ruthlessness showing: Parson considers whether to let Wanda die in order to have Sizemore help defend the walls. And now he's off to lead the battle, presumably abandoning the tower since he'd be bound to lose it to the archons--though who knows but that he may have some plan to deal with them now that Charlie has re-allied himself with the RCC.

I love the panels with the KISS and the Uncroaked Warlords (Archduke Ferdinand and Ensign Toast) waiting for battle.

Oslecamo
2009-01-06, 08:17 PM
Wow, did anyone noticed those oldest warlords have only one arm each? How long are they gonna hold themselves in that poor state?:smalleek:

Nemo2342
2009-01-06, 08:25 PM
Wow, did anyone noticed those oldest warlords have only one arm each? How long are they gonna hold themselves in that poor state?:smalleek:

Long enough, I hope.

Fjolnir
2009-01-06, 08:33 PM
here we go, parson opens the bag 'o tricks and starts to lay down the pain on the RCC by hand, which is probably the most forshadowed event in this arc

Varthonai
2009-01-06, 08:36 PM
I've been rereading everything since Stanley first left with all the Dwagons.

He spent a turn flying as far away as possible, then the Coalition spent a turn getting into position to ambush him. Then Stanley flew into their ambush and flew back out again, so at the end of that turn he was in the same spot he'd been in at the start--which was one turn's worth of Dwagon flight from Gobwin Knob. Which means he should arrive back at the Knob at the start of his next turn.

With Charlie as a new side, an Erfworld day should run like this:

1. Charlie
2. Gobwin Knob
3. Coalition
4. Charlie
5. Gobwin Knob
6. Coalition
7. Night, no fighting
8. Repeat.

Unless I've miscalculated (which I may very well have, every time I read about the turn-based day I seem to spot an inconsistency) we are at stage 3 on that list right now. I don't think Ansom could have croaked more than a few dozen of Parson's Uncroaked troops during his little one-man wall raid, judging from the speed at which he seemed to be croaking them and the time it took for Wanda and the fliers to make him knock it off; that means Parson's still got almost three thousand Uncroaked troops. Plus a good few Spidews, the Knights, and whatever Gobwins are left. And the Spidews and Knights and Gobwins have probably leveled up quite a bit from croaking all those Jetstones and Marbits. (Non-Warlord units can level up too, right? I mean, they must. Stanley didn't start as a Warlord but he seems to have leveled up quite a bit.) So, yeah, with all of that combined... plus the Croakamancer bonus if they heal Wanda fast enough, plus whatever bonus Parson and the sword give... I don't see Ansom conquering Gobwin Knob's garrison, at least not in the remainder of this turn.

The bigger issue is Charlie's turn. I don't think Parson can fight his way out of that one, but he might be able to sweet-talk Charlie into inaction again.

And if all goes according to plan, Stanley shows up as soon as Charlie ends turn and blows Charlie out of the Airspace before he knows what hit him. Combined Dwagons and Uncroaked forces should be enough to make the Coalition retreat, hopefully.

Aquillion
2009-01-06, 08:48 PM
I've been rereading everything since Stanley first left with all the Dwagons.

He spent a turn flying as far away as possible, then the Coalition spent a turn getting into position to ambush him. Then Stanley flew into their ambush and flew back out again, so at the end of that turn he was in the same spot he'd been in at the start--which was one turn's worth of Dwagon flight from Gobwin Knob. Which means he should arrive back at the Knob at the start of his next turn.

With Charlie as a new side, an Erfworld day should run like this:

1. Charlie
2. Gobwin Knob
3. Coalition
4. Charlie
5. Gobwin Knob
6. Coalition
7. Night, no fighting
8. Repeat.

Unless I've miscalculated (which I may very well have, every time I read about the turn-based day I seem to spot an inconsistency)You have. I don't have the link here, but Word of God specifically says that allying with the coalition means that Charlie shares their turn -- the turn order at the moment is:

1. Coalition,
2. Gobwin Knob,
3. Night, no fighting
4. Repeat.

(Technically, though, Translvito is still not part of the coalition... I think.)


We are on step one, and Gobwin Knob gets the next turn in any case.

Alex Knight
2009-01-06, 08:48 PM
Charlie's part of the RCC again. His turn is subsumed into theirs.

memnarch
2009-01-06, 08:57 PM
You have. I don't have the link here, but Word of God specifically says that allying with the coalition means that Charlie shares their turn -- the turn order at the moment is:

1. Coalition,
2. Gobwin Knob,
3. Night, no fighting
4. Repeat.

(Technically, though, Translvito is still not part of the coalition... I think.)


We are on step one, and Gobwin Knob gets the next turn in any case.

Wasn't the turn order for this day
1. Charlie
2. Gobwin Knob
3. Coalition
4. Night

?

HPV
2009-01-06, 09:00 PM
I've been rereading everything since Stanley first left with all the Dwagons.

He spent a turn flying as far away as possible, then the Coalition spent a turn getting into position to ambush him. Then Stanley flew into their ambush and flew back out again, so at the end of that turn he was in the same spot he'd been in at the start--which was one turn's worth of Dwagon flight from Gobwin Knob. Which means he should arrive back at the Knob at the start of his next turn.

With Charlie as a new side, an Erfworld day should run like this:

1. Charlie
2. Gobwin Knob
3. Coalition
4. Charlie
5. Gobwin Knob
6. Coalition
7. Night, no fighting
8. Repeat.

Unless I've miscalculated (which I may very well have, every time I read about the turn-based day I seem to spot an inconsistency) we are at stage 3 on that list right now. I don't think Ansom could have croaked more than a few dozen of Parson's Uncroaked troops during his little one-man wall raid, judging from the speed at which he seemed to be croaking them and the time it took for Wanda and the fliers to make him knock it off; that means Parson's still got almost three thousand Uncroaked troops. Plus a good few Spidews, the Knights, and whatever Gobwins are left. And the Spidews and Knights and Gobwins have probably leveled up quite a bit from croaking all those Jetstones and Marbits. (Non-Warlord units can level up too, right? I mean, they must. Stanley didn't start as a Warlord but he seems to have leveled up quite a bit.) So, yeah, with all of that combined... plus the Croakamancer bonus if they heal Wanda fast enough, plus whatever bonus Parson and the sword give... I don't see Ansom conquering Gobwin Knob's garrison, at least not in the remainder of this turn.

The bigger issue is Charlie's turn. I don't think Parson can fight his way out of that one, but he might be able to sweet-talk Charlie into inaction again.

And if all goes according to plan, Stanley shows up as soon as Charlie ends turn and blows Charlie out of the Airspace before he knows what hit him. Combined Dwagons and Uncroaked forces should be enough to make the Coalition retreat, hopefully.

Now that Charlies allied to the RCC, he goes on their turn not his (as theirs is the later in the day). So, even if he can't come up with a plan for croaking them on his turn, his troops will at least be healed (& Stanley may have turned up) before he has to worry about the archons attacking.

EDIT: beaten to it! Darn my drunken typing skills (or lack thereof) *shrug*

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-06, 09:00 PM
1) Charlie
2) Transylvito + Jillian (Might be before charlie, but not important to the story at this point)
3) GK
4) RC Coalition ('Now' as of Page 128)

5) Night

6) Transylvito + Jillian
7) GK
8) RCC + Charlie

9) Night Again
...

Charlie took his turn before Parson had breakfast this morning.
Then Charlie ended turn in the hopes of getting bonus artifacts.
Then Sizemore sallied and pwned Webinar in the tunnels before sealing up.
Wanda animated the dead, and they deployed to the walls.

Now Ansom and co are attacking the outer walls zone, and the GK forces are falling back.

Lamech
2009-01-06, 09:48 PM
You have. I don't have the link here, but Word of God specifically says that allying with the coalition means that Charlie shares their turn -- the turn order at the moment is:

1. Coalition,
2. Gobwin Knob,
3. Night, no fighting
4. Repeat.
Erm... GK comes first so it goes
1) Night
2) Trans
3) GK
4) Coalition
5)Return to step one.


Secondly, pwn them all Parson! I think this is a pretty good tactic, Parson's units should all get to fight and still buff the garrison walls. And this time I'm sure Parson won't let it be so weak, gaurded by only helpless undead.


Hmm, also seems like there's combat spells available. However, if they were usefull, why didn't Wanda use them? perhaps because she didn't receive orders to do so.
Because she could beat him im melee.

Oh yeah, one left-field prediction for ending. Ansom mistakes the stat-less Parson for an illusion meant to scare people. Dives for Wanda and promptly gets stabbed in the back.

jazz1m
2009-01-06, 09:51 PM
Finally Parson actually goes into combat. I think he's starting to take this a bit more seriously now and not thinking as much in terms of "gaming". What's going to happen though?

Stanley should be on his way back so hopefully the attack and retreat ploy will keep Ansom's men busy til GK's next turn. Maybe we actually learn what the "special" means on Parson's stats?

As for Wanda, well hopefully they can heal her, but maybe this is going to be her last dying breath. I can almost see her refusing the heal spell and saying that Parson should stay stocked on them (his tactical mind and skill are what's keeping them alive). But hey, who knows.

A fact I've been considering since I first heard about the pliers (forgive me if it's been stated) but perhaps even in its unattuned form it has two side effects, much like the Arkenhammer

Arkenhammer can: Turn walnuts into pigeons (on the third or fourth hit)
Turn Orlys into walnuts as seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0126.html)

purely based on speculation and this direct correlation
Arkenpliers can: Turn uncroaked to dust
Kind of opposite, but not really: Heal the living?
(In a lot of games, a priest can kill zombies or undead hordes by using Heal)

Aquillion
2009-01-06, 09:53 PM
Arkenhammer can: Turn walnuts into pigeons (on the third or fourth hit)
Turn Orlys into walnuts as seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0126.html)Technically it's already an illusion at that point (notice the bats nearby.) So we don't know whether it can actually do that or not -- it might just be Jack's theatrics. It's not like Jillian would know exactly what the Arkenhammer does, either.

Varthonai
2009-01-06, 09:54 PM
I'm pretty sure that Gobwin Knob is supposed to get the first turn of the day unless a new side (such as unemployed Charlie) is brought into play. That's why Bogroll was surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html) when dawn came and it wasn't their turn.

On the other hand... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0007.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0009.html) we see the Coalition getting two turns in a row: the last turn of one day and the first turn of the next day. Does turn order change from day to day? Is there some kind of initiative system for determining turn order on a given day? Gah, confused. :smallfrown:

jazz1m
2009-01-06, 09:55 PM
Technically it's already an illusion at that point (notice the bats nearby.) So we don't know whether it can actually do that or not -- it might just be Jack's theatrics. It's not like Jillian would know exactly what the Arkenhammer does, either.

Seemed like that was Stanley saying is that a walnut and not Jillian.

Lamech
2009-01-06, 10:00 PM
No it was an illusion saying "Is that a walnut?" I really wish we had another caster to compare from FAQ...

Oslecamo
2009-01-06, 10:03 PM
As for Wanda, well hopefully they can heal her, but maybe this is going to be her last dying breath. I can almost see her refusing the heal spell and saying that Parson should stay stocked on them (his tactical mind and skill are what's keeping them alive). But hey, who knows.


Not very probable, since Wanda is a VERY valuable unit. Specially because she gives fat bonus to uncroackeds, and they need that bonus if they want to hold the coalition off. And we also saw she's more than capable than holding her own weight in battle.

So, she's much more usefull alive than croacked.

SteveMB
2009-01-06, 10:04 PM
On the other hand... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0007.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0009.html) we see the Coalition getting two turns in a row: the last turn of one day and the first turn of the next day. Does turn order change from day to day? Is there some kind of initiative system for determining turn order on a given day? Gah, confused. :smallfrown:

The second one has no indication of what time of day it is; the simplest explanation is that the scene of Jillian's departure takes place the next afternoon and Gobwin Knob's turn that day is completely uneventful or was shown out of order (the initial discussion between Wanda and Stanley about the summoning spell, perhaps?) in order to make the initial exposition work better.

jazz1m
2009-01-06, 10:06 PM
No it was an illusion saying "Is that a walnut?" I really wish we had another caster to compare from FAQ...
Right after I posted my response to you, I realized what you were trying to say.
Still, would be an interesting dichotomy no? Two sides effects for every arkentool (attunement power not included)
Oslecamo: Nah, I know she'll probably get healed, it's just nice to bandy around ideas. I did say almost :smallsmile:

rman
2009-01-06, 10:11 PM
On the other hand... here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0007.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0009.html) we see the Coalition getting two turns in a row: the last turn of one day and the first turn of the next day. Does turn order change from day to day? Is there some kind of initiative system for determining turn order on a given day? Gah, confused. :smallfrown:

Turn order is

Charlie. Transylvito. Gobwin. Coallition.
(not sure if Chalie is before or after Transylvito).

It is fixed unless allied. When Charlie and Transylvito were allied with the Coallition they moved on the Coallitions turn. Jillian got to move twice between Gobwin turns by

0. Gobwin's Turn
1. Moving with the Coallition.
2. Breaking the alliance with Coalliation. Allying with Transylvitio Ending turn.
3. Night
4. Moving with Tranylvitio
5. Gobwins Turn

DrivinAllNight
2009-01-06, 10:22 PM
In the beginning of the strip Stanley was in his tower turning walnuts into Orly's, and Jacks Illusion did the opposite, So the hammer does do some strange things, the pliers may very well have some strange unknown alter power
I got dial up so it is hard to search the back issues for the link. sorry


EDIT: here is the link -
Start Here and go through the next two in order :) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html)

Whispri
2009-01-06, 10:25 PM
And in pour the arrow fodder. Although if they're actually willing to follow Ansom...

Oldest Uncroaked Warlords must surely mean they have more.

Private Stash = Very Interesting. Uncroaking Spells for when she runs out of juice perhaps?

SteveMB
2009-01-06, 10:40 PM
And in pour the arrow fodder. Although if they're actually willing to follow Ansom...

Oldest Uncroaked Warlords must surely mean they have more.

They had five (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0027.html), and lost three in the battle over the lake. (They briefly had Webinar and Dora, but lost them too in this battle.) The currently remaining ones (Archduke Ferdinand and Ensign Toast) were among the older and more decayed ones.

The only way they could have any others is if there were other warlords in the tunnel incursion forces. If so, I expect that they'll be purely incidental and probably short-"lived"; if they exist and have any significance in the story it was a bit of a glitch not to mention them earlier.


And there's the ruthlessness showing: Parson considers whether to let Wanda die in order to have Sizemore help defend the walls.

I can imagine the expression on Sizemore's face (and the tone of his subvocalized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0033.html) voice) when he asks what Parson's orders are.... :smalleek:

fendrin
2009-01-06, 10:44 PM
OK, to clarify, now that Charlie is allied with the RCC the turn order is:

1. Transylvito/Faq
2. Gobwin Knob
3. RCC
-- Night

Now, we are still in the middle of the RCC turn, so presuming the RCC forces are unable to capture the garrison, it will be night then TV/Faq, then GK.

Keep in mind that it seems as if Parson is acting now, but that is only because he is defending the city.

As for Wanda's stash, they are probably not combat spells. Probably spells to assist her 'other duties'/hobbies. Healomancy, Thinkomancy, and so forth.

Parson may have lost count of his uncroaked warlords, though that would be uncharacteristic of him.

PePe QuiCoSE
2009-01-06, 10:52 PM
Bets are that she has a spell "magic bullet" that she didn't told of before :smallbiggrin:

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 10:54 PM
Ugh... maybe we should discuss turn order in a separate thread.

FoE
2009-01-06, 10:57 PM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard? Are units in Erfworld not capable of using arrows and boulders to rain down on their attackers?

Oh, and good call, Scyfling.

Whispri
2009-01-06, 10:59 PM
They had five (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0027.html), and lost three in the battle over the lake. (They briefly had Webinar and Dora, but lost them too in this battle.) The currently remaining ones (Archduke Ferdinand and Ensign Toast) were among the older and more decayed ones.

The only way they could have any others is if there were other warlords in the tunnel incursion forces. If so, I expect that they'll be purely incidental and probably short-"lived"; if they exist and have any significance in the story it was a bit of a glitch not to mention them earlier.
Parson didn't say both the Warlords. Which surely means yes, the leadership Sizemore kept hitting in the tunnels involved more than just the two Croaked on screen. There must have been at least one Marbit Warlord for a start.

As for incidental, well Webinar was the Warlord Commanding so they must be weaker than him.

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 10:59 PM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard? Are units in Erfworld not capable of using arrows and boulders to rain down on their attackers?

Oh, and good call, Scyfling.

We haven't seen the uncroaked infantry use much or any ranged attacks. Their value seems to be as cannon fodder.

Or think about it this way: they only get a few shots from those uncroaked who can be on both sides of the gap in the outer walls. At most, that'll only occupy a tiny fraction of the apparently thousands of uncroaked.

charles
2009-01-06, 11:24 PM
I think the turn is:

MORNING
1. Transilvito + Jillian
2. Gobwin Knob + Stanley
3. Coalition + Charlie (now joined)
NIGHT

The only people who seem to have any clue as to exactly what took place at FAQ appear to be Jack, Stanley and Wanda. I'm betting their finally going to find out exactly what happened to FAQ and why Wanda and Jack are willingly helping Stanley the Plaid. I just can't believe that Stanley has the forsight to overthrow Sailine IV, take out FAQ and convince a few of it's members to join him.

Jack, Stanley and the Dwagons might be able to help in the fight depending on how many turns it takes them to get back (remember that the dwagons had already used up some move to return to Gobwin Knob on the first turn that Stanley flew out so they might get back at the end of their next turn).

Even with Stanley and the Dwagons, they don't stand a chance. The only hope they have is if members of the coalition turn on Ansome or Transilvito and Jillian do the same. But now we also have to wonder exactly what Charlie demanded of Stanley and I'm betting that will also play a significant part in this.

Hatu
2009-01-06, 11:34 PM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard? Are units in Erfworld not capable of using arrows and boulders to rain down on their attackers?


According to Klog 11, the Courtyard (part of the Garrison) can only be attacked from the Outer Walls if the Garrison walls have also been breached. I don't think that's happened yet.

My guess would be that the top of the walls and the ground behind them are two different sub-zones of the Outer Wall zone. Since the Outer Wall zone must be totally controlled before Ansom could go on to attack the Garrison, Parson must feel he's better off defending the Outer Walls from the ground. That does seem to imply that, for whatever reason, he cannot simply rain death down on the coalition forces.

-H

Varthonai
2009-01-06, 11:37 PM
The second one has no indication of what time of day it is; the simplest explanation is that the scene of Jillian's departure takes place the next afternoon and Gobwin Knob's turn that day is completely uneventful or was shown out of order (the initial discussion between Wanda and Stanley about the summoning spell, perhaps?) in order to make the initial exposition work better.

Yeah that's what I thought but it's all pretty set in chronological order.

At dawn, Jillian sets off and ends turn in the trees where she croaked the Twoll and three Uncroaked Infantry. When the scene cuts to Gobwin Knob's turn, we could assume it's out of order except that Stanley clearly says "She ended turn in the trees, and I pulled together a flight of dwagons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0024.html)"; Gobwin Knob's turn had to come AFTER Jillian moved, and there was no night in between.



Turn order is

Charlie. Transylvito. Gobwin. Coallition.
(not sure if Chalie is before or after Transylvito).

It is fixed unless allied. When Charlie and Transylvito were allied with the Coallition they moved on the Coallitions turn. Jillian got to move twice between Gobwin turns by

0. Gobwin's Turn
1. Moving with the Coallition.
2. Breaking the alliance with Coalliation. Allying with Transylvitio Ending turn.
3. Night
4. Moving with Tranylvitio
5. Gobwins Turn

That makes a little more sense to me... but Transylvito wasn't involved at that point, was it? I mean, apart from Vinny. I thought they didn't get involved until Stanley tried to flee to Faq.

That would explain why Bogroll expected their turn to be the first of the day, too, since at that point Transylvito and Charlie really WERE allied with the Coalition.

Maybe it's something like this: whichever side became involved in the fight most recently comes earliest in the day. That would explain why Unemployed Charlie had first turn of the day; that was the first time he was involved in the Battle for Gobwin Knob as anything other than a part of the Coalition. It would also explain why Transylvito was able to move troops into place before Stanley's turn...

Most importantly, though, it would help explain this early scenario with Jillian being up and at 'em before the Coalition turn. She wouldn't have to split off and ally with anyone; she's a Barbarian, so she could split off and form her own side. Which, by the "most-recent-side-first" rule, would come first in the day and therefore make sense. w00t, sense.

I still don't feel completely ok with this, though. You'd think that she and Ansom would have discussed the whole split-off rejoin-later thing in their little scouting debate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html). You could argue that it's just common sense for native Erfworlders and doesn't need to be said aloud, but then, so is the whole spiel about why they can't have good field intel without Lookamancers.


My bad if someone's already suggested and / or done this, but would it be a good idea to try and make a timeline of the turns that have passed during the course of the story and the major events during those turns? First two days might be like this, for instance:


[Gobwin Knob] Turn 1, Day 1: Battle of Warchalking results in Coalition victory. Manpower croaks, Wanda uncroaks him. Wanda suggests purchase of Summon Warlord spell.
[Coalition] Turn 2, Day 1: Jillian returns to the main Coalition column. She breaks alliance with the Coalition in order to get an early turn on Day 2.
[Barbarians] Turn 1, Day 2: Jillian croaks three Uncroaked infantry and a Twoll.
[Gobwin Knob] Turn 2, Day 2: Stanley captures Jillian. Wanda purchases the Summon spell in the Magic Kingdom. Sizemore and Wanda return to the Knob from the Magic Kingdom. Wanda casts the Summon spell and summons Parson.
[Coalition] Turn 3, Day 2: The main column advances as far as possible in one turn without spreading itself too thin (i.e. fast units too far ahead and slow units too far behind.) However, the revelation that Jillian has been captured convinces Ansom to send fast flying units ahead and to hire Charlie so that he can prepare for a rescue mission.

Etc.

Maybe in a separate thread?

x1372
2009-01-06, 11:38 PM
A part of me really wishes that we hadn't had the big explanation about the different garrison sections, or at least not until after this page. It made the fact that they were going to be in for a desperation attempt to hold the dungeon almost a given.

On the other hand, Nice to see Parson doing the right thing, making the calculations, setting up a battle plan, and keeping his head on straight. Plenty of gamers would give up after watching so much go against them that they couldn't control.

Varthonai
2009-01-06, 11:41 PM
Plenty of gamers would give up after watching so much go against them that they couldn't control.

Plenty of gamers aren't literally fighting for their lives.

DevilDan
2009-01-06, 11:50 PM
On the other hand, Nice to see Parson doing the right thing, making the calculations, setting up a battle plan, and keeping his head on straight. Plenty of gamers would give up after watching so much go against them that they couldn't control.

Well, we've actually never seen him out of control.

Saladman
2009-01-07, 01:05 AM
I just want to tell the author and artist that this page specifically, and this comic strip in general, is a thing of beauty, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in print someday. Thanks, guys.

The occasional "well, this update didn't do much for me" posts miss the point: we wouldn't get the reveal without the setup or the advancement. Comparing to daily strips, I conclude that having a "punchline" every strip must cost something in terms of story development, and apparently the creators get that.

slurpz
2009-01-07, 01:05 AM
Seems like the uncroaked are smart enough to understand more complex battle tactics. :smallsmile:

Noemz
2009-01-07, 01:07 AM
There's still only a small breach in the wall, and that makes it dangerous for the RCC troops coming through; only a small number of them would be able to fight at a time if they were engaged right at that breach.

I wouldn't deploy the GK forces in the courtyard waiting for the onslaught; they're allowing the enemy time and room to squeeze through that gap and then overwhelm them by sheer weight of numbers.

I'd put a couple of rock golems at the breach, or maybe even get Sizemore to create a pit for the RCC to fall straight into. Won't hold them back forever, but it would certainly slow their progress.

Saladman
2009-01-07, 01:13 AM
Seems like the uncroaked are smart enough to understand more complex battle tactics. :smallsmile:

As long as they've got a live thinkamancer to monitor in realtime. Be interesting to see how much use Parson could get out of them without Maggie. Except that I want Parson to win and want to see how Maggie develops (since she's apparently loyal and useful, but must have a ruthless streak to make her link partners take the backlash), so strike that.

Fjolnir
2009-01-07, 01:45 AM
I wonder how the 3'5"-4'0" 120-140lb (a fair guess given the dimensions of the doorways/ceilings Erfians might be a tad shorter than that in fact) people of the world who haven't seen him will react to 5'10" 235lbs (at least, he might be fatter but I doubt he's over 300) of parson coming at them sword in hand, don't forget, NOBODY on the RCC has seen him outside of thinkagram besides charlie and he's not talking. I hope he kinda flails about and the sword basically does the fighting, rather than genuine competance.

Scylfing
2009-01-07, 02:05 AM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard? Are units in Erfworld not capable of using arrows and boulders to rain down on their attackers?

Oh, and good call, Scyfling.

My patron deity is The Red Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Knight_(Forgotten_Realms)). :smallbiggrin:

And yeah, as DevilDan said we haven't seen the uncroaked forces using ranged weapons, but even if they did it's still wise to pull them off the walls to slow the coalition's advance through the breach (I'd save the archers for the courtyard defense). They should do a good amount of damage through attack-retreat-redeployment, and though this would also result in high casualties for them they have a low shelf life anyway. At this point it's all about buying time, so if the coalition has to spend time (and units) killing every single uncroaked until they can get to the garrison walls that's more time for Parson to prepare.

(Well maybe not every single uncroaked, if the wounded are pulled back and can survive until Wanda is healed that would be huge for the garrison defense.)

FoE
2009-01-07, 02:06 AM
Heh. It just occurred to me that the Uncroaked warlord is also a dead ringer for Stalfos. (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Stalfos) Which makes it all the more appropriate that he's fighting an elf that looks like Link ... :smallwink:

Bawon von Howse
2009-01-07, 02:07 AM
the natural inference of Parson saying 'the oldest uncroaked warlords' is that there are more than the just the two oldest uncroaked warlords remaining

...it would seem like this is going to become some kind of 'hot-gates' for the RCC as their massively overpowering force has to come in through a small breach, fighting a line of warriors that continually recycles as it takes damage...I can see that there will be massive elf casualties, whilst Parson's troops regroup in the garrison.

one can only presume that the RCC will need to get their siege engines back on the case to break the Garrison wall to reach the courtyard

This stand inside the inner walls is merely to bloody the RCC nose further as Parson retreats back to the garrison!

Altima
2009-01-07, 02:20 AM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard? Are units in Erfworld not capable of using arrows and boulders to rain down on their attackers?


GK has less than 200 archers, if I recall correctly. No idea where they are, possibly on the garrison walls to snipe at the concentration of troops going through the breach.

The reason the units were on the walls in the first place was A) to intimidate the RCC forces with the visage of their own massively massacred minions (alliteration is fun) and B) to 'convince' the RCC of the folly of using siege towers to transport troops on the wall when even Uncroaked could knock them from the scaffolding.

Decius
2009-01-07, 02:20 AM
Arkenhammer: Turns walnuts into pigeons, and orlies into walnuts.
Arkenpliers: Turn undead into dust, and dust into...

Dragonath
2009-01-07, 02:45 AM
Awesome comic, beat that all of you whiners !

This is where the real fight for GK begins imo, the last stand. Epic.

Nice little detail: The KISS Knight choking that Elf with one hand and lifting it up ready to stab it in the face.

dr pepper
2009-01-07, 02:50 AM
In wargame mechanics, no structure is "taken" until there are no effective enemy left. So as long as there's even one zombie left capable of waving its remaining arm, the coalition can move past the walls. Likewise to move from the tower to dungeon. That will soak up a lot of attackers.

Dragonath
2009-01-07, 02:52 AM
w00t, 2 twoll heavies standing in the front part of Parson's army there. Can't wait to see them in battle !

SmallFurryMamml
2009-01-07, 03:05 AM
I wonder how the 3'5"-4'0" 120-140lb (a fair guess given the dimensions of the doorways/ceilings Erfians might be a tad shorter than that in fact) people of the world who haven't seen him will react to 5'10" 235lbs (at least, he might be fatter but I doubt he's over 300) of parson coming at them sword in hand, don't forget, NOBODY on the RCC has seen him outside of thinkagram besides charlie and he's not talking. I hope he kinda flails about and the sword basically does the fighting, rather than genuine competance.

Don't forget that he's been steadily losing weight since the start of the storyline, mainly due to stairs.

Muzzafar
2009-01-07, 03:22 AM
Yes, I have been waiting for that for so long!
I hope that when the coalition troops do see Parson he will indeed shock and awe them, just standing... commanding the fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0017.html).

I just want to tell the author and artist that this page specifically, and this comic strip in general, is a thing of beauty, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in print someday. Thanks, guys.
+1

Justyn
2009-01-07, 03:28 AM
the natural inference of Parson saying 'the oldest uncroaked warlords' is that there are more than the just the two oldest uncroaked warlords remaining
The wording would indicate it, because if Toast and Ferdinand were the only ones left, why would he exclude any others?


...it would seem like this is going to become some kind of 'hot-gates' for the RCC as their massively overpowering force has to come in through a small breach, fighting a line of warriors that continually recycles as it takes damage...I can see that there will be massive elf casualties, whilst Parson's troops regroup in the garrison.
Don't forget that if Wanda survives, and if the Coalition ends turn, Parson can uncroak all the casualties and maybe even go on the offensive. I wouldn't like that many "if"s if I were in Parson's shoes, but he is quickly losing options, and every place where the Coalition cedes initiative is another option open to Parson.


GK has less than 200 archers, if I recall correctly. No idea where they are, possibly on the garrison walls to snipe at the concentration of troops going through the breach.
Parson wishes he had 200 archers; last count, they had 32 according to the Stupid Meal and Maggie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html).

fractal
2009-01-07, 03:39 AM
Poor Maggie, you can see that she doesn't much care for the idea of losing the bonus the Tower provides her.

Tobz
2009-01-07, 04:56 AM
GK has less than 200 archers, if I recall correctly. No idea where they are, possibly on the garrison walls to snipe at the concentration of troops going through the breach.

The reason the units were on the walls in the first place was A) to intimidate the RCC forces with the visage of their own massively massacred minions (alliteration is fun) and B) to 'convince' the RCC of the folly of using siege towers to transport troops on the wall when even Uncroaked could knock them from the scaffolding.

He has 32 I think, but even if those were on the walls with the undead, realistically they should have caused MASSIVE casualties on RCC side. Even with Ansom making a mess up there.

But it seems to me Tool's 'toughest defensive position in the world' is rather a joke compared to how easy it would have been to turn it into an almost unbreachable fortress. I guess it suffers from a serious case of 'plot'.

TamLin
2009-01-07, 05:09 AM
I wonder how the 3'5"-4'0" 120-140lb (a fair guess given the dimensions of the doorways/ceilings Erfians might be a tad shorter than that in fact) people of the world who haven't seen him will react to 5'10" 235lbs (at least, he might be fatter but I doubt he's over 300) of parson coming at them sword in hand.


I wonder how the 3'5"-4'0" 120-140lb (a fair guess given the dimensions of the doorways/ceilings Erfians might be a tad shorter than that in fact) people of the world who haven't seen him will react to 5'10" 235lbs (at least, he might be fatter but I doubt he's over 300) of parson coming at them sword in hand.

Well, they've seen twolls before. Parson's not any bigger than Bogroll, so it's not like being a giant is neccesarily a huge novelty (although yes, it's probably going to be a surprise). I'm wondering if an Ansom vs Parson mano y mano duel is pending. Or are we holding out for Stanley vs Ansom? Although really, I wonder if Parson has it in him to actually kill people with his own hands, "Ruthlessness" or no ruthlessness.

You know, the Coalition has such a huge manpower advantage, if they win it'll be rather anticlimactic. On the other hand, since Gobwin Knob has our protagonist on its side, it'll be only slightly surprising if they win. The only way to have an ending that's not a letdown is if Something Totally Unexpected happens to end the battle. We've already got Charlie's inevitable double-cross out of the way (wouldn't have been that surprising anyway), and we already teased the idea of the Arkenpliers sudddenly attuning to someone else, so not a big surprise there either (even if it does happen). The Tool's impending return has already been telegraphed, and I'm not sure that his six remaining dwagons can turn the tide against so many Archons (unless there are more around that he didn't take with him but aren't part of the battle now, for some reason?), so other than the possibility of a hammer and pliers duel, that doesn't offer much in the way of an endgame either.

So what's that leave?

SteveD
2009-01-07, 05:42 AM
On the other hand, Nice to see Parson doing the right thing, making the calculations, setting up a battle plan, and keeping his head on straight. Plenty of gamers would give up after watching so much go against them that they couldn't control.

Not really the sort of situation where he can rage-quit. :P

Great strip. Don't know why people didn't think about purchased spells of healomancy...we've already seen her cabinet, and we know its possible to purchase spells.

Question for all those people arguing about turns; When's Stanley and Jack likely to arrive, and are Jillian and Vinnie likely to get back first? (given they seemed to get there first). Stanley spent at least 2 enemy turns with bad veils, and we've only had one enemy turn since he turned round...so I guess that means he'll be back on the GK turn after this one?

P.S, cheers to Rob and Jamie for getting the strips out so quickly lately, despite the forum bitching.

Generalissimus
2009-01-07, 05:49 AM
I hope Parson will get finally into the whole history behind the rise of Stanley...

The Minx
2009-01-07, 05:50 AM
the natural inference of Parson saying 'the oldest uncroaked warlords' is that there are more than the just the two oldest uncroaked warlords remaining

There are probably some low-level uncroaked warlords among the thousands of fresh units Wanda made.

spoddington
2009-01-07, 05:55 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but the uncroaked warlord in panel 6:
did he always wear a tabard with a target on, or is it a mutation of the Hamstard image?

Brilliant strip, by the way. If anyone has any doubts about the quality of this comic, I recommend they read it again from the beginning. It's an astonishing piece of work.

teratorn
2009-01-07, 06:10 AM
Great strip.

Smart move, you use all your available hit points to kill your enemies, and retreat the heavily wounded behind the other set of walls just before they croak.

The courtyard should fall on RCC's next turn, since they can use the archons, so Parson really needs this turn to maximize RCC losses. Next turn, with Wanda's back in shape he may even stage a major attack (including same smart surgical attacks from below the ground by Sizemore and his golems).

People complaining about the lack of archers... we don't know how many Manpower lost at warchalking. GK lost a major battle before this fight and I assume most of the really powerful, higher level troops were there.

hajo
2009-01-07, 06:27 AM
Question: why was it better to pull the forces off the walls and into the courtyard?

On the walls, they are fighting some-vs-some, in the courtyard
at the breach, they are fighting many-vs-some. So, better odds.

Kabouter Plop
2009-01-07, 06:28 AM
I wonder how "tough" Parson is, compared to the average Erfworlder. There is a chance they might be like cardboard to him, while he might be able to take a lot of damage before going down. We did have Bogroll's "fondest wish" foreshadowing.

Whispri
2009-01-07, 06:36 AM
The courtyard should fall on RCC's next turn, since they can use the archons, so Parson really needs this turn to maximize RCC losses. Next turn, with Wanda's back in shape he may even stage a major attack (including same smart surgical attacks from below the ground by Sizemore and his golems).
The Archons can't hit the courtyard though, not without first taking the Tower or a breach being made in the Garrison wall. Destroy enough siege and the RCC may have to consider climbing down those holes in the City floor.

I do wonder if Night attacks may be viable against Coalition units that end turn in a City Zone.

hajo
2009-01-07, 06:39 AM
the uncroaked warlord in panel 6:
did he always wear a tabard with a target on, or is it a mutation of the Hamstard image?

All the uncroaked warlords had some kind of target on them when they were introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0027.html).

Not all of GK's forces wear the Hamstard image, e.g. Maggie, and Sizemore's golems.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 06:51 AM
I wish Ansom was shown to be at least wounded after all the stunts he pulled. They just fast-forwarded to the breach over and done.

I would have thought Sizemore more probable to have a heal scroll (or even a minor spell, all Wanda needs is 1 hitpoint). Especially with his varied magic interests and his hippie foreshadowing. I guess the writers wanted to make it less of an issue on why he doesn't fix the breach. And if Wanda got up that fast it would probably throw the attack more in question. The writers again railroad the defenders to one course of action. That's like not already having Sizemore (and others) behind the breach the instant Ansom attacked. Yeah, let's put all our eggs into one basket (Wanda), really smart Chief Warlord Parson...

The defenders on the wall have been using ranged attacks (arrows, maybe ballistas) all the time and I have to wonder how people in this thread have missed it (it's in so many panels, page 118), even Andom's carpet has arrows in it. The most classic (and clever) thing to do is defend the breach, but Parson doesn't do it. It's a chokepoint that can be encircled from the front and attacked from above too (walls) and the attackers don't have any flying units currently that could cause problems (or casters).

OK, let's say it doesn't work like that in this game, then why fight in the city? Why not pull into the courtyard and get their wall bonus? Let's say they stay and fight a bit in the city hoping to get only wounds that will heal mostly. Why put the warlords in the front? I remember even in good old Centurion (of Rome) the easiest tactic to win a battle was to stay put or form a wedge and kill the enemy Commander. That caused the barbarians to lose morale usually and they were foolish enough to place their leaders front and center (unlike my Roman commanders) so they engaged combat first (and died first). I would surround the two oldest warlords with units, I wouldn't want to chance it that some enemy trick kills them and my fighting retreat plan turns into a rout. I hope they are retreated fast and aren't killed, to heal their wounds later, and the uncroaked army in the city doesn't lose its leadership or its ability to follow orders.
The only good thing would be if in the next comic they force the (first careless group of) attackers back to the breach (this is a very usual mistake), before a more determined and planned assault forces them to retreat to the courtyard. No need for the dungeon yet, though it will come to that. I wonder if Wanda can uncroak bodies in the city area if it is contested when it becomes GK's turn.

I liked the artwork though. Sizemore's face, Parson's sword-belt and him carrying rolled-up papers (maps?), and into-the-breach panel. I wanna see how they will picture Parson in combat, but side of me also wanted never to get his hands dirty, cause after all, he's a brilliant general.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 06:57 AM
On the walls, they are fighting some-vs-some, in the courtyard
at the breach, they are fighting many-vs-some. So, better odds.
You mean city not courtyard.
The area behind the large circular outer walls is the city.
The area behind the small square walls is the courtyard.

They are in front of the small walls and charged the breach. They are in the city which is probably the inner part of the outer walls zone.


The Archons can't hit the courtyard though, not without first taking the Tower or a breach being made in the Garrison wall. Destroy enough siege and the RCC may have to consider climbing down those holes in the City floor.

I do wonder if Night attacks may be viable against Coalition units that end turn in a City Zone.
The Tower is probably not defended at this point so the Archons can (at their next turn) take it fast and move on to the dungeon or courtyard easy.
If anyone can make a night Attack it would be Parson, soloing it. I doubt the authors will allow that rule breaking though.

Fjolnir
2009-01-07, 07:04 AM
I do wonder if Night attacks may be viable against Coalition units that end turn in a City Zone.

this MIGHT be possible, considering what we already have laid out, units cannot move at night (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html) (their move becomes 0) but units in defense of a city hex use no move to traverse the various zones of the city (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) (while apparently attackers do.), so IF they don't full commit this turn to crushing GK, they MIGHT be able to be sallied against at night due to the in game mechanics of defense, and it's JUST this sort of move that parson was looking for because like the dwagons pulling selective siege hits and withdrawing, it's quite probably something that nobody has seen before/haven't seen in a long time and could probably even the odds significantly if you caught ansom with his pants down

leo_neil316
2009-01-07, 07:16 AM
The reason parson is defending the -zone- and not the -breach- is simple, the RCC still have plenty of siege weapons on site, they have more arriving and they have the numbers to exploit multiple breaches at a time.

Parking right infront of the first one would be a good way to get outflanked, and risk getting walls dropped on your head. Especially since the RCC can't risk forming up on the other side of the breach and engaging properly, they have to rush in as they come to keep the defenders from manuvering so it'll take a while for their now much smaller numerical advantage to come into play.

Especially since Parson's running a fighting retreat here. He's not -trying- to hold the breach, he's just trying to bloody the RCC's nose again. After all, -he's- the one with the croakamancer.

teratorn
2009-01-07, 07:29 AM
After all, -he's- the one with the croakamancer.

I suppose it's not feasible to have another warlord with a stack of twolls picking the dead and taking them to the courtyard.

SmallFurryMamml
2009-01-07, 07:44 AM
I suppose it's not feasible to have another warlord with a stack of twolls picking the dead and taking them to the courtyard.

No, but on their turn they could engage the units in the main city area with Wanda in the stack, and she could raise the... wait, no, she can't do that actually, hmm... Do you think this implies corpses disappearing at night, or when it gets back to the turn for the side which fought it? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html)

Lamech
2009-01-07, 08:37 AM
If the coalition is stuipid enough to leave there forces in the wall zone until there next turn they're going to get smashed. There is no way they can gaurd a whole zone, so Sizemore at least can pop up anywhere and bring Wanda with. And of course, Wanda should be able to stay just long enough to trioxin everything. So yeah, staying in the city and waiting for Parson's turn = moronic.

P.S. Even worse if they can pull this all off at night. I suspect trioxin might be on your turn only, but if Sizemore can attack... good-bye coalition leaders. And I suspect it would take roughly two seconds for Parson to get the overlords to break the alliances after that.

SteveD
2009-01-07, 09:31 AM
People complaining about the lack of archers... we don't know how many Manpower lost at warchalking. GK lost a major battle before this fight and I assume most of the really powerful, higher level troops were there.

Well we know from klog #7 he only ever had 32 Archer-class infantry (assuming archer-class means archers and not something else, of course).

We also know now know that Parson had close to 3080 uncroaked infantry before Ansom attacked, most of which must still be alive uncroaked.

DigoDragon
2009-01-07, 09:50 AM
I wonder how the 3'5"-4'0" 120-140lb people of the world who haven't seen him will react to 5'10" 235lbs of parson coming at them sword in hand...

I know, this outta be entertaining. I can't wait to see Parson lead a charge and whale on the enemy. :smallbiggrin:



We've already got Charlie's inevitable double-cross out of the way

Why would he stop at just one double-cross? :smallamused: Why not go for a triple-cross and take out both sides so he can collect TWO tools of the gods instead of one?

fendrin
2009-01-07, 10:25 AM
w00t, 2 twoll heavies standing in the front part of Parson's army there. Can't wait to see them in battle ! Uh, those are spidews. They have the uncraoked warlords mounted on them.


Well, they've seen twolls before. Parson's not any bigger than Bogroll, so it's not like being a giant is neccesarily a huge novelty (although yes, it's probably going to be a surprise). The lack of visible stats will be the bigger shock, I think.


I'm wondering if an Ansom vs Parson mano y mano duel is pending. Enemy commanders are always prime targets...


You know, the Coalition has such a huge manpower advantage, if they win it'll be rather anticlimactic. On the other hand, since Gobwin Knob has our protagonist on its side, it'll be only slightly surprising if they win. The only way to have an ending that's not a letdown is if Something Totally Unexpected happens to end the battle. We've already got Charlie's inevitable double-cross out of the way (wouldn't have been that surprising anyway), and we already teased the idea of the Arkenpliers sudddenly attuning to someone else, so not a big surprise there either (even if it does happen). The Tool's impending return has already been telegraphed, and I'm not sure that his six remaining dwagons can turn the tide against so many Archons (unless there are more around that he didn't take with him but aren't part of the battle now, for some reason?), so other than the possibility of a hammer and pliers duel, that doesn't offer much in the way of an endgame either.

So what's that leave?
Mutually assured destruction. Collapsing the city wouldn't be enough, probably, but maybe Sizemore can make the volcano erupt. :smalleek:


Question for all those people arguing about turns; When's Stanley and Jack likely to arrive, and are Jillian and Vinnie likely to get back first? (given they seemed to get there first). Stanley spent at least 2 enemy turns with bad veils, and we've only had one enemy turn since he turned round...so I guess that means he'll be back on the GK turn after this one? Because the dwagons had used some move before they left GK for Faq, and because they had some move left when they fled the chokepoint, it is unclear if it would take 1 or 2 turns to arrive. However, for plot reasons I believe it will only be one, so they will arrive before Charlie's Archons can rain down dread invocations of corporatese on the defenders of GK.

Jillian and the transylvito forces are much slower than the dwagons, such that they had to use rules 'sploit to get to the chokepoint before Stanley). Thus they will require at least one additional turn to arrive. That will probably be too late to help, as it seems unlikely that the battle will last more than a day (given the flexible nature of time on Erf).

We know that the distance from the column to GK + the distance from GK to the chokepoint is 51 or 52 hexes. Thus the distance Stanley has to traverse is at most 50 hexes. I don't know the exact distance from the column to GK, but I presume at least 2 hexes, as the otherwise they would have already been at the walls. It is probably at least 5 or 6 though, or else Ansom could have started to surround the walls the first turn they were adjacent to GK. He did not, implying that the siege were out of move.

Whispri
2009-01-07, 10:33 AM
Uh, those are spidews. They have the uncraoked warlords mounted on them.

Jillian and the transylvito forces are much slower than the dwagons, such that they had to use rules 'sploit to get to the chokepoint before Stanley). Thus they will require at least one additional turn to arrive. That will probably be too late to help, as it seems unlikely that the battle will last more than a day (given the flexible nature of time on Erf).
Actually if you look behind the Knights you'll see a couple of Trolls standing head and shoulders above the rest. One is partially obscured by a Warlord's blade.

They lost a lot of units though, presumably the weaker and thus shorter ranged ones. Jillian's first mount had a move of fifty two.

SteveMB
2009-01-07, 10:37 AM
Jillian and the transylvito forces are much slower than the dwagons, such that they had to use rules 'sploit to get to the chokepoint before Stanley). Thus they will require at least one additional turn to arrive.

The expeditionary force as a whole was selected from 26+ Move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html) units. However, if the fastest units split off (e.g. Jillian's previous gwiffon had 52 Move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html), and it's reasonable to assume that her current mount is in that general range), they could improve on that.

Another_Poet
2009-01-07, 10:59 AM
All I can say is, Hamster sure gets to take a lot of actions on somebody else's turn.

fendrin
2009-01-07, 11:09 AM
Actually if you look behind the Knights you'll see a couple of Trolls standing head and shoulders above the rest. One is partially obscured by a Warlord's blade.
Why so there are. I misinterpreted 'in the front part' as 'at the front'.


The expeditionary force as a whole was selected from 26+ Move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html) units. However, if the fastest units split off (e.g. Jillian's previous gwiffon had 52 Move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html), and it's reasonable to assume that her current mount is in that general range), they could improve on that.

True, though I doubt that it would make much of a difference for small number of units to show up. Even knowing that Stanley survived isn't all that useful to the coalition right now.


All I can say is, Hamster sure gets to take a lot of actions on somebody else's turn.

Unlimited, in fact. In-hex combat does not seem to be limited at all, and defenders don't use move to cross city zones, so they aren't even limited by that.

headhoncho
2009-01-07, 11:35 AM
I liked the artwork though. Sizemore's face, Parson's sword-belt and him carrying rolled-up papers (maps?), and into-the-breach panel. I wanna see how they will picture Parson in combat, but side of me also wanted never to get his hands dirty, cause after all, he's a brilliant general.

Yes, the art was great. And at least things seem to be moving, unlike the frustrating exercise of the last four or five strips. And I'm glad the updates are coming fast and furious. Those are all awesome things. So I'll give it a break and hold off from further negativity right now.

Doug Lampert
2009-01-07, 11:37 AM
He has 32 I think, but even if those were on the walls with the undead, realistically they should have caused MASSIVE casualties on RCC side. Even with Ansom making a mess up there.

But it seems to me Tool's 'toughest defensive position in the world' is rather a joke compared to how easy it would have been to turn it into an almost unbreachable fortress. I guess it suffers from a serious case of 'plot'.

Massive casualties? Historically a fairly strong castle could be stormed by an attacker with a 10:1 supperiority in numbers without taking total losses greater than the defenders total numbers. This was true even if every defender had a bow and was a skilled archer rather than the less than 1% here.

Tall stone walls needed siege equipment and preparation to storm, but could be taken by 3:1 or less once that prepartion was made, and attacker losses were typically a small fraction of total defender numbers once that preparation was made.

The defenders at Massada, arguably the strongest fortress in OUR world at the time mass suicided prior to the final assault because they simply weren't going to inflict significant casualties once the other side was ready and they saw no reason to give the Romans prisoners.

There's a breach in Gobwin Knob's outer wall, the attackers don't need any additional significant preparation for the outer areas. The traditional thing to do is fall back to the inner wall, that's what it's there for, a fighting retreat gives everyone else time to pull back.

Bows aren't machine guns. With a heavy draw military bow you got 20-40 shots prior to needing to rest for your arm to recover. And evidence with rifles and more recent conflicts is that against unarmored foes 3-5% of shots inflicting a serious casualty is quite good even firing single shot against massed close assaults. Say you're archers are all awesum killing machines comparable to Robinhood in a work of fiction, they kill or disable with an amazing 20% of their shots. That's what? A couple of hundred attackers? Out of how many tens of thousands? This is your massive casualties?

Parson needs to have his men standing behind an intact wall or fighting someplace (like underground) where different rules apply and he gets a significant edge.

teratorn
2009-01-07, 11:55 AM
Massive casualties? Historically a fairly strong castle could be stormed by an attacker with a 10:1 supperiority in numbers without taking total losses greater than the defenders total numbers.

Not only that, the guys at GK's are the leftovers of GK's former might. Most of the high levels died in the battles before Parson's time. There are no living warlords, and Parson needs to use casters to boost his troops.

DevilDan
2009-01-07, 12:14 PM
The existence of flying units--and particularly of flying units like Ansom, a high-level unit wielding an instant-poof weapon against the uncroaked--makes comparisons to medieval Earth siege warfare suspect at best.

Thanks to Stanley's ill-fated flight to Faq, the RCC know owns the air. GK is far more vulnerable under those conditions, as we saw with the combination of siege and Ansom's sortie.

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-07, 12:22 PM
Why would he stop at just one double-cross? :smallamused: Why not go for a triple-cross and take out both sides so he can collect TWO tools of the gods instead of one?A lot of people suspect he's already got that thanks to his contract with Ansom.

DevilDan
2009-01-07, 12:28 PM
A lot of people suspect he's already got that thanks to his contract with Ansom.

After all, Ansom was about to lose the tool and his life in the bargain; I'm sure that he'd rather live and have the tool in Charlie's hands than be dead and have it in Stanley's.

And if Charlie is as interested in the arkenpliers as Parson suggested he is, Charlie wouldn't be shy about demanding it up front--or specifying that they should be handed over as soon as GK falls.

thucom
2009-01-07, 12:41 PM
True, though I doubt that it would make much of a difference for small number of units to show up. Even knowing that Stanley survived isn't all that useful to the coalition right now.


It's the little things that make the difference sometimes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html)

x1372
2009-01-07, 01:53 PM
Not really the sort of situation where he can rage-quit. :P

Actually, he can.

Parson has, right now, time to get himself and any units he cares about (casters, bogroll, possibly others) on a quick one-way trip to the magic kingdom. Depending on where the portal is (most likely in the tower), he may actually be LOSING that option by going for a last stand in the dungeon. He has the option of saying "screw this, everything's gone against me, I'm getting out of here." and guaranteeing the death of everyone left in GK while he and his friend get out.

Loyalty or not, he's insisting on doing what's best for his troops and the city, even to the point of considering "ruthlessly" forcing Sizemore to forget about Wanda and help defend the walls.

It wouldn't have made much of an ending if Parson had chosen to get outta dodge, but its a possibility he had.

Aquillion
2009-01-07, 01:53 PM
You know, the Coalition has such a huge manpower advantage, if they win it'll be rather anticlimactic. On the other hand, since Gobwin Knob has our protagonist on its side, it'll be only slightly surprising if they win. The only way to have an ending that's not a letdown is if Something Totally Unexpected happens to end the battle. We've already got Charlie's inevitable double-cross out of the way (wouldn't have been that surprising anyway), and we already teased the idea of the Arkenpliers sudddenly attuning to someone else, so not a big surprise there either (even if it does happen). The Tool's impending return has already been telegraphed, and I'm not sure that his six remaining dwagons can turn the tide against so many Archons (unless there are more around that he didn't take with him but aren't part of the battle now, for some reason?), so other than the possibility of a hammer and pliers duel, that doesn't offer much in the way of an endgame either.

So what's that leave?Dammit, the authors are not M. Night Shyamalan. Not every story needs to have a Shocking Swerve at the end. There's nothing wrong with telling a good traditional story with a good traditional ending, and telling it well; it's much better than adding stupid plot twists just for the sake of plot twists.

Overall, while they can be fun, relying on plot twists to drive your story is a form of bad writing. Relying on untelegraphed plot twists to drive your story is generally a form of terrible writing. A good story follows a logical path; constantly hitting your readers with things out of the blue isn't clever, it just shows that the author doesn't really know where they're going with all this. It's the kind of writing you get a lot in bad genre novels and TV serials, just because the authors have to throw something out quickly.

I think Erfworld is better than that. So far, while people have complained that Parson hasn't been constantly winning all the time, everything that's happened has been set up beforehand; there haven't been any out-of-the-blue plot twists. I expect that the resolution of this arc will be similar.


Actually, he can.

Parson has, right now, time to get himself and any units he cares about (casters, bogroll, possibly others) on a quick one-way trip to the magic kingdom. Depending on where the portal is (most likely in the tower), he may actually be LOSING that option by going for a last stand in the dungeon. He has the option of saying "screw this, everything's gone against me, I'm getting out of here." and guaranteeing the death of everyone left in GK while he and his friend get out. Technically, we don't know whether or not non-casters can enter the Magic Kingdom (he only mentioned sending casters there, not retreating there himself.) So that might not be an option for him.

DevilDan
2009-01-07, 02:07 PM
Parson has, right now, time to get himself and any units he cares about (casters, bogroll, possibly others) on a quick one-way trip to the magic kingdom. Depending on where the portal is (most likely in the tower), he may actually be LOSING that option by going for a last stand in the dungeon. He has the option of saying "screw this, everything's gone against me, I'm getting out of here." and guaranteeing the death of everyone left in GK while he and his friend get out.

It's been speculated that only casters can enter the magic kingdom.


Loyalty or not, he's insisting on doing what's best for his troops and the city, even to the point of considering "ruthlessly" forcing Sizemore to forget about Wanda and help defend the walls.

It wouldn't have made much of an ending if Parson had chosen to get outta dodge, but its a possibility he had.

He did have a very promising way out: he turned down Charlie's offer of a comfy archon ride and a cushy new job with Charlescomm. Parson mentioned that he wasn't sure if he made the decision of his own volition or whether loyalty (or duty or whatever) was messing with his head.

I assume that Parson could at any point switch sides and ask Charlie to save him, but Parson's made his choice.

PePe QuiCoSE
2009-01-07, 02:15 PM
Oh, btw, i don't know if it has already been mentioned (i skimmed some posts) but Parson words were "So i can lead this battle" rather than "direct" it. This might only refer to give his leadership bonus to their units but i guess more likely to be in the fighting hex. (edit: looking at Maggie's concerned face i'd say it's for straight up fighting)
I think that if he has a choke point in the dungeon he could probably hold it with his bonus (which might have gone up when he is wielding the sword) and Wanda's bonus to uncroaked. Then the biggest threat is Ansom and the pliers. If Ansom goes again in the leading stack (to dispatch the buffed uncroaked) Parson has another opportunity to try to get the Pliers. This time with some help from Maggie (as a "confuse" spell or something like that) or a spell of Wanda's stash they might succeed.

Still, my idea of a successful GK involves they getting the Arkenpliers. Does anyone sees them winning/surviving this turn otherwise?

SteveMB
2009-01-07, 02:20 PM
Technically, we don't know whether or not non-casters can enter the Magic City (he only mentioned sending casters there, not retreating there himself.)

He mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0114.html) sending the casters to the Magic Kingdom if it looked like they were "about to get crushed". That would seem to imply that only casters can use that escape route -- if Parson himself could escape that way, why not do so if the situation was unsalvageable? If anything, whatever hold Duty and Loyalty have on him would tend to encourage staying alive (getting himself croaked wouldn't make the situation any worse for Stanley; staying alive leaves open the possibility of somehow making it better).

fendrin
2009-01-07, 02:25 PM
Actually, he can.

Parson has, right now, time to get himself and any units he cares about (casters, bogroll, possibly others) on a quick one-way trip to the magic kingdom. Depending on where the portal is (most likely in the tower), he may actually be LOSING that option by going for a last stand in the dungeon. He has the option of saying "screw this, everything's gone against me, I'm getting out of here." and guaranteeing the death of everyone left in GK while he and his friend get out.

Loyalty or not, he's insisting on doing what's best for his troops and the city, even to the point of considering "ruthlessly" forcing Sizemore to forget about Wanda and help defend the walls.

It wouldn't have made much of an ending if Parson had chosen to get outta dodge, but its a possibility he had.
Has, not had. The RCC ground troops and cannot take the tower until they take the courtyard, which is where Parson's ground troops are massed. The Archons currently have 0 move (which is why they couldn't blast the uncroaked foot soldiers on the wall), so they cannot cross from Airspace to Tower, even though it is currently undefended. Parson can move troops back to the Tower whenever he wants. He will in fact have an entire turn before The archons can attack the Tower.

Unless of course, Jillian can (and chooses to) make it back on the her next turn. Of course, then she (and whatever other units she brought with her) would have to face whatever Parson wanted to throw at them. If he's looking to make an escape, he'll likely throw everything he's got at the tower to get to the transporter.

SteveD
2009-01-07, 02:51 PM
Why would he stop at just one double-cross? :smallamused: Why not go for a triple-cross and take out both sides so he can collect TWO tools of the gods instead of one?

Thats the thing isn't it? Not technically a double-cross. He wasn't allied with Parson, and was perfectly prepared to take the garrison himself to prevent Ansom getting the artifact(s). Keeping to his contract is seemingly Charlies one consistent trait.

Partywhipple
2009-01-07, 03:12 PM
Has this ever been mentioned before? It seems like a hack plot device to me. It's either some super weapon/Deus Ex Machina or it will be yet another waste of time. Writers should have passed that idea right by...

SteveMB
2009-01-07, 04:02 PM
Has this ever been mentioned before?
Has what ever been mentioned before?

fendrin
2009-01-07, 04:05 PM
Has this ever been mentioned before? It seems like a hack plot device to me. It's either some super weapon/Deus Ex Machina or it will be yet another waste of time. Writers should have passed that idea right by...

We see it very early on during the 'interrogation'.

Doran
2009-01-07, 04:18 PM
Has this ever been mentioned before? It seems like a hack plot device to me. It's either some super weapon/Deus Ex Machina or it will be yet another waste of time. Writers should have passed that idea right by...

Page 13 Panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0013.html)

Page 30 Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0030.html)

If the spells are genuinely useful, it may be a point that Wanda didn't tell Parson about them, which he may bring up later...

I've noticed quite a few people complaining that Parson hasn't defended the choke point, my guess is that his main priority is to lose as few units as possible because:

1) They'll all be healed at the start of next term
2) Wanda will provide her bonus next term
3) So will Parson

If he defended at the chokepoint only a few of his units would be able to access it and they would be croaked more quickly.

Also the RCC filling the outer walls section means
1) Sizemore can assassinate their warlords by coming up from the ground
2) As other people have speculated, Parson can possibly now attack at night

Also the Magic Kingdom portal appears to be not in the tower as Stanley's relayed commands seem to indicate on Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0013.html).

Lamech
2009-01-07, 04:23 PM
I've noticed quite a few people complaining that Parson hasn't defended the choke point, my guess is that his main priority is to lose as few units as possible because:
Erm... wait people are complaining that he hasn't defended the choke point? Look at those huge gashes to either side of the units on Parson's side, I suspect falling to those would be bad. And that the gobwins could smash any elves that end up alive down there. So umm... yeah Parson picked a choke point, just one that gives him more space to move troops.

Finwe
2009-01-07, 04:31 PM
Plenty of gamers aren't literally fighting for their lives.

Parson has an easy out, via Charlie, whenever he wants.

fendrin
2009-01-07, 04:35 PM
Parson has an easy out, via Charlie, whenever he wants.

Unless of course he is not truly free to choose that, such as if he is being influenced by Loyalty and Duty.

For that matter, the summoning spell may function is such a way that Stanley could destroy him even if he changes sides. Not all that great of an escape at that point.

DigoDragon
2009-01-07, 04:36 PM
Thats the thing isn't it? Not technically a double-cross. He wasn't allied with Parson, and was perfectly prepared to take the garrison himself to prevent Ansom getting the artifact(s). Keeping to his contract is seemingly Charlies one consistent trait.

Charlie wasn't allied with Parson, but he did make a verbal agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html) to bow out so as to prevent Stanley from croaking. So our boy Stan may yet be headed for that great Thriller in the sky by Charlie.

fendrin
2009-01-07, 04:52 PM
Charlie wasn't allied with Parson, but he did make a verbal agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html) to bow out so as to prevent Stanley from croaking. So our boy Stan may yet be headed for that great Thriller in the sky by Charlie.
we really don't know what Charlie agreed to in that contract/agreement. As far as we can tell he is not violating the terms of it.

It seems likely to me that the scope of the agreement was limited to the strike force. I doubt Charlie would have agreed to stay out of the war completely, and no way would he make an agreement effective in perpetuity.

Maxymiuk
2009-01-07, 04:56 PM
What I'm wandering about is whether anyone in the Coalition will realize that Parson's cycling troops, and whether they'll do something to counteract it (for example by copying it - though that would require that they send their own warlords into the breach). On one hand, at its core, it's the same tactic he already used once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0061.html) - so someone should be able to clue in. On the other, the most likely someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0119.html) is currently at least one turn away from Gobwin Knob. On the third hand, Ansom has healers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html) to mitigate his own losses. Though that in turn seems to require immediate proximity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html) to the unit being healed, and we have yet to see whether the Coalition thought to stack up Altruistic and Lofty Elves in that charge of theirs.

If I were to take a guess, I'd say that there's no one else in the Coalition who is both capable and willing to persuade Ansom to stop applying the hammer method. That battle in the courtyard will be bloody indeed.

jazz1m
2009-01-07, 05:08 PM
2) As other people have speculated, Parson can possibly now attack at night

Also the Magic Kingdom portal appears to be not in the tower as Stanley's relayed commands seem to indicate on Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0013.html).
Hmmm...why would he be able to move at night, doesn't everyone's move go down to zero? Or perhaps that's the "special" under his stats?

If Parson does go out to battle, I'm betting Bogroll will go with him, with unfortunate circumstances perhaps. I just enjoy killing of characters, but that makes a certain amount of sense to me at least, and kind of foretold throughout the series.

Not sure if some one asked this before or not (I'm sure it has) but can't they recruit some casters from the Magic Kingdom? If sizemore and wanda can come and go as they please...it certainly takes move but it'd be pretty good to have those kind of allies.

Godskook
2009-01-07, 05:12 PM
Hmmm...why would he be able to move at night, doesn't everyone's move go down to zero? Or perhaps that's the "special" under his stats?

GK troops can move throughout the city during other people's turns, so its not a far stretch to think that they also can do so at night.

Capt'n Ironbrow
2009-01-07, 05:20 PM
I wish Ansom was shown to be at least wounded after all the stunts he pulled. They just fast-forwarded to the breach over and done.

I would have thought Sizemore more probable to have a heal scroll (or even a minor spell, all Wanda needs is 1 hitpoint). Especially with his varied magic interests and his hippie foreshadowing. I guess the writers wanted to make it less of an issue on why he doesn't fix the breach. And if Wanda got up that fast it would probably throw the attack more in question. The writers again railroad the defenders to one course of action. That's like not already having Sizemore (and others) behind the breach the instant Ansom attacked. Yeah, let's put all our eggs into one basket (Wanda), really smart Chief Warlord Parson...

The defenders on the wall have been using ranged attacks (arrows, maybe ballistas) all the time and I have to wonder how people in this thread have missed it (it's in so many panels, page 118), even Andom's carpet has arrows in it. The most classic (and clever) thing to do is defend the breach, but Parson doesn't do it. It's a chokepoint that can be encircled from the front and attacked from above too (walls) and the attackers don't have any flying units currently that could cause problems (or casters).

OK, let's say it doesn't work like that in this game, then why fight in the city? Why not pull into the courtyard and get their wall bonus? Let's say they stay and fight a bit in the city hoping to get only wounds that will heal mostly. Why put the warlords in the front? I remember even in good old Centurion (of Rome) the easiest tactic to win a battle was to stay put or form a wedge and kill the enemy Commander. That caused the barbarians to lose morale usually and they were foolish enough to place their leaders front and center (unlike my Roman commanders) so they engaged combat first (and died first). I would surround the two oldest warlords with units, I wouldn't want to chance it that some enemy trick kills them and my fighting retreat plan turns into a rout. I hope they are retreated fast and aren't killed, to heal their wounds later, and the uncroaked army in the city doesn't lose its leadership or its ability to follow orders.
The only good thing would be if in the next comic they force the (first careless group of) attackers back to the breach (this is a very usual mistake), before a more determined and planned assault forces them to retreat to the courtyard. No need for the dungeon yet, though it will come to that. I wonder if Wanda can uncroak bodies in the city area if it is contested when it becomes GK's turn.

I liked the artwork though. Sizemore's face, Parson's sword-belt and him carrying rolled-up papers (maps?), and into-the-breach panel. I wanna see how they will picture Parson in combat, but side of me also wanted never to get his hands dirty, cause after all, he's a brilliant general.


I agree on the uncroaked warlord's position, if you need control (disengage/restack), they should be in the centre or at the rear. However, for a long time, maybe even still, an officer going ahead of his men was viewed as good for morale as the officer is the not really sending his men to die, he is leading them to the enemy, first in, last out. it seems a military utopia, but it was a requirement for a long time, officers from the ranks of lieutenant up to colonel led from the front to set an example.
Off course, especially in the renaissance and the age of reason, officer mortallity rates were relatively high compared to the enlisted as they led from the front. more so because they weren't allowed to flinch or dodge when shot at as troops imitating them would screw up the neat formations (especially an issue for pikemen). It was the NCO's who took care of the rear of formations, keeping the men in line. The Roman Centurions from your example originally led their company from the front-side (I guess the left, so they'd still benefit from the large shield), the optio (lieutenant) on the other end of the front-line and the adjudant at the rear to keep the men in line. It was the ensign that took centre position. being a field-grade officer has statistically been (and maybe still is) a higher-risk job than the position of private... and of course, private is more risky than general... or is it? there were less generals than privates over history, and lots did die ;)

so, why in front? for morale and Úlan!

Maxymiuk
2009-01-07, 05:28 PM
so, why in front? for morale and Úlan!

And meatshielding. In most strategy and war games, be they real-time or turn-based, you put your toughest units up front to take the hits, while your less resilient units flank or use ranged attacks. And I'd say that in Erf, unlike in real life, it's the leaders that have the highest chance of surviving direct combat.

MalikT
2009-01-07, 06:16 PM
so, why in front? for morale and Úlan!

Maybe he is putting them in front because this is their last turn before decomposing. They can absorb a lot of damage before croaking, well, croaking again.

Godskook
2009-01-07, 06:21 PM
Lets not forget, without the warlords in the stack, wounded units can not disengage from a fight. Without his warlords in the lead stacks, Parson's fighting-retreat would be more like a red carpet cause I doubt that he could take the RCC in an open fight, right now.

reignofevil
2009-01-07, 06:58 PM
People keep using the term Dues Ex Machina, yet I dont think they know what it means.
Sometime months back, I saw it put best.
That wasn't Dues Ex, Dues Ex would have been the titans personally coming down and telling Ansom to lay off
Dues Ex doesnt mean "Plot device I dont like" Stop lessening its real meaning.

Ragn Charran
2009-01-07, 07:01 PM
I do wonder if Night attacks may be viable against Coalition units that end turn in a City Zone.

A lot of people seem to like this possibility, but it would be a pretty serious exploit. While there's nothing specific in the comic to back this up, I would assume that once the RCC captures a zone, it is no longer part of Parson's capital, and therefore cannot be attacked without expending move. After all, bonuses of that type are typically defensive, and once a zone is controlled by the enemy moving into it is offensive.

Of course, without knowing the specific wording of the rule - just Parson's Klog entry version of it (which I can't go look up because the server seems to be laggy) - we cannot be sure.

However, while Parson's discussing the idea with Misty for the Dwagon Donut (edit) and the mention of no move being required within the city in the klog (/edit) prevents the idea from being a Deus Ex Machina, it does seem pretty far-fetched that no one in the coalition has thought of this threat, or read in their libraries of the tactic being used in other battles (implying no one in the history of Erfworld has thought of it!), and would therefore leave units in place to be freely attacked.

Ragn Charran
2009-01-07, 07:17 PM
People keep using the term Dues Ex Machina, yet I dont think they know what it means.
Sometime months back, I saw it put best.
That wasn't Dues Ex, Dues Ex would have been the titans personally coming down and telling Ansom to lay off
Dues Ex doesnt mean "Plot device I dont like" Stop lessening its real meaning.

But it also means more than its literal translation, which is what your quote is implying. I'll agree with you that it is overused, but a Deus Ex Machina is any plot device used which is completely outside of the established realm possibility of the setting.

To use the current popular example, if Parson attacked at night, which was stated to be impossible, and if the reason for it being possible was never stated prior to it happening (that reason being that despite Misty's assertion that units can't move at night, defender's don't need move to travel between city zones), then it would be a Deus Ex Machina, despite Titans not being involved.

As things stand, it would not be a Deus Ex machina, because the rule exception is foreshadowed in the klog.

Godskook
2009-01-07, 07:25 PM
A lot of people seem to like this possibility, but it would be a pretty serious exploit. While there's nothing specific in the comic to back this up, I would assume that once the RCC captures a zone, it is no longer part of Parson's capital, and therefore cannot be attacked without expending move. After all, bonuses of that type are typically defensive, and once a zone is controlled by the enemy moving into it is offensive.

Counter point, Wanda's airforce moved through an enemy controlled city zone(airspace) off-turn. Hence, the only restriction in question is the day/night one.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-01-07, 07:26 PM
Mutually assured destruction. Collapsing the city wouldn't be enough, probably, but maybe Sizemore can make the volcano erupt. :smalleek:GK is Stanley's last city. It is in the caldera of a volcano. I'd assume that the destruction of the city would follow any eruption. And wouldn't that make all surviving units of GK either disband or become barbarians?


All I can say is, Hamster sure gets to take a lot of actions on somebody else's turn.No, this is consistent with the rules. For the defenders there is no movement expended or required while within the walls of their own city. Note that Bogroll is a unit of type Garrison and has zero move. You'll never see Bogroll leave the city (unless promoted, perhaps), but that doesn't mean he can't move from walls to courtyard to tower to tunnels as ordered.


Has this [stored spells] ever been mentioned before? It seems like a hack plot device to me. It's either some super weapon/Deus Ex Machina or it will be yet another waste of time. Writers should have passed that idea right by...It has. The summoning spell which summoned Parson was such a spell, and we saw Wanda draw some kind of spell from a shelf full of several of them when she interrogated Jillian. I've always assumed that spell was the suggestion spell, since Wanda is a croakamancer and the suggestion spell is of the thinkamancy school (I think). Wanda has been (self) described as having a lot of capability with magics of other schools, just not much interest in them.


I agree on the uncroaked warlord's position, if you need control (disengage/restack), they should be in the centre or at the rear.I think they need to be in the stack in order to have the injured disengage. Position within the stack, front or rear, is probably not relevant in the game mechanics, or at least I'm not familiar with any TBS games (video or tabletop) which made any such distinction.


Well, we've actually never seen him [Parson] out of control.This is one thing I like a great deal about this comic. So many similar situations in other literature have the hero spending huge amount of time on "why me?", "am I insane?", and other such introspection. Parson has, realistically as I see it, spent very little time on this sort of thing. A hit to the head to try to "wake up", pinching himself, and some speculation that he might have had a seizure, that's about it. Other than these few occasions he has done very well, accepting the situation at face value and trying to make the best of it. He'll drop the occasional "aw, boop!" at a reversal of fortunes, but then goes right into planning or rolling out his next move without spending any time at all cursing his bad luck or becoming stunned into ineffectiveness.

Altima
2009-01-07, 07:43 PM
A deus ex machina (literally "god from the machine") is an ironic plot device in which a surprising or unexpected event occurs in a story's plot, suddenly and completely resolving an otherwise unsolvable conflict. It is "an improbable contrivance in a story characterized by a sudden unexpected solution to a seemingly intractable problem." Neoclassical literary criticism, from Corneille and John Dennis on, took it as a given that one mark of a bad play was the sudden invocation of extraordinary circumstance. Thus, the term "deus ex machina" has come to mean any inferior plot device that expeditiously solves the conflict of a narrative.

At every instant, every complaint invoking the deus ex machine has been about extending the extraordinary circumstances. Nothing, really, has been resolved, and nothing has certainly come out of the blue (with, perhaps, the exception of Charlie).

Heck, Parson's very existance is a deus ex machina for Stanley and his predicament, though. Besides, Erfworld itself is made of pure, undistilled extraordinary circumstances.

DevilDan
2009-01-07, 07:53 PM
So many similar situations in other literature have the hero spending huge amount of time on "why me?", "am I insane?", and other such introspection. Parson has, realistically as I see it, spent very little time on this sort of thing. A hit to the head to try to "wake up", pinching himself, and some speculation that he might have had a seizure, that's about it. Other than these few occasions he has done very well, accepting the situation at face value and trying to make the best of it.

This was actually one of Stanley's stipulations that seems astutely prescient, when he said that he didn't want a "morale case" but rather "someone who actually wants to be summoned."


It has. The summoning spell which summoned Parson was such a spell, and we saw Wanda draw some kind of spell from a shelf full of several of them when she interrogated Jillian.

In fact, some of us predicted the use of a "canned" spell.

As to the question of what moves will be allowed to GK units once night falls... one thing we don't know is whether a zone completely under the control of an invader (whether it's part of the garrison, like the tower, or whether it is the outer walls or airspace or tunnels) counts as part of the "free move" zones for defending units. We have no indication that this is so, but it is possible.

The question now is: How much does Ansom want to do this turn? Does he want to end it now, or are there conditions under which it would be to his advantage to announce the end of turn without completely conquering GK? If Charlie stays an un-allied collaborator, then his turn would precede GK's. (I remind everyone that we've yet to see Charlie actually break any stipulation of a contract or accord, whether with Ansom or with Parson).

Lamech
2009-01-07, 08:54 PM
As to the question of what moves will be allowed to GK units once night falls... one thing we don't know is whether a zone completely under the control of an invader (whether it's part of the garrison, like the tower, or whether it is the outer walls or airspace or tunnels) counts as part of the "free move" zones for defending units. We have no indication that this is so, but it is possible.
Dude... the airforcce went from tower to air, and attempted to land so, the free move is valid for city zones even if controlled.

Secondly, Parson moved from the courtyard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html) at night (stars), to the tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html), where he had been up all night. So some moving is allowed, and I suspect it is still free. Now what remains to be seen is if there is some prohabition on combat, such as the archons not firing at the uncroaked on the walls. If not...

Sieggy
2009-01-07, 09:24 PM
At every instant, every complaint invoking the deus ex machine has been about extending the extraordinary circumstances. Nothing, really, has been resolved, and nothing has certainly come out of the blue (with, perhaps, the exception of Charlie).

Heck, Parson's very existance is a deus ex machina for Stanley and his predicament, though. Besides, Erfworld itself is made of pure, undistilled extraordinary circumstances.

Except that deistic machinations generally don't run 350,000 schmuckers for the stripped down model.

Ragn Charran
2009-01-07, 09:49 PM
Counter point, Wanda's airforce moved through an enemy controlled city zone(airspace) off-turn. Hence, the only restriction in question is the day/night one.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Though the Charlescomm forces were neutral at the time, not hostile, which could make a difference. Another potential difference is that, since Charlie only occupied the airspace that morning, he may not be officially in control of the airspace until night falls - maybe as long as it's someone's turn, it's still contested space.

Not meaning to argue the point, just throwing thoughts out there.

Whispri
2009-01-07, 11:02 PM
There's no such thing as a neutral side, without Commander oversight unallied units will attack each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html).


A lot of people seem to like this possibility, but it would be a pretty serious exploit. While there's nothing specific in the comic to back this up, I would assume that once the RCC captures a zone, it is no longer part of Parson's capital, and therefore cannot be attacked without expending move. After all, bonuses of that type are typically defensive, and once a zone is controlled by the enemy moving into it is offensive.

Of course, without knowing the specific wording of the rule - just Parson's Klog entry version of it (which I can't go look up because the server seems to be laggy) - we cannot be sure.

However, while Parson's discussing the idea with Misty for the Dwagon Donut (edit) and the mention of no move being required within the city in the klog (/edit) prevents the idea from being a Deus Ex Machina, it does seem pretty far-fetched that no one in the coalition has thought of this threat, or read in their libraries of the tactic being used in other battles (implying no one in the history of Erfworld has thought of it!), and would therefore leave units in place to be freely attacked.
Wouldn't be the first exploit Parson's found. Granted it would be a very unpleasant surprise for the RCC, a throat-cutting, siege-burning, no-more-sleep-for-you-sunshine sort of surprise, but it still isn't a war winner, neither side gets to heal until tomorrow after all.

As for the 'brains' behind the Coalition not spotting it, the only person to realise what was happening when the Dwagons hit the column is miles away.

Lamech
2009-01-07, 11:08 PM
Wouldn't be the first exploit Parson's found. Granted it would be a very unpleasant surprise for the RCC, a throat-cutting, siege-burning, no-more-sleep-for-you-sunshine sort of surprise, but it still isn't a war winner, neither side gets to heal until tomorrow after all.
It would be no worse than a third party taking a long time with their turn game mechanic-wise. Now the coalition might think, "ohh its night time we're safe", and find out that isn't quite the case. But thats there fault for not setting watches, and being stuipid. It would not be an exploit, mearly a oversight on the part of the coalition.

Bawon von Howse
2009-01-08, 03:17 AM
...so...sorry if someone else has already mentioned this, however I was thinking:

Parson's goading of Ansom has forced him to change his plans. Ansom's original plan was to surround the city (mitigating victory through tunnel assault) and 'search for a weakspot' to make the breach. Though, instead of spending the next turn surrounding the city, he's made a rash assault, which though has made the breach may proove costly.

Without having all of the siege arrived yet, and presumeably the troops that are supposed to be defending them, Ansom's not attacking at full strength. It would seem to me that this is going to turn into a major bloodbath for the RCC, and Ansom's allies will be Sofa King out of there before the end of the turn!

...also, for the purposes of story, I don't think that the battle for GK can climax on this turn as we still need a resolution with Stanley, Jillian & Vinnie. Perhaps, on the next Transylvito turn Vinnie & Jillian arrive, Jillian storms the tower for a climactical confrontation with Wanda...Parson then wtfpwns the RCC with Stanley arriving in time to mop up the dribbles (in other words, I'm thinking that this particular battle will end on Parson's next turn)>>>

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 03:31 AM
Parson's goading of Ansom has forced him to change his plans. Ansom's original plan was to surround the city (mitigating victory through tunnel assault) and 'search for a weakspot' to make the breach. Though, instead of spending the next turn surrounding the city, he's made a rash assault, which though has made the breach may proove costly.

It's been noted that Ansom, whether because of guilt or anger regarding the loss of his troops and their subsequent uncroaking or whether the coalition was showing some cracks, was forced to change his plans and charge by himself. What few expected was a successful breaching of the walls, particularly after being knocked of his carpet.

Of course, some argued that having the denouement outside GK's walls was anticlimactic. For similar reasons, we also await the reversal or macguffin that will give not only Stanley but also Jillian an opportunity to return. (Of course, if Jillian is still her own side or is still allied with Transylvito, and if she is in fact returning to GK, then she may arrive before Stanley does.)

Dragonath
2009-01-08, 04:43 AM
Uh, those are spidews. They have the uncraoked warlords mounted on them.



No you fool, that's obviously not what I meant. Look a bit past them, 2 tall fat figures standing about 10 feet behind the warlords. They're probably twolls.

Of course I know what Spidews are, captain obvious.

Capt'n Ironbrow
2009-01-08, 05:26 AM
the current turn is still far from over... it only ends at Ansom's command, which might not come untill every single unit/stack able to move trough the breach this turn has done so... the GK troops in the courtyard will face thousands of RCC troops before dusk.

teratorn
2009-01-08, 06:00 AM
I expect that if Parson can attack at night Ansom will be aware of it. He fought inside cities before. It's very different from the tunnel fight, where we can suppose Jetstone troops lacked experience. But having a dirtamancer who can move easily through the ground may turn what was supposed to be a night of rest into a nightmare. And we know units need to sleep.

Ansom may leave the bulk of his forces outside the city, and keep only enough to maintain control of it.

Maxymiuk
2009-01-08, 06:05 AM
Ansom may leave the bulk of his forces outside the city, and keep only enough to maintain control of it.

Depending on how the fight in the courtyard goes, these may very well become mutually exclusive possibilities. Also, remember that at this point a significant portion of Coalition forces is still 1-3 turns away from the city. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html)

Trixie
2009-01-08, 06:35 AM
All I want to say it's sad to watch Parson with that hand-drawn map when he had access to holodeck earlier. :smallsigh:

By the way, what Parson took with him? A map is one of these scrolls, what are others and the book?

EDIT: The book is propably the ICQ comminicator, sigh. I forgot about it :smallsigh:

Anyway, what are these scrolls? Spells?

And why exactly he deployed his forces so far away from the breach? If M:TW siege battles taught me anything, it was to deploy your forces in half-circle as close to the breach as you can, to grind his coming units, one after another, to nothing with several of your own. Otherwise, you only end giving the enemy time to bring several of his through the breach, and the battle is usually lost if that happens.

Also, look how ridiculously low are those siege towers compared to the walls. What they were thinking?! :smallmad:

Whispri
2009-01-08, 07:02 AM
I expect that if Parson can attack at night Ansom will be aware of it. He fought inside cities before. It's very different from the tunnel fight, where we can suppose Jetstone troops lacked experience. But having a dirtamancer who can move easily through the ground may turn what was supposed to be a night of rest into a nightmare. And we know units need to sleep.

Ansom may leave the bulk of his forces outside the city, and keep only enough to maintain control of it.
He'd fought Dwagons before as well, and yet the Dragon Strike on the column still came as a shock.

Every time he's divided his forces he's been burned. You'd think the thousands of men he sent into the tunnels could have survived on their own in most circumstances, yet they fared worse than the column did.

teratorn
2009-01-08, 07:05 AM
Also, look how ridiculously low are those siege towers compared to the walls. What they were thinking?! :smallmad:

They'll be able do directly attack the inner walls. There's no way they could push towers big enough to climb the outer walls, but they provided access to diggers.

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 09:22 AM
Also, remember that at this point a significant portion of Coalition forces is still 1-3 turns away from the city. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html)

Ansom says then that because of the slowness of siege units some troops may take up to five turns to arrive. He said this in day 2. It is now day 7, the turn during which he planned to take his time by completely enveloping the city. Both these fact suggests to me that most of the RCC within a single turn's move from GK.


Anyway, what are these scrolls? Spells?

The Eyebooks still work, but without the linked Eyemancers Parson is stuck using old-fashioned maps, as we see in in panels 4 and 5.

fendrin
2009-01-08, 09:29 AM
All I want to say it's sad to watch Parson with that hand-drawn map when he had access to holodeck earlier. :smallsigh:

By the way, what Parson took with him? A map is one of these scrolls, what are others and the book?

EDIT: The book is propably the ICQ comminicator, sigh. I forgot about it :smallsigh:

Anyway, what are these scrolls? Spells?
Probably more maps. The one he was using only covers a portion of the city, so he would need maps of the other sections as well.


Also, look how ridiculously low are those siege towers compared to the walls. What they were thinking?! :smallmad: Keep in mind that this is a (comedic) game-like world; the effectiveness of a unit has little to do with it's size or proportions.

Trixie
2009-01-08, 10:25 AM
They'll be able do directly attack the inner walls. There's no way they could push towers big enough to climb the outer walls, but they provided access to diggers.

Um, really? The inner walls look almost as tall to me. In fact, when you look at this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html

The outer walls have a very steep slope directly behind them. I cannot see any road connecting to it, so any siege machines would probably fall if driven through any hole in the wall.

Also, in M:TW2 my favorite strategy (during the battles with huge castles on the map) was to let enemy have the outer wall, when he started to pour though crack in the wall or gate I could slaughter him using above crescent formation, and if that wasn't enough I usually retreated to inner castle (as most siege engines couldn't be driven into city) where my archers killed enemies as they gathered under the walls, waiting for their single, painfully slow battering ram to arrive (and there was no army within the game large enough to withstand the second pounding). :smallwink:

Imho, Parson gives them too much space to redeploy, while keeping his troops in too tight formation, but I'm willing to wait and see why he did this.

Iain
2009-01-08, 10:28 AM
Also, look how ridiculously low are those siege towers compared to the walls. What they were thinking?! :smallmad:
Next you'll be telling us that dwagons couldn't fly with those small wings, or that dressing as a mod wouldn't actually let you fight more effectively against someone dressed as a rocker :smallwink: :smallsmile:

CaptC
2009-01-08, 11:14 AM
RE: Night-time attacks

I've weighed in on this before, but here we go again:

Being able to get to the enemy, even if it takes you no-move to do so, is only half the requirement necessary. Can you actively initiate an attack outside of your own turn?

I know of no turn-based strategy game, cardboard or computer, where you can initiate an attack unless it is EXPLICITLY your turn. Night-time is by definition not your turn.

You can react to an attack by the enemy outside of your own turn. Within the context of an enemy assault, you can retreat, counter-attack, decide to withhold fire, etc. But you cannot, yourself, bring about offensive action until your own turn.

Don't confuse Parson ordering a counter-attack against an invading enemy, with giving Parson the ability to magically initiate an attack against an enemy-controlled territory out of turn.

My contention: If Parson exhibits the ability to so grossly break the conventions of turn-based games, especially without any foreshadowing that I can see, then DEUS has indeed MACHINA'd. I trust the authors more than that, and hence, strongly believe that no such exploit will be allowed.

fendrin
2009-01-08, 11:20 AM
My contention: If Parson exhibits the ability to so grossly break the conventions of turn-based games, especially without any foreshadowing that I can see, then DEUS has indeed MACHINA'd. I trust the authors more than that, and hence, strongly believe that no such exploit will be allowed.

It has been foreshadowed (in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html) klogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html))that Parson may not be restricted by all of the rules that Erflings are.

However, I too would be very disappointed by Parson winning in such a manner, and trust Rob & Jamie not to resort to that.

SteveMB
2009-01-08, 12:02 PM
It has been foreshadowed (in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html) klogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html))that Parson may not be restricted by all of the rules that Erflings are.

However, I too would be very disappointed by Parson winning in such a manner, and trust Rob & Jamie not to resort to that.

I don't think they'd resort to having Parson turn out to be "Special" in a way that gives him an easy win once he discovers it; that would be lame. Some less overwhelming advantage from his not-quite-of-this-world status could come up (e.g. if and when he ends up in direct combat, his hidden stats might give enemy warlords a bit of pause).

Those Klog comments strike me more as tossing out thoughts until he figured out a plan than as something substantial.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 12:10 PM
It has been foreshadowed (in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html) klogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html))that Parson may not be restricted by all of the rules that Erflings are.

However, I too would be very disappointed by Parson winning in such a manner, and trust Rob & Jamie not to resort to that.

We apparently read that first Klog very differently. I view Parson's half-joking attempt to invoke god-mode as a failure, and as such, I view it as a shout-out to the video-gamer community. "We aren't going to use such a cheeeep ending, no cheat modes are going to be invoked."

Thereby strengthening the tension: "I am in a gamelike situation, I need a gamelike solution" that doesn't involve cheating. (Emphasis and addition mine.)

The Klog where Parson says he's not sure he's really a unit is more problematic, of course. The possibility of magical powers becomes explicit and, I'll admit, foreshadowed. Personally, I think the statement "I don't quite fit in this universe, and there has to be a way I can use that" covers Parson's stupid-meal augmentations quite nicely. That, plus the fact that Parson is allowed to think things that Erf-world denizens can't conceive of, completely fulfills that particular piece of foreshadowing. If Parson suddenly sprouts Cthulhu-like abilities to go where-ever he wants and take advantage of otherwise helpless opponents, he might as well have been handed a cheat-code.

Whispri
2009-01-08, 12:12 PM
RE: Night-time attacks

I've weighed in on this before, but here we go again:

Being able to get to the enemy, even if it takes you no-move to do so, is only half the requirement necessary. Can you actively initiate an attack outside of your own turn?

I know of no turn-based strategy game, cardboard or computer, where you can initiate an attack unless it is EXPLICITLY your turn. Night-time is by definition not your turn.

You can react to an attack by the enemy outside of your own turn. Within the context of an enemy assault, you can retreat, counter-attack, decide to withhold fire, etc. But you cannot, yourself, bring about offensive action until your own turn.

Don't confuse Parson ordering a counter-attack against an invading enemy, with giving Parson the ability to magically initiate an attack against an enemy-controlled territory out of turn.

My contention: If Parson exhibits the ability to so grossly break the conventions of turn-based games, especially without any foreshadowing that I can see, then DEUS has indeed MACHINA'd. I trust the authors more than that, and hence, strongly believe that no such exploit will be allowed.
Parson's already launched an attack outside his turn, down in the tunnels. Attacking the City at night is no more or less of an attack than the destruction of the Infantry that were packed in underneath it.

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-08, 12:13 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Parson could attack at night.
The rest of the GK troops, probably not, although they could surely walk around with him and absorb hits when he needs to retreat back to the garrison. (Bogroll)

teratorn
2009-01-08, 12:16 PM
My contention: If Parson exhibits the ability to so grossly break the conventions of turn-based games, especially without any foreshadowing that I can see, then DEUS has indeed MACHINA'd. I trust the authors more than that, and hence, strongly believe that no such exploit will be allowed.

It won't be if Ansom is aware of that, and prepares his troops for that kind of night activity. In fact it would be a very interesting feature of warfare inside a city. The fact that other games do not include it doesn't matter. I agree with you that it shouldn't come as a surprise to Ansom's camp.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 12:29 PM
Parson's already launched an attack outside his turn, down in the tunnels. Attacking the City at night is no more or less of an attack than the destruction of the Infantry that were packed in underneath it.

Say what? Show me a panel, or it didn't happen.

Parson attacked in the tunnels, in his turn. The reason it surprised Ansom and Webinar is that Ansom expected Parson to dig in and await Ansom's attack.

Whispri
2009-01-08, 12:40 PM
Say what? Show me a panel, or it didn't happen.

Parson attacked in the tunnels, in his turn. The reason it surprised Ansom and Webinar is that Ansom expected Parson to dig in and await Ansom's attack.
Eh, I must be more tired than I thought. He sent Wanda through the airspace though, same difference. And note that the airspace is entirely under Charlie's control.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 12:50 PM
The fact that other games do not include [the ability to attack out of turn] doesn't matter.

Actually, it does. If you invoke a world as a turn based strategy game, certain characteristics differentiate your world from reality, or from a real-time game.

One of the characteristics is that you can act on your turn, and you may be able to react on other players turns under specific circumstances. If the game mechanics require time to reset markers, adjust unit statistics, bring in reinforcements, etc then you and the other players may do that as part of your turn, or you may simultaneously perform such game maintenance at the same time as the other players (IE at night.)

I ask you, if a side can act out of turn, then what's the point of a turn? You cannot have any strategic initiative outside your turn, or you simply aren't playing a turn-based game. Literally, you cannot choose to act except at specific times. That is such a basic tenet of TBS games, that you aren't playing a TBS if this convention is violated.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 12:56 PM
Eh, I must be more tired than I thought. He sent Wanda through the airspace though, same difference. And note that the airspace is entirely under Charlie's control.

Not the same difference. Parson is explicitly given the ability to move units through the capitol without expending move, and can obviously do so in response to enemy assaults.

As far as Charlie's presence, there is a huge difference between a neutral side and an enemy side. I shouldn't really have to explain that, should I?

While I'm not sure I completely grasp all the rules of city defense and the interactions between city zones, I have seen nothing even remotely close to Parson attacking out of turn. The convention that you act on your turn, and react on enemy turns, has been scrupulously honored so far.

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 01:08 PM
It has been foreshadowed (in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html) klogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html))that Parson may not be restricted by all of the rules that Erflings are.

However, I too would be very disappointed by Parson winning in such a manner, and trust Rob & Jamie not to resort to that.

I don't know if you can foreshadow the concept that reality may break at any moment very effectively. Since this break would probably come as a surprise to Parson, then it would mean that he might win out of sheer dumb luck (or, arguably, the foresight of the summoning spell.)

I, too, trust that the creators won't stoop to making that a crucial part of the ending of this chapter.

Whispri
2009-01-08, 01:08 PM
Not the same difference. Parson is explicitly given the ability to move units through the capitol without expending move, and can obviously do so in response to enemy assaults.

As far as Charlie's presence, there is a huge difference between a neutral side and an enemy side. I shouldn't really have to explain that, should I?

While I'm not sure I completely grasp all the rules of city defense and the interactions between city zones, I have seen nothing even remotely close to Parson attacking out of turn. The convention that you act on your turn, and react on enemy turns, has been scrupulously honored so far.

Expending no move means expending no move, plain and simple.

And again, there is no such thing as a neutral side. Non-Allied Units are forced to Kill On Sight, only Commanders can stop this from happening. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html)

Aside of course, from when Wanda moved through through airspace dominated by fliers who could have shot her down at any time.


Actually, it does. If you invoke a world as a turn based strategy game, certain characteristics differentiate your world from reality, or from a real-time game.

One of the characteristics is that you can act on your turn, and you may be able to react on other players turns under specific circumstances. If the game mechanics require time to reset markers, adjust unit statistics, bring in reinforcements, etc then you and the other players may do that as part of your turn, or you may simultaneously perform such game maintenance at the same time as the other players (IE at night.)

I ask you, if a side can act out of turn, then what's the point of a turn? You cannot have any strategic initiative outside your turn, or you simply aren't playing a turn-based game. Literally, you cannot choose to act except at specific times. That is such a basic tenet of TBS games, that you aren't playing a TBS if this convention is violated.
There are different rules for defending Cities. This has been clearly spelt out.

And the actual fighting looks more like Real Time Tactics than Turn Based anything.

teratorn
2009-01-08, 01:12 PM
I ask you, if a side can act out of turn, then what's the point of a turn? You cannot have any strategic initiative outside your turn, or you simply aren't playing a turn-based game.

???? Then Erfworld isn't TBS. The archons just grilled GK's fliers. They were in their "hex" so they could do it. The city is a single hex for Parson, so if the archons can do it, so can he.

Wanda just attacked Ansom in the airspace out of her turn. Before that Wanda grilled Jillian's airforce out of turn. She attacked airspace, a zone of the city which wasn't in control of Parson.

Erfworld's TBS means healing and moving between hexes.

fendrin
2009-01-08, 01:24 PM
Re: foreshadowing/ Parson "breaking" the rules
I guess that what I mean is that I would not be surprised by it happening, though as I said, I would be disappointed. I would not consider it to be a Deus Ex Machina, but it would be almost as bad.


As far as Charlie's presence, there is a huge difference between a neutral side and an enemy side. I shouldn't really have to explain that, should I?

Actually, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in Erfworld, or at least not that we've seen.

In fact, It would not surprise me at all if the few Jetstone field units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html) were croaked because an unled force stumbled up on them, due to Stanley's careless orders, just like the spidew squad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0026.html).


Aside of course, from when Wanda moved through through airspace dominated by fliers who could have shot her down at any time. Which is more likely because one or more of the Archons are commanders than because they are somehow an exception to the rule. Some people have also speculated that the Arkendish may allow Charlie to 'lead' troops from his distant location.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 01:28 PM
Let me try simpler:

1) Night-time attacks require the ability to choose to attack, while it is not your turn.

2) The authors have given no example, anywhere, showing a unit attacking at any time other than their turn. (up to this point)

3) The authors may have foreshadowed that Parson has special gifts, but they have not foreshadowed explicitly that Parson has the ability to choose to attack outside turn. (up to this point.)

Whispri, your last post more-or-less states facts accurately, but as far as I can see, it doesn't address my contention directly. Parson will not attack at night because he literally cannot choose to do so.

Maxymiuk
2009-01-08, 01:28 PM
???? Then Erfworld isn't TBS. The archons just grilled GK's fliers. They were in their "hex" so they could do it. The city is a single hex for Parson, so if the archons can do it, so can he.

Wanda just attacked Ansom in the airspace out of her turn. Before that Wanda grilled Jillian's airforce out of turn. She attacked airspace, a zone of the city which wasn't in control of Parson.

Erfworld's TBS means healing and moving between hexes.

The man has a point.

Plus:

"Do you need sleep to function? To cast?"
It does help, Lord."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html)
Not necessary, just helpful. Also, both the above and any number (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html) other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html) indicates that units other than Parson can move about the city and perform actions during the night. So if it turns out that Parson can (and in that case most likely will) stage nighttime attacks if Ansom's forces remain within city walls, there's been plenty of hints given about that already.

EDIT:



1) Night-time attacks require the ability to choose to attack, while it is not your turn.


I suppose that depeds whether you treat Wanda's torture session as an attack then.

It did inflict damage, after all. :smallamused:

CaptC
2009-01-08, 01:40 PM
???? Then Erfworld isn't TBS. The archons just grilled GK's fliers. They were in their "hex" so they could do it. The city is a single hex for Parson, so if the archons can do it, so can he.

Wanda just attacked Ansom in the airspace out of her turn. Before that Wanda grilled Jillian's airforce out of turn. She attacked airspace, a zone of the city which wasn't in control of Parson.

Erfworld's TBS means healing and moving between hexes.

Wanda did not attack out of turn. She is reacting to Ansom's attack.

The archons did not ACT strategically, they REACTED tactically to Wanda's reaction. Choosing to defend a hex or zone is apparently allowed as part of reaction. At first they chose to do nothing while Wanda attacked Ansom. After the alliance was forged, the archons chose to defend their zone. All legitimate, nothing at all that breaks turn boundaries.

Erfworld is indeed a TBS. And so far, is following the conventions of a TBS faithfully.

fendrin
2009-01-08, 01:42 PM
It is not outside the realm of possibility that any units defending a city can attack at night, and thus it would be such a standard practice to withdraw troops out of disputed cities before ending one's turn that no one really thinks about doing things any other way.

It also may be the case that a turn cannot be ended while a hex (any hex, not just a city hex) is contested; in other words the battle would rage until either the attackers withdraw from the battle (punching through, tactical retreat, whatever) or one side or the other is wiped out (or captured, which as we know temporarily causes the captured unit to be considered part of the capturing side for purposes of upkeep).

Either of these is possible, and neither explicitly conflicts with the rules we have seen so far. They are mutually exclusive though. I prefer the latter of the two, as it fits better with the TBS concept. The former idea would allow combat to take place outside of turns, which just doesn't seem quite right.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 01:43 PM
I suppose that depeds whether you treat Wanda's torture session as an attack then.

It did inflict damage, after all. :smallamused:

:smallbiggrin: I LOL'd in real life...

Is it really damage if you enjoy it?

fendrin
2009-01-08, 01:48 PM
Wanda did not attack out of turn. She is reacting to Ansom's attack.

Considering that she was entering an ongoing fray, I don't think it matters who throws the first punch. In other words, if Ansom had continued dusting the uncroaked infantry, Wanda still would have been able to attack him. Otherwise he could have just ignored her completely, and that just makes no sense whatsoever.

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 01:55 PM
Wanda just attacked Ansom in the airspace out of her turn. Before that Wanda grilled Jillian's airforce out of turn. She attacked airspace, a zone of the city which wasn't in control of Parson.

It was never clear to me how the mechanics would allow someone doing melee damage against units in the wall to technically be in the airspace zone.

As to Wanda's torture of Jillian, Jillian was a prisoner at the time and thus not quite part of the RCC. And when Parson was only talking with Maggie, not asking her to perform any thinkamancy.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 01:56 PM
Considering that she was entering an ongoing fray, I don't think it matters who throws the first punch. In other words, if Ansom had continued dusting the uncroaked infantry, Wanda still would have been able to attack him. Otherwise he could have just ignored her completely, and that just makes no sense whatsoever.

Not my point at all.

Parson could choose to send Wanda into combat with Ansom because you are allowed to react to an enemy attack. Parson/Wanda are not illegitimately attacking out of turn - they are legitimately reacting to Ansom's attack.

Whispri
2009-01-08, 01:57 PM
Which is more likely because one or more of the Archons are commanders than because they are somehow an exception to the rule. Some people have also speculated that the Arkendish may allow Charlie to 'lead' troops from his distant location.

I should have been more clear with that, I wasn't continuing my point as much as replying to CapC's insistence that no one can act out of turn. But yes, they must be controlled somehow, and it's possible one of those Archons is a Warlord, or that one or more of them count as Casters and thus Commanders.


Let me try simpler:

1) Night-time attacks require the ability to choose to attack, while it is not your turn.

2) The authors have given no example, anywhere, showing a unit attacking at any time other than their turn. (up to this point)

3) The authors may have foreshadowed that Parson has special gifts, but they have not foreshadowed explicitly that Parson has the ability to choose to attack outside turn. (up to this point.)

Whispri, your last post more-or-less states facts accurately, but as far as I can see, it doesn't address my contention directly. Parson will not attack at night because he literally cannot choose to do so.
@ 1): All it requires is the ability to reach the enemy when you have no move left.

@ 2): Enemy dominated airspace has been attacked out of turn on no less than two occasions.

@ 3): They haven't ruled Night attacks out. Not even in posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5448054&postcount=5) around here where the Word of God was handed down. There may be an exception to the exception, but there's nothing to indicate that this is the case.

What are basing your contention on?


Wanda did not attack out of turn. She is reacting to Ansom's attack.

The archons did not ACT strategically, they REACTED tactically to Wanda's reaction. Choosing to defend a hex or zone is apparently allowed as part of reaction. At first they chose to do nothing while Wanda attacked Ansom. After the alliance was forged, the archons chose to defend their zone. All legitimate, nothing at all that breaks turn boundaries.

Erfworld is indeed a TBS. And so far, is following the conventions of a TBS faithfully.
She moved through an enemy controlled Zone to attack a Unit that was hitting the Walls. It moved to intercept her.

The Archons can't move until their next turn. The defenders of Gobwin Knob are not so constrained.

Not every TBS game is the same. Not every TBS game resolves combat using Turns.

fendrin
2009-01-08, 02:40 PM
Not my point at all.

Parson could choose to send Wanda into combat with Ansom because you are allowed to react to an enemy attack. Parson/Wanda are not illegitimately attacking out of turn - they are legitimately reacting to Ansom's attack.

Ah, I see. That makes more sense. The question then, is once Ansom ends turn, if he still has troops in the city hex (say, in the outer walls zone), and then in the middle of the night some GK units move in to the outer walls zone, can anyone initiate an attack? what if all stacks in that zone are unled?

Lamech
2009-01-08, 03:32 PM
It also may be the case that a turn cannot be ended while a hex (any hex, not just a city hex) is contested; in other words the battle would rage until either the attackers withdraw from the battle (punching through, tactical retreat, whatever) or one side or the other is wiped out (or captured, which as we know temporarily causes the captured unit to be considered part of the capturing side for purposes of upkeep).
Erm... not so much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0117.html).


While I'm not sure I completely grasp all the rules of city defense and the interactions between city zones, I have seen nothing even remotely close to Parson attacking out of turn. The convention that you act on your turn, and react on enemy turns, has been scrupulously honored so far.
Wanda blasted Jillian out of turn, and Jillian hadn't attacked anything. Of course, I guess you could argue, it was in response to moving in.
But here Charlie claims Parson could break his Archons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html), so that would seem to imply Wanda could have hit the Archons. That would be an outright attack. Charlie didn't attack move in on the Jetstone turn, so it isn't responding to anything.

Ever played magic? Or say total war? In the first despite the turns one can act off turn with certain things like instants, with out the opponent doing anything. In total war everything in cities and the spaces happens in real-time, which seems very similar to Erfworld to me...

CaptC
2009-01-08, 03:37 PM
First, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I am trying to clear up what I view as some misconceptions. Second, I am only making a very limited point regarding the possibility of night-time attacks. (Literally, attacks during the night phase of the game, outside of turn for all players.) I don't think they are possible because of the nature of turn-based games.

I've been playing TBS games since I subscribed to SPI magazine in the '60s. I've never played a TBS where you can take strategic actions outside your turn. As it's not my world, certainly the authors may break these conventions. That's their right. But so far, they have lovingly followed TBS convention. It's clear to me they love the TBS genre, and won't willingly turn Erfworld into a bastardized RTS.

For the most part, I think most of us are in violent agreement about what is depicted in the comics, we just aren't calling things by the same names. Or we are calling different things by the same name. Language doesn't help us here. "Attack" is ambiguous, for example. "To attack" might mean "engage in combat with an enemy force controlling a hex or zone, with the intent of taking that zone for myself". Or it might mean "do damage to an enemy force that is trying to take over a hex or zone we currently control." And those are different things.

So let me try again:

To ATTACK basically means you choose where a fight is going to be happen. It is a strategic decision. You cannot ATTACK when it is not your turn.

To REACT means you are moving forces to where the enemy has already chosen to attack. You can REACT whenever you are attacked. The major difference between an attack and a reaction is that you cannot move forces arbitrarily in a reaction Your forces must be moving to a location where you have been attacked.

- Ansom ATTACKED the walls. His turn, he's allowed to choose where he fights.
- Wanda REACTED, necessarily moving through Charlie controlled airspace.
Charlie refrained from defending that airspace.
- Ansom and Wanda combat ensued, probably in Charlie controlled airspace. Charlie refrained from intervening.
- Charlie and Ansom allied.
- Charlie finally chose to intercept Wanda.

And this is going to be my last word on the subject. I meant to make a limited point. I have made it. You can agree or disagree, but I'm done. The rest of my life beckons... :smallsmile:

teratorn
2009-01-08, 03:42 PM
We know Parson can move freely, even during the night. Even assuming they can't fight, there is nothing stopping Parson from sending all his heavies to sit beside Ansom during the night. He can even send units near stacks without warlords!

If Ansom can't attack opponents moving near his troops during the night he risks starting the morning with the enemy on his face.

In hex fighting is probably round-based but unrestricted.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 03:44 PM
Ever played magic? Or say total war? In the first despite the turns one can act off turn with certain things like instants, with out the opponent doing anything. In total war everything in cities and the spaces happens in real-time, which seems very similar to Erfworld to me...

I own a game store. We play Magic every Friday night. :smallbiggrin:

I never said you can't act off turn. I said you can't make strategic attacks off turn.

MTG is not strictly a TBS game, but the general rule applies even there. You can't attack on your opponent's turn, you can only react by chaining or blocking. Your reactions may cause damage, but they aren't strategic attacks.

Lamech
2009-01-08, 03:52 PM
"Strategic attacks?"

Alright I think this may be the point of confusion/disagreement. During TV's turn, are you saying that Parson would not be able to send his units to the outer-wall zone and use them to attack? Or are you saying he couldn't send them outside of the walls to attack? Because those are two differant things...

fendrin
2009-01-08, 04:26 PM
Erm... not so much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0117.html).Yep, you're right.

I would have to amend my idea to include city zones, which still leaves open the possibility of night attacks...


First, I'm not trying to be a jerk. To be clear, I never thought you were.


For the most part, I think most of us are in violent agreement about what is depicted in the comics, we just aren't calling things by the same names. Or we are calling different things by the same name. Language doesn't help us here. "Attack" is ambiguous, for example. "To attack" might mean "engage in combat with an enemy force controlling a hex or zone, with the intent of taking that zone for myself". Or it might mean "do damage to an enemy force that is trying to take over a hex or zone we currently control." And those are different things.
Aye, (natural) language is a problem. The philosopher Bertrand Russel wrote two chapters on the word 'the', and many philosophers still don't think that quite covers it, And that's just one word! Granted, probably the most complicated word in the English language, but still...


So let me try again:

To ATTACK basically means you choose where a fight is going to be happen. It is a strategic decision. You cannot ATTACK when it is not your turn.

To REACT means you are moving forces to where the enemy has already chosen to attack. You can REACT whenever you are attacked. The major difference between an attack and a reaction is that you cannot move forces arbitrarily in a reaction Your forces must be moving to a location where you have been attacked.
Hypothetical scenarios:

Set-up:
Side A is invading a city of Side B.
Each side has one warlord and two non-warlords infantry involved.
None of the units can fly or have any other special abilities.
Side A goes before Side B.

Scenario 1: Basic
A's turn:
A's units walk in through the open front doors. Because Side B's units are all in the courtyard, A now has uncontested control of the Outer Walls zone.
B's turn:
B's warlord leads his two infantry into the Outer Walls zone, thus ATTACKING.
A's unit's REACT in the form of defending themselves. Battle ensues, one side defeats the other side's units, thus controlling the city.

Scenario 2: Complicated
A's turn:
A's warlord sends his units through the open front doors. Because Side B's units are all in the courtyard, A now has uncontested control of the Outer Walls zone. A's two infantry, in the OW zone, are unled.
B's turn:
Nothing happens.
Night:
B's warlord sends his two infantry, not restricted in the city by their lack of move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html), into the Outer Walls zone. There are now two unled A's and two unled B's. Is there a fight? By the rules we know, there has to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html). Did B ATTACK? By your definition, yes, yet you state they cannot have, because it is night.


And this is going to be my last word on the subject. I meant to make a limited point. I have made it. You can agree or disagree, but I'm done. The rest of my life beckons... :smallsmile:
Good luck with that. I swear, these boards are booping addictive. :smalltongue:

CaptC
2009-01-08, 05:54 PM
Hypothetical scenarios:

Set-up:
Side A is invading a city of Side B.
Each side has one warlord and two non-warlords infantry involved.
None of the units can fly or have any other special abilities.
Side A goes before Side B.

Scenario 1: Basic
A's turn:
A's units walk in through the open front doors. Because Side B's units are all in the courtyard, A now has uncontested control of the Outer Walls zone.
B's turn:
B's warlord leads his two infantry into the Outer Walls zone, thus ATTACKING.
A's unit's REACT in the form of defending themselves. Battle ensues, one side defeats the other side's units, thus controlling the city.

Scenario 2: Complicated
A's turn:
A's warlord sends his units through the open front doors. Because Side B's units are all in the courtyard, A now has uncontested control of the Outer Walls zone. A's two infantry, in the OW zone, are unled.
B's turn:
Nothing happens.
Night:
B's warlord sends his two infantry, not restricted in the city by their lack of move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html), into the Outer Walls zone. There are now two unled A's and two unled B's. Is there a fight? By the rules we know, there has to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html). Did B ATTACK? By your definition, yes, yet you state they cannot have, because it is night.


Your basic scenario strikes me as exactly right.

In your complicated scenario, I don't believe B could move units into the outer walls that night. By the rules listed so far in the canon, it seems he would have the movement capabilities. But I would contend he doesn't have the ability to initiate combat (it's not his turn!), hence he can't move there.

Many games have 'non-combat movement' rules defined. The way I view movement that occurs at night is either as non-combat movement, or as narrative license for the redeployment that can occur when a player has zero cost movement options.

Think of the Risk redeployment move for example, the rules language states you can move units from one country to an adjacent country that you own at the end of your turn. A popular modification we make to the Risk rules is that you can extend this free movement to allow the units from one country to move any number of contiguous friendly spaces. But the key word is friendly - you can't attack with this free move.

(Addictive is right!) :smallsigh:

Altima
2009-01-08, 06:01 PM
It's possible that one of the archons was a leader, too. In this case, a caster.

In one case, as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0123.html), we see that Maggie has her hands in a certain way while performing thinkamancy.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0130.html) we see an archon performing the same gesture. We also see it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html), too. Lastly, we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0133.html). These are the Archon(s) performing it, presumably so that Charlie may monitor the battle. To me, that says that there's at least one or two thinkamancers among Charlie's expedition.

I mean, Archons can fly, they're quite powerful, and if they can perform thinkamancy, well, that just falls square into the realm of overpowered. So yeah.

CaptC
2009-01-08, 06:06 PM
"Strategic attacks?"

Alright I think this may be the point of confusion/disagreement. During TV's turn, are you saying that Parson would not be able to send his units to the outer-wall zone and use them to attack? Or are you saying he couldn't send them outside of the walls to attack? Because those are two differant things...

Both, actually. Parson couldn't do anything on Transylvito's turn, unless attacked by Transylvito. In that case, he can respond to the areas threatened.

But I'll assume you misspoke. If the RCC attacked the outer walls, then you can react to the outer walls, not to outside the outer walls. Wanda could go after Ansom and/or the units attempting to breach the walls, but she couldn't have gone after the seige train that hasn't yet gotten to the outer walls zone. That would be a offensive strategic move, not a defensive tactical reaction, and Wanda can't undertake offensive strategic attacks when it's not her turn.

Godskook
2009-01-08, 06:16 PM
Thereby strengthening the tension: "I am in a gamelike situation, I need a gamelike solution" that doesn't involve cheating. (Emphasis and addition mine.)

Godmode is cheating, fyi, and Parson invokes that in the very next line, so your addition does not belong there.


Erfworld is indeed a TBS. And so far, is following the conventions of a TBS faithfully.

Show me anywhere where someone says that Erf follows a rule that isn't listed in the Klogs. Cite one example and I'll be happy. Otherwise, you can't impose rules from outside sources onto Erf. Sure, every last TBS you've ever played may not allow for this, but that doesn't matter, unless Rob Balder makes some statement that says we can use rules from 'standardized TBS'. As far as I know, he hasn't.

Lamech
2009-01-08, 06:53 PM
But I'll assume you misspoke.
No I didn't want to say night because that might have special rules like, no attacking enemy units. So, TV was basically the same thing a time when both sides were off turn, except it wouldn't let Parson sneak up on units, or have special rules attached.

That being said, Parson didn't attack the marbits down in the tunnels, at night, and since that seemed the keystone of his plan I think if he had some cheap trick he would have used it then. So I'm going to guess that night attacking is a no-no, or at least not useful.

Eugenitor
2009-01-08, 06:57 PM
I'm seeing the night-attacking thing as an exploitable loophole.

Units cannot move outside their hexes/cities when it's not their turn.

Night is no one's turn.

Therefore, no one can fight at night, because there's no move to do so with.

With the singular, interesting exception of being *inside one's own city* with the enemy...

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 07:18 PM
I'm seeing the night-attacking thing as an exploitable loophole.

Firstly, it's pretty hard to imagine that this is one loophole no one in Erf saw before.

Secondly, why would Ansom halt his attack, giving up the initiative and letting wounded GK units heal?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I do expect some real twists beyond the "loophole" mold. Let's see how well Parson's "fighting retreat" works--though I suspect it's only an ante, a minor part of what Parson's planned.

Eugenitor
2009-01-08, 07:26 PM
Firstly, it's pretty hard to imagine that this is one loophole no one in Erf saw before.

HIT AND RUN was a tactic no one in Erf saw before. It's fairly well established that Erfworlders are idiots. Maybe it's the whole born-yesterday thing.


Secondly, why would Ansom halt his attack, giving up the initiative and letting wounded GK units heal?

Because he "learned his lesson" about haste, needs to heal himself, and wants Charlie's forces with him for the final assault against the garrison walls? It's also very possible that his siege is all out of move right now and would need more to get to said garrison walls.


I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I do expect some real twists beyond the "loophole" mold. Let's see how well Parson's "fighting retreat" works--though I suspect it's only an ante, a minor part of what Parson's planned.

Well, considering that Parson's *expecting* Ansom to end turn before the day is done (why else would he retreat wounded units?), I think that his plans involve night and another GK turn. Even if he's only waiting for Stanley. :)

teratorn
2009-01-08, 07:44 PM
Secondly, why would Ansom halt his attack, giving up the initiative and letting wounded GK units heal?

I don't think turns can last forever, the "game" must have something similar to a time limit. But there are a few possibilities for ending the turn even sooner.

Suppose that you got a lot of wounded units at the outer wall, and you're not sure you'll be able to finish the enemy even if you push with everything you have. It may be a good thing to stop and keep a certain number of "fresh" units to prevent a counter attack from Parson (his units will heal). Same thing if most of your siege is wounded or "tired."

There may also be a more complex set of rules. We know casters have limited "juice." Archers may end their arrow supply, battle bears may have a fixed amount of rocks they can throw. Units, including Ansom, may be able to fight only a certain number of "rounds."

DevilDan
2009-01-08, 07:55 PM
HIT AND RUN was a tactic no one in Erf saw before. It's fairly well established that Erfworlders are idiots. Maybe it's the whole born-yesterday thing.

Still strikes me as unlikely.


Because he "learned his lesson" about haste, needs to heal himself, and wants Charlie's forces with him for the final assault against the garrison walls? It's also very possible that his siege is all out of move right now and would need more to get to said garrison walls.

I think--or my cold-addled brain could be playing tricks on me--that Ansom won't heal until RCC's next turn, after GK gets healed at the start of their turn. And at least some of his siege must have enough move, considering that he expected to use it to surround GK during this turn.


Well, considering that Parson's *expecting* Ansom to end turn before the day is done (why else would he retreat wounded units?), I think that his plans involve night and another GK turn. Even if he's only waiting for Stanley. :)

One reason is that Parson expects that eventually Ansom will realize that he's hemorrhaging troops and decide that he needs to rethink, perhaps finding retreat to the walls more amenable; if Parson is on his game, Ansom may decide the best choice is to end turn, but I doubt that at this point he intends to end turn before putting everyone in GK to the sword. He owns the sky now and should be able to quickly ascertain that the tower is empty, which is perhaps where the archons would have been most useful.

In addition, Parson is rotating troops to make sure that his few warlords have some support rather than being exposed unnecessarily even for a little while.

I do think that there must be some mechanism that prevents a side from keeping their turn going forever, even if it's just exhaustion from lack of food "popping." I can also see some maximum "time" limit.

selgnij
2009-01-08, 08:46 PM
Another reason Parson wants to keep as many of his units alive for as long as possible at least:

Before Ansom can bring his ground troops into the garrison, he has to breach the garrison walls. The stregth of the walls is determined by the sheer number of troops on them. So even if the units are wounded, they still enhance the wall defense. So Parson gets to inflict casualties, while keeping most units alive (er, well, not alive, but you know what I mean) and even wounded they make the garrison harder to get into from the ground.

OK, now the spoiler for what I think Parson is planning/what will happen:

After their fighting retreat, GK's units go onto the garrison walls. We've already seen the RCC wasn't crazy about breaching the outer walls with all those uncroaked up there, so they may face the same problem with the garrison walls. Of course Ansom can just try another solo charge to create a weak point, but I don't think Parson will let that happen twice. (Maybe thats why he's preparing for battle, so he can boost the uncroaked/knock Ansom down himself) If Ansom can't pull off another heroic charge, the RCC has a reason to end turn and wait until their next turn. (Next turn the archons can either aid in attacking the walls or attack the garrison directly.)

Samargh
2009-01-08, 08:55 PM
Let me try simpler:

1) Night-time attacks require the ability to choose to attack, while it is not your turn.

2) The authors have given no example, anywhere, showing a unit attacking at any time other than their turn. (up to this point)

3) The authors may have foreshadowed that Parson has special gifts, but they have not foreshadowed explicitly that Parson has the ability to choose to attack outside turn. (up to this point.)

Whispri, your last post more-or-less states facts accurately, but as far as I can see, it doesn't address my contention directly. Parson will not attack at night because he literally cannot choose to do so.

CaptC, I can understand what you are saying. What we have here appears to be a classic RAI vs RAW argument... Rules As Intended vs Rules AS Written.

We all know there are power gamers and rules laywyers, and that hese people who go looking for loopholes and exploits are the least fun, most pain in the boop players to come across.

However, Parson (who we should surely agree is indeed a consumate gamer) is in what could definately be a fight for his life.

under those circumstances, I am certainly going to be happy if he can pull out a rules loophole and trun the tables...

Now in answer to you 3 points above, looking at it from a "rules lawyer" perspective.

1. Um, I agree that this would be the intention of the rules, but I believe there is a loophole.. see below.

2.agreed... since the denizens of this world are a natural part of it, they would go with rules as intended... I would guess they wouldn't concieve of viewing it any other way. However Parson is not of this world...

3. You appear to be hung up on the point of attacking outside their turn...

here is the exploit.

Parson may redeploy his forces within the city at will. He is not "moving" as it costs no move to do this. We have seen GK units travelling between city zones too many times throughout the strip for anyone to be able to claim that this is not the case. In fact Parson is doing so right now...

We also know that stacks without leaders _must_ attack an opponents stack within their area.

We also know that the maximum stack size is 8, and that both sides have troops in the magnitude of thousands, therefore there will be an awful lot of stacks. I would put it that it is a reasonable assumption that the majority of stacks on both sides will be leaderless.

Given the above, Parson could "re-deploy" his forces at night in such a way that they were next to an unlead RCC stack. He is allowed to do this (RAW).

The leaderless RCC stack must attack, even if it is not their turn (RAW)

Parson has not attacked, he is re-deploying as allowed and forcing other people to auto attack his units.

If this exploit were to pan out, Parson could concievably do exactly what he did with the dwagons vs siege, only this time all of his forces would heal fully at the start of his turn, giving him full strength troops against an opponent who is badly damaged and unable to heal until the start of their own turn... which is after Parson.

The effect of this concievably is that RCC could loose almost its entire army, which would then become uncroaked during Parsons turn, leaving him a HUGE force with whcich to repel Charlie who's turn now comes after his (allies going on the turn of the slowest alliance member).

Hence giving us the plot reason why Ansom had to take time out to ally with Charlie...

RAI vs RAW... gotta love Rob and Jamie for weaving that one in if its the way it works out...:smallsmile:

fendrin
2009-01-08, 09:14 PM
In your complicated scenario, I don't believe B could move units into the outer walls that night. By the rules listed so far in the canon, it seems he would have the movement capabilities. But I would contend he doesn't have the ability to initiate combat (it's not his turn!), hence he can't move there. This is certainly possible, and...


Parson didn't attack the marbits down in the tunnels, at night, and since that seemed the keystone of his plan I think if he had some cheap trick he would have used it then. So I'm going to guess that night attacking is a no-no, or at least not useful.

Very good point. There really was no reason for parson to wait until his turn if he could have attacked at night. If he attacked at night, his units would have healed up to be at full strength for the potential assault on the walls.

Well, he might not have attacked the tunnels at night to keep that little trick a secret until he could use it to even more devastating effect.

On a side note, my next thought was "why didn't he attack (or react, in CapC's lingo) when the Jetstone troops first entered the tunnels?". I quickly realized though that if he had done so, Webinar could have withdrawn his troops, or Ansom could have sent in reserve forces. Either one would have been disastrous to Parson's plan.

Eisen
2009-01-08, 09:19 PM
You know, as much as he hates it, Sizemore seems to be a Master-class Dirtamancer. He seems to be able to do brilliant things with stone and such.

The Walls are now a loss to GK. Parson has pulled his units out.

It if were ME, knowing both of these things...I'd sabotage the walls and use them as a weapon. If they can't protect me anymore, I can always drop parts of them on the enemy.

Also, there's the sword. I am convinced the Sword will a) Dramatically increase Parson's originally pathetic Leadership bonus, and B) give him MASSIVE combat stats. I'm betting directly leading a stack, he will be a monster.

HPV
2009-01-08, 09:19 PM
We also know that the maximum stack size is 8...

Unless you're taking that from somewhere I've forgotten (quite possible I'll admit), stack size isn't explicitly limited to 8 units, that's just the maximum size of the "stack bonus": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html (start of the second to last paragraph)
The way that klog's worded implies to me that you could have a larger stack, but that most of the time it doesn't happen because there's no direct benefit to the combat abilities of the unit's involved. *shrug*

Not saying that the above completely invalidates your scenario, I actually quite like the thinking behind it, even if I'm not convinced it's how things are gonna turn out. :smallsmile:

Eisen
2009-01-08, 09:25 PM
Given the numbers of some of these armies (thousands) and the seemingly smaller numbers of Leaders (dozens, perhaps), it seems likely that there are a high number of unled stacks MUCH larger than 8.

Whispri
2009-01-08, 09:43 PM
No I didn't want to say night because that might have special rules like, no attacking enemy units. So, TV was basically the same thing a time when both sides were off turn, except it wouldn't let Parson sneak up on units, or have special rules attached.

That being said, Parson didn't attack the marbits down in the tunnels, at night, and since that seemed the keystone of his plan I think if he had some cheap trick he would have used it then. So I'm going to guess that night attacking is a no-no, or at least not useful.
You're forgetting, the lynch pin of the tunnel fighting was a Caster, Caster's need their beauty sleep. Sizemore had likely spent at least some of his juice for that day bolstering the tunnel defences. And some spells don't like being cast out of turn.

HPV
2009-01-08, 09:46 PM
Given the numbers of some of these armies (thousands) and the seemingly smaller numbers of Leaders (dozens, perhaps), it seems likely that there are a high number of unled stacks MUCH larger than 8.

Of maybe there's just a few dozen led stacks, each comprising of several hundred? As far as I know there isn't any maximum limit on stack size, and although it would be extremely impractical during a battle, there's no particular reason not to do it at night.
OTOH I'm not saying there's any particular reason why you would bother to take such a precaution, if you weren't expecting trouble anyway. *shrug*

Whispri
2009-01-08, 09:50 PM
Of maybe there's just a few dozen led stacks, each comprising of several hundred? As far as I know there isn't any maximum limit on stack size, and although it would be extremely impractical during a battle, there's no particular reason not to do it at night.
OTOH I'm not saying there's any particular reason why you would bother to take such a precaution, if you weren't expecting trouble anyway. *shrug*
Actually Tarfu did refer to a 'max stack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html)' whilst trying to break through the Dwagon Fort.

Lamech
2009-01-08, 11:01 PM
You're forgetting, the lynch pin of the tunnel fighting was a Caster, Caster's need their beauty sleep. Sizemore had likely spent at least some of his juice for that day bolstering the tunnel defences. And some spells don't like being cast out of turn.

Quite correct, but I think if it was a game winning tactic, Parson would have done it. So I'm going to amend my statement to say, night fighting is either a no-no, or not a huge exploit.


Well, he might not have attacked the tunnels at night to keep that little trick a secret until he could use it to even more devastating effect.
I think this is unlikely. He would need to predict a situation where Ansom stays in the city. Which would mean predicting Charlie, and the tunnels seemed very important to him. If he had a huge exploit I think he would have taken it. Of course, I could still be wrong, and Parson could still win with a night attack.

Fjolnir
2009-01-09, 03:10 AM
he also wasn't truly desparate before, now he's back against the wall and knows it (his odds are MIGHT win with living wanda, WON'T without her), he was confident his tunnel attack trick would work and it does so why would he waste the time and planning to do something that could be more explotable later

teratorn
2009-01-09, 05:33 AM
Actually Tarfu did refer to a 'max stack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html)' whilst trying to break through the Dwagon Fort.

I think he was referring to the bonus. With his presence there, he would maximize the bonus. There were some discussions, namely during the tunnel fight, on the area (volume) a stack can or can't occupy, that is, if there is something similar to smaller hexes and a stack can only cover one of those.

I was thinking that maybe move isn't the only stat that goes to zero at night, combat and defense could go down too. But then, what is the point of keeping armed hobgobwin guards near the table-trio during the night?

Even if night actions are feasible I don't expect much of it. Wanda is out. Parson needs either Maggie to direct the fight, and Maggie needs to sleep, or Sizemore, who probably also needs to rest. Unless Parson'll be the one doing it.

Samargh
2009-01-09, 06:08 AM
Even if night actions are feasible I don't expect much of it. Wanda is out. Parson needs either Maggie to direct the fight, and Maggie needs to sleep, or Sizemore, who probably also needs to rest. Unless Parson'll be the one doing it.

Parson has just stated he was getting ready "to lead this battle".

And if, just as an example, he were to stack with his powerful units like golems, not only would he be the best person to choose targets they could effectivly one-shot, but also the best person to know when to disengage if his stack started taking injuries.

Plus by one-shotting weak units to thin the RCC numbers, he would also get the chance to level personally... would that give his leadership bonus a boost and therefore boost all units in the city?

Whispri
2009-01-09, 06:28 AM
Quite correct, but I think if it was a game winning tactic, Parson would have done it. So I'm going to amend my statement to say, night fighting is either a no-no, or not a huge exploit.


I think this is unlikely. He would need to predict a situation where Ansom stays in the city. Which would mean predicting Charlie, and the tunnels seemed very important to him. If he had a huge exploit I think he would have taken it. Of course, I could still be wrong, and Parson could still win with a night attack.
There are two possible advantages, the chance to use unwounded units before the start of his next turn (not many of those I'm thinking, Twolls have regeneration though) and of course surprise. Now surprise, that could carry a raiding party through to the Siege.

As far as surprise goes, the Tunnel units didn't know what was happening until traps started going off.



I think he was referring to the bonus. With his presence there, he would maximize the bonus. There were some discussions, namely during the tunnel fight, on the area (volume) a stack can or can't occupy, that is, if there is something similar to smaller hexes and a stack can only cover one of those.

I was thinking that maybe move isn't the only stat that goes to zero at night, combat and defense could go down too. But then, what is the point of keeping armed hobgobwin guards near the table-trio during the night?

Even if night actions are feasible I don't expect much of it. Wanda is out. Parson needs either Maggie to direct the fight, and Maggie needs to sleep, or Sizemore, who probably also needs to rest. Unless Parson'll be the one doing it.
No he would'nt, Ansom is stronger and he was staying behind in Tarfu's plan. Oh and the Uncroaked Warlords wouldn't need to replace wounded sent to the courtyard if there were no limits on stack size.

Unless stats have no lower limit, that would actually make it easier for Parson to attack. Lots of weak uncroaked sound a lot more threatening when everything is set to zilch, or twenty, or whatever means 'weakest'.

Wanda is about to be healed and can be carried whilst giving her bonus if it comes to it. And Parson has Uncroaked Warlords in his retinue, 'enter the courtyard and attack, withdraw when the retreat is sounded' seems a pretty straightforward order.

Capt'n Ironbrow
2009-01-09, 05:27 PM
Has anyone of the night-hunters considered that erfworld night-time movement might be restricted to hexes/zones you control/in control of your faction?
Nightly-movement within Gobwin Knob is possible because it's the faction's capital. I guess there might be some night-time promenades in the RCC collumn too.

If that's the case, Parson cannot move his troops from the garrison to the Outer Wall zone where the RCC troops spend the coming night. Parson will at that time not be in control of that zone, hence, he or his troops cannot go there at night.

Lamech
2009-01-09, 06:18 PM
Has anyone of the night-hunters considered that erfworld night-time movement might be restricted to hexes/zones you control/in control of your faction?
Nightly-movement within Gobwin Knob is possible because it's the faction's capital. I guess there might be some night-time promenades in the RCC collumn too.

If that's the case, Parson cannot move his troops from the garrison to the Outer Wall zone where the RCC troops spend the coming night. Parson will at that time not be in control of that zone, hence, he or his troops cannot go there at night.

I've speculated the rules make night fighting impossible. The way I put it was just no fighting at night; for example Parson could walk up to Ansom unmolested, and shoot Ansom in the head to no effect. Of course, no moving in to the wall-zone is possible to.

Hmm... if I'm right Parson could play some serious mind-games.

arkham
2009-01-09, 07:31 PM
I predict one of two circumstances...

1) You can't end turn in a disputed city. You either control all four zones, or you retreat to end turn. This way, the situation cannot arise. The force wall that blocked Jillian from following Stan and the Dragons would stop Parson just as well.

2) Parson can't order the troops into the occupied city zone in the night time. It just can't be done. So he tries to just walk himself there, blade in hand, ready to slice some throats. And finds a force wall between occupied and unoccupied zones. Then relieved that he doesn't have to do the deed, returns to his planning.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-01-12, 11:43 AM
- Ansom ATTACKED the walls. His turn, he's allowed to choose where he fights.
- Wanda REACTED, necessarily moving through Charlie controlled airspace.
Charlie refrained from defending that airspace.
- Ansom and Wanda combat ensued, probably in Charlie controlled airspace. Charlie refrained from intervening.
- Charlie and Ansom allied.
- Charlie finally chose to intercept Wanda.

This is exactly as I had interpreted the action in the comics. There is some wiggle room for argument because of the action one sees taking place in a "turn", but trying to put this action in the context of a TBS this was my assessment as well.

On Charlie: His units are either:
Led by a Commender/are all Commenders;
Led by his ability via the Arcendish;
Led by him via Thinkamancy

They have acted consistently within the rules as described if one of these three assumptions (or some unknown fourth) is correct.


We also know that the maximum stack size is 8, and that both sides have troops in the magnitude of thousands, therefore there will be an awful lot of stacks. I would put it that it is a reasonable assumption that the majority of stacks on both sides will be leaderless.
Incorrect. The maximum stack size bonus happens at 8, and that leads to this being a kind of natural limitation but that is purely based on Rulers playing to this mechanic. There has not been a maximum stack size established within the comic.


And the actual fighting looks more like Real Time Tactics than Turn Based anything.
I believe this is a natural consequence of portraying the action of a TBS in a "real life" format. The comic would be far less interesting if units were simply shown to move near each other and the only text was numbers describing the fighting.