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View Full Version : Vote Up A d20r Class: The Bard (PART 5: Improvisation)



Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 02:15 PM
Hokay, y'all, here's the story: the bard class is something of a conundrum for me. I have some ideas as to what to put on it, but no form or function to their means.

So, as such, I've decided to join the VUA Mob and leave this to the mobs of many.

This is decided: The bard will be a 20 level class with 1st through 6th spellcasting. Bardic music will be included.

Everything else is up to you.

Part 1: Basics
I'm going to expedite the process and start with a couple different things at once: HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Skill Sets, Prowess, and Proficiencies. You get one vote for each category. I've removed what I think is "unreasonable" for each category as well.

PART 1 Complete. Framework below


The Bard
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2| Bardic Performance, Inprovisation, Bardic Knowledge | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3| | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3| | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4| | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4| | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5| | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5| | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6| | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6| | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7| | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7| | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8| | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8| | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9| | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9| | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10| | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10| | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11| | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11| | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12| | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills: 6+Int, 2 Sets + Bard
Prowess: 4
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List, Light Armor
Spellcasting: Spontaneous Charisma-based spellcasting. Table is for spells per day.
Spells Known: 2 learned from Bard list each level. Cantrips known equal to Cha mod.

Part 2: Spellcasting
COMPLETE. Option A selected. Added to the table above.

Part 3: Bardic Music
COMPLETE: Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing. Name being changed to "Bardic Performance" to allow for bards who inspire/terrify via poetics, epic prose, oratory, and other, non-musical means.

Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing
Bardic music in its most base form provides bonuses to allies or penalties to opponents within a radius when activated. These bonuses are based off a perform check done at the time of activation. A bard selects which bonuses or penalties to provide by spending points of this perform check to purchase bonuses or penalties, thereby allowing each performance to be fundamentally different.

Part 4: Bardic Knowledge
COMPLETE. Jack-of-All-Trades option selected, but significant arguments to the contrary have caused me to alter it somewhat..

Jack-of-All-Trades
As a swift action, a bard may spend an Improvisation Point to alter the way he uses skills for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier. While under the effects of this ability, the bard uses either his ranks or half his bard level when using skills, whichever is higher.

Part 5: Improvisation
COMPLETE. A bard gets Level+Int Improvisation, and receives them daily.

Improvisation
A bard, as a true jack-of-all-trades, is capable of improvising in situations where he normally would be outclassed. Starting at first level, a bard receives a number of Improvisation Points equal to his bard level plus his Intelligence modifier each day. He may spend these points (usually as a swift action, but see each ability for details) to activate his other class features. In order to recover Improvisation Points, he must rest for eight hours (but he may recover his Improvisation at the same time he recovers his spellcasting).

Part 6: Improvisation Abilities
You will be voting in two sections.
Part 6a: Improvisation Ability Progression
Vote for ONE:

Option 1:
{table=head]Level | Ability Gain
1 | Bardic Knowledge
2 |
3 |
4 | Ability Selection
5 |
6 |
7 |
8 | Ability Selection
9 |
10 |
11 |
12 | Ability Selection
13 |
14 |
15 |
16 | Ability Selection
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 | Ability Selection[/table]

Option 2:
{table=head]Level | Ability Gain
1 | Bardic Knowledge
2 |
3 |
4 |
5 | Ability Selection
6 |
7 |
8 |
9 |
10 | Ability Selection
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
15 | Ability Selection
16 |
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 | Ability Selection[/table]

Option 3:
{table=head]Level | Ability Gain
1 | Bardic Knowledge
2 |
3 |
4 | Fixed Ability
5 |
6 |
7 |
8 | Fixed Ability
9 |
10 |
11 |
12 | Fixed Ability
13 |
14 |
15 |
16 | Fixed Ability
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 | Fixed Ability[/table]

{table=head]Level | Ability Gain
1 | Bardic Knowledge
2 |
3 |
4 |
5 | Fixed Ability
6 |
7 |
8 |
9 |
10 | Fixed Ability
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
15 | Fixed Ability
16 |
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 | Fixed Ability[/table]

{table=head]Option | Votes
"Every Four" ability choice | 0
"Every Five" ability choice | 0
"Every Four" fixed ability | 0
"Every Five" fixed ability | 0[/table]

Part 6b: Improvisation Abilities
Vote for FIVE:

{table=Head]Ability | Votes
Cha-to-attack for 1 minute | 0
Cha-to-saves for 1 minute | 0
Cha-to-damage for 1 minute | 0
Cha-to-AC for 1 minute | 0
Reroll one failed attack, save, or check | 0
Alter purchased abilities of current bardsong | 0
Counter a sonic-based spell or effect | 0
Next attack is a touch attack | 0
Bardic music lasts additional 1d4+Cha rounds | 0
Echo a spell cast in the last #Cha rounds | 0
Gain the benefits of a feat used in the last #Cha rounds for 1 minute | 0
Extra use of bardic music | 0
Gain proficiency with touched weapon or armor for 1 minute | 0
Add 1d6 to a die roll after seeing the result | 0
Gain extra swift action | 0[/table]

DO NOTE: I reserve the right to ignore the results of votes in the nam16e of balance, though I will attempt to not do this.

THIS VOTE WILL BE OPEN LONGER THAN THE REST FOR THE PURPOSES OF ACCRUING DATA.

Current Vote is open until 12 Noon PST, February 10th.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-07, 02:28 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will:: Average
Skills: 8 + Int mod

No opinion on skills sets or prowess.

Weapons: Simple, one chosen martial

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-07, 02:31 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4

Saves:
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Good

Skills: 6/level

Skill Sets: Bard +any 2

Prowess: 6. [This is perhaps the only choice that needs an explanation. As a jack of all trades, I think a high amount of prowess will represent their versality]

Proficiencies: Simple with a chosen martial.

afroakuma
2009-01-07, 02:33 PM
Welcome to the darkside, Fax.

HD d6
BAB 3:4
Fort Bad
Ref Good
Will Average
Skills 8+Int
Skill Sets 2+Bard
Prowess 4
Proficiencies Simple + 1 chosen Martial.

Morty
2009-01-07, 02:38 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Average
Will: Good
Skills: 6 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 sets + Bard
Prowess: 2
Proficiences: Simple, Fixed Unique Martial List

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 02:50 PM
*records votes, adds disclaimer and end time*

MeklorIlavator
2009-01-07, 02:57 PM
HD d6
BAB 3:4
Fort Bad
Ref Average
Will Good
Skills 6+Int
Skill Sets 2+Bard
Prowess 6
Proficiencies Simple + Fixed Martial list.

Frog Dragon
2009-01-07, 02:58 PM
I'd say

HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Average
Will: Good (I feel that bards are not essentially acrobats and usually have seen the world an experienced things. They are also casters and they do study magic which seems to be a source of understanding and thus a high will save)
Skills: 8+Int
Skill Sets: 2 sets + bard
Prowess: 4
Profiencies: Simple + 1 chosen Martial

My two cents on the matter

Jasdoif
2009-01-07, 03:01 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 1:2
Fort: Bad
Ref: Average
Will: Good
Skills: 8 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 2
Proficiencies: Fixed Unique List

thegurullamen
2009-01-07, 03:05 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Good
Skills: 6 + Int mod
Skill sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4/level
Weapons: Simple, one chosen martial

Vadin
2009-01-07, 03:09 PM
HD d6
BAB 3:4
Fort Bad
Ref Good
Will Good
Skills 8+Int
Skill Sets 2+Bard
Prowess 6
Proficiencies Simple + 1 chosen Martial.

vegetalss4
2009-01-07, 03:11 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Average
Skills: 8 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 sets + Bard
Prowess: 6
Proficiences: Simple, Fixed Unique Martial List

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-01-07, 03:19 PM
I think I'll go with:

HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Average
Will: Good
Skills: 8 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 Sets + Bard
Prowess: 6
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List

Draz74
2009-01-07, 03:27 PM
HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Medium
Will: Good
Skills: 6 + Int mod
Skill sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4/level
Weapons: Simple, one chosen martial or exotic

I always felt like melee was the one major role that 3.5e Core bards couldn't fulfill at all, and that was wrong.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 04:57 PM
Votes tallied through Draz74.

Lert, A.
2009-01-07, 04:58 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Average
Skills: 6+Int
Skill Sets: 2+Bard
Prowess: 4/level
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Martial list.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-07, 05:13 PM
Another has fallen to the siren's call of the VUAx meme...

HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: ⅓HD
Ref: 2+½HD
Will: 2+½HD
Skills: 6+Int
Skill Sets: 2+Bard
Prowess: 6
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-07, 05:26 PM
HD: d6 (they shouldn't be mixing it up in melee too often)
BAB: 3/4 (again, shouldn't be mixing it up in melee too often, but better than a wizard)
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Good
Prowess: 4 (better than a casty-type, but not as much as a rogue/ranger)
Proficencies: Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List (include Rapier and Whip)

MrBojangles
2009-01-07, 05:28 PM
HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Good
Skills: 8 + Int mod
Skill sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4/level
Weapons: Simple, one chosen martial

Magnor Criol
2009-01-07, 05:58 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Average
Ref: Average
Will: Good
Skills: 6 + Int mod
Skill sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4 / level
Weapons: Simple + chosen martial

I'm not really sure about the weapons vote, though.

The Demented One
2009-01-07, 06:49 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Average
Ref: Good
Will: Average
Skills: 8 + Int
Skill Sets: 1+Bard+Sage
Prowess: 6 points
Proficiency: Fixed Unique List

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-07, 07:02 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort Save: Bad
Will Save: Good
Reflex Save: Good
Skills: 8 + INT
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 6
Proficiencies: Fixed Unique List

Also, I think that Instrumental Weapons as an exotic weapon are a must here. Carrying a crossbow in a violin case? Child's play! My Violin is also a Musically-activated Repeating Crossbow!
Or, my Lute doubles as an Execution Axe!
Or, from Flute to Dire Flail in a swift action!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-01-07, 07:12 PM
Or, my Lute doubles as an Execution Axe!

A bard who can claim he plays an axe? I'm sold.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-07, 07:52 PM
A bard who can claim he plays an axe? I'm sold.

I would gladly play this, & I would gladly split heads with this:

http://fasterthantheworld.com/10guitar-battleguitar-thumb.jpg

ErrantX
2009-01-07, 08:30 PM
My votes on the matter.

HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
Fort Save: Bad
Will Save: Good
Reflex Save: Good
Skills: 6 + INT
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 6
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique List

-X

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-07, 10:30 PM
I would gladly play this, & I would gladly split heads with this:

http://fasterthantheworld.com/10guitar-battleguitar-thumb.jpg

I will SHRED you in SEVERAL ways!:smallfurious: (:smallamused:)

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 10:51 PM
Tallied through ErrantX.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-01-07, 10:59 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort Save: Bad
Will Save: Good
Reflex Save: Good
Skills: 6 + INT
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique List

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-08, 12:08 AM
HD d6
BAB 3:4
Fort Bad
Ref Good
Will Average
Skills 6 + Int
Skill Sets 1 + Bard + Sage
Prowess 4 [there's no reason why this class should get more Prowess per level than a Ranger]
Proficiencies Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-08, 12:41 AM
HD: D6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Will: Good
Ref: Average
Skills: 8+Int
Skill Sets: 2+Bard (I'd say 1+B+S, but giving players options=win)
Prowess: 6
Proficiencies:Simple+one chosen martial

The ideal for me for a bard is to give them enough martial ability to take care of themselves in combat, enough covert ability to accompany the rogue (without ruining the heist), and enough magical ability to protect themselves from the same. Beyond that, the focus would be on being 1) a face, 2) a sage, and 3) a buffer. The bard is good enough at everything that you can bring them along without worrying about them dying/alerting the guards/setting off a curse, and then what they bring to the party is useful knowledge about everything and a charming smile.

I know we're still in the first stage, but I would seriously consider making something like knowledge devotion for the group (based on your skills only), or that archivist ability, a part of the bard. Perhaps turning bardic music into something more closely resembling 4e rituals. (Sorry to bring younger editions into this.)

blackspeeker
2009-01-08, 01:10 AM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will:: Good
Skills: 6 + Int mod
Skill Sets:2+bard
Prowess:4
Weapons:Fixed unique list

dariathalon
2009-01-08, 01:27 AM
HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Average
Ref: Average
Will: Average
Skills: 6 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4
Proficiencies: Fixed Unique List

MammonAzrael
2009-01-08, 02:55 AM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort Save: Bad
Ref Save: Average
Will Save: Good
Skills: 6 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 Sets + Bard
Prowess: 4
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List

Fax Celestis
2009-01-08, 02:32 PM
Updated through MammonAzrael.

vegetalss4
2009-01-08, 02:48 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: bad
Ref: good
Will: Average
Skills: 6 + Int
Skill Sets: 2 + Bard
Prowess: 4
Proficiencies: Simple + Fixed Unique List

Lappy9000
2009-01-08, 03:22 PM
HD: d6
BAB: 3:4
Fort: Bad
Ref: Good
Will: Good
Skills: 6 + Int mod
Skill Sets: 2 + bard
Prowess: 4
Weapons: Simple + Fixed unique list

Fax Celestis
2009-01-08, 07:08 PM
Votes recorded through Lappy9000.

Llama231
2009-01-08, 09:19 PM
As with most, i would go with this:
HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Fort: Average
Ref: Average
Will: Average (I feel that bards are not essentially acrobats and usually have seen the world an experienced things. They are also casters and they do study magic which seems to be a source of understanding and thus a high will save)
Skills: 6+Int
Skill Sets: 1 sets + bard
Prowess: 4
Profiencies: Simple + 1 chosen Martial

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 05:35 PM
Tallied through Llama231.

thegurullamen
2009-01-09, 06:07 PM
Isn't the voting closed now?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 06:16 PM
...why so it is. Need to learn to follow my own rules.

One moment while I set up the next vote.

Logged votes
{table=head]HD | Votes
d4 | 0
d6 | 25
d8 | 4[/table]

{table=head]BAB | Votes
1:1 | 0
3:4 | 28
1:2 | 1[/table]

{table=head]Fort Save | Votes
Good (2+1/2 HD) | 0
Average (1+2/5 HD) | 4
Bad (1/3 HD) | 25[/table]

{table=head]Ref Save | Votes
Good (2+1/2 HD) | 18
Average (1+2/5 HD) | 11
Bad (1/3 HD) | 0[/table]

{table=head]Will Save | Votes
Good (2+1/2 HD) | 20
Average (1+2/5 HD) | 10
Bad (1/3 HD) | 0[/table]

{table=head]Skills | Votes
8 + Int | 11
6 + Int | 17
4 + Int | 0[/table]

{table=head]Skill Sets | Votes
2 Sets + Bard | 24
2 Sets + Sage | 0
2 Sets | 0
1 Set + Bard + Sage | 3[/table]

{table=head]Prowess | Votes
6 | 10
4 | 17
2 | 2[/table]

{table=head]Proficiencies | Votes
Simple + Fixed Unique Martial List | 13
Simple + One Chosen Martial | 11
Simple Only | 0
Fixed Unique List | 5[/table]

Fax Celestis
2009-01-09, 07:03 PM
ALRIGHT. Tables set. Spellcasting vote, GO.

thegurullamen
2009-01-09, 07:04 PM
Option C. Enhanced versatility each level.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-09, 07:35 PM
I agree, Option C, is for me,
Not for thee, the other three, can't you see?
It has to be, not D or B, but letter C,
Versatility, is the key,
For bards happy, sing magically,
OMG, I have to pee.
:biggrin:

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-09, 10:51 PM
I agree, Option C, is for me,
Not for thee, the other three, can't you see?
It has to be, not D or B, but letter C,
Versatility, is the key,
For bards happy, sing magically,
OMG, I have to pee.
:biggrin:

Nice rhyme Zeta.

Unfortunately, I don't understand 3.Xe-style magic enough to make an educated vote.

Llama231
2009-01-09, 11:13 PM
Option A for me.
It seems the most bard-like.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-01-09, 11:18 PM
Either A or B. I don't like the fact that an entire spell level sits empty for meta-magic purposes only in options C and D.

Lert, A.
2009-01-09, 11:23 PM
Option C.

Always hated how a non-full progression casters can't meta-magic his spells effectively when at the top of their game. It's not like the lower level spells are going to break the game like a meta'd 8th or 9th level spell would.

Jasdoif
2009-01-09, 11:45 PM
I'm going for Option A.

In the interests of having bardic music being the primary focus of the class, I'm willing to stunt the spell progression at the last few levels to allow for a (stronger) music-related capstone. And I like the easier bookkeeping (or at least decision process) of the psionic-esque learning arrangement.

Draz74
2009-01-09, 11:48 PM
I'm going for Option A.

In the interests of having bardic music being the primary focus of the class, I'm willing to stunt the spell progression at the last few levels to allow for a (stronger) music-related capstone. And I like the easier bookkeeping (or at least decision process) of the psionic-esque learning arrangement.

Seconded. Option A.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-09, 11:53 PM
Option A

Essentially, what Jasdoif said, I'm more interested in the bard having strong special abilities than enhanced spellcasting. Option A's expanded spell list allows more versatility than option B, which is good, and takes up less of the bard's power budget for spellcasting, which is also good. While the idea of having 7th level slots for metamagic is very interesting, it is a clear raise in the power of bardic spellcasting.

On the matter of giving the bard an easier time with metamagic, I was never sure why it was useful to make spontaneous casters spend more time to metamagic a spell. If that were done away with (if it would be unbalancing for free, perhaps with a feat), then that would help. Additionally, setting up a bard's spell list to take advantage of metamagic isn't too hard (extend spell FTW).

Frog Dragon
2009-01-10, 06:49 AM
Option A

What they said.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-10, 10:21 AM
Option C, Please

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-10, 10:26 AM
Option C, for all those reasons for A and that the bard should get 7th-level slots. Like somebody else said, it's not exactly game-breaking.

Solaris
2009-01-10, 10:45 AM
Methinketh, Option C. I've always thought of a bard's magic as music, personally... so more versatility, if'n you please.

Fredthefighter
2009-01-10, 11:00 AM
Option C, because I can, and can begins with C.

TengYt
2009-01-10, 11:53 AM
I choose you, Charizard! Who's name begins with C! Which is also my vote! C!

Morty
2009-01-10, 11:56 AM
Another vote for Option C, but there should be an option to replace old spells with higher-level ones, methinks.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-10, 01:21 PM
Another vote for Option C, but there should be an option to replace old spells with higher-level ones, methinks.

We'll get to that with abilities.

EDIT: Tallied through Mort.

vegetalss4
2009-01-10, 01:54 PM
I vote A here's your ten characters

Fax Celestis
2009-01-10, 08:43 PM
Updated tally.

The Demented One
2009-01-10, 09:07 PM
Option A sounds good to me.

afroakuma
2009-01-10, 09:17 PM
I will formally side with option A. Not a fan of bardic metamagic.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-10, 11:00 PM
Afro:

Why don't you approve of bardic metamagic? I would think as masters of improvisation and fonts of inspiration, the bard would be great at altering their spells.

afroakuma
2009-01-10, 11:08 PM
Spoilered; please don't read unless you've already voted.

Many bard spells already feature internal improvisation or deft usage (enchantments and illusions, for example) and their spell use, in and of itself, is a single skillset that lends itself as an element in their jack-of-all-trades tradition. It's not that I object so strenuously to it; rather I think that mechanically the flavor should be reserved to sorcerers (who improvise with their natural talents) and wizards (who can apply scholarly process to the formation of their spells) to help define what sets that niveau of arcane practice apart, beyond simple spell selection/levels.

Bandededed
2009-01-11, 12:36 AM
I think that option C will do very nicely indeed.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-11, 05:46 PM
A. Spellcasting isn't too important for bards, and many of their spells don't benefit much from traditional metamagic. Give me more power in Bardic unique abilities.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-11, 06:33 PM
Tally updated. We appear to be at an impasse.

afroakuma
2009-01-11, 06:35 PM
If it will fix your schedule, I will surrender my position.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-11, 10:02 PM
We've got seventeen hours. Let's see what happens.

Shades of Gray
2009-01-11, 10:04 PM
A, for the reasons already mentioned...

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-11, 10:17 PM
I concur with the others who have selected A, so I will choose A too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 01:01 PM
I vote Option C

In my opinion, a Bard is an all-round utility guy who improvises his way to sheer genius (see also: Miles Vorkosigan).

I guess it would depend on what kind of metamagic we're talking about. I mean, I don't see a Bard tossing around Fireballs, but I could easily see a Bard using metamagic to use music to enhance his magic. I also could see the Bard using Metamagic to Widen, Enlarge, or Reach his magic; specifically augmenting buffs.

I always saw a Bard's shtick to be group buffing, so I always saw the Bard being able to apply metamagic to be able to Reach/Chain magic to affect the whole party at once.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-12, 03:08 PM
Tossing in another for option A.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 03:14 PM
VOTE CLOSED. Tallying now. Please Stand By for Part 3.

Recorded Votes:

{table=head]Option | Votes
A | 13
B | 0
C | 11
D | 0[/table]

Option A
Spontaneous Casting: Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
[/table]
Spells known: 2 learned each level, Cantrips known equal to Cha mod.

Notes: Easier, more fluid spell learning method, but more spells known overall.

Option B
Spontaneous Casting: Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
[/table]

Spells Known:
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | -
10 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
13 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | -
14 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | -
15 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
16 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
17 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
18 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
19 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
20 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
[/table]

Notes: More like the original bard class.

Option C
Spontaneous Casting: Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
1 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
9 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
10 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
11 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
12 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
13 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
14 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
15 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
16 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
18 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
19 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
[/table]

Spells known: 2 learned each level, Cantrips known equal to Cha mod.

Notes: Easier, more fluid spell learning method, but more spells known overall, as option A. 7TH SPELLS ARE FOR METAMAGIC ONLY AND FOR SPELL LIST SYMMETRY.

Option D
Spontaneous Casting: Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
1 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
9 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
10 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
11 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
12 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
13 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
14 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
15 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
16 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
17 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
18 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
19 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
20 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
[/table]

Spells Known:
{table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | - | -
10 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -
13 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | -
14 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | -
15 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
16 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
17 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
18 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
19 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
20 | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
[/table]

Notes: Like the original bard class, like Option B. 7TH SPELLS ARE FOR METAMAGIC ONLY AND FOR SPELL LIST SYMMETRY.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 03:35 PM
Part 3a ready! VOET.

Lert, A.
2009-01-12, 03:42 PM
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing gets my vote since I think the bard shouldn't have to sink skill points into Perform skills.

Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing comes in second.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 03:55 PM
Tough choice...

I'd have to go with: Level-Based Buffs/Debuffs and Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing.

Reasoning: It's too darn easy to boost skills to get some stupid results, making Perform-Based Buffing/Debuffing and Purchase-based Buffing/Debuffing too potentially overpowering. Unless you have some way of nerfing/negating Skill Level Creep. The purchasing idea is nifty, if we can keep it balanced. I like the idea

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 04:01 PM
TWO votes, people.

Frog Dragon
2009-01-12, 04:01 PM
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing. What they said. Skill based is too easy to abuse, but I have an idea if you're willing to take a look.

You could have "bardic schools" or somesuch for each line of performing. Different abilitied for stringed, dance, sing you get the idea. They could have sort of a purchase system with which you at some level get another bardic song. Each bardic song has prequisites in the rom of perform ranks of the appropriate type. That leaves out most of the abuse with making the bonuses level based, but getting the abilities rank based. How does that sound?

So basically I would say Perform Based Buffing/Debuffing for getting abilities
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing for using them

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:05 PM
Vote 1) Level-Based Buffing
Vote 2) Purchase-Based Buffing

I don't think bards should be in the debuff business. Except through their spells.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-01-12, 04:17 PM
I'll go for Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing and Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing. I don't usually picture the basic bard as a debuffer, but since this isn't going to be a "basic" bard.... :smallwink:

Many bard PrCs focus on sonic, mind-affecting, and fear affects that I feel could be built in to the bard from the beginning. I'd rather see a bard who can both buff and debuff with bardic music, focusing on more utilitarian spells, than one who can only buff with bardic music who would tend to pick many offensive/debuff spells.

Jasdoif
2009-01-12, 04:23 PM
I'm going for Purchase-Based Buffing and Perform-Based Buffing. With a preference towards purchase-based if it matters anywhere; I find the concept intriguing, and it would potentially allow fine-tuning individual bonuses, rather than having to accept larger fixed sets as a group. (To make an example using the standard bard's music abilities, say you wanted the bonus hit dice from the standard Inspire Greatness and the bonus to saves from the standard Inspire Heroics.)

As for why not level-based, well, it seems silly to me that how well you can play an instrument would have no bearing on how effective your music with that instrument could be. Issues with how skill bonuses increase can be handled by increasing progressive costs to offset the expected rate of gain.

I chose against debuffs because I see the music as a party support capability, and not one that relies on having opposing combatants to be useful. Besides which, the spellcasting should be useful for inflicting penalties.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 04:34 PM
As for why not level-based, well, it seems silly to me that how well you can play an instrument would have no bearing on how effective your music with that instrument could be. Issues with how skill bonuses increase can be handled by increasing progressive costs to offset the expected rate of gain. And a +20 to Perform magic item will blow your curve to heck and back. There are all KINDS of ways, including a few infinite loops if GM's aren't careful, of jacking up skill checks to insane levels.


I chose against debuffs because I see the music as a party support capability, and not one that relies on having opposing combatants to be useful. Besides which, the spellcasting should be useful for inflicting penalties.

I would disagree with you on this, because I feel that a Bard shoiuld be able to be an effective battlefield control specialist, with his music demoralizing opponents and his magic crippling them.

That's just me, of course.

Morty
2009-01-12, 05:53 PM
I vote for Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing and Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-12, 05:55 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing
Perform-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Because a Bard should help allies based on how well they sing/play/hum/dance, not based on how long they have maintained their profession.

Jasdoif
2009-01-12, 05:55 PM
And a +20 to Perform magic item will blow your curve to heck and back. There are all KINDS of ways, including a few infinite loops if GM's aren't careful, of jacking up skill checks to insane levels.Fair enough; however I feel that if skill check results are getting out of hand, it's the skill check itself that needs to be addressed, even if there weren't special abilities reliant on it. (As an aside, what would be the result of an infinite or arbitrarily high result on a Perform check, anyway? War ravages the entire multiverse as deities and their servants fight over who will acquire your services for their next ostentatious ceremony?)

If that's infeasible, something like the explicit list of allowed modifiers on cartomancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92729) could allow for a progression close to level-based for single-class bards, while allowing multiclass bards to continue advancing their (basic) bardic music.

Mercenary Pen
2009-01-12, 07:23 PM
Vote 1) Level-Based Buffing
Vote 2) Purchase-Based Buffing

I don't think bards should be in the debuff business. Except through their spells.

Check the oots guest-strips for a debuff bard.

Spoilered to prevent silly idea influencing people- DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU HAVE VOTED, OR YOU WILL BE FED TO THE HUNGRY SARRUKH
Besides, Inspire Discord should fit neatly alongside all the other bardic inspirations.

That said, I'll vote for level-based and perform-based buffing/debuffing.

The Demented One
2009-01-12, 07:31 PM
Purchase-based Buffing/Debuffing and Level-based Buffing/Debuffing for me

Arbitrarity
2009-01-12, 07:34 PM
Purchase Based Buff/Debuff and Purchase Based Buff.

More flexibility is good. Very good. I'd prefer buff/debuff, but both work for me.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-12, 08:07 PM
Purchase Based Buffing/Debuffing
Purchase Based Buffing

I think it's pretty safe to assume that perform checks for bardic music will not be allowed to gain bonuses from anything but actual ranks, synergy bonuses, charisma bonuses, and possibly skill focus: perform.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-12, 08:10 PM
Or, make the scaling non-linear, so that huge checks aren't as game-breaking.

Actually, Fax, how are you planning on handling Epic play or similar? Is there an effective level "cap", or do you need math to extent infinitely?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 08:25 PM
Purchase Based Buffing/Debuffing
Purchase Based Buffing

I think it's pretty safe to assume that perform checks for bardic music will not be allowed to gain bonuses from anything but actual ranks, synergy bonuses, charisma bonuses, and possibly skill focus: perform.

How are you planning on limiting this? For that matter, what about spells like Insight which grant bonuses to skill checks?

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-12, 08:37 PM
I expect Fax will do like he did with cartomancy and simply state flat out that spells and items cannot boost your perform check when using it for bardic music.

See also: This Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92729), which someone posted earlier. Scroll down to the part in the OP where it says "Cartomancy (Cha; Trained Only)" and check the spoiler. Under the heading of "Special" Fax makes it clear that items and spells cannot affect the skill at all.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-12, 08:48 PM
Perform-Based Buffing/Debuffing. Sorry, no song this time, as that did not help my vote win anyway.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-12, 08:50 PM
How are you planning on limiting this?

By saying so.

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-12, 09:15 PM
Two votes, zeta.
For myself, perform-based or purchase-based buffing.
Leave the debuffing for feats and PrCs; a debuff bard is possible, but not the basic idea.

Though if their instrument is accordion, I would just skip the buffs and go straight to debuffs. No one likes the accordion.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 09:17 PM
I expect Fax will do like he did with cartomancy and simply state flat out that spells and items cannot boost your perform check when using it for bardic music.

See also: This Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92729), which someone posted earlier. Scroll down to the part in the OP where it says "Cartomancy (Cha; Trained Only)" and check the spoiler. Under the heading of "Special" Fax makes it clear that items and spells cannot affect the skill at all.

So how is this any different than level-based, if the only thing you take into account is stat + rank? Since any bard is going to keep his perform maxed, it all boils down to the same thing.

Kroy
2009-01-12, 09:20 PM
Level-Based Buffing (Hardest to cheese, best for balance)
Edit: Just saw you needed two:
Perform-Based Buffing

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-12, 09:21 PM
It can (and will, if we pick it) be as different as it should be. Fax is clever.

Also, not all bards will max out Perform. The optimized ones will, but that is not all of them.

MeklorIlavator
2009-01-12, 09:22 PM
Perhaps he'll do something like Kellus's truenaming fix(here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961))? There are things that can improve the rating, but they aren't available for everything/one, and some have a cost(and opportunity cost, but a cost none the less).

Arbitrarity
2009-01-12, 09:51 PM
So how is this any different than level-based, if the only thing you take into account is stat + rank? Since any bard is going to keep his perform maxed, it all boils down to the same thing.

But there is no "purchase based" option based on level. I like my flexibility.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-13, 02:19 AM
So how is this any different than level-based, if the only thing you take into account is stat + rank? Since any bard is going to keep his perform maxed, it all boils down to the same thing.

There's a D20 roll, although this really shouldn't count because you could easily just introduce a D20 roll wherever you needed it.
It further reinforces charisma as the bard's primary stat (see above)
It encourages (or forces) bards to actually have some skill invested in perform. This is kind of meh in that it basically means bards have 5+int skill points/level instead of 6+int, but it's important for some people.
It allows the rules to give varying music lists to bards with different perform skills, kind of like what they did with the Pathfinder bard. A singer might get a different list than an instrumentalist, or you could have someone who does both, or a singer who took 5 ranks in perform: dance because they wanted to be able to use a low-level dancer ability.

Now, to be perfectly honest, it's the last option that's the real reason. Also, what Arbitrarity said.

vegetalss4
2009-01-13, 02:24 AM
level-Based Buffing
Purchase-Based Buffing

Fako
2009-01-13, 07:24 AM
Level-Based Buffing and Purchase-Based Buffing

MammonAzrael
2009-01-13, 12:26 PM
Performance based Buffing
Purchase based buffing

Fax Celestis
2009-01-13, 12:41 PM
Votes tallied through MammonAzrael.

Daracaex
2009-01-13, 04:37 PM
1) Purchase-based Buffing
2) Level-based Buffing

I really like the idea of the purchase-base because it seems like it will add a lot of flexibility to the class. I would have voted for both purchase-based options, but I realized d20r already has a debuffer (the Monk) which I really like and there's no reason we should step on its toes too much.

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-14, 12:45 AM
1- Level-based buffing
2- Perform-based buffing

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 05:03 PM
Tally updated.

lesser_minion
2009-01-15, 08:47 AM
I think I'd probably go with Purchase-based Buffing and Purchase Based Buffing/Debuffing

I like the purchase idea, and I think this definitely needs a spot in the class. As for buffing and debuffing, I'd probably like to see debuffs in the class - I just think that makes sense for a supernaturally talented musician.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-16, 10:30 AM
*impatiently waits for part 3b*

Fax Celestis
2009-01-16, 03:42 PM
VOTING CLOSED. Final tallying...

ARCHIVED VOTES
Part 3a: Bardic Music
{table=head]Option | Votes
Level-Based Buffing | 6
Perform-Based Buffing | 4
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing | 7
Perform-Based Buffing/Debuffing | 4
Purchase-Based Buffing | 9
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing | 9[/table]

New vote is up! Three options (Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing, Purchase-Based Buffing, Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing), choose one.

Jasdoif
2009-01-16, 03:47 PM
I'm going to go for Purchase-Based Buffing. Again.

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-16, 03:51 PM
Given the choices, I'm going to have to go with Purchase-Based Buffing too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-16, 03:55 PM
Since I assume you'll put in some limiting factor, like you did with Cartomancy, I will go with

Purchase-based Buffing/Debuffing

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 03:58 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing.

Morty
2009-01-16, 03:58 PM
I'll go with Purchase-based Buffing/Debuffing. It sounds interesting.

Fredthefighter
2009-01-16, 03:59 PM
Purchase-based Buffing/Debuffing.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-16, 04:26 PM
Purchase based Buff/Debuff.

Lert, A.
2009-01-16, 06:08 PM
Level-based Buffing/Debuffing.

A ninja stands alone, yet alone he has strength.

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-16, 06:19 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing. The monk can handle the debuffing just fine.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-16, 07:15 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

lesser_minion
2009-01-16, 07:30 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Llama231
2009-01-16, 07:37 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

The Bookworm
2009-01-16, 08:01 PM
Purchased Based Buffing/Debuffing!

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-16, 08:08 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Kroy
2009-01-17, 01:23 AM
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Limos
2009-01-17, 01:37 AM
I'll vote for Purchase based Buffing/debuffing

Daracaex
2009-01-17, 04:43 AM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Yeah, I changed my mind. I'm deciding to trust that Fax will come up with something to avoid encroaching on the Monk's territory.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-17, 03:10 PM
Votes tallied. Thanks, Daracaex.

Frog Dragon
2009-01-17, 05:41 PM
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing

Fax Celestis
2009-01-19, 08:50 PM
VOTES TALLIED. PURCHASE BASED IS THE VICTOR.

New vote up: Bardic Knowledge!

Part 3b: Bardic Music
{table=head]Option | Votes
Level-Based Buffing/Debuffing | 2
Purchase-Based Buffing | 4
Purchase-Based Buffing/Debuffing | 12[/table]

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-19, 09:22 PM
I like the Jack-of-all-trades option, especially since it makes all skills trained for the bard. This gives him a pseudo-bardic knowledge since he can make any knowledge check without investing any ranks.

A point of clarification: would the x/day 1/2 level bonus allow the bard to use skills untrained?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-19, 09:34 PM
A point of clarification: would the x/day 1/2 level bonus allow the bard to use skills untrained?

Yes, it would.

Jasdoif
2009-01-19, 10:38 PM
I vote for Uses Per Day.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-19, 10:46 PM
Chalk one up for Jack-of-All-Trades, if you please.

MammonAzrael
2009-01-19, 10:57 PM
I like the Jack of All Trades. It really helps the bard shine as a skill monkey, while not overshadowing the monkeys that get 8 skill points a level.

vegetalss4
2009-01-20, 03:24 AM
I vote for level-based pseudo knowledge

Daracaex
2009-01-20, 03:39 AM
May I ask for clarification on the "Free Skill Points" option? Are these regular skill points added to the ones you usually get or a pool that you can swap around to different skills? If they're just regular skill points, can I suggest an option of having a pool of points available that you can allocate to skills as regular skill points daily or a certain number of times daily or after doing some action?

Ashtagon
2009-01-20, 03:51 AM
I vote option 4, adding a bonus to skil checks a number of times per day.

Additional limitation: It can only be used on a specified subset of skills, primarily Knowledge (and maybe not all of those) skills, but possibly also spellcraft/aracana/use magic device skills too.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-20, 03:59 AM
A question on level-based pseudo-knowledge. Assuming this option, can the bard use this as any knowledge skill? Meaning, if you're making a "knowledge: the planes" check, can you use bardic knowledge exactly as if it were that skill? Or would it only be useful for a certain type of information? Does it qualify your for learning things that would normally require training in a certain knowledge skill? Also, can you double-up a bardic knowledge check and a check with the relevant skill?

Also, regarding the DC increase with that option, keep in mind that the check is already effectively at -3 compared to an actual skill check.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-20, 10:22 AM
May I ask for clarification on the "Free Skill Points" option? Are these regular skill points added to the ones you usually get or a pool that you can swap around to different skills? If they're just regular skill points, can I suggest an option of having a pool of points available that you can allocate to skills as regular skill points daily or a certain number of times daily or after doing some action?

They're regular, free skill points spent at level up.
A question on level-based pseudo-knowledge. Assuming this option, can the bard use this as any knowledge skill? Meaning, if you're making a "knowledge: the planes" check, can you use bardic knowledge exactly as if it were that skill? Or would it only be useful for a certain type of information? Does it qualify your for learning things that would normally require training in a certain knowledge skill? Also, can you double-up a bardic knowledge check and a check with the relevant skill?

Also, regarding the DC increase with that option, keep in mind that the check is already effectively at -3 compared to an actual skill check.

Yes, yes, and no.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-20, 11:43 AM
Alright, well my vote goes to Level-Based Pseudo-Knowledges.

Bandededed
2009-01-20, 11:44 AM
Jack-of-all Trades, If you please

Daracaex
2009-01-20, 11:52 AM
Jack-of-All Tades

lesser_minion
2009-01-20, 12:23 PM
Option 4 - Uses Per Day

Draz74
2009-01-20, 12:35 PM
Uses Per Day (I love the similar mechanic on the Factotum, so ...)

bue52
2009-01-20, 01:58 PM
I'd vote for Free Skill Points, it allows the bard builds to differ and it would be a nice minor for the bards to be different.

teamfireyleader
2009-01-20, 03:47 PM
Jack of all trades

Fredthefighter
2009-01-20, 03:59 PM
Level-Based Pseudo-knowledges

Lert, A.
2009-01-20, 04:23 PM
Jack of all trades

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-20, 05:50 PM
Okay, here's my viewpoint...

I don't believe in the extra skill points, that's stepping on the rogue too much.

I don't believe in the jack of all trades, because this lets him also do things like Cartomancy and also step on the Rogue's toes by 'simulating' learned-only skills like Disable Device and Open Locks which are not on the Bard list.

That leaves me with times a day bonus to skill check, which is pretty good, but still possibly breakable with things like Cartomancy and replacing the Rogue, or the level-based knowledge checks.

I vote level-based psudo-knowledge.

Personally, I'd like to see it as an improvement of the synergy bonuses, giving a bonus to all knowledge skills that he has at least one rank in equal to the number of knowledge skills he has more than x ranks in (+1 at 5 ranks, +2 at 10 ranks, +3 at 15 ranks, +4 at 20 ranks). So if he's got 10 ranks in one and 5 ranks in another, he gets a total +3 synergy bonus to every knowledge check he has at least one rank in.

Kroy
2009-01-20, 06:44 PM
Defiantly Jack of All Trades

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-20, 09:17 PM
Jack of All Trades; a bard knows some of everything. Why shouldn't he be able to do a little Magic Device Using and Cartomancy?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-20, 09:29 PM
Jack of All Trades; a bard knows some of everything. Why shouldn't he be able to do a little Magic Device Using and Cartomancy?

Mostly because I'm worried about him becoming the Batman Bard, making every other non-caster class obsolete in every category...

thevorpalbunny
2009-01-21, 12:30 AM
He has it at half ranks. Anyone who tries will be better than twice as good as him. No risk of becoming Batman.
Also, Fax is too good of a designer for that. If it was clearly too powerful, ey would invoke the "ignoring votes for power level reasons" clause.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-21, 10:33 AM
Votes tallied.

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-21, 04:56 PM
Mostly because I'm worried about him becoming the Batman Bard, making every other non-caster class obsolete in every category...

I agree... and I'm also voting for Level-Based Pseudo-Knowledges.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 06:30 PM
VOTING CLOSED. Tallying...


{table=head]Option | Votes
Level-Based Pseudo-knowledges | 5
Free Skill Points | 1
Jack-of-All-Trades | 9
Uses Per Day | 4[/table]

Fax Celestis
2009-01-22, 06:43 PM
NEW VOTE UP. Open until Jan 29th. GOGOGO.

Al-Ashrad
2009-01-22, 07:52 PM
Considering this got the "Jack of all Trades" ability, I'm going to go with...

3/4ths Level + Cha, recharged Daily.

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-22, 07:55 PM
A: 3/4 + INT

B: Encounter

C:

Add his charisma modifier to a single attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw. (Either instead of the normal stat or in addition, whichever promotes better balance).
Add his charisma modifier to AC against a single attack.
Reroll one d20 roll. (possibly at a penalty. Or you could get complicated and have, for example, -8 but +CHA to the roll)
Allow the bard to cast a single spell without interrupting their bard song.
Repurchase effects given by the bard's current song. (Based on having purchase-based bardic music. There could be some limit on how many points can be swapped, CHA or CHA+#, for example)


I like having power systems that are dual-stat based. I chose INT for uses and CHA for power because I feel that this helps really cement charisma as the bard's primary attribute (in 3.5, a lot of bards got 16 CHA for spell levels then forgot the stat). Also, I think it makes a bit more sense for charisma to govern how effective your improvisations are, while intelligence governs how many windows of opportunity you spot or how many clever ways to apply your strengths you can think up.

The options I gave in C were designed to be balanced for an X/encounter system, but this does mean that the bard will basically have Jack-of-all-Trades up whenever they want to for any skill-based challenges, rather than activating it being a decision they'll ever think twice about (unless you have skill checks in combat).

Llama231
2009-01-22, 08:00 PM
Level+Int, and Encounter.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-22, 09:36 PM
5a: Level + Cha

5b:Per Encounter

5c:

Grant bonus to attack/damage to all allies (sliding scale to increase number of points), this is a Sonic Mind-Affecting Morale bonus

Grant penalty to attack/damage to all enemies (no save, no SR. This is a sonic mind-affecting morale penalty, sliding scale as above to increase penalty size)

Countersong: Blow <improv point/s> to counter any sonic effect

Demoralize: May spend <point/s> to make a Perform check instead of an Intimidate check to demoralize. Possible sliding scale to affect multiple opponents

Distracting Song: Spend <point/s> to force opponent caster to make a Concentration check vs Bard's Perform check or loose spell. Must have action readied to perform this, much like Counterspell.

Rally: Spend <point/s> to negate fear effects or morale penalties

Glibness: Spend <point/s> to bypass Compel Truth/Zone of Truth/Detect Lies. No bonus on Bluff check, though.

Facinate: yea, like the Bardic Music thing

Suggestion: See above. Spend on sliding scale to include multiple targets.

Lert, A.
2009-01-23, 12:55 AM
5a: How many Improvisation Points does a bard have?
One per bard level, plus his Intelligence modifier

5b. How does a bard recharge Improvisation Points?
Recharged over time, regardless of rest

5c. What does an Improvisation Point do?
Charisma to saves for x rounds
Charisma to defense for x rounds
Grant allies bonus to attack, skill roll, or saves for 1 round
Give penalties to enemy's skill rolls or saves
Special attack: reduce enemy's speed 10'
Special attack: remove armor bonus for 1 round

That's all for now.

Bandededed
2009-01-23, 01:15 AM
A: 3/4 Level + Cha

B: Per Encounter

C: Swift action to spend points unless otherwise noted

Add Cha to attack roll for x round / point
Add Cha to saves for x round / point

Add +1d6 / 6 lvls (min 1d6) to next attack
Next save is made as if you had Evasion or Mettle [immediate action]

Echo: The effects of your current Bardic Performance last an extra 1d4+cha rounds. [move action]

Lordsmoothe
2009-01-23, 01:24 AM
Fax: It occurs to me that you may want to further subdivide section A when calculating the final tally. It is essentially asking 2 questions:

Int or Cha?
1/level, or 3/4ths?

As the question is posed right now, it's possible for any of those positions to have the majority, but still get voted out. Say 10 people want Cha, and only 6 want Int, but the 10 are divided halfway between 1/level and 3/4ths while the 6 are all for 1/level? level+Int wins, but there was definitely more support for Cha as the deciding attribute.

You don't actually need to alter the voting, because all the information is already in everyone's votes, you just might want to count Int VS. Cha separately from 1/level VS. 3/4ths.

Just my thoughts.

vegetalss4
2009-01-23, 03:22 AM
5a:
One per bard level, plus his Intelligence modifier

5b.
Recharged over time, regardless of rest

5c.
no ideas

lesser_minion
2009-01-24, 07:03 AM
5a. Level + Int modifier

5b. Recharge on their own, regardless of rest.

5c. Possibilities:


Buff saving throw DCs for a performance or a spell (either add Cha or heighten for free)
Gain a small bonus to performances
Could be overpowered: replace an ability check with 1/2 level + ability
Extend a bardic performance
Cast a spell using a modified version of Expanded Knowledge (not sure about this one)
Allow an extra performance

Frog Dragon
2009-01-24, 07:15 AM
5a. Three every four bard levels (like the way a rogue gains BAB), plus his Intelligence modifier
5b. Daily. Tied to rest
5c.
- Gain profiency with a touched weapon for a limited amount of time.
- Imitate a feat a nearby creature used last turn to get the benefit of said feat for a turn (might be overpowered)
- Gain double bonus from helping when making a skill check.
These are my suggestions. I didn't see them earlier in the thread

bue52
2009-01-24, 11:52 AM
a: One per bard level, plus his Intelligence modifier

b: Recharged over time, regardless of rest

c: I think one think that can be done for the improvisation power is to be able to gain a special boost to skills, that can spend one point for non-combat scenarios, I think you can also use it to allow the bard to combat using his skills instead of his raw stats maybe? So maybe he can substitute his raw stats for a skill that is based on that stat say, Stealth has a skill point of 24, so instead of using his DEX which is 17, he spends a improvisation point and he gets to use his skill level as though it were his DEX score (note: Not DEX bonus) so he gets to gain a greater bonus in combat than he usually can.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-24, 12:34 PM
5a: 1/level + INT

5b: Recharge after an extended rest (Daily)

5c: (sorry if any of these have already come up)
- Make a Concentration check to continue Bardic Performance and make an attack or cast a spell.
- Improve the impact of a Bardic Performance for 1 round.
- Add CHA bonus to a Concentration check.
- Gain CHA bonus to a Knowledge check OR make a Gather Information check and substitute the roll during a Knowledge check.

Thats all I got for now, Fax.

Flickerdart
2009-01-24, 07:51 PM
5. a) Level + INT, so we can have Improv bards and Casting bards be different archetypes if they so desire.
b) Daily.
c) -Add CHA mod to skill check, to hit or damage before damage is calculated.
-Add +1 to the die roll AFTER it has been rolled.
-Recommendation: Reserve feats for Improv points.

The Demented One
2009-01-24, 07:55 PM
5a: Level + Int
5b: Daily
5c: Gain temporary ranks in a skill (Jack-of-all-Trades-y)
Spontaneously cast a spell from another class's list
Gain temporary prowess
Buy extra actions (for a whole bunch of points)

Kroy
2009-01-26, 07:19 PM
Level + Int
Daily
Edit:
At the cost of one Improvisation Point, the bard may gain his Cha added onto a single save in addition to his normal ability.
Edit2:Ninja'd!

Kroy
2009-01-31, 05:48 PM
fax, are you going to update? It's over 2 days past the deadline...

Fax Celestis
2009-01-31, 05:51 PM
...why so it is. I'll...update shortly.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-05, 12:33 PM
COMPLETE. Now for Part Six! 5a: How many Improvisation Points does a bard have?
One per bard level, plus his Intelligence modifier
One per bard level, plus his Charisma modifier
Three every four bard levels (like the way a rogue gains BAB), plus his Intelligence modifier
Three every four bard levels (like the way a rogue gains BAB), plus his Charisma modifier

{table=head]Option | Votes
Level + Int | 9
Level + Cha | 1
3/4ths Level + Int | 2
3/4ths Level + Cha | 2[/table]

5b. How does a bard recharge Improvisation Points?
Daily: Rest and preparation, like spells (or with spells)
Per encounter: five minutes rest
Recharged over time, regardless of rest

{table=head]Option | Votes
Daily | 6
Per Encounter | 4
Recharge | 4[/table]

NEW VOTE UP GOGOGO.

Fredthefighter
2009-02-05, 12:37 PM
Every four: Ability choice. Just seems like a better option, plus it fits the bard's carefree and chaotic nature.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-05, 05:35 PM
I vote Every Four, Ability Choice. I agree with the previous, it fits the Bard's more chaotic nature, and it also allows a bit of customization. Want to play a Bard with a rapier wit and rapier blade? Might want to pick up Cha to Attacks and Damage. Want to 'twist' musical songs? Pick up increased music duration.

I reserve the right to vote for individual skills in a separate post, as I think they are all awesome!

MammonAzrael
2009-02-05, 06:09 PM
I'm going to agree with Every Four: Ability Choice as the best option.

As for the other abilities...I must ponder them. And wouldn't it be better to offer more than 5 abilities, so you could customize your Bard more (assuming Ability Choice won)?

Oh, and you probably want to update the title of the thread. :smallsmile:

The Demented One
2009-02-05, 06:33 PM
Option 3 (Fixed/Every 4)

Abilities

Cha-to-damage for 1 minute
Alter purchased abilities of current bardsong
Reroll one failed attack, save, or check
Echo a spell cast in the last #Cha rounds
Gain proficiency with touched weapon or armor for 1 minute

Fax Celestis
2009-02-05, 06:37 PM
And wouldn't it be better to offer more than 5 abilities, so you could customize your Bard more (assuming Ability Choice won)? I just want to see which options people like best so I can build more around those.


Oh, and you probably want to update the title of the thread. :smallsmile:
I can't. Thread's over 28 days old. I sent a PM to Roland to see about changing it.

Kroy
2009-02-05, 07:09 PM
Option 1, Every four: Ability choice

Human Paragon 3
2009-02-05, 10:43 PM
6a. Option 3 (Fixed Ability every 4 levels)

6b.
+1d6 to a die roll
Proficiency with a weapon or armor
Extra use of Bardic Music
Ecco a Spell Cast
Next attack is a touch attack

lesser_minion
2009-02-06, 04:45 PM
6a. Ability Choice, every four levels
6b.
Bardic music lasts an extra d4+Cha rounds
Counter a sonic-based effect (duelling bards ftw!)
Extra use of bardic music
Alter purchased abilities of current performance
Wield a weapon or armour proficiently for one minute

Lordsmoothe
2009-02-07, 04:46 PM
Choice Every Four Levels

Cha-to-saves for 1 minute
Alter purchased abilities of current bardsong
Echo a spell cast in the last #Cha rounds
Gain the benefits of a feat used in the last #Cha rounds for 1 minute
Gain proficiency with touched weapon or armor for 1 minute

Lert, A.
2009-02-07, 05:13 PM
"Every Four" ability choice 0

Reroll one failed attack, save, or check
Counter a sonic-based spell or effect
Bardic music lasts additional 1d4+Cha rounds
Echo a spell cast in the last #Cha rounds
Gain extra swift action

vegetalss4
2009-02-09, 10:23 AM
Choice Every Four Levels

Cha-to-saves for 1 minute
Alter purchased abilities of current bardsong
Echo a spell cast in the last #Cha rounds
Gain the benefits of a feat used in the last #Cha rounds for 1 minute
Gain proficiency with touched weapon or armor for 1 minute

PersonofJid
2009-02-09, 11:56 AM
"Every four", ability choice.

Cha-to-saves for 1 min
Echo a spell cast in the #Cha rounds
Alter purchased abilites of current bardsong
Extra use of bardic music
Counter a sonic-based spell or effect

vegetalss4
2009-02-12, 02:15 PM
um Fax aren't we a bit over time with this or are the end results pending?