[3.5] Good LA/ECL for a Hound Archon?

[Saph]

So in my Red Hand of Doom game, one of the players used a Lesser Planar Ally spell to summon a Hound Archon for the upcoming battle.

During the battle he got eaten by a red dragon, and has now taken over playing the Hound Archon, whose stats you can see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon). The battle's still going, and he's likely to carry on playing the archon for one session or maybe even more.

I'm now wondering what ECL to count the Archon at. The official ECL is 11 (6 RHD +5 LA), but LA is notoriously dodgy. The rest of the party is currently level 8.

The Archon has some quite powerful utility abilities, but a weak attack. It has low HP but DR 10/evil, meaning that one big attack will kill it, but smaller shots will just bounce off continuously. Finally, it's got several at-will SLAs, including a self-only teleport.

So what do you think that comes out to?

- Saph

[kamikasei]

So what do you think that comes out to?

...a headache?

I'd be inclined to just count it as 8th-level for XP and similar purposes, and maybe adjust that if the player really does seem to have an easier time than he should with the new abilities. If he has a bunch of new abilities that will never come up in the short time he'll be playing the archon, no point penalizing him for having them.

That's assuming that the archon is strictly short-term, and that CR and XP calculations are all you need an ECL for.

Also: technically isn't the called creature part of the caller's CR - so (absurdly, I know) the fact that the archon is on the battlefield fighting alongside the party is no different than if some other lasting spell cast by a slain wizard was still in effect? He shouldn't affect XP calculations at all, though I'd be inclined to say the wizard (assuming he gets rezzed) should gain XP as if he'd participated in any fights of which the archon is a part, for fairness (a contribution on the party's behalf from beyond the grave).

[Blood_Lord]

Looks like a meh level 6 character to me. I mean, Hound Archons are regular beaten by level 4 characters, so the fact that he can use Greater Teleport to deliver messages isn't amazing, since anyone who can cast lesser Planar Binding has the same ability.

Honestly, ECL 6. Of course, most people go ballistic at the though of a level 6 hound archon, because doing a couple things that other casters can do just as much as they can is totally game breaking.

But if you really need to push it, just declare him level 8 with the rest of the party and make XP gain easier to calculate. He is totally gimped him relative to the other characters, but oh well.

Although I'm not sure why it matters, since it doesn't seem like he'd level much before getting his old character back.

[Saph]

...a headache?

I'd be inclined to just count it as 8th-level for XP and similar purposes, and maybe adjust that if the player really does seem to have an easier time than he should with the new abilities. If he has a bunch of new abilities that will never come up in the short time he'll be playing the archon, no point penalizing him for having them.

That's assuming that the archon is strictly short-term, and that CR and XP calculations are all you need an ECL for.

Yeah, I was thinking around ECL 8 as well.

However, the player was getting kind of tired of his old character, so it's just possible he might decide he wants to keep playing this one . . . a Hound Archon could get reasonably powerful if you added a class level and made good use of its SLAs.

- Saph

[kamikasei]

Yeah, I was thinking around ECL 8 as well.

However, the player was getting kind of tired of his old character, so it's just possible he might decide he wants to keep playing this one . . . a Hound Archon could get reasonably powerful if you added a class level and made good use of its SLAs.

- Saph

Added a little more to my previous post. As far as continued play, I'd honestly try to dissuade the player, simply on the grounds that LA is a pain in the rear. That, and that a called creature from the upper planes seems a bit out of place as a character in RHoD. Of course I understand the desire to present the player with consequences and let him decide if it's not worth it rather than to prohibit outright.

[Iku Rex]

LA is +5 in Savage Species (3.0) and Planar Handbook (3.5). Both books have hound archon monster classes.

The character won't have any PC equipment at first though, so it shouldn't be too bad if you start him at ECL 8.

[Saph]

Also: technically isn't the called creature part of the caller's CR - so (absurdly, I know) the fact that the archon is on the battlefield fighting alongside the party is no different than if some other lasting spell cast by a slain wizard was still in effect?

I'm fairly sure that's only for summoned monsters and their 1 round/level duration. Called creatures are there for good, semi-permanently, so they count as normal.

- Saph

[Fax Celestis]

I think going with the racial class might be a decent option. Usually my rule for LA is ECL=CR, unless HD is higher. It's a guideline, though, so it's still a bit wonky.

I'd personally kick his LA down a couple notches by cutting his aid and greater teleport SLAs to 3/day. The other ones aren't a big deal and can stay as at-will. Aura of Menace isn't too powerful, but the continuous magic circle against evil will make enemy meleers pretty much shafted unless he presses the attack, since they won't be able to move into the field unless he moves them into it. I might make that from continuous to 3/day, also.

Scent, SR 16, tongues, and change shape have their uses, but they're not overly broken. Well, change shape can be broken, if you qualify things like werewolves, death dogs, and barghest as canine and let him shift into those.

With those changes, I'd call it 6HD+2 LA, which would conveniently put him on par with the rest of your party.

[Iku Rex]

...the continuous magic circle against evil will make enemy meleers pretty much shafted unless he presses the attack, since they won't be able to move into the field unless he moves them into it.That only applies to summoned creatures.


With those changes, I'd call it 6HD+2 LA, which would conveniently put him on par with the rest of your party.
Aren't you forgetting the natural armor and DR?

***

BTW: I see this is an existing NPC, so a -1 LA for crappy ability scores may be in order if it's straight out of the MM.

[PinkysBrain]

That continuous magic circle against evil is definitely the biggest headache for you ... basically you can kiss goodbye to summons and charm/domination.

I've personally never been in favor of natural armor and normal armor stacking ... he will easily have the highest AC in the party after he gears up.

[Fax Celestis]

That only applies to summoned creatures.


Aren't you forgetting the natural armor and DR?

***

BTW: I see this is an existing NPC, so a -1 LA for crappy ability scores may be in order if it's straight out of the MM.

Okay, yeah, +9 Natural Armor and DR 10/magic and evil is kinda...strong. I might make it DR 5/evil instead, and cut the Natural Armor back a little.

[Keld Denar]

I'm of the believe that it isn't too overly obscene as well. I tried to convince a DM to let me play one, but he wouldn't primarily because of the Teleport SLA. If you do like Fax said, and kick it down to 3/day, the fact that its self only makes it only really good for running away, catching a fast runner, or bamfing back to down to buy scrolls of raise dead. Its not super useful in combat, since it takes your standard action, and as long as you don't allow him to take levels in Cinti Maurader or Teflemmar Shadowlord (neither of which fit the Archon style) he won't really break the game.

I'd say +2 LA, with 6 RHD, and only because of the DR and the really nice stat mods. LA is notoriously over rated, with only a handful of all templates and races being actually worth it.

I can see Hound Archon making a really fun Paladin or Crusader. Also, let the player roll his own stats, or use PB, or whatever your perfered method is.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, let the player roll his own stats, or use PB, or whatever your perfered method is.

Str +4, Con +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 isn't that strong in itself either. Make for a decent paladin, certainly. Sure, it's not an LA+0 spread, but it's also not the LA+8 vampire stat bonuses (Str +6, Dex +4, Con --, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4) and they're not even as good as the HD+2, LA+2 Werewolf (Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Wis +2).

[Artanis]

What classes are the party members, including the new Hound Archon?

I was (sorta*) in a campaign that just ended where the party included a Druid, a Wizard, and a Cleric. After much RP, the party's Swordsage was turned into a Janni for no real crunch cost, and the party actually turned out a little bit more balanced because of it.

So if the rest of the party is high-powered classes, giving the Hound Archon a few low- to mid-powered class levels would probably work out fine, or even make things better.



*Technically I was spectating since that campaign was almost over before I joined. I was there to get used to what was going on in that setting since I would be in the "sequel". But I got a good look at how things went for the party. Also, at one point I got to control an NPC who would shout "CEASE AND REPENT!" when casting PW:Kill :smallbiggrin: