Celia is [] dumb [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Llama231

2009-01-12, 10:52 PM

Wow, all these Celia-hate is turning her into the next Miko.:smallfrown:
I do not think that she is so bad...

Celia is not an adventurer, but a life-loving lawyer, and is smart at what she does, which is not killing, and lawyering/dealing. Also, as it has been explained many times, she does not have much experience with humans.
All that we know is that she was a sylph working for Dorukan for who-knows how many years in isolation, followed by a short meet with the order, and the having problems with here SYLPH boyfriend, and them going to law school. For all we know, she could have been taught by/with other sylphs. Then, she showed up, and did a very good job at the trials, and had a relationship with Roy. Up until the last time that we saw her, she has remained the same, but in different situations. As for the whole bratty thing, it may be a sylph way of stressing out about losing someone important to them, or she may have other problems that we do not know about. As for the bargaining, it actually is GOOD for Hayley, as she could potentially MAKE money if she handles this right.

While she may be annoying and naive at some points, she is good at what she is trained/experienced for, and is just at a point were that experience and knowledge (or lack of) is not useful.

Berserk Monk

2009-01-12, 11:03 PM

Yes she is. Also...

V is a wizard with an undetermined gender.
Roy is a dead fighter with a large sword.
Belkar is a ranger with a cat who took two weapon fighting style.
Durkon is a cleric of Thor with a great fear of trees.
Haley is a red headed rogue with a bow.
Elan is bard with the int score of most orcs.
Xykon is an undead sorcerer.

There. I'm done naming all the painfully obvious things about this comic.

Captain Six

2009-01-12, 11:05 PM

You know, even if there was a new Celia thread for every comic put up it would cut back the threads by at least 75%.

Zeful

2009-01-12, 11:10 PM

They had the theives guild beatenProve it.
and they held all the cards with both of its leaders incapacitatedProve it.
and a bunch of scattered low level peons as the only remaning members of the guild.Prove it.
Celia sold her out for a raw deal promising money Haley needed to save her father which is the reason whe left the guild in the first place. Now Haley has to chose between honoring this new deal or saving her father, she cant have both.You are now assigned to cure cancer, crime and world hunger. Failure means immediate ejection from the human race.

Blaming fictional characters for not knowing everything means others can blame you for not knowing everything.

Optimystik

2009-01-12, 11:23 PM

You are now assigned to cure cancer, crime and world hunger. Failure means immediate ejection from the human race.

Blaming fictional characters for not knowing everything means others can blame you for not knowing everything.

I don't blame her for not knowing everything; I blame her for not knowing everything and refusing to ask questions.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky's not a good place to stop.
She doesn't ask what Grubwiggler is actually going to do with Roy's body.
She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.
She doesn't even ask her boyfriend if he knows how to shoot lightning from his fingers before handing over her talisman!

She whines constantly about not being knowledgeable about the adventuring world, yet she absolutely refuses to rectify the situation despite being forced to live in that world. Worst of all, when called on her bull, she doesn't act repentant; she acts snide and overbearing. As usual.

But by all means, continue defending her. I just want Haley to line up a boot with her bony fairy ass like she was planning originally.

Assassin89

2009-01-12, 11:24 PM

Blaming fictional characters for not knowing everything means others can blame you for not knowing everything.

I agree with this point because no one is omniscient, not even the powerful beings of the Outer Planes.

FoE

2009-01-12, 11:25 PM

Oh come on. Regardless of whether Celia knew about Haley's father, that was an exceedingly stupid deal to make. Would you bargain away half of your friend's fortune without their permission to save a bunch of criminals who tried to kill your friend and yourself a few minutes ago? For that matter, would you bargain away half of your friend's fortune without their permission under ANY circumstances?

And yes, the Thieves' Guild was beaten. Sadly, Rich hasn't been up a full list of their roster, the argument that the Guild was basically toast lies in Strip #621. The fact that Haley was willing to kill Bozzak should be proof enough; if she thought she would be targeted by a horde of vengeful thieves after killing Bozzak, do you think she would have loosed that final arrow at him?

:haley: Aren't truces generally for people who haven't, I don't know, already WON?

I don't blame her for not knowing everything; I blame her for not knowing everything and refusing to ask questions.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky City's not a good place to stop.
She doesn't ask what Grubwiggler is actually going to do with Roy's body.
She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.
She doesn't even ask her boyfriend if he knows how to shoot lightning from his fingers before handing over her talisman!

Point, point and point.

Here's a pretty good scale to determine if the deal you worked out was good or not:

If it ends with your enemies happy, and your teammates mad, you DID IT WRONG.

*Cheers*

Reverent-One

2009-01-12, 11:43 PM

Optimystik

2009-01-13, 12:00 AM

All of the Celia haters are focusing on the little picture and missing the big one. Yes, they had Bozzak beaten, but without the deal, Belkar and Haley would end up alone in a city in the midst of a power struggle, Roy as a bone golem, Celia captured by Hank or dead (though the haters probably don't care about her), with no idea whether or not Durkon knows where they are. That is an exceptionally bad place to be, to say nothing of the effect it would have on the citizens of greysky city, which Haley does apparently care about.

This is where you and I differ - I think a power struggle would be perfect for Haley and Belkar at this point. Who'd notice a missing woman, halfling, fey and bone golem, along with large amounts of treasure in all that confusion? More importantly, If Haley wasn't worried about it, why should we be? She knows Greysky better than anyone, and that includes the readers. Certainly she knows it better than Celia.

I also see no reason Hank would harm Celia. The only reason he's been after her is for her "pot of gold"; she wasnt' even a target. I especially don't see how he could harm her when she was bristling with lightning and flying above their heads.

With the deal, they entirety of the Order of the Stick can get back together, dead members and all. THAT is exceptionally good, for the sake of the entire world. The cost of this? The money, which probably is a basic requirement of the deal to work, since it puts Haley back on the thief's guild roster.

The Order will get back together regardless; this is a B-plot, remember? After they reunite, I'm willing to bet a number of people are going to chime in on the boards with "see? The contract worked!!1!!11", never realizing that getting Roy back was a foregone conclusion no matter how bad Celia's negotiating skills are.

Reverent-One

2009-01-13, 12:15 AM

This is where you and I differ - I think a power struggle would be perfect for Haley and Belkar at this point. Who'd notice a missing woman, halfling, fey and bone golem, along with large amounts of treasure in all that confusion? More importantly, If Haley wasn't worried about it, why should we be? She knows Greysky better than anyone, and that includes the readers. Certainly she knows it better than Celia.

Apparently Haley was worried about it, since it was only after Hank mentioned that that she agreed to the deal.

EDIT: Correction, re-read those two comics. It was only after Haley found out that Durkon might not have been contacted that she was worried about it. Not that that hurts my point that she was worried about the overall situation, but it was a little bit later.

I also see no reason Hank would harm Celia. The only reason he's been after her is for her "pot of gold"; she wasnt' even a target. I especially don't see how he could harm her when she was bristling with lightning and flying above their heads.

I'm not sure what he'd do, but him letting her go doesn't make sense to me. I mean what? Hank would just say "Oh, you're friends with the guys who killed my boss, guess I'll just let you go".

The Order will get back together regardless; this is a B-plot, remember? After they reunite, I'm willing to bet a number of people are going to chime in on the boards with "see? The contract worked!!1!!11", never realizing that getting Roy back was a foregone conclusion no matter how bad Celia's negotiating skills are.

Of course the order's going to get back together, and this seems to be the mechanism by which Rich is planning to do so, so it is the right choice. And the fact that it will accomplish this goal means that Celia's negotiating skills aren't bad at all.

And BTW, from your eariler post.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky's not a good place to stop.

Acutally, she does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), and it seems like she did so several times, but Haley wouldn't tell her. Bit hard to learn from the experienced person when they won't answer you, isn't it?

She whines constantly about not being knowledgeable about the adventuring world, yet she absolutely refuses to rectify the situation despite being forced to live in that world. Worst of all, when called on her bull, she doesn't act repentant; she acts snide and overbearing. As usual.

Again, incorrect. She apologizes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) (bottom row of frames), fully aware she screwed up.

Finwe

2009-01-13, 12:38 AM

I'm not sure what he'd do, but him letting her go doesn't make sense to me. I mean what? Hank would just say "Oh, you're friends with the guys who killed my boss, guess I'll just let you go".

If Haley had decided to kill Bozzok, what would have stopped her and Belkar from killing Hank before he and his buddies could re-capture Celia?

Acutally, she does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), and it seems like she did so several times, but Haley wouldn't tell her. Bit hard to learn from the experienced person when they won't answer you, isn't it?

Did you even read the whole comic?

Trust me. In all likelihood, there won't be any clerics there anyways. At least, not interested in helping Roy. Or Belkar, for that matter. It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets. Not everywhere on this plane is happy fun sunshine land, you know.

Celia then rationalizes that it's O.K. to ignore this warning, because there might be a chance of her finding a cleric in Greysky, completely disregarding the fact that there's a much better chance of finding a helpful cleric in Cliffport.

Optimystik

2009-01-13, 01:09 AM

Apparently Haley was worried about it, since it was only after Hank mentioned that that she agreed to the deal.

EDIT: Correction, re-read those two comics. It was only after Haley found out that Durkon might not have been contacted that she was worried about it. Not that that hurts my point that she was worried about the overall situation, but it was a little bit later.

She's not worried that she'll be caught in a power struggle even then. At worst she, Celia and Belkar would have to get Roy's body alone and skip town, leaving them exactly where they started (or even better off depending on how much of Grub's treasure remained unspent by then.)

I'm not sure what he'd do, but him letting her go doesn't make sense to me. I mean what? Hank would just say "Oh, you're friends with the guys who killed my boss, guess I'll just let you go".

No, he'd say "Gee, I wish Yor could fly so he could grapple you again sometime before you blast your way out of here and rejoin your high-level friends."

Of course the order's going to get back together, and this seems to be the mechanism by which Rich is planning to do so, so it is the right choice. And the fact that it will accomplish this goal means that Celia's negotiating skills aren't bad at all.

Oh, she's a great negotiator. That must be why Hank is so pleased and Haley is so pissed off.

I don't claim to speak for Rich, but my personal theory is that this financial setback for Haley (a) will serve to justify her continued kleptomania and (b) her continued estrangement from the Guild, contract or no contract.

Acutally, she does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), and it seems like she did so several times, but Haley wouldn't tell her. Bit hard to learn from the experienced person when they won't answer you, isn't it?

Gee, you'd think "it's a dangerous place where people get killed" and "there aren't any clerics there interested in helping Roy" would be enough explanation for someone with a brain.

Again, incorrect. She apologizes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) (bottom row of frames), fully aware she screwed up.

But she didn't leave it at that, now did she? She goes right back to making excuses (and glaring) in the very next comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)

Red XIV

2009-01-13, 01:13 AM

If Haley had given a real explanation of why going to Greysky was a bad idea, rather than being vague and evasive, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.

The Extinguisher

2009-01-13, 01:31 AM

And so, threads are posted, proving once again that, if you don't bend over backwards to serve the PC's, you are instantly hated.

Optimystik

2009-01-13, 01:33 AM

If Haley had given a real explanation of why going to Greysky was a bad idea, rather than being vague and evasive, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.

Do you really think that Haley delving into her backstory and all the horrors of the Guild would quiet down Celia's hormones? Look at Grubwiggler's castle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0575.html) for god's sake. The airhead walked right in.

And so, threads are posted, proving once again that, if you don't bend over backwards to serve the PC's, you are instantly hated.

Good think the Oracle, Shojo and Hinjo bent over backwards for them too then, or they'd be next on the hate-list amirite?

JaxGaret

2009-01-13, 01:39 AM

And so, threads are posted, proving once again that, if you don't bend over backwards to serve the PC's, you are instantly hated.

Everyone loves Thog, and plenty of people like Xykon and Redcloak. Therefore your supposition fails.

Quorothorn

2009-01-13, 01:42 AM

Do you really think that Haley delving into her backstory and all the horrors of the Guild would quiet down Celia's hormones? Look at Grubwiggler's castle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0575.html) for god's sake. The airhead walked right in.

Okay, I gotta ask this again: does this mean Celia is "thinking with the wrong brain", so to speak?

Good think the Oracle, Shojo and Hinjo bent over backwards for them too then, or they'd be next on the hate-list amirite?

Hey, I don't like the Oracle much...but I seem to be in the minority.

"I want to be the minority/I don't need your authority/down with the moral majority, 'cause I want to be the minority..."

...Sorry 'bout that.

SPoD

2009-01-13, 01:49 AM

Good think the Oracle, Shojo and Hinjo bent over backwards for them too then, or they'd be next on the hate-list amirite?

You obviously weren't around for the half-dozen threads spawned after this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html), wherein posters repeatedly attacked Hinjo's right to continue existing for not bowing down to Roy's attempt to skirt the justice he was sworn to uphold.

And Shojo did bend over backwards for the PCs. He may have been snarky while doing it, like, once, but in the end, he did whatever they needed done.

Everyone loves Thog, and plenty of people like Xykon and Redcloak. Therefore your supposition fails.

NPCs meaning friendly ones, not bad guys. It's not villains that get this treatment, it's anyone who is seen as an ally (or someone the readers WANT to be an ally, even if everything in the strip tells us that they never will be). Thog, Xykon, Redcloak, and even the Oracle were all introduced as some form of antagonist, so no one cared when they didn't bend over backwards for the PCs.

Any friendly/allied NPC that stands up to the PCs and refuses to back down gets branded as the most annoying character in the strip, and wishes for their deaths litter the forum.

Dr. Cthulwho

2009-01-13, 02:45 AM

They had the theives guild beaten and they held all the cards with both of its leaders incapacitated and a bunch of scattered low level peons as the only remaning members of the guild.

Well, Celia didn't exactly know that. She had been captured after all, and not long before Haley had needed saving. Twice. And not long before that Haley had been implying last stands and raisings would be in order.

Celia sold her out for a raw deal promising money Haley needed to save her father which is the reason whe left the guild in the first place.

1st Celia doesn't know about what Haley want's all the treasure for, now does she? Neither does the rest of the party for that matter. Celia believes the persona Haley has put forward - the money hungry thief. Of course she isn't going to feel bad about parting Haley from some gold in that situation.

2nd - Sold her out? The deal is good and other then the loss of the gold does Haley no harm, in fact it stopped the killing and allows them to retrieve Roy and ensure he'll get raised at least. So "sold her out" is a bit of an exageration isn't it?

Now Haley has to chose between honoring this new deal or saving her father, she cant have both.

And it's not like Haley isn't a smart cookie and capable rogue who can probably trick the Guild's leaders without too much trouble.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky's not a good place to stop.

Actually she did. After suggesting it she asked why twice, and Haley refused to give an actually answer beyond "I say so" pretty much.

She doesn't ask what Grubwiggler is actually going to do with Roy's body.

Well Grubwiggler didn't actually ask what Celia wanted done with the body either, it was part of the whole play of the piece, that they both were thinking entirely different things for Roy's body and thinking the other was on the same page.

She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.

So during a possibly life and death fight she was meant to ask them to wait while she asked Haley if it was ok, the whole money thing?

She doesn't even ask her boyfriend if he knows how to shoot lightning from his fingers before handing over her talisman!

Well, yes on that. But then again, what kind of question is that to ask a new boyfriend? And some humans at least can shoot lightening, and Celia seemed to have had contact with human wizards before so...

absolutely refuses to rectify the situation despite being forced to live in that world. Worst of all, when called on her bull, she doesn't act repentant; she acts snide and overbearing. As usual.

Of course Haley and Belkar probably aren't the best choice of teachers for her, are they? Roy's ghost was doing better - explaining why and what she should be doing, if only she could of heard him.

Oh, she's a great negotiator. That must be why Hank is so pleased and Haley is so pissed off.

Haley was happy enough with the plan as well until she found out about loosing some of her loot. Although, at the end of the day she came up with a good plan that worked.

Gee, you'd think "it's a dangerous place where people get killed" and "there aren't any clerics there interested in helping Roy" would be enough explanation for someone with a brain.

Well, actually she said "in all likelihood there won't be any clerics there anyway, or at least none interested in helping Roy", which to a lawyer like Celia may have seemed like a contradiction.

Maybe if Haley had said "I've been there before and I know there isn't any help/etc"...

Lissou

2009-01-13, 05:31 AM

I don't blame her for not knowing everything; I blame her for not knowing everything and refusing to ask questions.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky's not a good place to stop.
She doesn't ask what Grubwiggler is actually going to do with Roy's body.
She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.
She doesn't even ask her boyfriend if he knows how to shoot lightning from his fingers before handing over her talisman!

But... How would she know t ask these questions?

If you went to France, would you ask "Hey, by the way, are all your stores closed on Sundays?" If you don't aks, well when you go out to buy stuff on a Sunday and everything is closed... oops! Your fault though, you didn't ask. Now you're out of food or worse, toilet paper, and so are all the people who depend on you. Good job.

When I went to North America, I didn't ask "Oh, by the way, do you have cards that allow you to spend money you don't actually have?" No, I didn't ask, because I didn't even realise stuff like that could exist. Just like if you went to France, you wouldn't ask people "you do have credits cards, don't you?"

If you gave your French friend something that would save them and can only be activated with a credit card, and, more importantly, even if you did TELL them it can be activated with a credit card, the person still would die, since what we call "credit cards" are actually our debit cards.

She did tell him it needed to be broken. She didn't realise he couldn't do it. If I had to do anything that needs a credit history, I couldn't do it, because I don't have one, because that doesn't exist where I come from.

I realise that there was a dose of idiot plot, mostly when she was completely oblivious to anything when she first arrived in Greysky. When she did ask Grubby is he was going to turn Roy into an undead, though, she DID ask a question. She just didn't ask the right one. And I wouldn't have thought to ask that question, either, not knowing about golems.
Which she obviously doesn't either. She does try to use electricity on them, doesn't she?

She didn't decide to come to the Material Plane. She decided to stay, only because she wanted to help, since then, she's tried as hard as she could, and helped a lot. Not asking the right questions is exactly the same as not knowing everything, because if you knew what questions to ask, you wouldn't need to ask them.
Unless you suggest she spends all of her time asking about every single thing she can think of? Yeah, like THAT wouldn't get annoying.

Optimystik

2009-01-13, 05:40 AM

But... How would she know t ask these questions?

By not assuming she knows what she's doing all the time. It's simple, really.

Celia's current MO: Decide to do something. Screw the pooch. Whine about how "things are different in law school." Repeat.

After the first couple of times doing that, would anyone with reasonable intelligence maintain the same ineffective way of doing things?

I realise that there was a dose of idiot plot, mostly when she was completely oblivious to anything when she first arrived in Greysky. When she did ask Grubby is he was going to turn Roy into an undead, though, she DID ask a question. She just didn't ask the right one. And I wouldn't have thought to ask that question, either, not knowing about golems.
Which she obviously doesn't either. She does try to use electricity on them, doesn't she?

A dose? More like a vat. You don't have to know what golems are to see something fishy about that guy - in fact, she picked up on it briefly before the hormones kicked in again. You don't ask somebody "hey, are you a necromancer?" if you trust them completely, do you?

She didn't decide to come to the Material Plane. She decided to stay, only because she wanted to help, since then, she's tried as hard as she could, and helped a lot. Not asking the right questions is exactly the same as not knowing everything, because if you knew what questions to ask, you wouldn't need to ask them.
Unless you suggest she spends all of her time asking about every single thing she can think of? Yeah, like THAT wouldn't get annoying.

She's NOT trying as hard as she can. She's skating by on circumstance and luck. If Bozzok had sneak attacked Haley to -10, or Cole cast invisibility and nondetection and bailed on Belkar, or if Belkar hadn't had a massive epiphany, or had any of the thieves that she is so gung-ho to revive found her hiding, this would have been a very different story.

Senex

2009-01-13, 05:49 AM

Conclusion: You are only allowed to be dumb if you're Chaotic.

Lissou

2009-01-13, 05:59 AM

A dose? More like a vat. You don't have to know what golems are to see something fishy about that guy - in fact, she picked up on it briefly before the hormones kicked in again. You don't ask somebody "hey, are you a necromancer?" if you trust them completely, do you?

See? She DID ask. She just didn't ask the right question. Or he didn't give the right answer. It's a shared responsibility, you know. Let me explain with yet another example :P

I'm 23. Do you know how many times people have assumed that I could drive, and I ended up in trouble, in the middle of the night, with no buses left, having to walk back home for hours in risky neighbourhoods?

And yet, they assued I could drive, and didn't ask. As for me, I assumed the buses would be running at night, or that my friends would make sure to let me go on time to catch the last one.
I just didn't think I needed to tell them I couldn't drive. It seems normal to me to to be able to drive at such a young age. None of my friends my age can drive. My husband, who is in his thirties, can't either. My siblings can't.
And that's normal for us. Takin the licence costs €1,000... And you might not get it the first time! Actually, it's pretty rare to. And by the time you actually need to drive, you're usually part of a 3-4 people family: time when it starts being cheaper to drive to places in one car rather than pay individual bus, subway or train tickets.

So, shouldn't they have asked if I could drive? Or, is it my fault?
I guess what I mean is, it's a two-sided thing. She didn't ask Roy "can you shoot lightning?", true, but that's a weird question to ask. And when she said "you just need to break it", he surely didn't ask "how", either. If he had, he could have told her "humans can't shoot electricity".
He assumed as much as she did. He assumed she meant breking it through brute force, even though, as a sylph, chances are she wouldn't carry a talisman that needs to be broken by force - she's not that strong.

And what about Grubby? When she asked if he was going to turn Roy into an undead, he didn't sa "oh, no, into a Golem". He didn't ask what she wanted exactly, either. Isn't that a good idea to make sure you know what your customers want?

All of these things have a shared blame. That's how cultural misunderstandings work: both sides assume the other side works like they do, thinks like they do, and means what they do. But that's not the case.

The misunderstandings are here to serve the plot, and because they're funny. But they do make sense. When you're in a place you don't know anything about, you keep screwing up. When she tried trusting Haley to know what she was doing (when they escaped from Grubby), it didn't bring much good either.

Rotipher

2009-01-13, 10:58 AM

tcrudisi

2009-01-13, 11:08 AM

Just a thought:

Everyone's debating whether it was stupid for Celia to agree to let the Guild claim 50% of Haley's stolen wealth. But isn't 50% the standard share which the Guild invariably demands of every member? For Hank to forgive that debt on Haley's part could open up the Guild to similar exemption-demands from every other thief who's ever left the city limits, undertaken a secret mission, or can otherwise claim they earned money under circumstances like Haley's.

So how could there ever have been any wiggle-room in that part of Celia's deal? Either Haley is retroactively proclaimed a member -- in which case, she really does owe them that money -- or Celia can't negotiate a deal at all, because Haley's permanently blacklisted and marked for death. Celia isn't the one who came up with the 50% rule, the Guild did. In effect, Celia's just re-establishing a commitment that Haley had made when she enrolled in the Guild in the first place. Any benefits she arranges beyond that (retrieval of Roy's body & resurrection; avoiding a Guild grudge against Belkar and herself; keeping Pete's bow; etc) are pure cake for her client.

Like this: Okay, my client does agree to pay the 50%. However, since obviously my client is now far more powerful, as demonstrated by the fact that an entire death squad has been sent at her and she has done nothing but send it to its grave, she is therefore far more useful to you. I suggest that you pay her a one-time tribute equal to 50% of the value of the items she has stolen since she left the guild. If you don't agree with this stipulation, then I'll ask her to come in and continue with her form of negotiations.

What you have in the above is quite simple: Haley pays the 50% retroactively while getting to keep all of it, because as every reader has pointed out, Celia was bargaining from a position of strength. That would have been a perfectly reasonable request. Do you think they would have denied that request considering their other option was death?

hamishspence

2009-01-13, 11:15 AM

Its a big guild. Losing Bozzok would be a setback, but it wouldn't destroy the guild. Nor could Belkar and Haley do it alone.

It is possible that the Guild is not as "over a barrel" as one might think.

Rotipher

2009-01-13, 11:45 AM

Celia was bargaining from a position of strength. That would have been a perfectly reasonable request. Do you think they would have denied that request considering their other option was death?

Which sets the Guild-destroying precedent that anyone with enough levels to force the issue can extort money from them at bow-point. Giving in to that kind of pressure will permanently discredit the organization, doing far more damage to the Guild than the loss of however many thieves Haley and Belkar might hack their way through, before leaving town.

Lord Seth

2009-01-13, 01:13 PM

Although I do agree that Celia has done some mind-numbingly stupid things lately, I don't think this contract was particularly stupid. She's looking at it as just money, and is unaware that Haley has a motivation for having the money other than pure greed. (specifically, the reason she quit the Thieves' Guild was so she could raise the money herself) So, yeah, Celia has done stupid things, but the contract doesn't seem too dumb by her recent standards.

Optimystik

2009-01-13, 01:31 PM

See? She DID ask. She just didn't ask the right question. Or he didn't give the right answer. It's a shared responsibility, you know. Let me explain with yet another example :P

*long analogy about being stranded*

If that was the only time she made that exact mistake, it wouldn't be a big deal. How many times have you been stranded since then? Wouldn't it be right to consider you somewhat touched in the head if you kept going out with those same friends, blissfully unconcerned with how you'd get home?

People seem to think I'm crucifying her over one particular example. Well that contract was pretty bad, but I'm looking at the whole picture here, not focusing specifically on any one incident. That's why I keep listing all of them.

The misunderstandings are here to serve the plot, and because they're funny. But they do make sense. When you're in a place you don't know anything about, you keep screwing up. When she tried trusting Haley to know what she was doing (when they escaped from Grubby), it didn't bring much good either.

Of course they make sense. Because she's an idiot. They wouldn't make sense for Roy or Vaarsuvius, now would they?

Finwe

2009-01-13, 01:31 PM

Which sets the Guild-destroying precedent that anyone with enough levels to force the issue can extort money from them at bow-point. Giving in to that kind of pressure will permanently discredit the organization, doing far more damage to the Guild than the loss of however many thieves Haley and Belkar might hack their way through, before leaving town.

Uhh, that is already the case. Greysky is a lawless city, so anyone sufficiently powerful CAN take whatever they want from anyone else. The thieves' guild only survives because it is stronger than almost every other organization in the city. If the story gets out that two high-level PC's and their para-elemental companion raided the Thieves' Guild, you're not exactly going to have a surge of commoners trying their luck. A few of the stupid ones might try, but they'll just die and the rest will be discouraged.

Rotipher

2009-01-13, 02:21 PM

And when other adventuring parties learn about it? If just two PCs could whip the Guild, think of what a full party could do. The Order aren't the only adventurers in the world who can kick butt, after all.

The Extinguisher

2009-01-14, 12:41 AM

Celia was bargaining from a position of strength.

No, she wasn't. When Celia last saw Haley, she was battling the enemy who had just almost killed her, before Celia swooped in to save her. Remember that? Celia had no way of knowing Belkar had joined the fight, or that they were winning. She was captured by the enemies who were probably going to kill her. She negotiated pretty damn well for the losing side, given that besides Haley's loot, everything works out fine for them. It's too bad that Celia wasn't an omniscient being of power and could see Haley from inside the locked room

Guess that's her fault as well.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 12:45 AM

Celia had no way of knowing Belkar had joined the fight, or that they were winning.

Except, you know, witnessing his arrival. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

She was captured by the enemies who were probably going to kill her. She negotiated pretty damn well for the losing side, given that besides Haley's loot, everything works out fine for them. It's too bad that Celia wasn't an omniscient being of power and could see Haley from inside the locked room

Guess that's her fault as well.

Kill her? And lose their fairy pot of gold?

And she looked funny captured, all flying in the air and crackling with lightning like that.

whitelaughter

2009-01-14, 12:55 AM

She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.

Annoying as Celia has been in the past, my opinion of her soared today! You mean, money you stole from other people who earned it? Hell yes! Good for Celia - if Haley can justify stealing to herself, then she shouldn't get upset when Celia steals it back!

Maybe Celia can redeem herself after all - she's persuaded a criminal organisation to be cannon fodder in an attack on Castle Frankenstein, and refsued to buy into Haley's world view. Not bad, not bad at all.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 01:01 AM

From Celia's perspective, she made a pretty good deal.

What Celia got out of the deal:
saved her own skin from Hank and his cohort stopped all the killing got to reverse most of the deaths that had already happened secured a deal to resurrect her dead boyfriend got security and backing from the most powerful guild in Greysky
What Celia had to give:
A bunch of gold that, according to her values, was no longer required and a bad influence on her friend Haley.

From Celia's perspective, the gold doesn't have any value. Frankly unless you know why Haley is hoarding it, all it appears to be to the outside observer is some kind of score for how good a thief she is. If your moral beliefs are that stealing is wrong and bad for your soul, keeping all that gold is actually a negative. Celia might think she's doing Haley a favour, kind of like taking whiskey from an alcoholic.

It's a case of crossed wires: neither Haley nor Celia understand each other's motives. Cut Celia some slack, everyone? :smallwink:

The Extinguisher

2009-01-14, 01:07 AM

Except, you know, witnessing his arrival. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

Man, I wasn't aware Celia could see through walls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html)

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 01:23 AM

Annoying as Celia has been in the past, my opinion of her soared today! You mean, money you stole from other people who earned it? Hell yes! Good for Celia - if Haley can justify stealing to herself, then she shouldn't get upset when Celia steals it back!

Maybe Celia can redeem herself after all - she's persuaded a criminal organisation to be cannon fodder in an attack on Castle Frankenstein, and refsued to buy into Haley's world view. Not bad, not bad at all.

Oh, so Dr. Frankenstein would make better use of said money?

Man, I wasn't aware Celia could see through walls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html)

She knew Bozzok was the only one chasing them, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html) and she saw a freshly healed Haley walk out the door with a brand new magic weapon. Explain how anyone could conjure up a losing scenario from that. Well, anyone with a brain that is.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 01:30 AM

She knew Bozzok was the only one chasing them, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html) and she saw a freshly healed Haley walk out the door with a brand new magic weapon. Explain how anyone could conjure up a losing scenario from that. Well, anyone with a brain that is.
Someone who isn't an adventurer and hasn't seen much fighting? :smalltongue:

Plus for Celia, emerging alive with all the Thieves Guild dead is a Pyrrhic victory. Sure, you're still got your life, but at the cost of dozens of other lives. And if you believe Hank, you've just made an entire city worse. Not good. This situation after the deal is much better from Celia's perspective.

brilliantlight

2009-01-14, 01:30 AM

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 01:35 AM

Someone who isn't an adventurer and hasn't seen much fighting? :smalltongue:

Plus for Celia, emerging alive with all the Thieves Guild dead is a Pyrrhic victory. Sure, you're still got your life, but at the cost of dozens of other lives. And if you believe Hank, you've just made an entire city worse. Not good. This situation after the deal is much better from Celia's perspective.

What Celia considers it really isn't Haley's concern. Or at least it wasn't before Celia started making reparations with Haley's money. And if her tactical assessment is that bad, why the hell is she negotiating anything? She has no idea if she has the upper hand or not!

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 01:48 AM

What Celia considers it really isn't Haley's concern.
True. But we're discussing Celia here. For Celia to be a dumb (expletive deleted), she would have made a bad deal for her, given the information she currently had. I don't see her making that big a blunder here.

Or at least it wasn't before Celia started making reparations with Haley's money.
Except for Celia, it isn't Haley's money. It's other people's money that Haley has stolen.

It could (and probably should! :smallsmile:) be argued that Celia should have taken Haley's opinions into consideration here, but I could easily see Celia think that this action was for Haley's greater good, even if her thief instincts initially would be against it. There's also the issue of logistics: it's already been noted that it would have been very hard to make a deal where Haley was always a member of the Thieves Guild and didn't have to pay a cut.

And if her tactical assessment is that bad, why the hell is she negotiating anything? She has no idea if she has the upper hand or not!
I don't think Celia was wanting to screw the thieves over here. She managed to wrestle out a win-win situation: Hank is happy, the OotS is happy (well, except Haley right now, but maybe Celia is hoping this will help Haley get over her kleptomania), nearly everyone is back to life and they'll get Roy back. Of course, there's the little matter of what Haley was saving the money for, but Celia didn't know about that.

However, I could be wrong. Maybe there's some hidden clauses that Hank put in over Celia. Maybe there's some hidden clauses that Celia put in over Hank. We'll need to see how the arc fully plays out to get a proper assessment.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 01:58 AM

True. But we're discussing Celia here. For Celia to be a dumb (expletive deleted), she would have made a bad deal for her, given the information she currently had. I don't see her making that big a blunder here.

I always end up asking this question. If she was so convinced she had done a good thing, with the information she currently had, then why hide it from Haley? That's what guilty, not righteous, people do.

Except for Celia, it isn't Haley's money. It's other people's money that Haley has stolen.

Not "other people." Grubwiggler. All the money Haley currently has came from him, and Celia knows it. Celia is indirectly endorsing his golem production as a more legitimate business than thievery. Keep in mind that he also tried to kill Celia.

It could (and probably should! :smallsmile:) be argued that Celia should have taken Haley's opinions into consideration here, but I could easily see Celia think that this action was for Haley's greater good, even if her thief instincts initially would be against it. There's also the issue of logistics: it's already been noted that it would have been very hard to make a deal where Haley was always a member of the Thieves Guild and didn't have to pay a cut.

And what gives her the right to try and "fix" Haley?

I don't think Celia was wanting to screw the thieves over here. She managed to wrestle out a win-win situation: Hank is happy, the OotS is happy (well, except Haley right now, but maybe Celia is hoping this will help Haley get over her kleptomania), nearly everyone is back to life and they'll get Roy back. Of course, there's the little matter of what Haley was saving the money for, but Celia didn't know about that.

You're right, Celia didn't know. In all likelihood, she just made Haley's kleptomania worse by setting her back so far.

But even not knowing what Haley was doing, how could she think of her as just a mindless thief after seeing all the money she donated to cover the expenses of the resistance? Oh, that's right... she didn't think.

However, I could be wrong. Maybe there's some hidden clauses that Hank put in over Celia. Maybe there's some hidden clauses that Celia put in over Hank. We'll need to see how the arc fully plays out to get a proper assessment.

We'll also have to see if Haley sticks with it after they get Roy back. I'm hoping for more bloodshed to further traumatize the fairy, personally.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 02:13 AM

I always end up asking this question. If she was so convinced she had done a good thing, with the information she currently had, then why hide it from Haley? That's what guilty, not righteous, people do.
That is a bit odd, but I could argue that Celia really wanted to get this deal through and she knew Haley would do something rash (i.e. kill Bossok) if presented with it immediately. Not the nicest thing to do to Haley, surely, but maybe Celia thought it was for the greater good.

In truth, I believe it was left out for the Rule of Funny and for limitations in comic space. :smallsmile:

Not "other people." Grubwiggler. All the money Haley currently has came from him, and Celia knows it. Celia is indirectly endorsing his golem production as a more legitimate business than thievery. Keep in mind that he also tried to kill Celia.
But golem production is a more legitimate business than thievery, isn't it? Admittedly in Greysky thievery appears to be quite legit. :smallbiggrin:

I'd forgot that Haley only had the money from Gubwiggler, but that makes it even less important. She only just got that, so it's not as if she's giving away her life savings here.

And what gives her the right to try and "fix" Haley?
That's what friends are for? If I had a friend who carried around a big bag of banknotes, some of which she had stolen from houses and some she had looted of people she had killed, I'd be wanting to fix her too. :smallwink:

I know I'm posting a lot, but I'm just sick of all the Celia bashing. It's getting as bad as all the Miko hate. From Celia's perspective, the deal with Hank makes a huge amount of sense.

Celia's objective right now is to rez Roy. When she was in negotiation with Hank, there were three ways that could have gone. No deal. Celia zaps Hank and flies off, but Bozzok and Crystal manage to kill Haley and Belkar. Roy's corpse is still in the hands of Grubwiggler. Very bad situation.
No deal. Celia zaps Hank and flies off, and Haley and Belkar kill Bozzok and Crystal. Roy's corpse is still in the hands of Grubwiggler. The Thieves Guild collapses, and now the whole of Greysky is in civil war. Likelihood of getting Roy's body back, rezzing him and getting out, virtually nil. Bad situation.
Deal. Everyone is okay, the city is relatively stable, and Celia now has the Thieves Guild on her side in getting back Roy. That's good!

In Celia's situation, it is entirely sensible to risk a bit of ire from Haley for the chance to get Roy back. And from my situation as a reader, I want Roy back too! Good for you, Celia. :smallbiggrin:

Finwe

2009-01-14, 02:42 AM

I know I'm posting a lot, but I'm just sick of all the Celia bashing. It's getting as bad as all the Miko hate. From Celia's perspective, the deal with Hank makes a huge amount of sense.

It's still debatable whether she's even helped at all. Why's the guild going to help recover Roy's corpse, let alone resurrect him, when they find out there's no windfall? We'll have to see how the comic plays out before we can even say that she managed to fulfill her OWN goals.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 02:50 AM

That is a bit odd, but I could argue that Celia really wanted to get this deal through and she knew Haley would do something rash (i.e. kill Bossok) if presented with it immediately. Not the nicest thing to do to Haley, surely, but maybe Celia thought it was for the greater good.

In truth, I believe it was left out for the Rule of Funny and for limitations in comic space. :smallsmile:

Certainly it resulted in humor ("You ditz!"), but since Haley accepting the deal was done between strips, Celia had the opportunity to explain the details at that time as well.

But golem production is a more legitimate business than thievery, isn't it? Admittedly in Greysky thievery appears to be quite legit. :smallbiggrin:

Grub's "business" is a fingernail away from necromancy. Since necromancy clearly figures into Celia's idea of evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), why would she consider it legitimate? Especially given her reaction once she learned what Grub was really up to.

I'd forgot that Haley only had the money from Gubwiggler, but that makes it even less important. She only just got that, so it's not as if she's giving away her life savings here.

Celia did not know the full extent of her thievery over the years, but Hank at least has a good idea of it, judging by how eagerly he's anticipating their "windfall." If she was a better negotiator, she would have caught some gleam in his eye when he was sneaking that little clause into the contract.

That's what friends are for? If I had a friend who carried around a big bag of banknotes, some of which she had stolen from houses and some she had looted of people she had killed, I'd be wanting to fix her too. :smallwink:

And how would you go about it? Sit down and talk with her, or throw the entire bag down a well while her back was turned?

I know I'm posting a lot, but I'm just sick of all the Celia bashing. It's getting as bad as all the Miko hate. From Celia's perspective, the deal with Hank makes a huge amount of sense.

I'm glad you qualified it with "from Celia's perspective" before saying it made sense. I was beginning to lose hope.

Celia's objective right now is to rez Roy. When she was in negotiation with Hank, there were three ways that could have gone. No deal. Celia zaps Hank and flies off, but Bozzok and Crystal manage to kill Haley and Belkar. Roy's corpse is still in the hands of Grubwiggler. Very bad situation.
No deal. Celia zaps Hank and flies off, and Haley and Belkar kill Bozzok and Crystal. Roy's corpse is still in the hands of Grubwiggler. The Thieves Guild collapses, and now the whole of Greysky is in civil war. Likelihood of getting Roy's body back, rezzing him and getting out, virtually nil. Bad situation.
Deal. Everyone is okay, the city is relatively stable, and Celia now has the Thieves Guild on her side in getting back Roy. That's good!

You're assuming a lot in your "situations." She knew that Bozzok was facing Haley without Crystal (#614), so your first option is out. I don't see how Greysky would know Bozzok was dead instantaneously (is there a server message when he dies or something?) so the "civil war" in your second scenario is unrealistic.

In Celia's situation, it is entirely sensible to risk a bit of ire from Haley for the chance to get Roy back. And from my situation as a reader, I want Roy back too! Good for you, Celia. :smallbiggrin:

In my situation as a reader, I want Celia to get a boot to the ass, pronto. :smallannoyed:

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 03:18 AM

It's still debatable whether she's even helped at all. Why's the guild going to help recover Roy's corpse, let alone resurrect him, when they find out there's no windfall? We'll have to see how the comic plays out before we can even say that she managed to fulfill her OWN goals.
Definitely. :smallbiggrin: There's a lot that can go wrong from this point on, although we may have to wait a bit - I think this latest comic (#622) signals a switch to other characters. My gut feeling however is that we're nearly at the point where Roy will be resurrected.

Certainly it resulted in humor ("You ditz!"), but since Haley accepting the deal was done between strips, Celia had the opportunity to explain the details at that time as well.
Rule of Funny trumps all. :smallbiggrin:

Grub's "business" is a fingernail away from necromancy. Since necromancy clearly figures into Celia's idea of evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), why would she consider it legitimate? Especially given her reaction once she learned what Grub was really up to.
Eh, I think we're putting too much thought into this. My opinion is that Celia thinks stealing is bad, ergo stolen loot is bad. I don't think she cares that much about the personality of the people from where it came from.

Celia did not know the full extent of her thievery over the years, but Hank at least has a good idea of it, judging by how eagerly he's anticipating their "windfall." If she was a better negotiator, she would have caught some gleam in his eye when he was sneaking that little clause into the contract.
Maybe, although I'd argue that negotiation under battle situations would have made things a bit tense. To deflect the obiosuly counter argument, yes, making negotiations like that under tense situations makes it likely mistakes will be made, but you've got to do the best you can in the situation. I can see how Celia thought it was a good idea at the time, and still thinks it's a good idea now.

Personally though, I get the feeling that Celia doesn't care that much about money, other than what it can be used for. That's just my current impression; I'm fully prepared to be wrong on that. :smallwink:

And how would you go about it? Sit down and talk with her, or throw the entire bag down a well while her back was turned?
Now you're changing the argument. :smallwink: You were arguing whether it was right for Celia to want to "fix" Haley's kleptomania, and it seemed right to me. As to whether this is the best way, maybe, maybe not. But I can see how Celia has a dislike of Haley's bag of stolen loot.

I'm glad you qualified it with "from Celia's perspective" before saying it made sense. I was beginning to lose hope.
This is all arguing from Celia's perspective. I could do the same for Miko too - I thought the hate against her was unjustified and a lot of what she did made sense from her point of view too. But that's for a different day, possibly one that occurred a couple of years ago. :smallbiggrin:

You're assuming a lot in your "situations." She knew that Bozzok was facing Haley without Crystal (#614), so your first option is out. I don't see how Greysky would know Bozzok was dead instantaneously (is there a server message when he dies or something?) so the "civil war" in your second scenario is unrealistic.
The first option was a summary of the situation - as far as Celia knew Haley, Belkar, Crystal and Bozzok were mixing it up. She didn't know how the battle was faring.

The flaw with the second option was that Celia was probably a bit too naive to know that Greysky was a lawless town that is likely to erupt into violence as soon as there is a power vaccuum. I was assuming Hank filled her in and she believed him. :smallwink: However I'd suspect that Greysky has many eyes in the employ of many people, and that as soon as one group is significantly weakened the other power groups would quickly make their move. That's the sort of town it appears to be.

In my situation as a reader, I want Celia to get a boot to the ass, pronto. :smallannoyed:
:smallsmile:. Personally, I want to see the group get back together again and head out to Girard's Gate ASAP. It probably would be best for Celia to leave at that point - she isn't the sort of character you'd want up against Xykon. Well, maybe not the sort I want against Xykon, apparently many of you would like to see Celia the Zombie Sylph. :smallwink:

EvilJames

2009-01-14, 03:21 AM

I don't blame her for not knowing everything; I blame her for not knowing everything and refusing to ask questions.

She doesn't ask about why Greysky's not a good place to stop.
She doesn't ask what Grubwiggler is actually going to do with Roy's body.
She doesn't ask about Haley's money before promising it to someone else.
She doesn't even ask her boyfriend if he knows how to shoot lightning from his fingers before handing over her talisman!

She whines constantly about not being knowledgeable about the adventuring world, yet she absolutely refuses to rectify the situation despite being forced to live in that world. Worst of all, when called on her bull, she doesn't act repentant; she acts snide and overbearing. As usual.

But by all means, continue defending her. I just want Haley to line up a boot with her bony fairy ass like she was planning originally.
1) Actually she did ask the first question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) and got no satisfactory answer from Haley. At least none that was satisfactory to her as she still doesn't necessarily trust Haley's judgment as an adventurer.
2) Why would she ask if she already thought she knew? This was a poor judgment call for lawyer to make but we all roll "1s" now and again.
3) It's likely since her agreement with the guild solves all of her and Haley's problems right here and now (at least the ones Celia's been made aware of mind you), that she deemed it an unfortunate but necessary cost. One that She hoped Haley would be able to cooperate with since, after all it does solve all of her and Haley's problems right here and now. Now her arguments made with Haley may insinuate other ideas but things said in a heated argument are not always the most rational things we say.
4) Again why would she ask that where she's from everyone she knows can do this. Unless it comes up she has no reason to ask this. If I see you sitting in a chair I have no reason to ask if you can walk. I'm just going assume you can unless there is something about you or around you that suggests other wise.

5) please point out where she whines about not being an adventurer and where she gets called on her "bull" I may have missed them.
Wow defending her was easier than I thought.

I will say however that she is a bit on the naive side and by "bit" I mean a "lot" but it's in a tourist sort of way.

Also that brand new magic weapon you mentioned doesn't mean much to Celia in her assessment of her and Haley's odds of survival because her last one didn't help much and she knows Haley is fighting close range with a bow which is far from ideal. So she has no reason to assume that she is dealing from a position of strength as she might very well still lose when she begins negotiating.

Finwe

2009-01-14, 03:35 AM

1) Actually she did ask the first question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) and got no satisfactory answer from Haley.

Trust me. In all likelihood, there won't be any clerics there anyways. At least, not interested in helping Roy. Or Belkar, for that matter. It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets. Not everywhere on this plane is happy fun sunshine land, you know.

Haley makes it pretty clear that the city's an unfriendly, dangerous place. Generally, if the seasoned adventurer thinks it's a bad idea to go somewhere, it's probably a pretty dangerous place.

At least none that was satisfactory to her as she still doesn't necessarily trust Haley's judgment as an adventurer.

And the fact that she doesn't trust the judgment of someone who obviously has far more experience with such things is an acceptable excuse for her mistake?

3) It's likely since her agreement with the guild solves all of her and Haley's problems right here and now

Debatable. There's way too many if's and and but's going on to determine whether the guild will actually end up helping at all.

4) Again why would she ask that where she's from everyone she knows can do this. Unless it comes up she has no reason to ask this. If I see you sitting in a chair I have no reason to ask if you can walk. I'm just going assume you can unless there is something about you or around you that suggests other wise.

Yes, it was reasonable for her to make a few mistakes based on her lack of familiarity with the plane. But she keeps making similar mistakes over and over, even ignoring the advice of someone who is clearly much more experienced than her.

Wow defending her was easier than I thought.

Yeah, real bang up job you did there, champ.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 03:40 AM

1) Actually she did ask the first question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) and got no satisfactory answer from Haley. At least none that was satisfactory to her as she still doesn't necessarily trust Haley's judgment as an adventurer.

As I said before, "It's a dangerous place where people get killed" and "there are no clerics there that will help Roy" should be satisfactory to anyone but an idiot.

2) Why would she ask if she already thought she knew? This was a poor judgment call for lawyer to make but we all roll "1s" now and again.

"We all roll 1s." Well, as far as excuses for Celia go, you win the originality award at least.

3) It's likely since her agreement with the guild solves all of her and Haley's problems right here and now (at least the ones Celia's been made aware of mind you), that she deemed it an unfortunate but necessary cost. One that She hoped Haley would be able to cooperate with since, after all it does solve all of her and Haley's problems right here and now. Now her arguments made with Haley may insinuate other ideas but things said in a heated argument are not always the most rational things we say.

But they are usually the things we are really thinking. ("You ditz!")

4) Again why would she ask that where she's from everyone she knows can do this. Unless it comes up she has no reason to ask this. If I see you sitting in a chair I have no reason to ask if you can walk. I'm just going assume you can unless there is something about you or around you that suggests other wise.

Again, making just one of these bad assumptions would be fine. When would YOU start asking questions about the plane you're in? After the second mistake? The third?

5) please point out where she whines about not being an adventurer and where she gets called on her "bull" I may have missed them.

Not being an adventurer: "Some of us aren't professional murderers", "You're always expecting ME to know things I would have no way of learning", "I could get back to school, where I actually understand what's going on", etc.

Called on her bull: "Do you have any idea what you've done?"
(Snidely) "Betrayed your principles all over the friggin' place."

Caught up, now?

Wow defending her was easier than I thought.

Doing it effectively, however...

EDIT: Response to Trazoi in following post.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 03:50 AM

Eh, I think we're putting too much thought into this. My opinion is that Celia thinks stealing is bad, ergo stolen loot is bad. I don't think she cares that much about the personality of the people from where it came from.

Of course she doesn't care; that's what I've been saying. But she can't both not care about the big picture (i.e. the moral ramifications of resurrecting killers) AND be concerned with the greater good (curing Haley's kleptomania by stealing from her.) That just makes her a - you guessed it - hypocrite.

Maybe, although I'd argue that negotiation under battle situations would have made things a bit tense. To deflect the obiosuly counter argument, yes, making negotiations like that under tense situations makes it likely mistakes will be made, but you've got to do the best you can in the situation. I can see how Celia thought it was a good idea at the time, and still thinks it's a good idea now.

Whereas I can see why Haley wants to strangle her. And I'm glad you concede that it was possibly a mistake, especially since it was.

Personally though, I get the feeling that Celia doesn't care that much about money, other than what it can be used for. That's just my current impression; I'm fully prepared to be wrong on that. :smallwink:

She certainly doesn't care about other people's money.

Now you're changing the argument. :smallwink: You were arguing whether it was right for Celia to want to "fix" Haley's kleptomania, and it seemed right to me. As to whether this is the best way, maybe, maybe not. But I can see how Celia has a dislike of Haley's bag of stolen loot.

How am I changing the argument? Throwing the bag down the well would be an attempt to fix your friend, whether she likes it or not. That's what Celia did to Haley. Talking to her about it would be helping her to fix herself, which is arguably what a true friend would do.

This is all arguing from Celia's perspective. I could do the same for Miko too - I thought the hate against her was unjustified and a lot of what she did made sense from her point of view too. But that's for a different day, possibly one that occurred a couple of years ago. :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't Haley's perspective matter also? It's on her behalf that I'm arguing so strenuously.

The first option was a summary of the situation - as far as Celia knew Haley, Belkar, Crystal and Bozzok were mixing it up. She didn't know how the battle was faring.

Incorrect. She saw Bozzok break away and chase her and Haley, leaving Crystal behind with Belkar (#614). There was no "mixing up."

The flaw with the second option was that Celia was probably a bit too naive to know that Greysky was a lawless town that is likely to erupt into violence as soon as there is a power vaccuum. I was assuming Hank filled her in and she believed him. :smallwink: However I'd suspect that Greysky has many eyes in the employ of many people, and that as soon as one group is significantly weakened the other power groups would quickly make their move. That's the sort of town it appears to be.

If they have as many eyes as you claim, then they already know Haley wasn't in the Guild (on account of them trying to kill her and failing), making Hank's entire ruse pointless. The fact that he can trick the town into thinking she was in their employ all along means they don't know what's going on inside Pete's house - which also means Bozzok's death would go unnoticed. QED.

:smallsmile:. Personally, I want to see the group get back together again and head out to Girard's Gate ASAP. It probably would be best for Celia to leave at that point - she isn't the sort of character you'd want up against Xykon. Well, maybe not the sort I want against Xykon, apparently many of you would like to see Celia the Zombie Sylph. :smallwink:

She's rigid enough as it is, thanks. :smallsigh:

EvilJames

2009-01-14, 04:33 AM

As I said before, "It's a dangerous place where people get killed" and "there are no clerics there that will help Roy" should be satisfactory to anyone but an idiot.
She doesn't say there are none she just says it's likely that there are none that would be helpful. To Celia any chance needs to be explored in this situation.

Haley makes it pretty clear that the city's an unfriendly, dangerous place. Generally, if the seasoned adventurer thinks it's a bad idea to go somewhere, it's probably a pretty dangerous place.

And the fact that she doesn't trust the judgment of someone who obviously has far more experience with such things is an acceptable excuse for her mistake?

There's nothing obvious about it. Celia's not an adventurer and since all she gets is in answer it's dangerous, well isn't a city ruled by a lich with an army of hobgoblins dangerous as well? So in Celia's mind how can a city of humans be that much worse that it's not worth checking. In fact if she had found the priests of Loki she very well could have succeded. (specculation I know but still we have no reason to think they wouldn't have helped for the right price so long as they didn't know Haley was involved)

"We all roll 1s." Well, as far as excuses for Celia go, you win the originality award at least.
Thank you. You didn't dispute my point however.

But they are usually the things we are really thinking. ("You ditz!")
To some degree yes but they rarely have aproduct of the actual reasoning behind a decision

people get killed" and "there are no clerics there that will help Roy" should be satisfactory to anyone but an idiot.[/QUOTE]
She doesn't say there are none she just says it's likely that there are none that would be helpful. To Celia any chance needs to be explored in this situation.

Haley makes it pretty clear that the city's an unfriendly, dangerous place. Generally, if the seasoned adventurer thinks it's a bad idea to go somewhere, it's probably a pretty dangerous place.

And the fact that she doesn't trust the judgment of someone who obviously has far more experience with such things is an acceptable excuse for her mistake?

There's nothing obvious about it. Celia's not an adventurer and since all she gets is in answer it's dangerous, well isn't a city ruled by a lich with an army of hobgoblins dangerous as well? So in Celia's mind how can a city of humans be that much worse that it's not worth checking. In fact if she had found the priests of Loki she very well could have succeeded. (speculation I know but still we have no reason to think they wouldn't have helped for the right price so long as they didn't know Haley was involved)

"We all roll 1s." Well, as far as excuses for Celia go, you win the originality award at least.
Thank you. You didn't dispute my point however.

Again, making just one of these bad assumptions would be fine. When would YOU start asking questions about the plane you're in? After the second mistake? The third?

Yes, it was reasonable for her to make a few mistakes based on her lack of familiarity with the plane. But she keeps making similar mistakes over and over, even ignoring the advice of someone who is clearly much more experienced than her.
Which is exactly what people do. Even intelligent people can make similar mistakes repeatedly when in an unfamiliar situation or a situation they aren't comfortable in. Particularly if something is so common where they are from it may take quite some time to become accustomed too it. For example there is a professor I know at a local college. He immigrated here from Africa a long time ago and is a very intelligent man. Witchcraft has a very different meaning where he's from than here. So anytime anyone refers to themselves or someone else as a Witch, well the look on his face says it will still be sometime before he is accustomed to that.

Not being an adventurer: "Some of us aren't professional murderers", "You're always expecting ME to know things I would have no way of learning", "I could get back to school, where I actually understand what's going on", etc.
Well you do have me on that one

Called on her bull: "Do you have any idea what you've done?"
(Snidely) "Betrayed your principles all over the friggin' place."

Caught up, now?
That last one isn't really being called on her "bull" now is it? It's Haley being very upset about having to spend a LOT of money. Celia's response implies that since Haley doesn't really respect Celia's beliefs, Celia doesn't respect Haley's love of money. That's not really hypocritical

Debatable. There's way too many if's and and but's going on to determine whether the guild will actually end up helping at all.
True the future is yet to be seen but that doesn't negate that the agreement does cover all the problems where as Haley's solution only covers one.

Doing it effectively, however...
is still pretty easy

Yeah, real bang up job you did there, champ.
well yeah I'd say I did

A large problem with this continued argument is that as you said you assumed she is an idiot. Therefore you're going to assume that the only possible reason for any action she takes is because she's an idiot, no matter what leads up to it or what's the result. Any possible other options given can easily be countered with some variation of "no she's just an idiot" to which I can only counter wth some variation of "No she's this [non idiot]" (thing cut me a little slack on my wordsmithing it's very late here) The whole arument then devolves into automatic game saying of anything the other person says.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 05:33 AM

There's too many arguments in one post. :smallsmile: I'm going to have to condense these quotes down, lest the whole thread get bogged down in multiple counter arguments (too late!)

Of course she doesn't care; that's what I've been saying. But she can't both not care about the big picture (i.e. the moral ramifications of resurrecting killers) AND be concerned with the greater good (curing Haley's kleptomania by stealing from her.) That just makes her a - you guessed it - hypocrite.
From what I've seen in comic, Celia really doesn't like killing. Here she's got an opportunity to undo some of that as a side effect of the deal. I dare say her real main objective is getting Roy back, but a chance to undo what she sees as a great evil is one I can see her taking.

Now, there's a very valid argument that rezzing a bunch of thugs may not actually make the world a better place. I don't know if Celia has thought that far ahead. I never wrote that she was not naive. :smallbiggrin:

Whereas I can see why Haley wants to strangle her. And I'm glad you concede that it was possibly a mistake, especially since it was.
...
Doesn't Haley's perspective matter also? It's on her behalf that I'm arguing so strenuously.
Combined quotes here, as the answers the same.

Haley's perspective doesn't matter for the purposes of the argument, which is wheter or not Celia is a dumb boop. All that matters is the world from Celia's perspective.

She certainly doesn't care about other people's money.
Neither does Haley. It's stolen money. Celia doesn't consider the money to be Haley's.

A better argument is that Celia doesn't care about Haley's feelings, to which I somewhat agree. For Celia, I think her morality trumps keeping her teammates happy, which is probably the source of all the hate towards her. However, I don't see that as a bad thing that Celia sticks to her principles. Although it does make a point about how it might get annoying if you were to rigidly adhere to that in a D&D session. :smalltongue:

How am I changing the argument? Throwing the bag down the well would be an attempt to fix your friend, whether she likes it or not. That's what Celia did to Haley. Talking to her about it would be helping her to fix herself, which is arguably what a true friend would do.
There's two arguments here. Would Celia be justified to want to change Haley's thieving ways? Is this the right way for Celia to change Haley's thieving ways?I argue "definitely okay" to the first, "probably not" to the second.

Of course, I have doubts that Celia meant this as a lesson for Haley instead of a way to get out of a sticky situation (for Celia!) and get Roy back.

Incorrect. She saw Bozzok break away and chase her and Haley, leaving Crystal behind with Belkar (#614). There was no "mixing up."
She saw that, then was dragged into the trophy room leaving Haley fighting Bozzok, Belkar and Crystal somewhere, and who knows how many other thieves prowling around. Once in the room she had no way of knowing what was happening out there. By the time she got back to Haley, Belkar had joined her, so situations were changing.

If they have as many eyes as you claim, then they already know Haley wasn't in the Guild (on account of them trying to kill her and failing), making Hank's entire ruse pointless. The fact that he can trick the town into thinking she was in their employ all along means they don't know what's going on inside Pete's house - which also means Bozzok's death would go unnoticed. QED.
We're talking about future events here. Anything could happen, any number of lies could be told. I agree that there is unlikely to be spies within Pete's house, but something like a full on assault by the Thieves Guild would not go unnoticed. And I'm sure someone would spot Bozzok going in and not coming out (or coming out dead). Even if Hank managed to cover things up for a bit, something like the death of the Guild would leak out eventually. And in a town like Greysky, I'd wager it would be sooner rather than later.

Maybe Haley and Celia would have a day in order to storm Grubby's castle and get Roy back before all hell would break loose. However, it seems sure to me that it's a heck of a lot easier to try that with Greysky politically stable and with the backing of the Thieves Guild and the Church of Loki.

She's rigid enough as it is, thanks. :smallsigh:
I didn't think zombies were rigid. I always thought of them as kind of squishy. :smallsmile:

Finwe

2009-01-14, 07:34 AM

She doesn't say there are none she just says it's likely that there are none that would be helpful. To Celia any chance needs to be explored in this situation.

It's irresponsible and foolish to take risks when there's a much safer route to be had. Celia went to Greysky out of expedience, not necessity. Why risk going into the dangerous city alone and unarmed (a pacifist is by default unarmed)? Because she can't wait another week or so to get to Cliffport? Sure, I can understand she wants to get back to school, but its not really worth risking your and others' lives to get back a little earlier, is it?

There's nothing obvious about it.

What is not obvious about "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." It sounds to me like Haley was trying to communicate that the city was dangerous. Maybe it is difficult for you to read through the subtle nuances of her speak, so I highlighted the important part for you.

Celia's not an adventurer and since all she gets is in answer it's dangerous, well isn't a city ruled by a lich with an army of hobgoblins dangerous as well?

Oh yeah, she's not an adventurer. Therefore, she's free to ignore any advice that the experienced adventurer gives her? :smallconfused:

If you were in an unfamiliar foreign land, traveling with someone who's obviously very adept at surviving in that land, and they warn you that a certain place is dangerous, it's idiotic to ignore the warning and go there ALONE, without their knowledge, just because you can't be bothered to wait a little longer.

How does this reasoning not sound stupid to you?
"I was told this place was dangerous, but I wasn't told why, therefore that warning's not worth listening to."

Also, you'll note that after receiving the answer that the city is dangerous, she doesn't ask for further clarification. She simply decides that Haley is wrong, despite Haley being infinitely more experienced with the area.

So in Celia's mind how can a city of humans be that much worse that it's not worth checking.

Are you arguing that such reasoning is not stupid? That it's reasonable to assume Greysky can't be very dangerous, since it's less dangerous than a city full of Hobgoblins ruled by a murderous epic-level lich? Yeah, great thinking there.

In fact if she had found the priests of Loki she very well could have succeded. (specculation I know but still we have no reason to think they wouldn't have helped for the right price so long as they didn't know Haley was involved)

The city is a place where people are killed for having money. Why, then, would anyone expect to find someone willing to shell out 10,000 gp for a complete stranger? Resurrections cost huge sums of money. If Celia had been walking around with enough money to bribe the clerics of Loki into helping her, you can bet she wouldn't have made it 100 ft into the city before being mugged.

She doesn't say there are none she just says it's likely that there are none that would be helpful. To Celia any chance needs to be explored in this situation.

Why does any chance need to be explored in this situation? Haley has told her of another city where's she's sure they can find help. Once again: there's no good reason for Celia to place herself and Belkar at risk, when they know of another place that is virtually guaranteed to have what they want. She has two choices:

A. Go into city that a high-level adventurer thinks is unfriendly at best and dangerous at worst, at night, with no defenses, looking for a cleric who probably doesn't exist, without said high-level adventurer's protection, without any knowledge of the local area. Basically, throw yourself at the mercy of a city filled with cutthroats.

B. Go to the friendlier, nicer city. Take a week or two longer. Very little risk.

Now, even if we say that speed is of absolute essence. There are much better ways of going about this than waltzing into the city with no plan and zero information.

There's nothing obvious about it. Celia's not an adventurer and since all she gets is an answer it's dangerous, well isn't a city ruled by a lich with an army of hobgoblins dangerous as well? So in Celia's mind how can a city of humans be that much worse that it's not worth checking. In fact if she had found the priests of Loki she very well could have succeeded. (speculation I know but still we have no reason to think they wouldn't have helped for the right price so long as they didn't know Haley was involved)
Thank you. You didn't dispute my point however.

Looks like you accidentally copied your reply twice :smallsmile:.

Which is exactly what people do. Even intelligent people can make similar mistakes repeatedly when in an unfamiliar situation or a situation they aren't comfortable in.

Intelligent people, when confronted with a mistake, look at the causes of their mistake, figure out how to avoid them in the future, and then try to avoid those same mistakes. Celia hasn't shown any sign of having done that.

A large problem with this continued argument is that as you said you assumed she is an idiot. Therefore you're going to assume that the only possible reason for any action she takes is because she's an idiot, no matter what leads up to it or what's the result. Any possible other options given can easily be countered with some variation of "no she's just an idiot" to which I can only counter wth some variation of "No she's this [non idiot]" (thing cut me a little slack on my wordsmithing it's very late here) The whole arument then devolves into automatic game saying of anything the other person says.

A large problem with this continued argument is that as you said you assumed that I assume Celia is an idiot. Therefore you're going to assume that the only possible reasoning for any argument I make is because I arbitrarily say so, no matter what evidence I give. Any actual evidence given can be countered with some variation of "no, you just say that because you think she's an idiot" to which I counter with some variation of "No she's an idiot for these reasons." (Recursion is fun :smalltongue:)

Trixie

2009-01-14, 12:32 PM

She knew Bozzok was the only one chasing them, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0614.html) and she saw a freshly healed Haley walk out the door with a brand new magic weapon. Explain how anyone could conjure up a losing scenario from that. Well, anyone with a brain that is.

Yeah, losing to someone with a decent melee weapon and a 4-5 levels more than you (when all you have is a ranged weapon which is almost useless in melee) is pretty much inconceivable. :smallsigh:

Remind me, how badly Roy stomped poor, weak Xykon in their last fight? :smallamused:

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 12:38 PM

Yeah, losing to someone with a decent melee weapon and a 4-5 levels more than you (when all you have is a ranged weapon which is almost useless in melee) is pretty much inconceivable. :smallsigh:

Stop assuming, you don't know anything about Bozzok's weapon. And if she was so pessimistic about Haley's chances, why was she so happily saying "Come on, Haley, you can do it!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) during the fight?

Remind me, how badly Roy stomped poor, weak Xykon in their last fight? :smallamused:

What does that have to do with the price of cheese in Switzerland? Not a thing.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 01:03 PM

There's too many arguments in one post. :smallsmile: I'm going to have to condense these quotes down, lest the whole thread get bogged down in multiple counter arguments (too late!)

I dislike "quote-stream" arguments myself - they tend to prevent new debaters from getting involved. But it's the best way of illustrating which particular points I'm refuting. :smallsigh:

From what I've seen in comic, Celia really doesn't like killing. Here she's got an opportunity to undo some of that as a side effect of the deal. I dare say her real main objective is getting Roy back, but a chance to undo what she sees as a great evil is one I can see her taking.

Now, there's a very valid argument that rezzing a bunch of thugs may not actually make the world a better place. I don't know if Celia has thought that far ahead. I never wrote that she was not naive. :smallbiggrin:

She has not thought far ahead at all. If she's not willing to do that, then her commitment to pacifism will be short-lived at best and counterproductive at worst. I'm still waiting for that other shoe to drop; when the life she's so fixated on saving is truly one that deserves to die, what will she do?

Combined quotes here, as the answers the same.

Haley's perspective doesn't matter for the purposes of the argument, which is wheter or not Celia is a dumb boop. All that matters is the world from Celia's perspective.

You're wrong, it does. If we ignore Haley's point of view, what scale are we using to measure Celia's idiocy?

Neither does Haley. It's stolen money. Celia doesn't consider the money to be Haley's.

A better argument is that Celia doesn't care about Haley's feelings, to which I somewhat agree. For Celia, I think her morality trumps keeping her teammates happy, which is probably the source of all the hate towards her. However, I don't see that as a bad thing that Celia sticks to her principles. Although it does make a point about how it might get annoying if you were to rigidly adhere to that in a D&D session. :smalltongue:

She does not stick to her principles. I've provided numerous examples in the "hypocrite" thread. She is 'against violence' but cheers Haley on while she is perforating Bozzok (#615). She is against both undead and golems (#538, #578), but considers Grubwiggler's business legitimate (#622). She dislikes thievery but makes deals with thieves. She's a hypocrite, end of story.

There's two arguments here. Would Celia be justified to want to change Haley's thieving ways? Is this the right way for Celia to change Haley's thieving ways?I argue "definitely okay" to the first, "probably not" to the second.

Of course, I have doubts that Celia meant this as a lesson for Haley instead of a way to get out of a sticky situation (for Celia!) and get Roy back.

I'm only arguing the second. She can want to change Haley 'till the cows come home for all I care. The fact is that she shouldn't be trying to affect that change behind Haley's back.

She saw that, then was dragged into the trophy room leaving Haley fighting Bozzok, Belkar and Crystal somewhere, and who knows how many other thieves prowling around. Once in the room she had no way of knowing what was happening out there. By the time she got back to Haley, Belkar had joined her, so situations were changing.

When she last saw Haley she was very optimistic about Haley's chances (#615). It's unrealistic for anyone to expect things to go downhill that rapidly in such a short time, especially with two of the PCs fully empowered and kicking butt. Face it, the simple fact is that she didn't care if Haley was winning or not as long as she could satisfy her precious principles.

We're talking about future events here. Anything could happen, any number of lies could be told. I agree that there is unlikely to be spies within Pete's house, but something like a full on assault by the Thieves Guild would not go unnoticed. And I'm sure someone would spot Bozzok going in and not coming out (or coming out dead). Even if Hank managed to cover things up for a bit, something like the death of the Guild would leak out eventually. And in a town like Greysky, I'd wager it would be sooner rather than later.

Eventually. Thank you. Not instantaneous carnage in the streets.

And if the whole Thieves' Guild is in on it, who exactly would be watching the house? The Blacksmith Union?

Maybe Haley and Celia would have a day in order to storm Grubby's castle and get Roy back before all hell would break loose. However, it seems sure to me that it's a heck of a lot easier to try that with Greysky politically stable and with the backing of the Thieves Guild and the Church of Loki.

Why would they back her when she has no money to pay them? And even if they still do, what do you think's going to happen after Roy is revived? That Haley will meekly turn over her proceeds to an organization she hates, that tried to murder her and failed?

They'll just be back at square one. This whole interlude would have been meaningless.

I didn't think zombies were rigid. I always thought of them as kind of squishy. :smallsmile:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 01:14 PM

There is a big difference between "is willing to kill golems" and "is against golems" (one is a matter of whats OK to use lethal force against, another is a matter of "its wrong to create golems")

There is also a difference between violence and killing. Whacking something into unconsciousness? More OK than Terminating a life prematurely, in some philosophies.

Isn't hypocrisy doing something that you claim to object to, rather than merely benefitting from it?

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 01:42 PM

There is a big difference between "is willing to kill golems" and "is against golems" (one is a matter of whats OK to use lethal force against, another is a matter of "its wrong to create golems")

So she's fine with creating golems? What exactly makes Grubwiggler a "monster" (#576) then?

There is also a difference between violence and killing. Whacking something into unconsciousness? More OK than Terminating a life prematurely, in some philosophies.

Isn't hypocrisy doing something that you claim to object to, rather than merely benefitting from it?

"Haley, if I was willing to risk killing these people, I would have been blasting them with lightning this whole time." But turning Bozzok into a pincushion as he charges is cheerworthy, right?

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 01:53 PM

Turning her boyfriend into a creature would come as a bit of a shock. Or, it could be a matter of considering it pretty monstrous, but recognizing that monstrous as it is, its legal.

Cheering Haley on when shooting Bozzok is when they are up to their ears in trouble. Added to which, Bozzok can take it- the ordinary thieves can't. hence the comment about risk.

Note she doesn't look quite so enthused when Haley freeze-kills an ordinary thief. But nor does she try and stop Haley shooting.

I think she's more a "minimum possible violence" as opposed to "no violence at all" person. And very un-keen on doing any killing herself.

If we saw Celia actually killing something, the complaints would be more hypocritical.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 02:07 PM

Turning her boyfriend into a creature would come as a bit of a shock. Or, it could be a matter of considering it pretty monstrous, but recognizing that monstrous as it is, its legal.

"She was shocked." "She didn't mean it." "She was being sarcastic." Like I said earlier, I'd love to have some of you on my defense team.

Cheering Haley on when shooting Bozzok is when they are up to their ears in trouble. Added to which, Bozzok can take it- the ordinary thieves can't. hence the comment about risk.

Exactly, violence is okay when they're in trouble. You're catching on a lot quicker than she did.

Note she doesn't look quite so enthused when Haley freeze-kills an ordinary thief. But nor does she try and stop Haley shooting.

"Ooh! What is that peppermint smell?" doesn't sound enthused to you?

I think she's more a "minimum possible violence" as opposed to "no violence at all" person. And very un-keen on doing any killing herself. If we saw Celia actually killing something, the complaints would be more hypocritical.

She can have whatever compunctions she likes, that doesn't give her the right to hamper the PCs.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 02:12 PM

Suggesting the aforementioned truce- Haley didn't have to take it. Not sure if that is hampering. Hampering would be jumping in Haley's way or grabbing her arm each time she tries to shoot.

If anything, she actually helped Haley in the fight earlier, by drawing people away from her. And avoided actually killing anyone in the process.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 02:17 PM

Suggesting the aforementioned truce- Haley didn't have to take it. Not sure if that is hampering. Hampering would be jumping in Haley's way or grabbing her arm each time she tries to shoot.

Being disingenuous about the details to ensure she takes the deal = hampering.

If anything, she actually helped Haley in the fight earlier, by drawing people away from her. And avoided actually killing anyone in the process.

I have no problem with that, or with casting a fog to cover Haley and Cole/Belkar. She has done SOME useful actions.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 02:22 PM

and if we go all the way back to her going into greysky in the first place- that was the cause of the Thieves guild discovering Haley. So, from her point of view, the whole mess really is her fault, and she needs to fix as much as possible of the damage caused.

Pity that the lost lives of Bozzok's goons are considered the damage that needs fixing, but on the bright side, it would show that she knew she'd made a mistake back then.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 02:32 PM

Trying to fix everything yourself without caring about the feelings of others is arrogance in the extreme. I have no problem with her wanting to rectify her mistake, but screwing over her teammate in the process was neither necessary nor fair. And helping people that were willing to kill all of them to do it is just plain stupid.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 02:40 PM

it's also a problem not limited to her.

V killing Kubota without any concern for the consequences for the Azure City refugees, Roy taking on Xykon alone, Redcloak gambling all the lives of the world in the hope of a better position for the goblin people, Miko assuming that she has the right to punish Shojo with death instead of trusting Hinjo, Haley thinking she has the right to con her party members because its for her father's sake, arrogance is present in many of the characters in the strip.

Celia's arrogance at least is bent toward saving lives (even not very deserving ones) rather than ending them.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 02:49 PM

it's also a problem not limited to her.

V killing Kubota without any concern for the consequences for the Azure City refugees,

Which action he has yet to face the consequences for (Hinjo and Lien's investigation ensures that this will be a plot point in the future),

Roy taking on Xykon alone,

We saw how that ended,

Redcloak gambling all the lives of the world in the hope of a better position for the goblin people,

His comeuppance is also forthcoming,

Miko assuming that she has the right to punish Shojo with death instead of trusting Hinjo,

We saw how that ended,

Haley thinking she has the right to con her party members because its for her father's sake,

She got her comeuppance by losing her speech (and just now, her savings)

arrogance is present in many of the characters in the strip.

And every single one except Celia either has punishment coming to them or has already been punished. All I want is for Celia to get what's coming to her.

Celia's arrogance at least is bent toward saving lives (even not very deserving ones) rather than ending them.

How is reviving the thieves' guild - and saving Bozzok! - likely to save more lives than V killing Kubota? Since you brought that up.

B.I.T.T.

2009-01-14, 02:52 PM

I don't think Celia's dumb really, I think she:

a) Has a higher sense of morality then most adventurers
b) Doesn't have all the information.

Celia had no idea why Haley left the Guild and had no idea that it was to save her father. So to her this was a good solution. They get much needed help to raid Froggy's place and retrieve Roy, the Guild is happy because they get their rep protected and a number of their members rezzed, and Roy returns. All for the cost of a few gold pieces (which, being an outsider she may not fully understand the fascination with anyway). Bringing all that in mind, it doesn't sound like too bad a plan. Especially if it gets the three of them out of town without having to fight the entire guild.

So in short, Celia isn't dumb in my opinion, she's just sort of nieve about how things work in this world, plus is acting on limited information.

This has probably been said, but I was too lazy to read all the replies.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 02:53 PM

added to which- what evidence does she have of them being especially malevolent? Only Haley's word.

a comeuppance might be deserved, but it should be on a par with the damage she's done. Which at the moment seems to consist of a potentially impoverished Haley.

Maybe the aforementioned disbarring, or rather, since not a full lawyer, maybe expelling from Plane of Air university?

"Save the Villain" may be a mistake, but "Murder Is The Only Solution" is commonly in fiction a bigger one.

EvilJames

2009-01-14, 03:48 PM

It's irresponsible and foolish to take risks when there's a much safer route to be had. Celia went to Greysky out of expedience, not necessity. Why risk going into the dangerous city alone and unarmed (a pacifist is by default unarmed)? Because she can't wait another week or so to get to Cliffport? Sure, I can understand she wants to get back to school, but its not really worth risking your and others' lives to get back a little earlier, is it?

When you don't really know how long you have till a lich destroys the world? yes I'd say getting this taken care of a little earlier is a good risk.

What is not obvious about "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." It sounds to me like Haley was trying to communicate that the city was dangerous. Maybe it is difficult for you to read through the subtle nuances of her speak, so I highlighted the important part for you.
Insults are unnecessary and beneath the both of us.:smallannoyed:

Oh yeah, she's not an adventurer. Therefore, she's free to ignore any advice that the experienced adventurer gives her? :smallconfused:

If you were in an unfamiliar foreign land, traveling with someone who's obviously very adept at surviving in that land, and they warn you that a certain place is dangerous, it's idiotic to ignore the warning and go there ALONE, without their knowledge, just because you can't be bothered to wait a little longer.

How does this reasoning not sound stupid to you?
"I was told this place was dangerous, but I wasn't told why, therefore that warning's not worth listening to.

Also, you'll note that after receiving the answer that the city is dangerous, she doesn't ask for further clarification. She simply decides that Haley is wrong, despite Haley being infinitely more experienced with the area.

Are you arguing that such reasoning is not stupid? That it's reasonable to assume Greysky can't be very dangerous, since it's less dangerous than a city full of Hobgoblins ruled by a murderous epic-level lich? Yeah, great thinking there.

No I'm saying that she feels Greysky can't be anymore dangerous than a town ruled by an Epic level lich and an army of hobgoblins.
I'm not saying the reasoning wasn't wrong. But there is a difference in being wrong and being stupid.

The city is a place where people are killed for having money. Why, then, would anyone expect to find someone willing to shell out 10,000 gp for a complete stranger? Resurrections cost huge sums of money. If Celia had been walking around with enough money to bribe the clerics of Loki into helping her, you can bet she wouldn't have made it 100 ft into the city before being mugged.

Then this is something neither Haley nor Celia has really thought about no one they know in Cliffport is likely to shell out for a ress either however what they could do in cliffport is what they did do in Greysky (or at least atempted to do, we'll see if it worked) was get a sending sent to Durkon. It's likely they had the money for that at least and no bribe is necessary (unless there's taxes to get around) since the priests would have no knowledge that Haley's involved.

[/QUWhy does any chance need to be explored in this situation? Haley has told her of another city where's she's sure they can find help. Once again: there's no good reason for Celia to place herself and Belkar at risk, when they know of another place that is virtually guaranteed to have what they want. She has two choices:

A. Go into city that a high-level adventurer thinks is unfriendly at best and dangerous at worst, at night, with no defenses, looking for a cleric who probably doesn't exist, without said high-level adventurer's protection, without any knowledge of the local area. Basically, throw yourself at the mercy of a city filled with cutthroats.

B. Go to the friendlier, nicer city. Take a week or two longer. Very little risk.

Now, even if we say that speed is of absolute essence. There are much better ways of going about this than waltzing into the city with no plan and zero information.
We are saying speed is of the essence and Celia doesn't believe Haley is taking that into account. She was after all hanging out in Azure City for months on the slim chance that her companions would return. True she didn't know about the Cloister spell but for Celia that's irrelevant because she initially thought Haley knew and was staying anyway. She doesn't believe Haley is taking the best coarse of action because she has doubts about Haley having taken the best coarse of action since their initial meeting

Looks like you accidentally copied your reply twice :smallsmile:.
it was very late when I wrote this:smalltongue:

Intelligent people, when confronted with a mistake, look at the causes of their mistake, figure out how to avoid them in the future, and then try to avoid those same mistakes. Celia hasn't shown any sign of having done that.

most of her mistakes are just not knowing what questions to ask. That's a skill it takes even intelligent people a long time to master. the other mistake is going into Greysky City and well once she's out I doubt she'll ever come back so...

A large problem with this continued argument is that as you said you assumed that I assume Celia is an idiot. Therefore you're going to assume that the only possible reasoning for any argument I make is because I arbitrarily say so, no matter what evidence I give. Any actual evidence given can be countered with some variation of "no, you just say that because you think she's an idiot" to which I counter with some variation of "No she's an idiot for these reasons." (Recursion is fun :smalltongue:)
Actually no. That statement was directed at optimystik not you. Sorry if there was any confusion. I know you didn't say that specific thing. However you still haven't given any reasons that she is and idiot other than she went into greysky city, which admitidly is a big mistake but one real mistake even a big one does not make one an idiot.

Now if she goes into another city that she's been informed is dangerous I will call her an idiot since that would be repeating a big mistake and to date she really hasn't repeated any mistakes over and over. This statement only stands, however if she becomes an adventurer in the mean time. Since it's pretty much there job to go into places that they've been told are dangerous.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 03:53 PM

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 04:38 PM

What puzzles me is that "Murder a murderer" is greeted with "great idea. Murder isn't evil in this case, etc etc" but "Rob a thief? Terrible. Horrible. Appalling."

Maybe because one's a villainous antagonist and the other's a heroic protagonist?

Come now hamish, that's too easy. If you have no issue with the original crime, of course you would have issue with the "justice" meted out to that crime. The reverse is also true: if you think the original crime was unde

Who was Bozzok killing? Other thieves, to maintain his pride and organization's image. By most societies, including ours, this is not a good enough reason to kill. Haley herself says so (#609). Bozzok's death is poetic justice.

Who was Haley stealing from? Evil people. Theft from Haley is poetic injustice; it punishes Haley for teaching those antagonists a lesson. It would be the author's way of saying she was wrong to rob Grubwiggler for instance.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 04:42 PM

And fellow party members. And conning fellow party members.

haley doesn't steal "to teach evil people a lesson" as far as I can tell. And if she did, just how moral would that be?

Pay Evil Unto Evil is often a moment of moral dissonance.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 04:54 PM

And fellow party members. And conning fellow party members.

Had a feeling you would bring that up. Are you saying they are unaware of what she is doing? Roy at least knows her personality full well, if not the exact moments that she cons them.

haley doesn't steal "to teach evil people a lesson" as far as I can tell. And if she did, just how moral would that be?

Aside from the Order (whose morals are also quite questionable) name one good person she has stolen from.

Pay Evil Unto Evil is often a moment of moral dissonance.

And reviving Evil isn't?

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 05:02 PM

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 05:14 PM

What Measure is a Mook, indeed.

Question is- will this mass rezzing be...?

Rewarded in some way- the rezzed thieves, aware of their afterlives, does something really helpful for the order.

Punished heavily- when Rezzing is complete, Hank turns on Haley- "New deal- and now you're surrounded."

Irrelavent to the future- Haley and company leave Greysky and there are no further references to it.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 05:20 PM

We don't know how evil the slain thieves are- only haleys "of course, all the people I grew up with are jerks" and picking and choosing who to res and who not to would be a bit difficult.

Its like in Austin Powers, the killing of Dr Evil's minions- we see that, even if they are minions of evil, their killing is a tragedy to some people.

They're trying to murder Haley solely on Bozzok's say-so. Does she morally deserve to die for wanting to quit? Did she return to town on a whim? Don't you have all those books that define evil? Look it up.

What Measure is a Mook, indeed.

Question is- will this mass rezzing be...?

Rewarded in some way- the rezzed thieves, aware of their afterlives, does something really helpful for the order.

Punished heavily- when Rezzing is complete, Hank turns on Haley- "New deal- and now you're surrounded."

Irrelavent to the future- Haley and company leave Greysky and there are no further references to it.

Given that they will all be one level weaker when they return, I vote for option 3. It's Bozzok's fate I'm concerned with, not theirs. We still don't know how he'll react to the deal.

EDIT: Still waiting for the name of the good NPC she has stolen from.

Kish

2009-01-14, 05:21 PM

Had a feeling you would bring that up. Are you saying they are unaware of what she is doing? Roy at least knows her personality full well, if not the exact moments that she cons them.

Is that relevant? Your statement, "Who was Haley stealing from? Evil people." is true or it's false, and it's not true.

Aside from the Order (whose morals are also quite questionable) name one good person she has stolen from.

Are you seriously suggesting that there isn't one? That Haley, who is perfectly willing to steal from the people she gives every indication of considering her closest friends and who generally displays a concept of property rights that amounts to, "If it's not bolted down, it's mine," is careful to only steal from those who are either not Good-aligned or in her adventuring party?

That's slightly less of a "wtf?" assertion than asserting that Belkar only kills bad people would be, but only slightly.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 05:27 PM

Is that relevant? Your statement, "Who was Haley stealing from? Evil people." is true or it's false, and it's not true.

Actually, it is very true that she has stolen from evil people. My statement stands.

Are you seriously suggesting that there isn't one? That Haley, who is perfectly willing to steal from the people she gives every indication of considering her closest friends and who generally displays a concept of property rights that amounts to, "If it's not bolted down, it's mine," is careful to only steal from those who are either not Good-aligned or in her adventuring party?

That's slightly less of a "wtf?" assertion than asserting that Belkar only kills bad people would be, but only slightly.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Belkar has demonstrably killed innocent NPCs. Haley has yet to steal from an innocent NPC. Go on, find one to show me.

Renegade Paladin

2009-01-14, 05:28 PM

She doesn't say there are none she just says it's likely that there are none that would be helpful. To Celia any chance needs to be explored in this situation.
You would have a point if they weren't a few days out from Cliffport. Since they were, you don't. It's not a matter of Celia taking the only slim chance available; it's a matter of Celia taking an extraordinary risk to do something they were going to get done safely anyway if she'd just waited a little.

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 05:34 PM

Heck, even Elan and Roy have stolen from or defrauded innocent NPCs in the strip "30 ft per round movement rate" "Sorry I stole from you (twice) It was for a (really) good course" "Accepting hospitality meant for someone else"

Origin of PCs: the first thing we see is Haley doing a robbery. And we have no clues as to the alignment of the robbed. Though admittedly it is in Greysky. But not everyone in Greysky is evil- SOD shows taverns full of adventurers.

Haley's, AKA The Red Blur,'s Rap sheet in Origin is pretty long.

You might allow Conning as not quite stealing- conning fellow party members Roy, Durkon, Elan, V (and the Evil Belkar). In that case, what makes Celia's "con" so much worse?

hamishspence

2009-01-14, 05:36 PM

A few days? I thought they were about 4 weeks away.

EDIT: As I recall, War and XPs map shows Sunken Valley and Greysky as fairly near Azure city, but cliffport is "a thousand miles to the north"

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 05:47 PM

Heck, even Elan and Roy have stolen from or defrauded innocent NPCs in the strip "30 ft per round movement rate" "Sorry I stole from you (twice) It was for a (really) good course" "Accepting hospitality meant for someone else"

Irrelevant, even if those thefts mattered. Neither of them was committed by Haley. If you want to discuss Roy and Elan's thieving habits, send Celia after them.

Besides, for all you know Roy could have been right; it could very well have been karmic providence in the inn. He even offered to pay if it didn't turn out that way.

Origin of PCs: the first thing we see is Haley doing a robbery. And we have no clues as to the alignment of the robbed. Though admittedly it is in Greysky. But not everyone in Greysky is evil- SOD shows taverns full of adventurers.

Haley's, AKA The Red Blur,'s Rap sheet in Origin is pretty long.

A rap sheet is a list of Unlawful deeds, not necessarily evil ones. And unless you saw a good and innocent person on that list then that isn't relevant either.

You might allow Conning as not quite stealing- conning fellow party members Roy, Durkon, Elan, V (and the Evil Belkar). In that case, what makes Celia's "con" so much worse?

The fact that the money is going to their attempted murderers doesn't bother you?

So yeah, still waiting for that NPC.

Kish

2009-01-14, 06:14 PM

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.
Then, it would seem, there is no purpose in continued debate.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 06:22 PM

Then, it would seem, there is no purpose in continued debate.

Since you haven't produced an innocent theft-victim to rebut my statement, indeed there isn't.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 06:25 PM

The fact that the money is going to their attempted murderers doesn't bother you?
Nice dodge there. The fact that Haley is happy to use money from her comrades for her own ends - exactly like Celia is doing to Haley right now - doesn't bother you?

So yeah, still waiting for that NPC.
I think the fact that Haley is perfectly happy to defraud her comrades out of their fair share of loot is proof enough she's happy to take gold from whereever she can get it.

Then, it would seem, there is no purpose in continued debate.
Agreed.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 06:36 PM

Nice dodge there. The fact that Haley is happy to use money from her comrades for her own ends - exactly like Celia is doing to Haley right now - doesn't bother you?

Where are the smileys? Getting less pleasant? :smallamused: No, because her father is not only Good, but he was also trying to steer the Guild in a good direction. Now tell me that leaving Bozzok in charge is a better idea.

I think the fact that Haley is perfectly happy to defraud her comrades out of their fair share of loot is proof enough she's happy to take gold from whereever she can get it.

Show me exactly where she lied to them in #129. "plqin ole rocks, no value whatsoever." "If we each get an equal share AND each of you gets a rock, you'll have gotten more than I have."

Roy's over-suspicion is his own undoing (and proved to be so again when they faced the Oracle.)

Agreed.

*Shrug* I'd stop arguing too in your shoes. Maybe you can bump the "I like Celia" thread instead. :smalltongue:

Erk

2009-01-14, 06:40 PM

Wow. Some people can be incredibly pedantic. (Not necessarily anyone in this thread, it's just a nonsequitor observation, y'know?)

Optimystik: before you whinge more about your opinions of how Celia should know when to ask questions and what to expect in this place, which is not only a foreign land but a foreign dimension populated by foreign species, go live in another country for a while. See what kind of weird mistakes you make in day to day life, and how often you remember to ask obvious questions of everyone around you.

I lived abroad for two years, in Japan. I am not a stupid person (professional scientist now), but even at the end of my stay I frequently made judgment mistakes very similar to Celia's oversights throughout the comic. It's harder than you seem to think to anticipate what aspects of a foreign place are going to be different from what you expected. Would you expect to have to ask someone, "is there going to be any seaweed in my tea?" Even after having seaweed pizzas and salads and other weirdness, after a year and a half I was unprepared for the idea of konbu tea. I could regale you with similar anecdotes for hours.

Aside from her judgment lapses, which are perfectly justified and don't even show that much naivete on Celia's part. A bit certainly, but not that much.

And her deal seems to be leading to getting Roy back, at the expense of money that Haley swindled. They were going to have to pay to get Roy back anyway. Haley just finished complaining that there may not even be a cleric in the world who can do it without the body, even notwithstanding the 5000 gp. Therefore, no matter how much you want to try to swing it as a "stupid" deal on her part, it certainly looks like it was the correct course of action.

Now, if Haley had bothered to tell Celia why Greysky was bad (a simple "you can't trust anyone there not to swindle you out of Roy's corpse to make some kind of twisted personal profit" would have been both accurate and sufficient), or why the money was important to her, Celia's decisions would have been a lot more selfish. However, from her point of view (and most of the readers I speak to regularly), all she has done is forced Haley to divulge her ill-gotten gains for the good of all, in a guaranteed ploy to get Roy back.

OMG, what a *****!

technoextreme

2009-01-14, 07:13 PM

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 07:23 PM

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 07:30 PM

Where are the smileys? Getting less pleasant? :smallamused:
Heh. :smallamused: This is tangential to the thread, but If I could get away with it I'd use no smilies at all. Unfortunately I've found that hyperbole and dry sarcasm don't go over very well in text based media. So sometimes I overcompensate with loads of smilies. :smallwink:

*Shrug* I'd stop arguing too in your shoes. Maybe you can bump the "I like Celia" thread instead. :smalltongue:
Meh. :smalltongue: It's because this isn't much of a debate any more. All the arguments now are based on subjective subtext within the comic: "Haley is a kleptomanic" versus "Haley would only steal from those who are evil and undeserving". I'd say the early comics lean far more towards the former than the latter due to Haley's behaviour (such as her love of loot and especially her actions towards her comrades in the loot divving scene). But there's enough leeway in how Haley's character is portrayed to take her as a pure Robin Hood type. I think she's somewhere inbetween: she certainly loves loot and stealing but she is Chaotic Good and will spend to save the needy.

I'm just arguing that the same subjective subtext is what causes me to see Celia as better than a "dumb boop". If you put yourself in Celia's wings, making a deal with the guild to stop the violence and get Roy back at the cost of stolen loot is a tactical one. Yes, she's not perfect: she's be an annoying Mary Sue if she was! Celia can be judgemental and sanctimonious. She sometimes stomps her principles over her comrades. She's also naive and out of her depth. This means she's sometimes irritating to her comrades and, sometimes at specific comic updates, annoying to the reader. But in general, she's comes across as a good person who does the best she can.

There are some points where I think she's been a bit too naive for her own good, especially the bit when she went into Greysky. I can argue that she really wanted to rez Roy and Haley didn't tell Celia the full story, and that as a sylph she could read what to us would be obvious warning signs that Greysky is a nasty place. In truth, I think she had to ignore the obvious danger because the plot demanded they go to Greysky, and Haley obviously wasn't going to go there herself without a very good reason. Celia had to pick up the Idiot Ball for a bit to get the plot moving.

But the deal with the Thieves Guild? It makes sense to me. It's a clash of opinions - Haley is a rogue, and considers her stolen loot to be hers. Celia is a law student, so she doesn't. We could keep arguing about whether a revitalised Thieves Guild is good or bad for Greysky, but we're both back to subjective subtext here: arguing whether Bozzok is better or worse than all the other shadowy unknown nasties that lurk in Greysky.

In short, cut Celia some slack, 'kay? She's doing the best she can. :smallsmile:

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 07:43 PM

In short, cut Celia some slack, 'kay? She's doing the best she can. :smallsmile:

You're absolutely right; it's all subjective until we see where the Giant is going with this. But no matter what else happens, my greatest hope is that Celia gets the rudest awakening of her little fey life.

I don't want her dead or have her sanity shattered like some of the more extreme haters have suggested. I just want her to see that making assumptions about other people's lives (to say nothing of lying to your friends, even by omission) has consequences. Haley learned that lesson already; now it's Celia's turn.

Having her get off scot free with a merit badge for good effort would be extremely disappointing, especially given all the things this misadventure has cost Haley.

Trazoi

2009-01-14, 07:55 PM

You're absolutely right; it's all subjective until we see where the Giant is going with this. But no matter what else happens, my greatest hope is that Celia gets the rudest awakening of her little fey life.

I don't want her dead or have her sanity shattered like some of the more extreme haters have suggested. I just want her to see that making assumptions about other people's lives (to say nothing of lying to your friends, even by omission) has consequences. Haley learned that lesson already; now it's Celia's turn.
I think part of the point of Celia is that Haley hasn't quite learned that lesson. Haley's got multiple secrets: Haley's been open about loving Elan, but she hasn't told anyone about her father yet. If Celia knew about that, my opinion of her being so cavalier with Haley's stolen loot would have been worse (Celia might still have gone through with the deal, but she should have been a lot more apologetic about it. Unless she really is that self-centered. :smallbiggrin:) This plot arc might be Haley's lesson "trust your friends", rather than a wake up call for Celia.

I'm not sure if Celia is quite important enough yet to warrant a character development moment. She's in a weird position somewhere between a supporting character and a full blown protagonist. I don't mind her not learning a big life lesson, but if she sticks around as a main party member for much longer she'll have notched up enough comic screen time to require one.

Renegade Paladin

2009-01-14, 07:56 PM

A few days? I thought they were about 4 weeks away.

EDIT: As I recall, War and XPs map shows Sunken Valley and Greysky as fairly near Azure city, but cliffport is "a thousand miles to the north"
Irrelevant. Greysky City was not their only chance; treating it as thought it was is foolish.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 08:00 PM

I think part of the point of Celia is that Haley hasn't quite learned that lesson. Haley's got multiple secrets: Haley's been open about loving Elan, but she hasn't told anyone about her father yet. If Celia knew about that, my opinion of her being so cavalier with Haley's stolen loot would have been worse (Celia might still have gone through with the deal, but she should have been a lot more apologetic about it. Unless she really is that self-centered. :smallbiggrin:) This plot arc might be Haley's lesson "trust your friends", rather than a wake up call for Celia.

That was my point; this plot arc IS Haley's wake-up call. Now she's forced to either go along with the plan and keep her secrets, or tell Celia why she's been thieving all this time.

I'm not sure if Celia is quite important enough yet to warrant a character development moment. She's in a weird position somewhere between a supporting character and a full blown protagonist. I don't mind her not learning a big life lesson, but if she sticks around as a main party member for much longer she'll have notched up enough comic screen time to require one.

If Miko could be shown the error of her ways, so can Celia. Granted, Miko only got the message after she was dismembered, and we don't know if she actually took the lesson to heart, but the principle is the same.

JonahFalcon

2009-01-14, 08:00 PM

Stop assuming Belkar is on Haley's side. Please.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 08:07 PM

Stop assuming Belkar is on Haley's side. Please.

Uh... wrong thread?

Erk

2009-01-14, 08:32 PM

Erk: When you were in Japan, did your Japanese tour guide or friends tell you not to do something? Did you then immediately go out and do that very thing? Everyone keeps telling me how easy it is to make mistakes when you're in a new place; I fully acknowledge that. But it's just plain foolish, utterly foolish, to ignore the advice of a native. This is true for cities, countries, planes, dimensions, you name it.Though the comparison is not equal to the desperation I imagine one would feel from carrying around the corpse of one's significant other and seeing a chance to get him/her revived, I was advised not to take the overnight bus to Narita Airport a couple times, by both Japanese people and other English teachers. I still took it (twice), because despite not seeming like the most advantageous option to my friends, it was the most efficient way for me to get to be with my own significant other. In my case, however, my friends actually took the time to tell me why they felt the overnighter was a bad idea, so I was actually going in with a pretty clear picture of the issue. Had they been so rude as to reject my questions on the matter I can't honestly predict my response.

Again, I am not coming down on Celia because she made a mistake. I am coming down on her because of how preventable that mistake was. I am also coming down on her because of her attitude post-mistake. She is not repentant; she is snarky, indignant, convinced she did the right thing, and shows no signs whatsoever of having learned her lesson. If you expect me to commiserate, and give a character like that a pat on the head, don't hold your breath.
Almost everything you link to as being snarky, I read as being frustrated with the situation she's stuck in, and taking it out on Haley. Further, she is not at all convinced she did the right thing selling Roy to Grubwiggler, she openly and verbosely apologized for it (yes, she was frowning rather than apologizing later on. Again, frustrated, not snarky, as I read it. And that is what her dialogue supports, at least to me).

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 08:40 PM

Though the comparison is not equal to the desperation I imagine one would feel from carrying around the corpse of one's significant other and seeing a chance to get him/her revived, I was advised not to take the overnight bus to Narita Airport a couple times, by both Japanese people and other English teachers. I still took it (twice), because despite not seeming like the most advantageous option to my friends, it was the most efficient way for me to get to be with my own significant other. In my case, however, my friends actually took the time to tell me why they felt the overnighter was a bad idea, so I was actually going in with a pretty clear picture of the issue. Had they been so rude as to reject my questions on the matter I can't honestly predict my response.

Were you robbed? Did someone try to kill you? Those are the things that happened to Celia. If you ignored their advice without incident, then obviously there's no issue; however, if misfortune befell you after ignoring them, you have nobody to blame but yourself. That is my point.

Almost everything you link to as being snarky, I read as being frustrated with the situation she's stuck in, and taking it out on Haley. Further, she is not at all convinced she did the right thing selling Roy to Grubwiggler, she openly and verbosely apologized for it (yes, she was frowning rather than apologizing later on. Again, frustrated, not snarky, as I read it. And that is what her dialogue supports, at least to me).

And does Haley deserve to be the target of that attitude? She was far less responsible for Roy's death than Celia was, if you want to start apportioning blame. The Oracle himself points this out.

Again, I'm not angry at her for feeling stressed or frustrated. But letting that stress and frustration cloud her judgment is another matter entirely. Because of Celia, Haley was impaled, she lost her hair, she lost Roy, and just now she lost what little money she had managed to recover - which action she was harangued for by the same woman who got her into that whole mess. I'd be more than a little angry at Celia myself in her shoes.

whitelaughter

2009-01-14, 08:46 PM

Oh, so Dr. Frankenstein would make better use of said money?
Irrelevant. I doubt you'd be pleased if someone went through your home and grabbed everything on the grounds that they could make better use of it!
And Celia's actions have a decent chance of stopping the Bad Doctor permanently - Haley's thieving didn't even discourage him.

Haley has tricked her own party out of treasure - remember the stunt with the rocks? She's in no position to complain about having treasure taken from her.

If Haley doesn't like it, she shouldn't have accepted Celia as her lawyer.

Much as I love Haley, I also love the way she's been hoist on her own petard on this one.

The Extinguisher

2009-01-14, 08:50 PM

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 08:54 PM

Irrelevant. I doubt you'd be pleased if someone went through your home and grabbed everything on the grounds that they could make better use of it!

Nice try. I also don't try and murder people when they don't give me money. Grub is a villain, villains deserve misfortune.

And Celia's actions have a decent chance of stopping the Bad Doctor permanently - Haley's thieving didn't even discourage him.

Firstly it wasn't meant to - even if she could shut him down, there'd be nothing left to steal - and secondly, how do you figure that? Is bone-golem Roy a Load-Bearing Boss? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadBearingBoss)

Haley has tricked her own party out of treasure - remember the stunt with the rocks? She's in no position to complain about having treasure taken from her.

Oh, how horrible of her. Never mind that every gold piece of that treasure was used to supply the resistance in Azure City. Never mind also that her party had no better use for it. I haven't seen them complaining about being 1 gp short for anything, have you?

If Haley doesn't like it, she shouldn't have accepted Celia as her lawyer.

Celia isn't a lawyer, and even if she was, she represented the Order in one trial. You don't give your power of attorney to every lawyer that defends you.

Much as I love Haley, I also love the way she's been hoist on her own petard on this one.

So impaling her and making her lose her hair wasn't enough for you, I take it? Remind me not to travel with you.

Kranden

2009-01-14, 08:58 PM

:smallamused:
The way Celia is acting is rather selfish, she does not analyze any of the consequences of her actions. She is the embodiment of Stupid good, while well meaning they end up causing more damage to those around them. If not for her Haley would most likely already have Roy's body raised in another town.
Celia thinks she is always doing the right thing because SHE is right, not because its the best option in the situation.

The Extinguisher

2009-01-14, 09:02 PM

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 09:04 PM

What? If not for Celia, Haley would still be in Azure City, and could very well be dead right about now.

Which is the one good thing she has done. And Haley WOULD be dead if it weren't for Belkar, NOT Celia.

Assassin89

2009-01-14, 09:19 PM

There are people who are dumber than Celia. One of them is Crystal.

Dienekes

2009-01-14, 09:45 PM

Huh, just peaked in to look at this part of the forum and was surprised by the Celia hate.

She never seemed unintelligent to me, fairly smart and original in a story about people who by definition get out of trouble by killing everything.

I also thought it was hilarious when she traded away Haley's gold, dad or no dad that was great.

well that's my two cents. Go back to bickering

David Argall

2009-01-14, 10:06 PM

As I said before, "It's a dangerous place where people get killed" and "there are no clerics there that will help Roy" should be satisfactory to anyone but an idiot.

Well, we know now that Haley was wrong about the second, assuming Celia had the coin of course, and its unlikely she would assume she didn't have to pay.
And since we see her completely ignorant of all those crimes around her, it seems consistent that she discounts the warning of danger.

Celia behaves rashly of course, but Haley's failure to give additional information means she is not free of blame.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 10:19 PM

Well, we know now that Haley was wrong about the second, assuming Celia had the coin of course, and its unlikely she would assume she didn't have to pay.

Which she didn't. Neither of them did. And if Haley had walked up to the CoL, the Guild would have learned she was back in town anyway, leading them to a very similar confrontation.

And since we see her completely ignorant of all those crimes around her, it seems consistent that she discounts the warning of danger.

My point exactly, she's an idiot.

Celia behaves rashly of course, but Haley's failure to give additional information means she is not free of blame.

She gave all the information necessary to keep a reasonable person out. If you had just landed in Thailand and your tour guide said "Hey, don't go to X part of town" would you need to know his whole history there to find it a bad idea?

Erk

2009-01-14, 10:41 PM

She gave all the information necessary to keep a reasonable person out. If you had just landed in Thailand and your tour guide said "Hey, don't go to X part of town" would you need to know his whole history there to find it a bad idea?Depends. Do I have a wagon with my dead girlfriend in it, and that part of town may have a way to bring her back, while the next nearest chance to find one is thousands of kilometers away?

Anyway, I'm with that guy above. I hadn't even realized how hated Celia was on the forums; she seemed pretty reasonable to me, for a law student trapped in a situation like that. I'll continue feeling for her issues, you can go back to bickering.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 10:45 PM

Depends. Do I have a wagon with my dead girlfriend in it, and that part of town may have a way to bring her back, while the next nearest chance to find one is thousands of kilometers away?

The fact that her dead friend is depending on her is precisely the reason WHY she needs to keep her head and not go rushing off into danger. Roy tells her as much in #610, though she can't hear him of course. If Belkar hadn't had his epiphany, they'd all be dead and Celia would never have seen Roy again, ever.

Anyway, I'm with that guy above. I hadn't even realized how hated Celia was on the forums; she seemed pretty reasonable to me, for a law student trapped in a situation like that. I'll continue feeling for her issues, you can go back to bickering.

If she'd listened to Haley and things went to hell anyway, I'd think she was reasonable. But actively causing trouble without thinking first, is not reason. Anyway, welcome to the forums.

Erk

2009-01-14, 11:09 PM

Anyway, welcome to the forums.

lol... thanks, but I've been here a few months longer than you. I just typically avoid the OotS section for precisely this reason.

Optimystik

2009-01-14, 11:14 PM

lol... thanks, but I've been here a few months longer than you. I just typically avoid the OotS section for precisely this reason.

I meant this section, which you yourself said you aren't familiar with. I myself registered months before I began posting in earnest.

Brauley

2009-01-15, 12:46 AM

Can everyone just stop hating on Celia? She seriously isn't that bad

EvilJames

2009-01-15, 02:51 AM

You would have a point if they weren't a few days out from Cliffport. Since they were, you don't. It's not a matter of Celia taking the only slim chance available; it's a matter of Celia taking an extraordinary risk to do something they were going to get done safely anyway if she'd just waited a little.

They weren't a few days from Cliffport. The exact distance was never stated but most of the ways they referred Cliffport they implied it was a reasonable distance away.

ie: "it's a long way to Cliffport" or "If that fails we can go all the way to Cliffport"

LeslieR

2009-01-15, 02:58 AM

Is Celia insanely stupid, or just colossally ignorant? ...does it really matter?

Fact is she has a horrible track-record when relying on her own judgement.

Exhibit A) Roy's one chance at avoiding splattery death was his ability to summon his girlfriend who could fly, thwarted by said girlfriend making the summoning conditional on the 'simply' employment of just a little bit of lightening.

Exhibit B) Ignoring reasonable warnings about Greysky on the off-chance she might see Roy resurrected slightly sooner in a world where Death is (sorta) Cheap, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathIsCheap) losing Roy's remains in the process.

Exhibit C) Refusing to cave on her principles of not-killing (again, in a world where Death is (sorta) Cheap. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathIsCheap)) Choosing instead to barter with known criminals and attempt to have many of said criminals' untimely deaths reversed (Death is yadda yadda...) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathIsCheap) using funds she had no right to barter with (whether Haley had any right to those funds is another matter entirely, but even if she didn't that doesn't give Celia Carte Blanc) when Haley and Belkar by that time had the situation well in hand.

About the only actually useful thing she's done for Haley and the abbreviated OotS is to inform Haley of the presance of an epic-level anti-scrying ward and that waiting in Azure City was thus counter-productive, and she only managed to do that by Accident.

Plus there is one rather glaring problem which seems to be getting overlooked here. Aside from the big bag 'o loot she procured recently from Grubby's castle, have we seen Haley tooling around with massive amounts of treasure recently? The deal is 50% of ALL of the stuff Haley has stolen Since She Left The Guild.... Which wasn't exactly yesterday. By this time Haley has probably spent most of (as in, greater than 50%) of all those ill-gotten gains on various sundries, luxuries, and paying-down her father's ransom.

Given the prevailing pattern Celia probably assumes humans simply horde treasure like dragons and Haley just needs to pop over to her 'horde' and all will be made right again, except for making Haley a bit grouchy for awhile.

Coldwin

2009-01-15, 08:53 AM

Ok I've read the whole thread. (from a bunch of the posts seems like not everyone has).

The main arguments in Celia's defense seem to be these.

#1] She meant well.

#2] Haley is a thief so the money wasn't hers anyway.

Intentions are nice things, but they count very little in the face of actions. "Good intentions, hell, you draw the map".

The fact that Haley stole it gives Celia no right to steal it from her. The only 'right' Celia has would be to return it to the previous LEGAL owner. I'm pretty sure that's not Hank.

Ok I've said my piece. Now I'll step back and watch the apologists whine about it. Before you do though I had only the best of intentions writing this post.

/saracsm

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 11:52 AM

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 12:41 PM

Given the number of "murderers forfeit right to life" comments, why not "thieves forfeit right to property"?

Belkar gets between Bozzok and Crystal. And gets drawn off a bit by crystal, And Bozzok's sword swipes down into the ground. But does not cleave through Haley. Because at that very moment Celia swoops away with her.

I suppose Belkar could have stopped him, but the way the strip was set up, that was a "saves her life" moment to me.

on the Rezzing (would-be) murderers, there is "Love your enemies, return good for evil, do good to those that hate you" Though I prefer "and that may lead them to redemption" theme of BoED over "and this will heap coals of fire on them"

You certainly aren't required to rez them to be Good, but it does follow the theme of kindness to evil. Remember D&D Lower Planes tend to be on the punitive side, not "evil paradises" in Manual of the Planes and Fiendish Codicies (and possibly DMG)

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 01:12 PM

Given the number of "murderers forfeit right to life" comments, why not "thieves forfeit right to property"?

Because (and I've said this repeatedly) it depends on who the original theft or killing was done to. We don't give executioners or adventurers the death penalty for killing evil people. Neither should it be fair to steal from thieves who steal from bad people.

And even if thieves should forfeit property rights, what gives another thief (Hank) the right to claim it? Assuming your logic is flawless, it should go back to the original owners and nobody else.

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 01:20 PM

Actually, death penalties have been prescribed for "killing evil people" Sometimes commuted though.

(warning, real world example)

Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswald would be an example. Commuted a short period after sentence was passed.

A film example of money not going back to original owner: Nuns on the Run- two petty crooks steal from a criminal gang, hide in a nunnery. They point out, when caught by the nuns "The good guys get the money instead of the bad guys- like Robin Hood- rob the rich- help the poor. Thats us. We're poor." The nuns are not very impressed with this.

They don't get to keep it all- they drop one case in the escape. The nuns choose to keep it for charity, despite a "but don't you feel guilty" comment from a priest, using a similar quote.

MickJay

2009-01-15, 01:59 PM

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 02:04 PM

Kish

2009-01-15, 02:43 PM

"it was necessary to make things realistic" It could be that Hank wouldn't budge on the retroactive money-owing bit, so Celia turned her attention to the "who gets ressurrected" bit.

Haley doen't object to thieves being raised, she does object to retroactive money-owing.

Maybe Celia should have said "they were going to insist on the money anyway, so I insisted they spend it on the right things"

However the "Hank insisted on the 50% and wouldn't budge" idea is only my hypothesis.
There is no indication of a link between Haley retroactively owing the Guild the money, and the Guild resurrecting their dead members, in the contract as Celia describes it, anyway. Though both Haley and a lot of people on this board seem to be equating them.

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 02:47 PM

and Celia, sort of, in her response to Haley's yell: "You mean the money that..."

Though the lack of direct connection is present in the previous strip, I'm thinking people are concluding that because Celia asked for the rezzing, she had to give something up in return, and that if she hadn't, Hank might have been content with less.

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 05:17 PM

"it was necessary to make things realistic" It could be that Hank wouldn't budge on the retroactive money-owing bit, so Celia turned her attention to the "who gets ressurrected" bit.

Haley doen't object to thieves being raised, she does object to retroactive money-owing.

Maybe Celia should have said "they were going to insist on the money anyway, so I insisted they spend it on the right things"

However the "Hank insisted on the 50% and wouldn't budge" idea is only my hypothesis.

Haley didn't object to anything because she didn't know all the details. We have yet to see if she will adhere to the contract now that she knows what it entails in full.

As for Hank "not budging," he wasn't really in a position to be setting rigid terms - which any GOOD negotiator (i.e. not Celia) could have seen.

Lord Seth

2009-01-15, 05:56 PM

They had the theives guild beaten and they held all the cards with both of its leaders incapacitated and a bunch of scattered low level peons as the only remaning members of the guild.Celia didn't know that for sure.

Celia sold her out for a raw deal promising money Haley needed to save her father which is the reason whe left the guild in the first place.Celia didn't know that.

I mean, you can't say a character is stupid for acting without taking into consideration things they couldn't have known.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have little love for Celia lately; she's done some mind-bogglingly stupid things. But in this case, I can't blame her for not knowing things she couldn't have known. Blame her for all the other stupid things she did, but not this one.

EDIT: Though now that I think about it, it's pretty annoying of Celia to make Haley give up half her money to get themselves out of a situation that was Celia's fault to begin with.

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 06:07 PM

I mean, you can't say a character is stupid for acting without taking into consideration things they couldn't have known.

That's absolutely true, but what stopped her from opening the door to SEE what the situation was?

OOTS_Supporter

2009-01-15, 06:13 PM

That's absolutely true, but what stopped her from opening the door to SEE what the situation was?

The fact that, Haley won't tell anyone about the situation?

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 06:14 PM

The fact that, Haley won't tell anyone about the situation?

What are you referring to? I'm talking about Celia being taken into Pete's study by Hank and his flunkies, with Belkar and Haley battling Bozzok within earshot.

LeslieR

2009-01-15, 07:13 PM

Another wrinkle...

The 'deal' hinges on the cover-story that Haley was on secret assignment to 'kill the leader of an adventuring party'.. i.e... Roy. This being so it'd be rather counter-productive of them to raise said target of assasination later. Whether that 'inconvinient fact' means the Guild will have some vested interest in seeing that Roy isn't raised At All, however...

LeslieR

2009-01-15, 07:24 PM

Celia was definitely not acting with pure intentions when she put Haley in debt, she did it on purpose as revenge for the killing of thieves. The link between raising thieves and using Haley's money for that purpose isn't as obvious, we don't know if Guild would not have raised its members from its own funds (as part of the "services"). Celia just made sure that Haley would "pay" for the killing she did against Celia's will.

Indeed. For Celia it seems this conflict is all about 'dueling moralities', Haley's actions and world-view are offensive to Celia, so Celia is just gonna offend her right back. Nevermind that Haley's chaotic alignment dosn't mean she has principles in-opposition to Celia's lawful alignment, it means she simply dosn't Have those principles of which Celia's were offended.

Haley isn't put-out because, "Oh no, you've foiled my wicked thief-ish plans to horde ill-gotten gains and slay all who oppose me, un-killing people I have killed and re-distributing my own illegally obtained wealth in order to do so. Huff-Huff! I am Offended!"

..More like, "You Idiot! You made a pact to bring back to full strength an organization that will slit my throat the instant I am seen as inconvinient, and promised them funds I don't currently have and risked my life to originally procure in the process? Thanks a lot Celia, if you need me I'll be skipping town.. again."

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 07:26 PM

..More like, "You Idiot! You made a pact to bring back to full strength an organization that will slit my throat the instant I am seen as inconvinient, and promised them funds I don't currently have and risked my life to originally procure in the process? Thanks a lot Celia, if you need me I'll be skipping town.. again."

Shh! The apologists might come back into the thread!

OOTS_Supporter

2009-01-15, 07:29 PM

Apologists?

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 07:46 PM

Apologists?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apologist

"n. A person who argues in defense or justification of something"

Since you're here, I still don't know what you were talking about when you said Haley wasn't telling anyone about "the situation," or why that would stop Celia from opening a door to see what was going on.

Ladorak

2009-01-15, 09:45 PM

That's absolutely true, but what stopped her from opening the door to SEE what the situation was?

If there was a firefight next door would you go a'knocking to see who's winning? Or might you be more enclined to call the police regardless, not knowing if your neighbour is winning or not?

... And in a way, that just goes to show how out of her league Celia is... She's a lawyer from another dimension trapped in a physical reality she doesn't really understand, with people she doesn't understand, in a culture she doesn't understand and the closest thing she (A lawyer from another dimension) can do to calling the authorities is to cut a deal with a criminal organisation.

Now I don't like the girl. But she's inexperienced, not stupid. How many lawyers with 100% win records who are stupid have you met?

Yes she should asked about her surroundings but on the other hand she also should have been filled in on all sorts of things.

If a man from a country that allows drinking goes to another country that does not, is it fair to punish him the first time he takes a drink? What if the punishment is death? Or should we cut him some slack, explain to him the laws of this new country and then let him go on his way?

As a wise man once said... Judge as you would like to be judged. How would you like to be that foreigner?

Assassin89

2009-01-15, 09:49 PM

No apologist here, just someone who is annoyed by all of these anti-Celia threads, especially since they focus primarily on one topic. If you look at Celia's behavior and change the behavior to that of someone else, that person would logically be an annoyance.

*stabs thread*

Optimystik

2009-01-15, 10:19 PM

If there was a firefight next door would you go a'knocking to see who's winning? Or might you be more enclined to call the police regardless, not knowing if your neighbour is winning or not?

"Call the police?" That's not remotely what Celia did. Unless the police where you live usually try to kill innocent people, and only negotiate with them when losing.

And while I'd be less inclined to peek in on two people fighting to the death, I can't fly, cast spells or shoot lightning either.

... And in a way, that just goes to show how out of her league Celia is... She's a lawyer from another dimension trapped in a physical reality she doesn't really understand, with people she doesn't understand, in a culture she doesn't understand and the closest thing she (A lawyer from another dimension) can do to calling the authorities is to cut a deal with a criminal organisation.

Boo-hoo, she's out of her element. That doesn't excuse her for not observing her surroundings. They clearly had the upper hand post-#614, and any good negotiator would have made use of that fact.

Now I don't like the girl. But she's inexperienced, not stupid. How many lawyers with 100% win records who are stupid have you met?

Smart inexperienced people usually follow the instructions of the ones with experience.

Yes she should asked about her surroundings but on the other hand she also should have been filled in on all sorts of things.

How? Should Haley have imparted a lifetime of experience and information to our airheaded friend over the course of a few days? What part of "it's a dangerous place where people get killed" requires further clarification, anyway?

If a man from a country that allows drinking goes to another country that does not, is it fair to punish him the first time he takes a drink? What if the punishment is death? Or should we cut him some slack, explain to him the laws of this new country and then let him go on his way?

The "first drink" as you put it, occurred when they were passing the goblin outpost in #538. That was when Celia realized just how out of her depth she was. Any idiocy she commited after that point was clearly against the advice of the natives i.e. Haley and Belkar.

As a wise man once said... Judge as you would like to be judged. How would you like to be that foreigner?

If I was a foreigner in ANY strange land I would be listening to the people that live there. It's not a hard concept. They tell you not to do something, you don't do it. Simple.

Coldwin

2009-01-15, 11:09 PM

Optimystik - you argue your case consistently and well.

Sadly while you can lead a person to knowledge you can not make them think.

Makes me think of what I call the 'bishie' rule in fandoms.

"The cute character can never ever ever be evil or wrong because so there that's why"

Kroy

2009-01-15, 11:14 PM

How many lawyers with 100% win records who are stupid have you met?

17. And, Celia only had one case, so irrelevantly.
P.S. I'm a Celia fan, sue me.

whitelaughter

2009-01-15, 11:48 PM

You're absolutely right; it's all subjective until we see where the Giant is going with this. But no matter what else happens, my greatest hope is that Celia gets the rudest awakening of her little fey life.

I don't want her dead or have her sanity shattered like some of the more extreme haters have suggested. I just want her to see that making assumptions about other people's lives (to say nothing of lying to your friends, even by omission) has consequences. Haley learned that lesson already; now it's Celia's turn.

Having her get off scot free with a merit badge for good effort would be extremely disappointing, especially given all the things this misadventure has cost Haley.

Yes, I have to agree with all of this(which is why I quoted it all, sorry for the long quote). I've gone from originally being inspired by Celia (her hard work getting them out of Azure city without a massacre) to disgusted (her idiocy in Greysky) to cautious hope with her actions in the last two strips. She desperately needs a wake up call - but I hope she gets that, rather than just being banished home or killed.
Looking forward to seeing what the Giant has planned!

Greep

2009-01-16, 02:07 AM

Yeah I gotta jump the celia hate bandwagon here. Celia is basically pretending to be acting ethical and all, but this isn't even the case: an analogy to what she's doing is ringing up a corrupt businessman's credit card to feed starving people in africa. Moral to some but certainly not ethical and definately not legal.

Now it'd make sense if she just made the contract to save her own hide but didn't mean it, but she then gets in a fight with haley, thus showing she did in fact mean to do just what she did.

Of course, why haley didn't just point her bow at Hank and force the deal off is beyond me...

(also did anybody else read this title as "Celia is (naught) dumb", implying she's smart?)

Optimystik

2009-01-16, 02:36 AM

To those posters supporting me, confirmation that I'm arguing coherently is always very gratifying. Thanks! :smallsmile:

(also did anybody else read this title as "Celia is (naught) dumb", implying she's smart?)

The original title of this thread was "Celia is a dumb ****" which either the OP or the mods probably thought was a bit harsh.

Avilan the Grey

2009-01-16, 05:16 AM

To those posters supporting me, confirmation that I'm arguing coherently is always very gratifying. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Sign me up too.

It is fortunate for Celia that Haley is Good. Otherwise a fist in the mouth (or an arrow to the eye) would be her reward right now.

I agree that Celia is a dumb ***** (or **** or whatever) and I think that is what you mean when you call her stupid.
She is not stupid in the Complete Moron sense, like some other characters. She is what we usually refer to as a dumb ***** because she might have the INT score, but her WIS is very low, she is a Ditz, an Airhead, very Naive, and a Hypocrite on top of it. Basically, she is the kind of person who would free Fur-farm animals in the wild (thinking "they are free!! weee!!") not realizing they they wreck havoc to the local fauna, starves to death and get overrun in large groups by cars.

Celia is full of herself in the most obnoxious way possible. She traps her "friend" in a position by closing a deal over her head (and feeling proud of it) where Haley has to serve an evil organization (despite never agreeing to it, it is all part of the deal Celia trapped her with). Even if you are a Good Aligned person, you can't get away with sealing basically slavery contracts with an evil organization on behalf on someone who was not present, had not agreed to you representing her, and whom you lied to about the nature of the deal. In fact, I am tempted to go as far as claiming that the deal Celia struck, because of the nature of it, is in fact an Evil Deed. Good intentions be damned.
All this applies without knowing about Haleys father. That sweet little bit of backstory is yet to hit her in the face.

MickJay

2009-01-16, 09:06 AM

Of course, why haley didn't just point her bow at Hank and force the deal off is beyond me...

This is what I find most jarring...

Celia did win 100% of her cases. Of course, 100% of the cases she won were rigged :smalltongue:

hamishspence

2009-01-16, 09:16 AM

How much of a trap is the Deal? Its Haley- she's Chaotic- she's likely to break it when it suits her.

Haley makes absolutely no complaint at the idea of being back on the staff of the Thieves guild.

Lord Seth

2009-01-16, 07:21 PM

Trazoi

2009-01-16, 08:27 PM

What it seems some people have forgotten (as I did at first) is that this whole situation was completely Celia's fault. That's what really gets me annoyed at her, for straddling Haley with a bill for a situation that was Celia's fault in the first place because she was too stupid to listen to Haley.
I don't think it's completely Celia's fault. Mostly, maybe, but not completely. Haley shoulders some of the blame for the situation as well.
Haley did warn Celia not to go Greysky, but she didn't tell her the full story. Celia might have been more understanding if Haley had told her about how there were a whole bunch of people who she really didn't want to meet there. As it was, Haley was a bit irritating in not giving a complete reason to Celia specificaly why it was a better idea to trudge who knows how many days to Cliffport than go down the ridge to Greysky.
Grubwiggler was upset about being robbed. He might have been less upset if, when Haley was rescuing Celia, didn't also take the opportunity to completely rob him blind.
It was Haley who trusted Blind Pete in the first place and thought hiding out at his place was a good idea.

Now, I'm not saying Celia is blameless here, but saying she's "completely at fault" is stretching it a little. :smallwink:

Optimystik

2009-01-16, 10:32 PM

Haley did warn Celia not to go Greysky, but she didn't tell her the full story. Celia might have been more understanding if Haley had told her about how there were a whole bunch of people who she really didn't want to meet there. As it was, Haley was a bit irritating in not giving a complete reason to Celia specificaly why it was a better idea to trudge who knows how many days to Cliffport than go down the ridge to Greysky.

How much detail Haley needed to give to be convincing is subjective. However, I will say that someone who is as fond of mentioning how out of her depth as Celia is shouldn't require much convincing of a dangerous situation. Unless, of course, she's thick.

Grubwiggler was upset about being robbed. He might have been less upset if, when Haley was rescuing Celia, didn't also take the opportunity to completely rob him blind.

Not necessarily; he considered "the sylph" as one of his belongings when he went to Bozzok, and evidently she was worth at least 20,000gp to him, so it's reasonable to assume he would have reported Haley even if she'd taken nothing else.

It was Haley who trusted Blind Pete in the first place and thought hiding out at his place was a good idea.

It was a good idea; without Cole on hand to remove Belkar's curse, they'd all be dead. There was nowhere else in the city to hide, and certainly nowhere else that Cole would've been likely to meet them. In addition, his Sending may have been successful for all we know.

Now, I'm not saying Celia is blameless here, but saying she's "completely at fault" is stretching it a little. :smallwink:

A very little. At most.

Trazoi

2009-01-16, 10:58 PM

How much detail Haley needed to give to be convincing is subjective. However, I will say that someone who is as fond of mentioning how out of her depth as Celia is shouldn't require much convincing of a dangerous situation. Unless, of course, she's thick.
I used to think Celia was a silly for going to Greysky, but lookng back at the comic where it happens (#573) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), it doesn't seem so bad. Yes, Haley does say it's dangerous, but there's a big difference between "Greysky is a very rough neighbourhood" type dangerous and "There a huge guild of thieves there that will want me dead" type dangerous.

Not necessarily; he considered "the sylph" as one of his belongings when he went to Bozzok, and evidently she was worth at least 20,000gp to him, so it's reasonable to assume he would have reported Haley even if she'd taken nothing else.
True, but Haley did make things much worse by stealing all that loot. If she was more focused on stealth rather than base greed maybe she wouldn't have been recognised.

It was a good idea; without Cole on hand to remove Belkar's curse, they'd all be dead. There was nowhere else in the city to hide, and certainly nowhere else that Cole would've been likely to meet them. In addition, his Sending may have been successful for all we know.
But if they hadn't been in Blind Pete's basement, they wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.

I know Celia should get blame for being the one who went into Greysky in the first place. But to say it's all Celia's fault that they were trapped in Blind Pete's basement with the full strength of the Thieves Guild at the door? That was entirely Haley's chickens coming home to roost.

Greep

2009-01-16, 11:26 PM

This is what I find most jarring...

Celia did win 100% of her cases. Of course, 100% of the cases she won were rigged :smalltongue:

Hah, that reminds me of the two lawyers. "My record is a perfect 5 for 5" "aww and this makes mine 0 of 127..."

Was this implying the lawyer partners actually together lost 127 of 132 (or whatever the number was) but all the losses were blamed on the whimsical one? Didin't catch it the first time around :D

Optimystik

2009-01-16, 11:55 PM

I know Celia should get blame for being the one who went into Greysky in the first place. But to say it's all Celia's fault that they were trapped in Blind Pete's basement with the full strength of the Thieves Guild at the door? That was entirely Haley's chickens coming home to roost.

You're right, it's not all Celia's fault. Well, the die has been cast so hopefully Roy will swing a rez out of this mess at least.

Was this implying the lawyer partners actually together lost 127 of 132 (or whatever the number was) but all the losses were blamed on the whimsical one? Didin't catch it the first time around :D

Yes, that's exactly what it meant. :smallsmile:

Red XIV

2009-01-17, 02:31 AM

All this applies without knowing about Haleys father. That sweet little bit of backstory is yet to hit her in the face.
Haley, quite frankly, would have to be an absolute moron to think that Lord Tyrinar will really free her father after being given the cash. Tyrinar certainly didn't promise to do so, just to consider it, and being evil his probable response would be "Okay, I've considered it. No."

Adderfield

2009-01-17, 03:52 AM

"Durkon is base. Some of us may get tagged along the way, but its okay as long as one of us reaches base. We just need to figure out the path to get there, even if its the last thing we expect."

from Strip 610, which most of us probably only remember for setting up Belkar to go on the rampage again. I think it's a good idea to go back and look at Celia in this strip to get an idea for what she's trying to do and what her goal is.

She's trying to get back to base (Durkon) with Roy, and anyone else who might get tagged [killed] in the meantime (i.e. Haley and or Belkar) with the added complication that she herself cannot get tagged [killed] because she can't get rezzed.

"The last thing we expect" is in my opinion a hint/foreshadow from Rich that the path back to base is going to be some outside the box thinking.

Working WITH the Theives' Guild -- not to mention Haley legally rejoining it -- is about as fat outside the box as one can get from the perspective of strip 610. But it's going to get Roy's body back. It's going to keep Haley, Belkar, and Celia from getting tagged -- or at the very least, it's going to buy them all time (depending on when Hank tries to collect on Haley's now-lost past earnings) to get out of "tag" range. It's certainly the last thing Roy's ghost expected in strip 617.

[I'm going to go FURTHER outside the box and reference #137 of Erfworld, because Lord Hamster's speech has helped me understand what Celia's doing a lot more.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html

I recommend reading the second half of this strip closely. Paying particular attention to the 9th and 10th panel.

Just because Haley doesn't understand it, or like it, doesn't mean it's stupid. Moreover, just because we the readers don't like Celia's method [because we have better information by virtue of being omniscient readers, because we've had 600 strips to grow sympathetic to Haley the character and think this is bad for her, because this isn't how we would want to do it if we were playing this campaign/DMing this campaign/writing this story], doesn't mean she is stupid.

And in fact, rereading strip 620 and 621, Haley seemed quite happy with what Celia had negotiated, and in fact recognized and respected the intelligence of it. Haley only balked at it once she was made aware of all the money coming out of her personal pocket (or bag of holding as the case may be) to make it all happen. At which point she became very angry.

Now, we know why Haley is angry; she's hoarding treasure to buy her father's freedom, and Celia has unwittingly delivered a huge setback to this fund. But she's never told Celia this, so Celia doesn't know this. Celia has no reason to believe Haley's attachment to that wealth is anything more than stereotypical Rogue Greed. So from Celia's point of view, Haley is more dedicated to that treasure than she is to Roy, and than she is to the good of the Order. Because she's greedy. Which is why Celia is angry at her; she sees Haley as willing to throw away Roy's body, Belkar's life, Celia's life, and her own life, for money. Or in other words, she sees Haley as being [] Dumb. Or at the very least, unreasonable.

But maybe [] Dumb does describe Haley as of late. Trusting Old Blind Pete? Wrong move (he sold them out). Not having the cleric un-Mark Belkar? Wrong move (he had to eventually anyway to save himself, and this botched the sending to Durkon that Haley told him to make). Engaging Bozzok in a dialogue? Wrong move (it distracted her long enough for Crystal to flank her, which cost her her hair and almost her life). Celia has seen first hand 1 and 3, and can infer 2, especially given this curious new leaf that Belkar has turned over. In light of this, maybe it's pretty smart, and not [] dumb for Celia to say "forget what you want, Haley, you've been messing up, now I'm doing things MY way."

Celia may be pissing Haley off. She may be pissing a lot of OotS fans off. But it's because she's doing the best she can to achieve her goals, and it's certainly not because Celia is [] dumb.

Coldwin

2009-01-17, 09:24 AM

In light of this, maybe it's pretty smart, and not [] dumb for Celia to say "forget what you want, Haley, you've been messing up, now I'm doing things MY way."

Its smart of her to blow off Haley when the DIRECT result was Roy's body being stolen, the thieves getting killed and all the rest of it?

What color is the sky in magical funshine land? ;)

Nerdanel

2009-01-17, 09:36 AM

I've noticed that Celia lacks intellectual curiosity. She had the chance to ASK Haley to tell more of Greysky, but she didn't. She just assumed it couldn't be that bad and didn't bother to learn why Haley thought the way she did. It's not Haley's fault for not monologuing uncalled-for on Celia. It's Celia's fault for letting Haley believe she believed him and then sneaking away, without considering for a moment that Haley might know something important she didn't.

Adderfield

2009-01-17, 02:31 PM

Its smart of her to blow off Haley when the DIRECT result was Roy's body being stolen, the thieves getting killed and all the rest of it?

It's every bit as smart as choosing not to remove the Mark of Justice from your team's best melee combatant before entering into a melee combat where losing = death.

It's every bit as smart as falling for the exact same "distract you by talking to you then sneak attack you" trick (that you've been using over and over again to kill a score of guild members and escape from Crystal) as soon as someone (Bozzok) uses it on you.

It's every bit as smart as thinking Old Blind Pete was trustworthy.

So I suppose ultimately, my point and my question is: where are all the "Haley is [] dumb threads?" They should be roughly equal in number to the Celia threads.

Optimystik

2009-01-17, 06:56 PM

Adder, I'm not denying that the Giant foresaw this, and even intended for it to happen. In fact, he probably had Celia and Haley's trip to Greysky outlined for months.

But that doesn't mean Celia didn't make use of an stadium-worth of Idiot Ball to get them there.

*Inhales*

Just because Haley doesn't understand it, or like it, doesn't mean it's stupid. Moreover, just because we the readers don't like Celia's method [because we have better information by virtue of being omniscient readers, because we've had 600 strips to grow sympathetic to Haley the character and think this is bad for her, because this isn't how we would want to do it if we were playing this campaign/DMing this campaign/writing this story], doesn't mean she is stupid.

I don't think anyone is seriously blaming Celia for not being omniscient. But when you aren't omniscient, the ideal thing to do is to not assume you have all the information you need to make any given decision, particularly when that decision is concerning your friend's welfare more than yours. The only good reason she had for not cluing Haley in to the deal before it was formed was a conscious and selfish attempt to keep Haley in the dark, all to sweeten her on it and make her accept without knowing the full terms.

Look at Celia's expression in #621, panel 6, when Hank starts talking about the part of the deal Celia wanted to keep from Haley. It reeks of "oh crap I wanted to keep that under the table until it was too late for her to do anything about it." Is that how friends act?

And in fact, rereading strip 620 and 621, Haley seemed quite happy with what Celia had negotiated, and in fact recognized and respected the intelligence of it. Haley only balked at it once she was made aware of all the money coming out of her personal pocket (or bag of holding as the case may be) to make it all happen. At which point she became very angry.

And rightfully so. How would you like to buy a car, get all the financing terms, drive it out of the lot, and then get a call from the dealership saying that your payments are actually going to be double what you thought they were? You would feel confused, betrayed, and I'm sure more than a little bit pissed off; not just at the additional cost, but the way they chose to tell you. Any reasonable person would.

Now, we know why Haley is angry; she's hoarding treasure to buy her father's freedom, and Celia has unwittingly delivered a huge setback to this fund. But she's never told Celia this, so Celia doesn't know this. Celia has no reason to believe Haley's attachment to that wealth is anything more than stereotypical Rogue Greed.

Stop there; you're wrong. Celia has every reason to believe Haley isn't a typical rogue - she spent every coin of her own money supplying the Azure City resistance. She also knows Haley and the Order are a good adventuring party from representing them. They're not just out for fame and fortune and she knows it, so why assume that about Haley when she's alone?

So from Celia's point of view, Haley is more dedicated to that treasure than she is to Roy, and than she is to the good of the Order. Because she's greedy. Which is why Celia is angry at her; she sees Haley as willing to throw away Roy's body, Belkar's life, Celia's life, and her own life, for money. Or in other words, she sees Haley as being [] Dumb. Or at the very least, unreasonable.

Exactly, and that's what makes her dumb. To think Haley is obsessed with treasure to the point of valuing it above the Order and even the lives of her friends; to think that anyone could have Haley's wisdom and good nature, yet be a mindless thief, requires a special kind of myopia that hasn't been seen in this comic since... you guessed it... Miko.

But maybe [] Dumb does describe Haley as of late. Trusting Old Blind Pete? Wrong move (he sold them out).

What choice did she have? Hide in Grubwiggler's? Abandon Roy's corpse? Throw herself on Bozzok's mercy? Assault a pack of golems with the thieves' guild looking for her? The whole mess being Celia's fault, blaming Haley for picking the only available hiding place is patently unfair.

Not having the cleric un-Mark Belkar? Wrong move (he had to eventually anyway to save himself, and this botched the sending to Durkon that Haley told him to make).

You don't know that the sending was botched. In any case, didn't Celia herself approve of leaving Belkar marked as well?

Engaging Bozzok in a dialogue? Wrong move (it distracted her long enough for Crystal to flank her, which cost her her hair and almost her life).

She was unarmed against two rogues, one of which was the same level as her and the other was at least 4 levels higher. Her words were her only weapon at that point (especially since Bozzok cut off her one path of escape), and their ineffectiveness doesn't make her foolish, only unlucky.

Celia has seen first hand 1 and 3, and can infer 2, especially given this curious new leaf that Belkar has turned over. In light of this, maybe it's pretty smart, and not [] dumb for Celia to say "forget what you want, Haley, you've been messing up, now I'm doing things MY way."

"Celia's way" as you put it, would have been utterly useless had Belkar and Haley not began slaughtering thieves left, right and center. Even now there's no guarantee that Haley couldn't have gotten what she wanted by killing Bozzok and threatening Hank.

Celia may be pissing Haley off. She may be pissing a lot of OotS fans off. But it's because she's doing the best she can to achieve her goals, and it's certainly not because Celia is [] dumb.

She is not doing the best she can. At all. She is being a sneaky, conniving little bitch who apparently cares more about the welfare of a group of people that just tried to kill her than that of her own friends, and I hope to the heights that she gets some kind of comeuppance for it.

Optimystik

2009-01-17, 07:07 PM

Keeping the other post from getting too long.

It's every bit as smart as choosing not to remove the Mark of Justice from your team's best melee combatant before entering into a melee combat where losing = death.

Had she done that before Belkar's epiphany, there's absolutely no guarantee he'd have stuck around to fight for them. Remember that the Mark is the only reason he followed Haley back into Azure City in the first place.

It's every bit as smart as falling for the exact same "distract you by talking to you then sneak attack you" trick (that you've been using over and over again to kill a score of guild members and escape from Crystal) as soon as someone (Bozzok) uses it on you.

And what was she supposed to do? Knock over the half-orc with the bastard sword using her awesome kung-fu skills? Run back towards the psycho with the +4 dagger? How exactly does trying to talk your way out of a hopeless situation make you dumb?

It's every bit as smart as thinking Old Blind Pete was trustworthy.

Brainy Pete even had his childhood friend fooled; what chance did Haley have? Not to mention he was immune to her Sense Motive checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), if you recall. And I'd rate falling for Grubwiggler's lies much higher on the idiot scale than being taken in by a turncoat.

So I suppose ultimately, my point and my question is: where are all the "Haley is [] dumb threads?" They should be roughly equal in number to the Celia threads.

Only if you haven't been reading the comic. Haley is one of the smartest characters in the whole strip, never mind the Order. Or have you forgotten she outwitted both Shojo and Redcloak?