Plot Frustration

[A Quiet Person]

I've been an OoTS fan for some time now, but I am starting to find a few features in the recent stories that are decreasing my enthusiasm for the strip.

The plot seems to be getting padded out with developments that frustrate progress and put the characters, particularly Haley, three steps back for each step forward. I'm reminded of the Zero Punctuation review of Bio-Shock, in which Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw pointed out that you get a very simple task, like getting from point A to point B, but en route something invariably happens, like a ceiling collapses or a chamber floods. Then you have to do several complicated things just to restore the status quo.

OoTS feels like this at the moment. I have no problem with Haley encountering obstructions or complications while trying to send a message to Durkon or resurrect Roy, but her objectives are just unravelling to a degree that I don't find entertaining. First Roy's body is lost to Grubwiggler and re-animated, then she almost gets killed trying to operate under the radar of the Thieves' Guild. Then she has to rejoin the Guild, and now needs to find a way out of providing half of all the money that she's stolen and then lost. She's three steps back, needs to pull out a miracle just to restore the status quo, and - after being animated - Raise Dead might not even be good enough for Roy's body anymore.

And as for Haley's back story: how feasible an arc is it now? Haley's been adventuring for a long time, and getting the loot to rescue her dad does not even seem to be on the horizon. What self-respecting kidnapper is still holding out for a ransom at this point in time? If there's any kind of risk that your hostage could expire from natural causes before you collect the ransom, you're probably onto one serious loser of a kidnapping plan.

This is all entirely personal preference, of course, but I feel like OoTS is starting to get dragged down somewhat by the sheer weight of its plot arcs. As if the forces of plot contrivance have reared up to combat the characters' sense of urgency and desire to get things done, bogging the PCs down in the sub-plots, and making the main plot seem just further and further away.

Sure, this means that there's plenty of material for comics to come. However, I'm looking back at the early comics and the jokes-to-amount-of-exposition-required ratio seems to me to have completely flipped.

Many are likely to disagree, and I hope that my entirely personal misgivings do not prove to be flamebait. However, my level of appreciation for the story is moving from "Mmm, how will they get out of this fine mess?" to "This is starting to feel painfully drawn out..."

[[TS] Shadow]

Wow. Your screenname contradicts your post.

Anyway, there are complications in everything: they're bound to happen. If everything went "according to plan," it wouldn't be interesting. In LotR, Frodo and Sam couldn't walk through the front door into Mordor, so they had to go the back way around, deal with Gollum, the spider, Frodo being kidnapped, and Sam breaking in to save him. That's a lot of setbacks, but in a book form, they go by quicker, because you can always turn the next page. Webcomics aren't like that. You can't turn the next page, so a scene that takes an hour to read in a book takes 4 months to read in a webcomic. It's annoying, but keeps us coming back. Besides, I doubt Haley will pay for her father's freedom anyway. They'll do it the oldfashioned way: brute force.

[Optimystik]

Every arc feels like it lasts too long when it's the ongoing one. When the comic moves on from Greysky you'll see just how short this detour really was. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Well...

(music here) (http://bettylou.zzruss.com/everydaytaylor.mid)
Every day it's getting closer
Going faster than a roller coaster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way

Every day seems a little faster
All his friends they say go get a caster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way

(A)
Every day chances a little stronger
Every day it lasts a little longer
Come what may do you ever long for
True rez for him - like V longed for hours baby

Every day seems a little closer
Going faster than a roller coaster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way
(/A)

A rez like Roy's would surely come my way
[Every day (Every day)] x3

(repeat A)

[The Extinguisher]

Plot getting you down?
Try the new, easy 3 step solution to all your problems.

Step 1: Re-read the battle for Azure City in it's entirety.
Step 2: Look on the forums for all the people who complained it took too long
Step 3: Relax, and let the plot go as it will.

[Jural]

I think the Giant is pushing it a bit right now with a large overall plot on hold (Xykon, end of the world, that thing) and the party split into two (Well, 4 if you count V and Roy) groups.

This can either work well (See Lord of the Rings) or poorly (See Wheel of Time.) I think it's very difficult, and so far well done, but if a few more minor obstacles come up, it might feel frustrating for me as well. I think that's also a huge problem with webcomics- 10 pages might take 2-3 months, but then again, they might barely advance the story. 10 pages ago Old Blind Pete kicked the bucket. Not too much has happened since then!

In book form though, 10 pages has a much different pace, and can be digested in under 5 minutes... and perhaps they don't feel rushed at all then!

[RMS Oceanic]

In book form though, 10 pages has a much different pace, and can be digested in under 5 minutes... and perhaps they don't feel rushed at all then!

This is the magic quote. I first joined about the time of Nale's Masquerade, and when I read through the trial, it felt fine. I'm led to understand many people were complaining about how long that was drawn out.

I think the perception is worse for us now because of there being no fixed update schedule anymore, so when the updates aren't coming regularly, the story really seems to drag. I think that's why some people groan whenever a new obstacle arises, because that potentially puts back the reuniting of the Order by another six weeks or so. That's why a lot of people cheered at the start of the Battle of Brainy Old Eyed Pete's house, because it was action that had the potential to resolve what some people consider the most important subplot: getting Roy raised.

[David Argall]

Now mind you, I think splitting the party was a bad idea in the first place, and will be overjoyed when they get Roy raised and the party back together, but hang tough. He looks likely to be raised in another 40 strips, and if the shattered party strips have not been the epic ones, they have still been pretty good.

[MickJay]

Just a thought, but imagine a DM who would lead such a campaign where he'd lead 2-3 groups of players separately for a long time, while simultaneously doing everything to keep the groups from joining again :smallbiggrin:

[jidasfire]

I generally agree with the original poster. Much as I enjoyed, and continue to care about, the series as a whole, I feel beleaguered by the endless setbacks. There seems to be a school of thought in genre writing nowadays that says the heroes must always suffer and fail. While I like harrowing stories where great odds are overcome, a hopeless story is as empty as a conflict-free story. I just want the heroes to win a little, succeed a little, make the world a little better, instead of watching their reactions to failing again and again and again. Maybe this is the nadir, and things will get better from here. I certainly hope so.

[Optimystik]

I generally agree with the original poster. Much as I enjoyed, and continue to care about, the series as a whole, I feel beleaguered by the endless setbacks. There seems to be a school of thought in genre writing nowadays that says the heroes must always suffer and fail. While I like harrowing stories where great odds are overcome, a hopeless story is as empty as a conflict-free story. I just want the heroes to win a little, succeed a little, make the world a little better, instead of watching their reactions to failing again and again and again. Maybe this is the nadir, and things will get better from here. I certainly hope so.

They are winning a little. I'd be very surprised if Haley and Belkar (and maybe even Celia) don't gain a level from this misadventure. Now, I'm as eager to get back to the main plot as you, but the jokes are still fast and furious (though this latest strip celebrating Belkar's prowess and misogyny was a bit lowbrow for my tastes.)

[A Quiet Person]

Shadow;5636873']Wow. Your screenname contradicts your post.

Why? Does the post read as if I'm shouting? :smallsmile:

More on topic, I've got to say that I've stayed the course through long plot arcs before, but the recent one has felt more arduous. I'm not the kind of guy who needs a comic to stick religiously to a status quo, returning the party of PCs to its original form on a regular basis.

Sometimes, the status quo is the enemy of progress. Take the current story, for example. I think that it could have continued just fine with the deaths of Bozzok and Crystal. Hank could still have used the power vacuum in Greysky to cut a deal. It would have moved Haley's story along. Crystal isn't really essential to the plot; if Haley needs a nemesis, Sabine's still around, and Thog and MiTD both play the idiot antagonist more entertainingly than Crystal. But exit Crystal stage right, to be brought back later. Meh; some might want to see more of her, but I kinda think that she's dead weight.

Perhaps this analogy will sum up the reason for my opinion. Heroes tried to learn from something that Lost, great show that it is, did not do so well. If a story throws up way more unresolved issues relative to those it answers, some fans can get put off and wonder where it is all going. As a result, Heroes is consciously a show that, for all its different strands, tries to answer questions while it poses new ones.

Currently OoTS seems to be more like Lost in the above analogy. As long as some of the older arcs were, they got stuff done. The current strip seems to be throwing up loose ends far more than its solving them.

[hamishspence]

may it was interpreting quiet as "doesn't talk much" rather than "talks at a low volume" :smallbiggrin:

That said, if the present arc ends with Roy resurrected, thats one big problem over.

[Zordrath]

I agree, it feels like there's very little being accomplished right now.

On the one hand, we have the story of Elan and Durkon... sitting on a boat for months to whatever the most minor antagonist so far throws at them? They have absolutely no goal whatsoever, they just sit idly and wait for the ships to arrive somewhere. Granted, there was succes, but there was no progress - Kubota appeared, was overcome, and in the end, nothing has been done about the main problem (Roy's death) or the main enemy (Xykon, obviously). Instead, we get more and more serious character growth in Elan, when a diminishing of jokes and even more focus on Elan is the least thing we need right now.

The only one who tried anything was V, and this was met with no success at all (made even worse by the fact that there was no suspense in it, as we all knew it would fail). Only the last section of strips in this plotline made things exciting, but just when I start to enjoy it, we get a shift back to...

Haley killing things and Celia having them revived shortly thereafter. Again, where's the progress? In this plotline, it is even worse, as the characters try to reach the current goal, but still end up working actively against it by squabbling amongst themselves, killing the Oracle, going to Grubwiggler...

Again, there is one character who saves the plotline from utter boredom, the only character who seems to be still as capable as ever to deliver jokes. However, one interesting character out of three in both plotlines is quite poor in my opinion. I miss the times when it was six out of six.

[jidasfire]

I think part of the problem is, if you'll forgive me being an English major for a moment, a sort of tonal dissonance in the comic. What I mean is, OOTS used to be a humor comic with a story, whereas now it's a story comic with humor. Which is all well and good, but there are parts where it can't seem to make up its mind. On one hand, the FAQ talks about why the characters don't take the smartest path because it's funnier that way, but on the other hand, while the heroes are still portrayed that way, the villains have become more realistically effective.

Note the Battle of Azure City. Xykon committed truly reprehensible atrocities and Redcloak was tactically miles ahead of everyone else, yet the Order still behaved more or less in comedic fashion. If the villains are given the advantages of a serious story while the heroes are not, of course the heroes are going to lose, and lose hard. The upside of how brutally the villains won is that it makes the readers care more about the events that follow, but when the heroes are still stymied by comedic stupidity of old, it's frustrating because the serious stuff goes unresolved and we are forced to wallow in misery while watching them fail.

For all this, I am not saying the heroes shouldn't be funny. For the love of all that's holy, keep the jokes coming. But in the context of the comic as it is now, comedic plot-dragging is counterproductive. I'd rather it continue to make us laugh while letting us cheer for the heroes, as well as move the story along. The Greysky arc was initially doing this, as Belkar and Haley both had some great moments of coolness and courage, but Celia did her darnedest to undo all their works. I believe this is why she's currently so hated. It's not merely because she's a pacifist, but because she is deflating the cathartic moments in which our heroes get to shine, and I see that as generally indicative of the tonal dissonance of which I speak.

[Hatu]

I think part of the problem is, if you'll forgive me being an English major for a moment, a sort of tonal dissonance in the comic. What I mean is, OOTS used to be a humor comic with a story, whereas now it's a story comic with humor. Which is all well and good, but there are parts where it can't seem to make up its mind. On one hand, the FAQ talks about why the characters don't take the smartest path because it's funnier that way, but on the other hand, while the heroes are still portrayed that way, the villains have become more realistically effective.

Note the Battle of Azure City. Xykon committed truly reprehensible atrocities and Redcloak was tactically miles ahead of everyone else, yet the Order still behaved more or less in comedic fashion. If the villains are given the advantages of a serious story while the heroes are not, of course the heroes are going to lose, and lose hard. The upside of how brutally the villains won is that it makes the readers care more about the events that follow, but when the heroes are still stymied by comedic stupidity of old, it's frustrating because the serious stuff goes unresolved and we are forced to wallow in misery while watching them fail.

For all this, I am not saying the heroes shouldn't be funny. For the love of all that's holy, keep the jokes coming. But in the context of the comic as it is now, comedic plot-dragging is counterproductive. I'd rather it continue to make us laugh while letting us cheer for the heroes, as well as move the story along. The Greysky arc was initially doing this, as Belkar and Haley both had some great moments of coolness and courage, but Celia did her darnedest to undo all their works. I believe this is why she's currently so hated. It's not merely because she's a pacifist, but because she is deflating the cathartic moments in which our heroes get to shine, and I see that as generally indicative of the tonal dissonance of which I speak.

I forgive your liberal arts background. That is a very effective way to explain what's been bugging me about Order of the Stick 'recently!'

-H

[Zordrath]

But in the context of the comic as it is now, comedic plot-dragging is counterproductive.
At this point, I'd love some comedic plot-dragging :smalltongue: The problem is that we get non-comedic plot-dragging right now, taking away both virtues of OOTS at the same time. What little development there is stems from two characters who have become severely unfunny - V, who is now portrayed as outright evil (without the comedic value Xykon manages to lend to that alignment), and Celia, who hasn't had a single truly funny line so far.

The main villains, on the other hand, are just right in my opinion, and are the best characters in the strip at the moment, merging awesome jokes with efficiency and great writing. It is only natural that the main villains are portrayed as more effective than the heroes, because they have to be threatening throughout the plot. However, the heroes have recently not only been trounced by increasingly minor villains, but even by their own allies, which is indeed frustrating. I can understand they are not allowed to achieve any sort of triumph against Xykon right now, but why not against a bunch of low-level thieves?

(and the few triumphs they do have, against Kubota or Crystal or Bozzok, are immediately negated by some uptight character screaming about how unethical it was, how they should never do it again, blah blah blah... and without funny undertones, as used to be the case when Roy was criticizing Belkar's behaviour)

[A Quiet Person]

Note the Battle of Azure City. Xykon committed truly reprehensible atrocities and Redcloak was tactically miles ahead of everyone else, yet the Order still behaved more or less in comedic fashion. If the villains are given the advantages of a serious story while the heroes are not, of course the heroes are going to lose, and lose hard.

That's a pretty good analysis. The only exception among the Order during the Battle of Azure City was V, who's upped his/her tactics to try to match the villains' serious efforts and to get things done. However, even this doesn't contradict your theory, because V's drive for efficiency seems to be building up to a potential face-heel turn.

[King of Nowhere]

Besides, I doubt Haley will pay for her father's freedom anyway. They'll do it the oldfashioned way: brute force.
Not if Celia gets to say something on the matter...


This can either work well (See Lord of the Rings) or poorly (See Wheel of Time.)
Blasphemy! No one mock the Wheel of Time and survives!

Back to topic, threads like this are periodic. Generally they spread out once every couple of months. between comics 500-560 there were one of them every couple of weeks. Actually I was surprised it was some months it wasn't brought up, sign that the current arc was kinda succesful.
Even the answers are more or less the same.
This time I see much more "supporters of the actual plot" than in the past, so nothing wrong is happening. It's perfectly normal that a few readers feels the plot is dragging. There are always been, there will always be.
Unless the whole fanbase decides to join that crew, the comic is healty.

[The Extinguisher]

So, I had a nice long post written. Then it got deleted.

Anyways, long story short, I like this arc, as it is developing the Order into a team that can actually function as a team, instead of as a group of adventures being held together by a single leader. I mean, look how fast they broke apart without Roy. They need to be a team.

And you can see that. The three characters who were self-described as "so consistently and staggeringly irresponsible" are becoming less so. Belkar is becoming a team player. Albeit for ulterior motives, you cannot deny that he is going to be a less of an immediate burden on the Order. Haley is going to get whipped into shape, and be the leader the Order needs now, and even later. She's second-in-command and needs to act like it. She's getting better, but still a big mess. And Elan had some development when he let V fly off like that. He's maturing, which is a big deal.

All in all, this is going to prove to be a very interesting arc. And I love it.

[Optimystik]

This can either work well (See Lord of the Rings) or poorly (See Wheel of Time.)

LotR, better party dynamics than WoT?

/headexamine

[David Argall]

I agree, it feels like there's very little being accomplished right now.

So?
We are on a trip, and the fun is from the journey, not from being fast to the finish line. Let the plot meander. We'll still get there in the end.

[[TS] Shadow]

Most of you here are complaining. When will the party get back together? Raise Roy! Kubota's stupid! If these things are bothering you, then why read the strip at all? Why even bother?

Because you love it. You love OotS. You want to see what happens next. The fact that you still check regularly for new strips means that the story hasn't slown down far enough that you just give up. On the contrary: the Giant is supplying us with new twists and plot developments to keep us entertained. That's the sign of a greet writer.

PS: I was joking in my first paragraph. Don't kill me.

[Fish]

Now mind you, I think splitting the party was a bad idea in the first place, and will be overjoyed when they get Roy raised and the party back together, but hang tough. He looks likely to be raised in another 40 strips...
So... another six months?

[Ted_Stryker]

Bah, this is nothing compared to how things dragged in the low 300s, IMNSHO.

[JaxGaret]

LotR, better party dynamics than WoT?

/headexamine

Jural wasn't speaking of party dynamics, they were speaking of how well the writer incorporated subplots and different arcs into the story.

I remember there was one book of the WoT series in which one of the primary characters of the series, Mat Cauthon, didn't even have one page devoted to his story arc. And we're talking about a book that's approximately 750 pages long.

I think that may have been the point where I stopped reading them. When the series is "finished" (if it ever gets finished, now), I'll probably pick it back up and slog through the thousands of pages of people adjusting their flouncy hats or glancing out of the corner of their eye in such a particular manner to suggest something to someone else, or the significance of interior decoration in diplomacy or whatever other nonsense is in between the good parts.

[Optimystik]

Jural wasn't speaking of party dynamics, they were speaking of how well the writer incorporated subplots and different arcs into the story.

I remember there was one book of the WoT series in which one of the primary characters of the series, Mat Cauthon, didn't even have one page devoted to his story arc. And we're talking about a book that's approximately 750 pages long.

I think that may have been the point where I stopped reading them. When the series is "finished" (if it ever gets finished, now), I'll probably pick it back up and slog through the thousands of pages of people adjusting their flouncy hats or glancing out of the corner of their eye in such a particular manner to suggest something to someone else, or the significance of interior decoration in diplomacy or whatever other nonsense is in between the good parts.

It's all good parts. :smallfrown: Mat was left out for a very good reason - a WALL fell on him during the invasion at the end of the previous book, and he came to in the middle of an occupied city.

[JaxGaret]

It's all good parts. :smallfrown:

The "nonsense" I spoke of before was interesting the first few dozen or so times. After that it became a little too repetitive.


Mat was left out for a very good reason - a WALL fell on him during the invasion at the end of the previous book, and he came to in the middle of an occupied city.

It was a very good cliffhanger, I'll give him that. I just remember starting the book wondering what happened with Mat, getting to the middle wondering what happened to Mat, and closed the book thinking "what happened to Mat? Seriously Robert Jordan, a whole book you went without a scene for the best character in the whole series?"

[Avilan the Grey]

Every arc feels like it lasts too long when it's the ongoing one. When the comic moves on from Greysky you'll see just how short this detour really was. :smallsmile:

I don't agree, I agree with the OP; almost all the subplots are too long, especially the Azure City siege (cue V's excellent question about finally being able to go back to rescue the world) and Roy's Death (which, as a plot, is so irrelevant to me I skip all panels that regards it, because Roy has been gone so long from the comic that it feels weirder when he is in it than when he is not. Plus that it has just been dragging on for so long that it is boring).

I am not one of those that wants to go back to say the first 10-20 pages, where everything was D&D in jokes and rule jokes. But I think the comic had a perfect balance before the siege of Azure City. Basically it is now a Dramady, while it used to be a Comedy with dramatic points.

I am also greatly worried about the status of the two funniest and best characters of the story, Belkar and V, since Belkar has a non-future and V is well... changing. I am not sure I will continue reading the comic after Belkar dies.

(as for the OPs point about the kidnapper: I assume that the kidnapper's patience is eaten away at the Speed Of Plot, but yes, it is getting ridiculous).

[Avilan the Grey]

I forgive your liberal arts background. That is a very effective way to explain what's been bugging me about Order of the Stick 'recently!'

-H

Agreed. jidasfire = Thread Winner.


...threads like this are periodic. Generally they spread out once every couple of months. between comics 500-560 there were one of them every couple of weeks. Actually I was surprised it was some months it wasn't brought up, sign that the current arc was kinda succesful.
Even the answers are more or less the same.
This time I see much more "supporters of the actual plot" than in the past, so nothing wrong is happening. It's perfectly normal that a few readers feels the plot is dragging. There are always been, there will always be.
Unless the whole fanbase decides to join that crew, the comic is healty.

I don't know about the rest of the "complainers", but I for one felt a light of hope after V's intervention on the boat, and gave Rich some slack to get the main plot going again. When that did not happen, I got disappointed.

[Jan Mattys]

I don't agree, I agree with the OP; almost all the subplots are too long, especially the Azure City siege (cue V's excellent question about finally being able to go back to rescue the world) and Roy's Death (which, as a plot, is so irrelevant to me I skip all panels that regards it, because Roy has been gone so long from the comic that it feels weirder when he is in it than when he is not. Plus that it has just been dragging on for so long that it is boring).

Plot in Heaven is not irrelevant. Roy gets to become better at fighting Magic Users, Roy gets to meet his idol, Grandad, Roy gets to develop his hate relation with his father, and most importantly, Roy gets to see what happens to his mates when he's not there to keep them in line. He sees his fiancee risk his life, he sees his fellow party members in complete and utter disgrace because he's not there to lead them. And, utlimately, the whole thing teaches Roy that going straight up to Xykon caused bad things to ALL the Order, because in the end all this mess is just to resurrect him. Next time, he will think more about the team and less about his personal agenda. And this will be the key to victory. Staying in Heaven is making Roy a better leader.


But I think the comic had a perfect balance before the siege of Azure City.

Before?? ...the battle for Azure City was THE best part of the comic so far. Huge, intense, epic, and still full of funny jokes.

[Avilan the Grey]

Jan: But then we agree to disagree. :smallsmile: And I didn't say Roy in heaven is irrelevant, it is just irrelevant to me, because I feel it's relevance is not big enough compared to the yet more time it takes to get the plot back on tracks, so to speak. (Quite frankly I tend to skim through most of the strips these days, and only go back and re-read all the word-bubbles if it concerns one of my favorite characters to make sure I didn't miss anything essencial).

[jidasfire]

[QUOTE=Avilan the Grey;5644121]Agreed. jidasfire = Thread Winner.

Aww, thanks Avilan. That's cool of you to say.

As regards everything else, I still do enjoy the comic. I can also see the benefit in Roy being dead. For one thing, no one saw it coming. For another, it has forced the rest of the Order to show who they are without him. I just have this nagging feeling that even when we do get Roy back, as we invariably must, there's going to be some horrible price paid for it (the Giant said as much) and it's going to take the joy out of what should be a happy moment. I mean, even if the Order gets back together, we know V is going crazy and Belkar, who really has shined recently, is going to die. Not to mention Haley's new indentured servitude to the Thieves Guild. Must every single victory have a thousand setbacks? I'd probably get mad at my DM if they pulled stunts like that all the time.

Still, I will say that the Giant has pulled off good surprises too, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the story will end with Roy putting his team back in order, punking down every C-list villain, and saying "Xykon's heading for Girard's Gate next. Let's kick his ass."

[Jural]

LotR, better party dynamics than WoT?

/headexamine

I was getting at something different when you examine my head :smallwink:

Lord of the Rings was a gigantic epic story which split the main storyline into two different main arcs covering at least 7 different geographical regions and subtasks. But the author lived to the end of the story, completed the work, and all the threads were closed off.

Wheel of Time has a more expansive splitting of characters, in a larger story, but unfortunately all the story arcs were never brought together and resolved before the author's untimely death.

All the subplots got satisfactorily resolved in LoTR, but in WoT they almost certainly never will be. That's all I was getting at. And if you have ever played in a D&D campaign where a DM continually opens up new subplots without closing any of them, you recognize the valus in closing off your stories.

By the way, I have always had my doubts that RJ could have closed off all his threads satisfactorily, but I held out hope. I do remember 500 pages at a time which were just torturein WoT because they seemed to be dealing with really trivial occurances in the grand scheme of things... but frankly, LoTR had it's slow moments the first read through as well for me.

[Optimystik]

Before you despair, the final book ("A Memory of Light") is coming out this year. It's premature to say whether tying off the threads will be satisfactory or not 'till we read it. And to RJ's credit the reason the threads were left dangling wasn't that there were too many of them, just that his illness made it painful to write. He already knew exactly how the book would end, and his notes etc. have been given to the stand-in author.

As for the pages and pages of triviality issue, I personally liked getting a lot of the background on Randland, especially any lore relating to Aes Sedai. But to each his own. :smallsmile:

[Lord Seth]

Note the Battle of Azure City. Xykon committed truly reprehensible atrocities and Redcloak was tactically miles ahead of everyone else, yet the Order still behaved more or less in comedic fashion.Really? I thought the Order seemed pretty competent overall, outside of Roy's rash decision to go after Xykon himself. They just were up against too overwhelming a force, and that's why they lost. As Xykon stated at the end of Start of Darkness, there's always a level of force against which no level of tactics can defeat.

That said, yes, the comic has been dragging. Things that might have ordinarily made me get excited now just make me think "oh good, maybe we'll FINALLY be getting somewhere". I honestly wonder if this is all intentionally being padded so that the next book will be long enough for it to end on Roy's resurrection.

But it's just moving along at a snail's pace. It's like this:
Okay, the Azure City arc is done. Wow, that was really cool! I can't wait to see what's next!
Okay, so nothing much is happening. But that's okay, they're just showing what all the other characters are doing in the meantime.
Woohoo! They're taking Roy's body out! He'll be resurrected soon and we'll get back on track.
Wait, why are we back to the other group? Well okay, we got a few jokes from the orcs, and at least it told us who they're going to trade with and solved some of the problems they were having.
Okay, back to getting Roy resurrected. Okay, a detour to the oracle, and the Mark of Justice goes off. Okay, that's fine. They'll go get Roy rezzed and get Belkar fixed up so the Mark of Justice plot point is removed. Looks like we're getting back to...
Wait, what? Why is Celia taking Roy to Greysky City even after Haley told her not to? You freaking idiot, don't do it! No! Don't go to that guy, he's obviously not going to resurrect him! Argh! What an idiot! Now we'll have to wait for them to rescue Roy for the story to go on! Argh!
Wait, why are we back to Elan's group? We already dealt with them! Get back to rescuing Roy, resurrect him, THEN go over to Elan's group! Okay, I admit the sadistic choice lampshades were a little funny, but can't we hurry this up so we can get back to the sidequest THAT WE SHOULDN'T HAVE BOTHERED WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE? Wait, Therkla died? Oh, great! Now we just spent all that time on a character whose STORY ARC WENT NOWHERE!
Okay, phew, now we're FINALLY getting somewhere. They're fighting the thieves' guild, Belkar got cured. Looks like we're finally getting somewhere.

...something like that. We've just delayed resolution for way too long. I'm honestly wondering if the story is being padded on purpose just to stretch it out so Roy doesn't get resurrected until the end of the next book.

I guess maybe now that it looks like things are finally getting resolved I shouldn't be complaining so much, but so much of the last 100+ strips have really just needlessly stretching out the story. A lot of this stuff could have worked if it were spread out among the main story, but it's all being put in a row is what makes it so boring.

[[TS] Shadow]

One of the problems with OotS is the format: webcomic. It's been said before, but trying to tell a story through webcomic is going to drag. A lot. I felt it too when my archive binge ended. Buy the book, and you'll see how much faster everything moves along when you don't have to wait between posts. The Battle of Azure City didn't seem to last that long for me when I was reading it through the archives.

To all of the people who complain about the drama as opposed to comedy: most of the comedy came from the characters interacting with eachother. We don't have Roy/Elan, Belkar/V, V/Elan, Elan/Haley and Belkar/Roy, and these pairings provided a ton of the jokes. Having them seperated naturally lessens the joke count, but also allows them time to develop as characters. Rarely will an outstanding comedy win over an outstanding tragedy.

You'd be surprised at how many subplots can be resolved in the seige on Grubby's castle alone. Roy's rez, money for Haley, Celia leaving, Belkar's fake development, contact with Durkon, party getting back together. That's a lot of progress with one arc, don't you agree?

[JaxGaret]

Before you despair, the final book ("A Memory of Light") is coming out this year. It's premature to say whether tying off the threads will be satisfactory or not 'till we read it. And to RJ's credit the reason the threads were left dangling wasn't that there were too many of them, just that his illness made it painful to write. He already knew exactly how the book would end, and his notes etc. have been given to the stand-in author.

It's definitely getting done this year? Good to know, thanks.


As for the pages and pages of triviality issue, I personally liked getting a lot of the background on Randland, especially any lore relating to Aes Sedai. But to each his own. :smallsmile:

The Aes Sedai and the lore is good too, there are plenty of good parts in the books, which is why I plan on finishing the series. I could care less about stuff like the difference in fashion statements between Domani and Cairhieners, or how some third-bit character who we see four times total perches their hat in precisely such a way as to piss some other character off.

[Optimystik]

I could care less about stuff like the difference in fashion statements between Domani and Cairhieners, or how some third-bit character who we see four times total perches their hat in precisely such a way as to piss some other character off.

The fashion stuff is good too! You pick up all kinds of interesting tidbits like Domani are fiendish traders that use their sheer garb to put business rivals off balance, and Cairhienin are hypocrites that act very stoic and reserved in public yet completely wild and reckless in private (or during festivals.) Anyway, like I said to each his own, I just find it amusing that he can make so many varieties of one race so different an yet still so plausible. :smallsmile:

I will say that if details like that annoy you, avoid George R. R. Martin :smalleek:

[A Quiet Person]

Shadow;5647623']The Battle of Azure City didn't seem to last that long for me when I was reading it through the archives.

Actually, I read through the Azure City siege as it was put up on the site, and I did not find it terribly long. The siege was a powerful story, alternating between big developments and good jokes. I didn't get tired of it.

When I said that the plot seemed to be getting dragged out, I didn't mean in the sense of time; I can handle a long arc. I meant in the sense that too many setbacks have been built into the sub-plot to hold up the PCs from what they want to do and irritate them.


Shadow;5647623']Rarely will an outstanding comedy win over an outstanding tragedy.

At the Oscars, probably. But that said, I think that the strip has always known how to mix tragedy and comedy without one wiping out the other. From Durkon breaking up with Hilgya to Roy's death, the strip has been funny and sad at the same time.

The OoTS's jokes aren't losing out to tragic developments; they're getting lost in loads and loads of speech bubbles of exposition. I mean, last strip was basically a big monologue re-cap of things that we mostly already knew were happening, with a joke or two slipped into the mix.

I am still reading the strip even though I am not enjoying it as much at the moment. But that's because I know that the OoTS can be better than this.

[Lord Seth]

The Aes Sedai and the lore is good too, there are plenty of good parts in the books, which is why I plan on finishing the series. I could care less about stuff like the difference in fashion statements between Domani and Cairhieners, or how some third-bit character who we see four times total perches their hat in precisely such a way as to piss some other character off.http://www.incompetech.com/Images/caring.png
Sorry. I had to do it.

[Spoomeister]

Unless someone else can do the Giant's art as well as he can, the Giant is moving as lickety-darned-split as he can. So the webcomic is slower. I just roll with it.

Several days to wait for an average side plot from here is much better than most webcomics every day. Most webcomics are poo.

[David Argall]

Shadow;5647623']
Having them seperated naturally lessens the joke count, but also allows them time to develop as characters.
And I will take jokes and less developed characters, thank you.


Shadow;5647623'] Rarely will an outstanding comedy win over an outstanding tragedy.

Now a drama may be able to hold up to a comedy, but tragedy loses out hand over fist. It has always been the less popular form, and survived largely due to a belief it was refined, while comedy was crude and low class, and pays better.

[FoE]

When Roy died, you had to know there would be consequences. The story is robbed of any drama if the characters can die and be resurrected with the same ease as buying a carton of milk. I'm not surprised in the least that only now it seems like Roy might be resurrected. Just be patient.

[Avilan the Grey]

Shadow;5647623']To all of the people who complain about the drama as opposed to comedy: most of the comedy came from the characters interacting with eachother. We don't have Roy/Elan, Belkar/V, V/Elan, Elan/Haley and Belkar/Roy, and these pairings provided a ton of the jokes. Having them seperated naturally lessens the joke count, but also allows them time to develop as characters. Rarely will an outstanding comedy win over an outstanding tragedy

I don't agree, I have no patience for tragedy if it outshines the comedy, simply because that is what reality is. If I want a sad or cruel story, I watch CNN. Dramady is fine if done right, and Comedy Dramas are even better (Scrubs, MASH, etc).
As for the party interaction lacking and causing the drop in the level of jokes: Duh. This is what a lot of us have been saying all along; we are sick and tired of the party being split up for what? 2/3 of the story. We have been eagerly waiting at the end of every subplot to finally get the party together again...


And I will take jokes and less developed characters, thank you.

A near thread-winner. I completely agree.


Now a drama may be able to hold up to a comedy, but tragedy loses out hand over fist. It has always been the less popular form, and survived largely due to a belief it was refined, while comedy was crude and low class, and pays better.

Amen, and see my comment above.

And I agree with A Quiet Person; the actual length of a side plot is not necessarily what makes it too long, or too frustrating.

[Optimystik]

As I said before, it's all relative. The Cliffport arc lasted for almost 30 strips, and that's not counting the ones when Elan returned to Azure City to resolve that subplot. Yet there were few complaints about that.

Then again, Cliffport had the entire Order, plenty of magic and swashbuckling, interesting NPCs (CPPD, anyone?) and the Linear Guild. Greysky has... Belkar.

[FoE]

Then again, Cliffport had the entire Order, plenty of magic and swashbuckling, interesting NPCs (CPPD, anyone?) and the Linear Guild. Greysky has... Belkar.

And he is awesome. :smallwink:

[Avilan the Grey]

And he is awesome. :smallwink:

Word. And HE is the one that will be killed off :smalleek:

[Keinnicht]

Yeah, I've had this objection too. The battle of Azure City was long, sure, but at least entertaining stuff was happening, plus all the extra long strips. The problem is that it isn't resolving. It's just sort of hiding in homeostasis. The biggest plot development of late is "Celia is lame."

However, I'm guessing once it picks up it's going to pick up quickly, so that'll be good.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

In a novel, this is usually called a "sagging center." The author writes a great first third to the book -- fast moving, interesting, entertaining. Then they just wander around tediously for the middle third, and finally pick up again for the end.

I'm guessing that the concluding part -- when the party is finally together again, and they go after Xykon, the Snarl, and what-have-you, that things will pick up again and become interesting.

At the moment, I just check it out to see if anything is happening again. Thus far, no. No quips, no puns, no game-world-turned-into-a-real-world-and-mocked weirdness. Just the characters yammering long-windedly at each other and getting haircuts. :smallsigh:

But I have hope. :smallsmile:

[Jural]

Before you despair, the final book ("A Memory of Light") is coming out this year. It's premature to say whether tying off the threads will be satisfactory or not 'till we read it.

That's true. I hold out very little hope that someone will be able to do RJ's story justice in their first time at the wheel... but I agree to withhold judgement, and hold out hope that RJ's notes were awesome, and the writer will be up to the task.


As for the pages and pages of triviality issue, I personally liked getting a lot of the background on Randland, especially any lore relating to Aes Sedai. But to each his own. :smallsmile:

That's what annoys me the most... I enjoy them too! But you find yourself immersed for 20 pages in a trivial thing, then are suddenly thrust back into remembering "Oh yeah, the world is in peril... maybe the mating rituals of doormice aren't the most important thing to think about."

It's the feeling you get when you are writing a term paper, then take a 5 minute break, which turns into a 2 hour marathon game of team strip ping pong with the sexy neighboors next door.

Sure it's fun, but there's something more important going on here! Hmm, bad example, the strip ping pong is probably more important...

[Optimystik]

It's the feeling you get when you are writing a term paper, then take a 5 minute break, which turns into a 2 hour marathon game of team strip ping pong with the sexy neighboors next door.

Sure it's fun, but there's something more important going on here! Hmm, bad example, the strip ping pong is probably more important...

"Don't think too much about that analogy, I certainly didn't." :smallwink:

[The Boyce]

However, the heroes have recently not only been trounced by increasingly minor villains, but even by their own allies, which is indeed frustrating.

Trounced by minor villains? Last time I checked the Order has been beating those villains. Orc Island? Pacified. Kubota? Ashes. Thieves Guild? Beaten and then allied with. Exactly which minor villains have been trouncing them? As for this talk about "no progress" Durkon will soon, if he doesn't already, know where Haley and co. are. Haley has a better bow, Belkar is now free to murder as he likes, and the boat crew gained some exp from all those monsters. There has been plenty of progress.


I don't agree, I agree with the OP; almost all the subplots are too long, especially the Azure City siege (cue V's excellent question about finally being able to go back to rescue the world)

The Azure City siege...wasn't that where the forces of Xykon(AKA the Big Bad, the guy trying to take over the world) was waging war on a place with a Snarl portal, thing capable of granting Xykon untold powers. In what way did that no involve trying saving the world?

[Carnivorous_Bea]

The Azure City siege...wasn't that where the forces of Xykon(AKA the Big Bad, the guy trying to take over the world) was waging war on a place with a Snarl portal, thing capable of granting Xykon untold powers. In what way did that no involve trying saving the world?

I rather liked the Azure City siege myself. However, this latest plot is just wandering around, going nowhere fast, and providing little in the way of humor. Ah, well, I guess I'll go back and read the older comics, awaiting better days ... :smallwink:

[Tycho2]

The fashion stuff is good too! You pick up all kinds of interesting tidbits like Domani are fiendish traders that use their sheer garb to put business rivals off balance, and Cairhienin are hypocrites that act very stoic and reserved in public yet completely wild and reckless in private (or during festivals.) Anyway, like I said to each his own, I just find it amusing that he can make so many varieties of one race so different an yet still so plausible. :smallsmile:

I will say that if details like that annoy you, avoid George R. R. Martin :smalleek:

Hell yeah, grrm! 80 main characters and 2000 secondary characters for the win! :smallamused:

As for the topic, well thats just webcomics. All i can say is get used to it. :smallwink:

[The Extinguisher]

And I will take jokes and less developed characters, thank you.


Then read the first book again, and leave the rest of us with the much better story.

[Optimystik]

We CAN have both, you know. Just be patient. :smallsmile:

[Greep]

eh, I really look the exposition in this comic, unlike other comics where expo is just flat out boring. (only part I skipped entirely was the end of the trial comic which was even lampshaded as "wordy for this comic even"). There's a billion comics that do gag a day well "SMBC, xkcd, etc" but very few do plot well.

[The Boyce]

I rather liked the Azure City siege myself. However, this latest plot is just wandering around, going nowhere fast, and providing little in the way of humor. Ah, well, I guess I'll go back and read the older comics, awaiting better days ... :smallwink:

So you negleted the second part of that paragraph. The one where I explained quite clearly that the Order has in fact made progress. Like the whole Haley now having an entire temple of Clerics who can get a message to Durkon, if the rogue cleric didn't already send him the message. That is going somewhere and that somewhere is the party reuniting, perhaps sans V.

[Jural]

Honestly, having a main character die, tracking him in the afterlife, then splitting the party into two different groups in wildly different scenarios, all while taking the focus off of the main plot is...

difficult.

For the Giant I mean. It's a serious challenge to do those things, handle them well, keep the strip entertaining, and wrap up the loose ends before re-uniting the party in some form or another.

I give him credit for trying it, and I think his execution so far has been good. When it's all said and done and I can re-read it one long sitting, I might even say it's great, or just average... I don't know yet. But it's intriguing to watch.

By the way, authors of books have one advantage the Giant doesn't- they can edit the entire work and shorten or lengthen some parts. Once it's posted, the Giant can't. So if the important fight between Haley and the Theives guild takes more space than he wants, he can't go back and edit earlier scenes to keep overall pace.

In that respect, a webcomic is most like being a DM. You need to get to the important points, let the players bask in the most enjoyable moments, and keep up the pace, all while improvising for situations you didn't see coming. As the Giant is purportedly a great DM, there is great hope that this will turn out well!

[Optimystik]

By the way, authors of books have one advantage the Giant doesn't- they can edit the entire work and shorten or lengthen some parts. Once it's posted, the Giant can't. So if the important fight between Haley and the Theives guild takes more space than he wants, he can't go back and edit earlier scenes to keep overall pace.

I understand what you're saying, but I think a book is a lot harder to edit than a webcomic. When a book is "posted" (i.e. sent to the printers) then that's it, fait accompli. With OotS, if Rich wants to make small changes or even insert bonus strips to streamline the flow he can do so at any time, and even use our feedback from the online version as a guide before printing the comics in book form. A writer typically only gets feedback from his editor, family and close friends while a work is in progress.

[xelliea]

Well...

(music here) (http://bettylou.zzruss.com/everydaytaylor.mid)
Every day it's getting closer
Going faster than a roller coaster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way

Every day seems a little faster
All his friends they say go get a caster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way

(A)
Every day chances a little stronger
Every day it lasts a little longer
Come what may do you ever long for
True rez for him - like V longed for hours baby

Every day seems a little closer
Going faster than a roller coaster
A rez like Roy's would surely come my way
(/A)

A rez like Roy's would surely come my way
[Every day (Every day)] x3

(repeat A)

nice :), what is this music called.

[JaxGaret]

http://www.incompetech.com/Images/caring.png
Sorry. I had to do it.

You know, I was absolutely certain that I typed "couldn't". When I read your post, I even went back and double-checked what I typed, because I thought that you had changed it in the quote section of your post. I have no idea what happened, to be honest - I was even thinking about that very graphic's content as I was typing it, and how I get a little chuckle going whenever I see someone else make that mistake. How odd.


The fashion stuff is good too! You pick up all kinds of interesting tidbits like Domani are fiendish traders that use their sheer garb to put business rivals off balance, and Cairhienin are hypocrites that act very stoic and reserved in public yet completely wild and reckless in private (or during festivals.)

I wouldn't mind as much it if it wasn't about fictional nations and peoples I'm never going to meet - and let me reiterate that it was enjoyable the first dozen times. The next few dozen times were when it started to drag a skosh.


Anyway, like I said to each his own, I just find it amusing that he can make so many varieties of one race so different an yet still so plausible. :smallsmile:

Just like IRL.


I will say that if details like that annoy you, avoid George R. R. Martin :smalleek:

Thanks for the forewarning :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Yeah, I agree progress is getting made, and I love the comic the way it is, but when has anything ever been that straightforward? Elegant, yeah, but not straightforward/easy/simple. Next they'll likely be getting Roy's body back, as Haley's idea of traveling to a far away city and hiring mercs would be messy story-wise. After that anything can happen. But I'm guessing there'll be repeated "1 step back, two step forwards"s. I plan on enjoying it as Rich milks the amusement for us, carefully addressing every little issue 1 by 1. And now we take a closer look at V's break down...

[SPoD]

I understand what you're saying, but I think a book is a lot harder to edit than a webcomic. When a book is "posted" (i.e. sent to the printers) then that's it, fait accompli. With OotS, if Rich wants to make small changes or even insert bonus strips to streamline the flow he can do so at any time, and even use our feedback from the online version as a guide before printing the comics in book form. A writer typically only gets feedback from his editor, family and close friends while a work is in progress.

Three points on which I must disagree with you:

1.) While yes, once an author sends a manuscript to a publisher, that is more or less it, the author can review the entire work as many times as he wants before that time. Very few people write a novel on a tight deadline, the book takes as long as it takes, and most writers draft their book two, three, or a dozen times before anyone else even reads it. Rich has to release page 1 to the public before even writing page 2.

2.) Rich can only make additive edits, he can't take anything out of the comic. He can add some back in during the books, but that's it. He can't undo anything once its done, because we've all seen it. Further, the majority of Rich's readers don't read anything but the online version, so for them, this IS the final version.
2a.) The fact that he theoretically COULD add bonus strips into the story online does not matter, since he has never chosen to do so. And for good reason; how would most of his existing readers know they had appeared in the archive?

3.) Rich pretty much ignores all feedback and goes through great lengths to avoid even reading it. And good thing, too. Having a million people tell you how to improve your comic in contradictory ways is unlikely to be helpful. Five opinions you trust are more useful than 500,000 opinions you don't.

[Optimystik]

Three points on which I must disagree with you:

1.) While yes, once an author sends a manuscript to a publisher, that is more or less it, the author can review the entire work as many times as he wants before that time. Very few people write a novel on a tight deadline, the book takes as long as it takes, and most writers draft their book two, three, or a dozen times before anyone else even reads it. Rich has to release page 1 to the public before even writing page 2.

Rich can review and even draft each page as many times as he wants before posting it. He also has no deadline since the comic shifted to an at-will update schedule.


2.) Rich can only make additive edits, he can't take anything out of the comic. He can add some back in during the books, but that's it. He can't undo anything once its done, because we've all seen it. Further, the majority of Rich's readers don't read anything but the online version, so for them, this IS the final version.
2a.) The fact that he theoretically COULD add bonus strips into the story online does not matter, since he has never chosen to do so. And for good reason; how would most of his existing readers know they had appeared in the archive?

The ability to do something always confers more power than not being able to do it. To use a financial example, it's the reason that American stock options (i.e. options that can be exercised at any time) typically trade for more than European stock options (i.e. can only be exercised on the maturity date) in exchange markets, even though 98% of people don't make use of that feature.


3.) Rich pretty much ignores all feedback and goes through great lengths to avoid even reading it. And good thing, too. Having a million people tell you how to improve your comic in contradictory ways is unlikely to be helpful. Five opinions you trust are more useful than 500,000 opinions you don't.

Rich doesn't ignore all feedback; he himself has said that he likes to catch typos, art mistakes and what have you in the online strips before sending them to the printers, and the forum community has helped him do just that several times. What the Giant tends to avoid are predictions.

Besides, not reading the forums himself doesn't mean that he's completely unaware of what is said here. A couple of those 5(-ish) opinions he trusts are likely among the site staff. In fact, this latest comic (#623) is clearly a dig at the forum community.

[Jural]

Interesting points about books vs. web comics, but I still think pace is more difficult to "control" in a web comic.

A further comparison on editing coming from me is likely extremely flawed, given how different the creation and editing process are between the two forms of work. Also, while I slightly understand the editing process for works of fiction, I have no idea how any web comic I read is edited.

[magic9mushroom]

Personal opinion:

I came recently, and archive binged to about 610.

So, no page-turning thing for me.

But I still noticed a big difference between pre-timeskip and post-timeskip. The timeskip was the big slowdown in the strip. Prior to the timeskip, the plot moved along quickly, and linearly, taking us all along on a rollercoaster ride. After it, everything had slowed down to dripping pitch at room temperature. Now, the thing is, this slowing down is actually plot-relevant, because it shows just how important to the OotS staying together is. In a week or less they got through the Dungeon of Dorukan, in a month or so they managed to tie up loose ends and prepare for the siege, the siege was epic (seriously, it was one day, and like a hundred strips), and then 3 months of... nothing. The strip's become a lot darker since the timeskip. I think this is intentional.

So, I think, yes, it got boring at the timeskip, but the fact of being boring is actually important.

[Iliad]

Problem is in novels the action and the plot cannot remain at a stationary level. It will slow down and quicken. The azure city siege was a climax, and the actual action slowed down, leaving character development and exposition until the plot quickens pace again.

[Ridureyu]

Well, I agree with both sides, here. IUt has dragged, and has reached a point of not being AS good, but the strip is still good, and it'll be better in book form.

But yes, I would like to see the plot pick up a little. We've been spinning our wheels for a while now, and there's a difference between "The heroes encounter hardship" and "The heroes are stymied more than WIl E. Coyote, and accomplish nothing."

Although I will say that we are doing MUCH better than Sluggy Freelance.

[TreesOfDeath]

While I do agree the comic's pace has slowed down to an annoying level (did we need to spend THAT much time in the afterlife? Seriously?), its not liek the order has actually accomplished nothing.
If the sending spell worked out, and Cecilla's agreement is good, we may be well on the way to having the order united and Roy raised.
I didn't like 622, i dont know why we needed a long summary instead of actually seeing Cecilia and Haley argue, and I don't know why we needed ANOTHER cutaway at 623 (if that strip had appeared later, I'd have appreciated. having wait a week for a satisfyingly continuation of 621... meh).
Things are slow, but maybe were further forward than you realize.
Also to those complaining, I don't know how you can stand to watch anime or such. I mean compared to something like Naruto, the plot is moving at the speed of light. Of course i don't have the pateince for anime either....

[Avilan the Grey]

The Azure City siege...wasn't that where the forces of Xykon(AKA the Big Bad, the guy trying to take over the world) was waging war on a place with a Snarl portal, thing capable of granting Xykon untold powers. In what way did that no involve trying saving the world?

Ah.

That would be the Azuer City Siege aftermath, not the siege itself.

[Ebonsword]

As some other folks have said, I think that the problem is the fact that the Order has been fragmented for too long.

We now have the PCs in four seperate groups (Belkar/Haley, Durkan/Elan, V, and Roy). It's awful difficult to keep any momentum going when you're constantly cutting back and forth between four different story lines.

And since the Order has been split, it seems like we haven't had any time to see what Xykon, Redcloak, and MITD have been up to--which is a real shame since those moments are some of my favorite parts of the strip.

[magic9mushroom]

As some other folks have said, I think that the problem is the fact that the Order has been fragmented for too long.

We now have the PCs in four seperate groups (Belkar/Haley, Durkan/Elan, V, and Roy). It's awful difficult to keep any momentum going when you're constantly cutting back and forth between four different story lines.

And since the Order has been split, it seems like we haven't had any time to see what Xykon, Redcloak, and MITD have been up to--which is a real shame since those moments are some of my favorite parts of the strip.

Or the Linear Guild, or the Azure City resistance. What's that, seven concurrent plotlines. Ew, yuck.

I noticed the same sort of plot-bog when I was reading the Sword of Truth novels, much the same thing happens, and the most dangerous antagonist group, the Sisters of the Dark, in fact aren't mentioned between book 3 and book 9. Of an eleven book series. So before the ninth book came out, everyone was wondering, WTF happened to the bloody Sisters of the Dark?

[[TS] Shadow]

This arc is almost over. It's a nessicary slowdown arc for the group to come back together and gain strengh for when they come back at Xykon. After we have this section with V (which I think won't take more than 10 strips total, but I could be wrong) we'll most likely have the seige on Grubby's castle (which will take about 20 strips, max) and then have the ressurection and regrouping of the party (which will take somewhere between 7 and 20 strips.) So that's 37-50 strips of relevant, plot worthy material to sit through, not even including all of the jokes that will likely be in place.

Also, it's only been 15 months since the strip started up again. In 15 months we've gotten about 120 strips. I'm not sure how much that is compared to before, but it's still a lot.

[David Argall]

Shadow;5667414']we'll most likely have the seige on Grubby's castle (which will take about 20 strips, max)
Grubby's castle will take at most 5 strips, and most of that unrelated to the castle itself. Grubby is not able to resist any serious attempt to force him to give up Roy, and he is a businessman who knows to cut his losses. Now we might find he has sold Roy already or something, but there is not going to be any long siege of the castle.


Shadow;5667414']Also, it's only been 15 months since the strip started up again. In 15 months we've gotten about 120 strips. I'm not sure how much that is compared to before, but it's still a lot.
In the last 5 years, we have gotten about 600 strips. So production is off a bit. Not really enough to worry about, except that we do worry any time it doesn't show up the next day.

[[TS] Shadow]

600 strips divided by 5 years = 120 strips per year. We aren't that far behind. We probably would already be done with the current Vaarsuvius chapter if Rich weren't sick (if he can get better, I hope he does) and we were on a 3 a week schedual.

I read through most of the current story arc again, and it didn't take to long to get through, really. Most of it was interesting and easy to get into (with the execption of the orc island plot, which was a bit pointless.) Many complain about the new "darker" tone that the strip has picked up. The only parts of this arc that were really could be considered overly dramatic are
1. Therkla's Death
2. V killing Kubota/leaving
3. Strip 610 (which is one of my favorite strips thusfar)
The rest are full of jokes and the same lighthearted manner that the strip has had for a while. The plot focus had been moved up, sure, but it's still full of humor.

[Raenir Salazar]

I saw it as a deliberite satire of story norms that have the heroes having set backs inexplicibly except this way it actually made sense from a DnD campaigner sense. Rogue fighting Golems? Not gonna end well.

[Raenir Salazar]

Also in Bioshock and other FPS's plotprogression as described feels frustrating because often enough you die 40 times before you can progress.

[[TS] Shadow]

Also in Bioshock and other FPS's plotprogression as described feels frustrating because often enough you die 40 times before you can progress.

In most video games, plot and story are two seperate things. Plot tells you to go somewhere or do something, and your skill as a gamer dictates how fast you complete your objective, and thus move on with the plot.

You are right about how situations like these happen frequently in real D&D games, though.

[Quorothorn]

Hell yeah, grrm! 80 main characters and 2000 secondary characters for the win! :smallamused:

FTW indeed!


On the main topic, I personally don't feel any drag in the current plot arc. But then, I had little problem with Crossroads of Twilight, so perhaps I just have a high tolerance for dragging plots and lots of simultaneous plot threads, as long as the story is high-quality. I am somewhat annoyed by Celia's recent actions, but I'm withholding full judgment (or at least that's my goal) until we go back and see the final result of the screaming match.

[SPoD]

Rich can review and even draft each page as many times as he wants before posting it. He also has no deadline since the comic shifted to an at-will update schedule.

Yes, because all of his readers will sit patiently while he reviews each strip for a month before posting it.

Bullcrap.

You know as well as I do that in a real, practical sense, he needs to post regularly in order to maintain readership. He can't spend as much time as he wishes on each strip; the fans start getting antsy after 4 days, and by 10 days, they're ready to pronounce him dead.

Having the theoretical ability to do something is meaningless if actually working that way would destroy the project's ability to support him.


The ability to do something always confers more power than not being able to do it.

He does not have the ability to do what you are saying, however. There is no practical means for him to insert material into the middle of the story or edit it out after the fact. Doing so would be clumsy, confusing, and likely cause a reader revolt. No one wants to have to reread Rich's archives every few days in case he made an edit here or there. So once again, an option that would realistically cripple fan interest is not an option at all.

The moment of publication cannot be underestimated as a point of no return; once the public has read it and digested it, they will start to develop attachments based on the material that they first consume. For an example of how poorly fans take to a creator editing his material after it has been released to the public, take George Lucas' continued tinkering with the original Star Wars movies and the reactions it provokes among fans. And Rich does not have 30 years of fan nostalgia to serve as a financial cushion.


To use a financial example, it's the reason that American stock options (i.e. options that can be exercised at any time) typically trade for more than European stock options (i.e. can only be exercised on the maturity date) in exchange markets, even though 98% of people don't make use of that feature.

I have no idea how this could possibly relate to the business of making comics.


In fact, this latest comic (#623) is clearly a dig at the forum community.

Everyone says that anytime Rich answers a question that he himself raised in an earlier strip. No one ever believes that Rich knew he was leaving a point unanswered then and planned in advance to answer it now.

[Doomcat]

Sry to kind of take a step back here but quiet person, you have to realize with how long Roy has been dead a raise dead would'nt have worked ANYWAY due to the fact he's been dead too long.

anyway onto the main topic: the comic is simply going through one of those times where the characters are developing and evolveing. eventually we'll be back to the days where there was a giggle at the end of every page (if not an all out hysterical tear-makeing laugh) but think about it: there is a main plot, it is'nt just a bunch of random jokes clumped togeather there needs to be times to advance the plot, and no this should'nt happen just in a few strips, the story needs to have some frustrateing parts (for characters and for readers) and some good parts for the heros, without these it would be boreing, you might think its boreing now but like other people have said "you still come back to read it" and is'nt that the real goal of a webcomic? to get people to come back and read it again and watch for updates? now we WILL get back to the parts with comedy at its center...just give it some time. sorry if this has already been said (i did'nt feel like going through 3 pages as long as the first)

[Optimystik]

Bullcrap.

I can see you're taking this discussion far more seriously than I am. Bit of advice, try not to get so worked up over a webcomic forum; it's bad for your health. Ciao!

[[TS] Shadow]

If SPoD was really taking it seriously, she probably wouldn't have said "crap" after "Bull."

What SPoD says is true. Even though we give the Giant more to look over his strips than a comic on a 3 a week schedual, if he takes too long, we'll get angsty. I remember at one point I was worried about the Giant's health because he was taking really long to update. The point is that the Giant needs to have a new comic up every few days, or else we'll just assume he stopped updating, which severely cuts down time he could have spent proofreading and the like.

[fangthane]

Shadow;5672800']If SPoD was really taking it seriously, she probably wouldn't have said "crap" after "Bull."

What SPoD says is true. Even though we give the Giant more to look over his strips than a comic on a 3 a week schedual, if he takes too long, we'll get angsty. I remember at one point I was worried about the Giant's health because he was taking really long to update. The point is that the Giant needs to have a new comic up every few days, or else we'll just assume he stopped updating, which severely cuts down time he could have spent proofreading and the like.

You mean proofreading which would have, say, caught the misuse of the verb "to engange" right? :smallbiggrin:

[[TS] Shadow]

You mean proofreading which would have, say, caught the misuse of the verb "to engange" right? :smallbiggrin:

Or the "Gods of Forgive."