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View Full Version : [4e] Flexible Races (Possible Houserule)



Yakk
2009-01-14, 02:54 PM
Humans get to pick any two different stats. They get +2 to both of them.

Non-Humans have two fixed stats they get +2 to, plus they get to pick one other stat that they get +2 to.

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How would that impact balance? Humans would be a "perfect fit" for most builds that use 2 stats. Non-humans for which any one of their 2 bonus stats line up with the build can become a "perfect fit".

Any race can get a +2 in the "prime attack" stat for the class, which makes things like a Dwarven Crossbow Ranger, or Dwarven Double-Axe Ranger, build less sub-optimal.

I think the main effect of this rule is that it pretty much gets rid of the "Class X is best played by races Y and Z, because of stat modifiers" issue.

This includes things like "Tieflings no longer suck as infernal Warlocks".

I don't think it generates that much power imbalance, because you could almost always find a race that had the stat modifiers you wanted. All it really does, balance-crunch wise, is make it easier to get the stat modifiers lined up with the racial powers you want -- or, it lets you build a race/class combination without making your character "gimped" by either over-commitment to the attack stat, or a poor main attack stat.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-14, 03:01 PM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just increase everyone's ability score budget?

Mando Knight
2009-01-14, 03:35 PM
This would make the Dragonborn even better Paladins, and also encourage more players to be Db Rogues and Swordmages. Dragonborn gain both of the Rogue's substats, and both a Swordmage substat and a Will Defense stat...

This way, a Dragonborn Rogue would have +2 to Dex, Str, and Cha; a Swordmage would have +2 to Str, Int, and Cha; and a Paladin would have +2 to Str, Wis, and Cha... making them the best "universal" Paladins ever. (with the exception of Longtooth Shifters, who would put their second bonus into Cha for the same effect)

Meek
2009-01-14, 03:44 PM
This just encourages some of the current race combinations even more, by allowing races good with two stats to pick up the third stat they need for free. Sure, it fixes the Tiefling at least, but current combinations and perhaps future ones may either be left in the dust or further superpowered.

Yakk
2009-01-14, 04:26 PM
The thing is, that 3rd stat has seriously diminishing returns.

Sure, your Dex/Wis Elf Ranger gets to be slightly better at being a melee Ranger... but the Elf has to still pick which stats are higher than others.


Wouldn't it be simpler to just increase everyone's ability score budget?
By how much -- enough to get a stat from 16 to 18? That is a lot of points.

And on a class that already has a +2 on the stat they want at 18, they end up being able to spend those points on either buying it up to 20 without gimping their other stats, or having ridiculously good other stats.

This change helps race/class combinations that don't have the +2 in the key stat already more, and those that already have the +2 less. Adding more points ... doesn't have that effect.

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Yes, the Dragonborn Paladin becomes better, by a small amount. But you can only attack with one power at a time -- and it either uses Str or Cha to hit. Few powers use multiple secondary stats.

It means that the Dragonborn Paladin becomes broader.

A Human Paladin who goes Charisma can get +2 cha and +2 wis -- lacks the +2 str, so probably has a narrower set of power choices, but on the powers that use cha primary and wis secondary, is just as good as the Dragonborn.

Similarly, the Dwarven Paladin goes from having no bonuses in any attack stat, to having +2 in an attack stat of their choice (Str or Cha). That is much larger in impact than the improvement to the Dragonborn Paladin.

I'm attempting to make more race/class combinations viable. The Some races will continue to have an edge (Dragonborn Paladins, Halfling Rogues, etc), but the edge will be decreased by this change.

It is more than just the tiefling infernal warlock.

Half Elf Ranger. Dwarven Fighter. Dwarven Paladin. Half Elf Rogue. Elven Fey Warlock. Eladrin Fey Warlock. Tiefling Infernal Warlock.

All have to either accept a low attack stat, or pay through the nose for it, as it stands.

And sure -- I could even strip 2 points off of the standard point-buy, and then implement "and get +2 to any stat of your choice".

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-14, 05:09 PM
And sure -- I could even strip 2 points off of the standard point-buy, and then implement "and get +2 to any stat of your choice".

You should probably make that "any other ability score of your choice." Allowing them to start with a +4 racial to an ability score is pretty transparently unbalanced.

Reluctance
2009-01-14, 06:00 PM
He already covered spreading bonus stats in the first post. Reading "you could double up bonus stats" is a large (H)RAW abuse.

Two things stand out to me, though. First, just the fuzzy feeling that this is a little power creepy. It'll cut back on some of the hard decisions where the player has to decide how much they want to splurge on the essential stats vs. how much they want to stock away the points to qualify for a really nifty feat. That might not be a bad thing in your mind - I don't see the power difference being enough to throw encounters off - but it bears keeping in mind.

Second, certain options seem balanced around benefiting suboptimal choices, and we're sure to see more of these as time goes on. Just in the PHB, dwarven racial abilities should make any defender's mouth water. Balanced by the lack of a strength bonus. Especially as more options come out, I don't know how much your system will actually encourage variety, vs. how much it will just encourage different optimal choices.

YPU
2009-01-14, 06:03 PM
experience just adding another bonus generally doesn’t solve the problem. Now as you say your aiming for more flexibility, so perhaps you could consider allowing races to shift 1 point of bonus and giving humans an extra bonus of 1. this way people could squeeze out another +1 in a stat without losing racial heritage or simply being able to get another stat high. This way a race could start with two stats at +2 or one stat at +2 and two at +1 this way specific combinations would still be strongest, but the gap would be smaller.

Ninetail
2009-01-14, 06:59 PM
Instead of adding more stats, it might be simpler to houserule it like this:

Humans get +2 to any one stat of their choice.

So do nonhumans.

No fixed racial bonuses whatsoever, you just get one +2 to put where you want it.

As far as ability scores go, all races are now equally suited for all classes. The remaining variation is due entirely to differing racial traits, like skill bonuses or powers.

JackTR69
2009-01-15, 02:02 PM
Ninetail has an interesting idea there. You could also have it be that you can either take the race's preset stat bonuses, or sub them out for a +2 anywhere they want. Maybe require that they take a feat at first level to do this? Just throwing some ideas out there.

Ninetail
2009-01-18, 05:26 AM
Could work. Might want to throw in a new human racial +2 to a skill of choice to help make up for their reduced advantage in flexibility (which is kind of the humans' selling point).

Satyr
2009-01-18, 05:41 AM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the number of points to purchase ability points? The effect will bo mostly the same (increase one abilty), and it is a lot easier to implement.

Yakk
2009-01-18, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the number of points to purchase ability points? The effect will bo mostly the same (increase one abilty), and it is a lot easier to implement.

I thought I answered this point before?

An increase in ability points would boost races that had stat-boosts that lined up with the class to a greater extent than this proposal.

An increase in ability points would boost races whose stat-boosts did not line up with the class to a greater extent than this proposal.

I want to decrease the impact of the existing stat boosts on the suitability of a race to a particular class, because of the "Dwarves don't make good Paladins", "Tieflings make bad infernal warlocks", "Eldardin make bad fey warlocks", etc etc issue.