Publishing

[Vella_Malachite]

Hi, all.

So, I've written this book, you see. And now I want to get it published. Does anyone know anything about the publishing system (especially the Australian publishing system)? 'Coz I don't know the first thing about it.

Specifically, does anyone know if you're allowed to send in illustrations with it, or how you send it in, or what the standard amount of time you wait for it to be returned?

Any info appreciated, though. Thanks in advance!

[Canadian]

Call a small publishing company and ask for some advice. You can't use any illustrations unless you have permission from the person who created the illustration. You can use royalty free images without permission.

To do it the right way you'll need an agent much like an actor or actress has an agent. You'll also do well to copyright and trademark and special material in your book. This can be expensive to do and will require legal help and plenty of money.

If you send out your book without any form of legal protection people might steal and publish the content. I'd suggest having a confidentiality agreement written up and have anyone who reads the book sign the agreement.

If you send an unrequested submission to a publisher you should not expect them to contact you or send the copy of the book back. Most of what you send out will get no response.

If you just want people to read your book you can self publish the book on the web.

If you want to make money it's a big pain in the ass. Plus the book has to be very good.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Orson Scott Card has a book "How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" that has a section on publishing in it. I recall one important thing is that it is illegal to submit your entire manuscript to more than one publishing company at a time, though he said you could send an excerpt to multiple companies.

I'm not a writer, but I hear writers say that you can't give up until you cover all the walls and ceiling of your room with rejection letters from different publishing companies.

I've heard that trying to publish on your own is disastrous and costly. However, something new on the scene is print-on-demand publishing, such as lulu.com . That might work out but if you're trying to actually make money then the marketing part might be difficult, to get bookstores to buy your book. not sure about Amazon.

I would take Canadian's advice if you're serious about this. If you just want to see what your manuscript looks like in hardcover and give a few copies to your relatives, maybe use lulu.com.

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Library...Reference section...and the help of a librarian.

Here in the States, there's a book called The Writer's Market. It's published annually, and has all sorts of valuable info such as copyright law, who's looking for what, and how to submit what to whom. I'm not sure if Australia has something similar or the exact same book, but it's worth a few hours of research at the library.

If you want to see the online version of the above book, you can go here (http://www.writersmarket.com/). :smallsmile:

[Jimorian]

First off, what kind of book? Fiction, non-fiction, children's? If the illustrations are yours or a partner's, then yes you can send them too.

The text itself should be in standard manuscript format, lots of references for that online. If it's an illustrated children's book, then there are probably some different format considerations.

The U.S. is the only place where registering a copyright is (somewhat) required, but even here you don't bother doing that with submissions -- if a publisher accepts it, then the copyright will be registered in your name by them when it's published.

In all cases under international treaty, the copyright automatically belongs to you when you create it. "Proving" it's yours is simply a matter of keeping on hand rough drafts and notes that will show a progression from idea to finished product. Mailing a copy to yourself in a sealed envelope is pure rubbish and won't prove anything in any nation on Earth.

There should be an Australian equivalent of Writer's Market either online or in bookstores. What's often a much better way of getting an idea of who to send it to is to go to your local bookstore, finding books similar to yours in subject and style, writing down the addresses on the copyright page, and either sending a stamped return envelope with a request for guidelines, or taking a look at their web site for submission info. I really recommend the bookstore search part of this because it tells you who is actually getting their books INTO stores and how often.

Once you figure out where you want to send, get a nice printout in the proper format, then send it along with a nice professional cover letter simply stating that you are submitting said book for their consideration, a very quick 1 or 2-line description, perhaps another line or two talking about the potential audience, then thank them for their time. Include either a stamped full-size envelope for the return of your manuscript, or mark the manuscript as "disposable" and include a stamped business envelope for their reply only.

Wait. Wait some more.... When you eventually get a reply, if it's "yes" great, if it's "no" repeat the above.

From what I understand of the Australian market, getting an agent isn't quite as necessary as it is in the U.S., so I wouldn't get too worried about that just yet. The process is very similar to sending to publishers, though.

Just be aware of a couple of things to be safe: Publishers pay you, and agents only get money if they sell your book to a publisher (of which they then get a % of what the publisher pays). The only expenses you should ever have to worry about are printing the manuscript and postage when you're sending it yourself.

Please feel free to ask ANY questions you have. We'll be sure to get your sorted out before you take that next step. :smallsmile:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

My mum is somewhat important in the Canadian publishing industry.

What I can tell you, is be patient.

There was this one client who wanted the book done and out in half a year. He refused anything later.

I don't think anyone would THINK of publishing his book.

Going through the full publishing process takes a year at least.

[snoopy13a]

I'm not a writer, but I hear writers say that you can't give up until you cover all the walls and ceiling of your room with rejection letters from different publishing companies.

.

That does pose a problem. Since most successful authors were rejected numerous times, it has to be difficult for aspiring authors to know whether or not their work has potential or if they are wasting their time.

[potatocubed]

Just be aware of a couple of things to be safe: Publishers pay you, and agents only get money if they sell your book to a publisher (of which they then get a % of what the publisher pays). The only expenses you should ever have to worry about are printing the manuscript and postage when you're sending it yourself.

Just want to emphasise this one. If a publisher requests money from you, it's a scam. They should make their cash by selling books, not by billing the writer.

[Vella_Malachite]

Wow! Thanks, everyone!

First of all, yes, the illustrations are done by a friend of mine who is crazy awesome at drawing, in exchange for a cut of the loot if there is any.

It's a fantasy, sort of a quest-prophecy-fantasy. If anyone wants some more info or an excerpt or something, just ask.

No, in Australia, you don't have to copyright the material; my Mum's worked with publishing legislation before and down here it's copyright as soon as it's published.

I'll have a look for some of those types of magazines. We've also got a friend who used to run a bookstore, so we're inviting him over for dinner and schmoozing and to pick his brains.

Does anyone know if I should send in the illustrations as part of the document, where I envisage them going, and maybe some scaled-up versions, or just all pictures separate with notes on the back as to where they go?

[Jimorian]

Wow! Thanks, everyone!

First of all, yes, the illustrations are done by a friend of mine who is crazy awesome at drawing, in exchange for a cut of the loot if there is any.

It's a fantasy, sort of a quest-prophecy-fantasy. If anyone wants some more info or an excerpt or something, just ask.

What's the length in word count? Also, if it can be considered "young adult" then where you send it might change (not always, some publishers handle both regular and YA works, so they'd decide where best to market it if they take it). Being YA or younger also makes it easier with the illustrations (more on that below).


No, in Australia, you don't have to copyright the material; my Mum's worked with publishing legislation before and down here it's copyright as soon as it's published.

Yep, like I was saying, registering is a U.S. only quirk. If there is any paperwork aside from that, the publisher takes care of it anyway.


I'll have a look for some of those types of magazines. We've also got a friend who used to run a bookstore, so we're inviting him over for dinner and schmoozing and to pick his brains.

That's a great resource to have! Just knowing which publishers actually sell books they put out is a huge advantage. Make sure it's a nice dinner. :smallsmile:


Does anyone know if I should send in the illustrations as part of the document, where I envisage them going, and maybe some scaled-up versions, or just all pictures separate with notes on the back as to where they go?

I think the best way to go is to just put "{Illustration #4 (optional title) inserted here}" at the appropriate place in the manuscript, then a separate bundle of the illustrations with the submission.

Now, generally publishers don't care if you have illustrations for a prose book, they're going to judge the story first and foremost. Also, it's very easy to seem amateurish when including illos -- it's very often an early warning sign to editors of a really bad overall submission. I'm going to buck the trend, however, and say that you should go ahead, but keep the following in mind.

First, make sure your presentation does come across in a professional way. As I said before, a nice succinct business-like cover letter. Point out that you've included illustrations that you'd like to see used, but that you understand the story is the prime consideration.

Second, understand that it's very possible that they'd take the book, but decline to use the illos. You and your friend should decide ahead of time what your reaction to that should be. One possibility is that as author, you still have the option of using your friend's art in your own promotional material -- web site, posters, calendars, etc., even if the publisher never officially buys or acknowledges it. In that case, you would turn over a fair share of proceeds to them as a side deal after you get paid from the publisher. Merchandise sales from a Cafe Press type service wouldn't pass through the publisher, but would come directly to you both.

I could go on, but the point here is this. I think you should send it in as part of the submission, despite what probably will be everybody else's advice to not do it, because it's part of why this book is special to you and why you want to take this large next step.

Editors are human, and they see a lot of manuscripts that just don't stand out, and they desperately want to find something they can feel passionate about. When you've written a story that you have passion about and you've written it well, if your friend shares that passion and it's coming through in the art, then you've won half the battle. The rest is whether that reaches the person on the other end. You can't make them feel it with a gushing cover letter (which is where a lot of people mess up -- if you have to TELL the editor that they're about to read OMGZ teh best book Evah! this is almost a guarantee that it's worse than rubbish :smalltongue:), it has to simply come across on the page.

OK, I'm rambling, but one more point. I edited a fantasy short story webzine for a while. I published quite a few pro writers -- novelists, screenwriters, award winners -- but one of the most satisfying moments, and the story that got the best review for the zine, was from a 15 year old high school student. I didn't even know that until after I had made my final selections for that issue, then went back and read the cover letters.

So that's why I think it's really cool that you're making this attempt, and why I'll be willing to answer more questions, or help in any other way within the limits of my ability and knowledge. If you'd like my opinion on the material, just let me know. I try to be encouragingly honest.

[Z-dan]

This thread is actually very useful for me too... I'm writing a fantasy novel, and it's got my own unique twists to it (definitely not your run-of-the-mill quest to find the great macguffin) but the only problem is that I'd like it set in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting- meaning getting permission from the wizards by the coast... Does anyone know how to go about this, or should I just alter it slightly to fit a world of my own devising?

[Jimorian]

This thread is actually very useful for me too... I'm writing a fantasy novel, and it's got my own unique twists to it (definitely not your run-of-the-mill quest to find the great macguffin) but the only problem is that I'd like it set in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting- meaning getting permission from the wizards by the coast... Does anyone know how to go about this, or should I just alter it slightly to fit a world of my own devising?

Ahhh, I've been there. The first novel I wrote was a Star Trek one. :smallsmile:

Unfortunately, almost all shared universes like ST and FR are done these days by established pros. If you start selling your own novels (or comic books, or screenplays, but something professional), then you can query the publisher to see if they want to work with you.

So start filing off those serial numbers, or set it aside until after you're bigger than R.A. Salvatore. :smallwink:

[Vella_Malachite]

Yes, it's a Young Adult fantasy. A storyline I made up when I was 11 can't really be anything else...

But here's the blurb:


There was no noise. No flash of light. Lizzie had barely moved an inch. She had merely been pushed by some invisible force and taken a surprised step backwards – and had fallen.

It was a normal day for Lizzie and James. In fact, it was their birthday. But a necklace in the attic changed everything. Where has Lizzie gone? How will James follow her? What does this prophecy mean, anyway?
And will they ever make it home?

[Canadian]

I wish you the best of luck. No matter what happens stay positive!

[RTGoodman]

This thread is actually very useful for me too... I'm writing a fantasy novel, and it's got my own unique twists to it (definitely not your run-of-the-mill quest to find the great macguffin) but the only problem is that I'd like it set in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting- meaning getting permission from the wizards by the coast... Does anyone know how to go about this, or should I just alter it slightly to fit a world of my own devising?

If I remember correctly, there's a section on the WotC website about submissions for novels and stuff like that. Lemme try to dig that up for you, since it's EXACTLY what you need.

EDIT: Ah, apparently that was even easier to find than I expected. Here's a link to the Wizards of the Coast Book Publishing website (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/default.aspx), and specifically their Submission Guidelines (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/default.aspx?doc=WriterResources). Unfortunately, it looks like you're going to have to wait until they contact YOU to write for them:


Book Department Writer's Guidelines

Thank you for your interest in writing for Wizards of the Coast. We do not currently accept unagented, unsolicited submissions for our game-related properties. Please keep an eye on our website for future submission opportunities.

Those who wish to write for young readers should follow our Mirrorstone guidelines (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Submissions.aspx).

[Serpentine]

Jimor, a question for both your sakes - hers, so she knows where her information is coming from, and yours so that you can be taken seriously: What's your experience in this field, your background? And if you've had something published, what is it, so we can go read and judge it? :smallwink:

There's a published author who comes into the library a lot, Sophie Masson. I could ask her, but I think everything's been covered and I haven't really talked to her much. Alternatively, next time she comes in I could grab her contact details for you, Vella - she's Aussie an' everything :smallwink:

[A Very Odd Dad]

You can always use the scanner/copier at your local library or campus and bind the copies by hand. That's how I did it. ;)

Bonus points if you distribute it by hand, preferably by shouting on the library/campus steps and being really pushy and salesman-y.

[Jimorian]

Jimor, a question for both your sakes - hers, so she knows where her information is coming from, and yours so that you can be taken seriously: What's your experience in this field, your background? And if you've had something published, what is it, so we can go read and judge it? :smallwink:

Fair enough. :smallsmile:

One story published in the 1999 anthology The Age of Reason (https://www.sff.net/books/btls.asp) (OK, just for fun, just posted it over in Arts and Crafts -- "The Ever-Rising Tide" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5662684&postcount=1) :smalltongue: ) which made me eligible to join SFWA, Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. Most of my information is technically 2nd hand, from paying attention to what the pros say in the forums there, on other forums around the net where pro writers and editors hang out, and from going to most of the World Science Fiction and World Fantasy Conventions over the past decade (the real scoop on a lot of issue only comes out during after hours in the bar :smallwink:).

I have close friends in various capacities around the business, mostly writers, but also copyeditors, assistant editors, screenwriters, artists, and even one managing editor at one major American imprint, so when I have questions, I have sources I can rely on. I was also heavily involved in early online efforts to expose scam publishers and agents, which eventually evolved into the exceedingly useful resource at SFWA: Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/) (I'm not active in any official capacity, I just post warnings when the issues come up anywhere I see).

Finally, the webzine I mentioned, which gave me a good look at the business from the other side of the page. Coming up with submission guidelines and a contract that achieved my zine goals while being fair to the writers. But mostly just seeing the wide range of quality and styles from an open submission process and calibrating my sensors to figuring out why a particular story works or not against the background of a lot of otherwise fine stories. The rights to the stories expired some time ago, but I still have the list of authors I published with bios here (http://www.sfroundup.com/elysian/bios.asp). Artistically, I think the zine was a great success -- the range and quality of stories exceeded my original vision, but I was a terrible manager of the endeavor, constantly getting behind on the tasks involved, so I had to finally let it go.

I have a couple novels I'm shopping around without success so far, but I'm about to try a different tactic with a new project that you'll all hear about soon.

Anyway, I realize that sometimes I speak from more authority than I really have, but I do try to make it clear when I veer off into personal opinions rather than collected wisdom. On the other hand, I have also found it disturbingly common for published authors to extrapolate from their personal experience to general industry practice in ways that are sometimes horribly wrong and damaging, so I've learned not to be afraid of correcting them when necessary.

[InaVegt]

Okay, important thing to mention.

If nobody will buy your manuscript, don't give up writing, instead, aim a bit lower for now.

One problem with book-length prose is that they are risky. If you've not been published before you have no name recognition, at all. For an author his/her name (or pseudonym) is the brand. This is why names tend to be so big on books, especially on books written by people who have written bestsellers before.

Selling a product withour brand recognition is hard, as such, brand new authors will only sell their books to publishers if they have written an excellent book.

The other problem with book length prose is that it's hard to write well. You need to keep your readers interested, which means you got to keep the pace up.

The more a story deviates from 3k-7k the more difficult this becomes. Shorter is very challenging if you wish to have a story, but longer means you have to keep the story going. Which is difficult, very difficult, on book length prose, which tends to be at least 20k words, for a thin booklet.

Short stories are still difficult to get published, but because they require less investment, and they are easier. If your book doesn't get published, but you're serious about becoming a professional author, try for some short stories. A single short story won't pay much (It's usually word count based. Don't expect any royalties, just a flat x cents per word thing. In the USA, current rates are somewhere from 5 till 8 cents per word, usually closer to 5 than 8. This means that, on the typical 4k words short story, you'll get paid somewhere in between 200 and 300 USD, probably in between 200 and 240.), but it serves three things.

1) Even though you likely won't get your first story published, when you get one published, it is a clear sign that your writing skills are good enough to at least earn some money with.

2) As you publish more short stories, you'll become known, not well, but you'll be a name publisher can find back, a name they can look up more work about if they want to. It's not a big brand, but it's the start of building a brand.

3) It'll improve your writing, no matter what. This is why I said when in point 1, because I believe that while some might have more of a natural gift for some things, everybody can train every skill to professional levels unless they have an actual disability that prevents this from happening. (Major dyslexia is a likely candidate for a disability to prevent writing skills from developing.), now this might mean that you'll have to do a LOT of work, but if you're serious about getting published, don't give up, keep trying, and even if it take 40 years, if you keep trying, I'm sure you'll eventually get something published.

So, basically, what I'm saying is, try to get your book published, but don't give up writing when they say no. Try with short stories, it's the easiest route, and the 'professional route' (put in between quotes because there are best selling authors who didn't go this route, but best selling is mostly a matter of luck anyway.)

[Vella_Malachite]

Gezina, the advice is really good and awesome and alll, but I'm afraid I just can't write short stories. I have no patience with anything shorter than 100 pages, either to read it or write it, and any of my English teachers will tell you the same. I like a long time to explore characters and complicated plotlines, and usually when I am forced to write short stories for school assessments, they're usually snippets of a larger story. I actually got my English teacher hooked on a story last year doing that...she kept wanting sequels...While it makes sense and is probably the best way to go about doing things, I have real trouble with short stories because they just don't feel...explored enough.

If you could talk to the author, Serp, that'd be really great. Thanks!

I'm almost finished my final check-over. Now I'm getting heaps of friends to read over it for their feedback over as wide a demographic as I can. Thanks for everything, everyone!

[Jimorian]

Yeah, some people are just NOT short story writers, while others can't do novels. Gezina gets it absolutely right with "keep writing", though. :smallsmile:

Take a peek at Australian fantasy author Fiona McIntosh's (http://www.fionamcintosh.com/faq.html) web site, she gives some good advice on there, and is somebody who would be willing to answer questions if needbe (I know her from conventions enough to say "hi" is all, but she's very nice and helpful).

Another good resource is to check around for other author sites, those with forums in particular. Start with the publisher sites of the Australian publishers you're looking at and see if they have links to their authors. When they do have message boards, it's very likely that many of the questions you have will have already been asked and answered, and if not, you can ask yourself.

But it sounds like you have a pretty good plan in place, so good luck!

[Canadian]

Aim high. Don't let anyone bust your ambitions. If everyone was "realistic" about everything nobody would ever become president.

Look at the last president. He was a C- student and dumb as a bag of hammers. If he can become leader of America you can get a book published.

Stay positive. Do your thing. Have fun!

[Serpentine]

If you could talk to the author, Serp, that'd be really great. Thanks!Sorry Vella, I missed this! She actually has her email ([email protected]) on her (pretty poorly done, really) website (http://users.nsw.chariot.net.au/~smasson/).

[Felixaar]

No matter what happens stay positive!

^Best advice you will ever get.

Hmm. Since you're going YA, theres no point emailing Louise Thurtell, and most Australian Publishers don't want unsolicited manuscripts, meaning you need an agent to talk to them. So it's probably worth checking out The Australian Literary Agents Association (http://auslitagentsassoc.com.au), who have a list comprised entirely of reputable agents.

In publishing, especially with an agent, you will probably get more attention if you have a few credits first. If you feel like writing a short story and trying to get it published, Australia has two fantasy/sci-fi mags I know of, Aurealis (http://www.aurealis.com.au) and Andromeda Spaceways Inflight Magazine (www.andromedaspaceways.com). ASIM is a bit more lighthearted and easy going, but Aurealis pays more.

Don't rule out publishing overseas, either - the simple fact is that Australia doesn't have much of a market for fantasy, mainly because we live in such a stevedamned awesome country to start with we don't need to escape in the realms of unreality. Theres hundreds of fiction magazines in the states, though a lot dont pay, but you can find many just by looking on google. As far as publishers go there are a few good well known ones like DAW and Tor, but I should also point out Leucrota Press (www.leucrotapress.com), who are a fairly new but nice bunch.

By the way, Vell, if you're looking for critique or just people to read, I'd be honored to have a quick flick through. And if you can wrangle in Dragonrider - also known as O Goddess of Perfection - I know for a fact she is quite skilled in the art of taking apart a novel and writing a manual on how to put it back together.

Interesting note, the links in this post are done by hand since I cant work out how to copy+paste on a Mac.

[jazz1m]

You can self publish at http://www.lulu.com

Don't be worried about rejection, it's crappy but it happens to all of us and multiple times. There's a great site that lists a bunch of publishers for short stories, magazines and books at http://www.duotrope.com

Hope that helps.

[VistaniMistress]

You can self publish at http://www.lulu.com

Self Publishing is generally only a good idea when you can't get something published through 'conventional' channels and really want it published.

[Jimorian]

Self publishing is losing a lot of its stigma thanks to legit outfits like Lulu and Cafe Press where you can get real books made and sell them online without giving up your rights.

It's still a very poor choice unless there are special circumstances that would help promotion, however. Total sales usually count in the lower 2 digits IF friends and family follow through on their promise to buy copies. :smallwink: