[4e] Retraining Help

[mrmaxmrmax]

Before I get into the meat of the post, I have three important questions for all of you in the playground:

1) What should my level 7 power be?

2) What power or feat should I retrain?

3) What items should I try to buy?

* * *

My Elf Ranger will face off with what appears to be a level 9 Ogre with no help from my friends on the 22nd of January. Before the battle, I am able to level up to level seven and spend whatever money I can to improve my character. Win or lose, this is my character's last battle. Victory means I stay in town as the new sheriff. Defeat is most likely death. The arena is a 15 x 15 square; it is an actual arena, so there will probably not be terrain worth worrying about.

Here are the important specs for my questions:

[Allowed books include PHB, MP, and AV]

Dex +5
Wis +3

AW Twin Strike
AW Nimble Strike
1E Evasive Strike
1D Split The Tree
2U Yield Ground
3E Disruptive Strike
5D Splintering Shot
6U Weave Through The Fray

Improved Initiative
Initiate of the Faith
Skill Focus Perception
Weapon Focus Bow

Merchants charge 10% extra for all goods and services.
There is a party wizard with transfer enchantment.

Current Salable Items

740.655 GP

Headband of Perception +1 [AV 142] Level 1
Restful Bedroll [AV 176] Level 1

Point-Blank Long Bow +1 [AV 75] Level 3

Bloodcut Hide Armor +1 [PHB 227] Level 4

Lifedrinker Scimitar [PHB 235] Level 5

Shadowfell Gloves [PHB 247] Level 6

Bracers of Defense [PHB 244] Level 7

* * *

Playground, I ask you again:

1) What should my level 7 power be?

2) What power or feat should I retrain?

3) What items should I try to buy?

I will respond with my own thoughts first; after that, please help me all you can. Thank you!

Maxwell.

[mrmaxmrmax]

1)

This is the easy one. There is almost no contest on this one. I am looking at Biting Volley [MP 48], but I look forward to your suggestions.


2)

Split the Tree will be useless in a 1 v 1 situation, which I will be in. Although there are many strong arguments to replace another power, changing this out for something like Boar Assault [MP 44] would turn an unusable power into something okay.

Yield Ground is worthless (I've found). There are no better options until level eight, I think except Hunter's Privilege [MP 45], but even with a +12 init bonus, that could backfire.

Splintering Shot is my best daily, but I could switch it out for Spitting Cobra Stance [MP 47]. The only downside is I still have split the tree at that time.

Skill Focus Perception is awesome for adventuring, but Prime Strike [MP 138] would give me an untyped +1 bonus to attack rolls for this combat.

3)

I want to drop my bow for the Prime Shot Bow [AV 76].

I want the Bracers of Archery [AV 115]

I may be able to post some more treasure I will be entitled to later on. Thank you again!

Maxwell.

[Colmarr]

If I understand you correctly, your character will face his/her last ever combat immediately after turning level 7, and you are after advice on how to "pimp" the character specifically for that combat.

If that's right, I think you should probably tell use more about this ogre. Is it the "Og smash" type with a tree trunk in its hands, or is it possible that the thing is going to be flinging magic missiles at you?

Off the top of my head, my first comment would be that you want a +2 bow. At level 7, your +1 bow is behind the game's expected magic curve.

I would also suggest that you want some healing potions, but assuming you only have 750gp, money is going to be very tight.

[mrmaxmrmax]

That is why I posted the selling rules. I may not be able to afford a +2 weapon. I'm willing to have cheaper armor.

I have been looking at potions, consumables and reagents. The frozen whetstone is too good to pass up [AV 190].

When I say that the enemy appears to be a level nine Ogre, I mean that. I will probably be facing the enemy in the monster manual with perhaps an action point on its side.

Maxwell.

[Mando Knight]

So you're low on cash, lower level, alone, and no appreciable terrain? Sounds like your DM wants to kill you...

By 7th level, you should have a level 6 item, a level 7 item, and a level 8 item... and you're given gp for a level 3 item and a little change...

(MM Ogres are level 8, 11, and 16, though, not 9... there's level 11 and 16 minions, level 8 brute and skirmisher, and a level 11 elite brute...)

Unfortunately, Ogres have reach and are faster than you. You can't just slip out of range and shoot him to pieces, he will catch up.

That said, if your attack bonus is at least +8, you'll be able to hit 1/2 the time, and if your AC is at least 22, he'll miss half the time. (except with his Angry Smash, where he hits about 75% of the time...)

The level 8 Ogres only have an init bonus of +4, though...

[Colmarr]

Unfortunately, Ogres have reach and are faster than you. You can't just slip out of range and shoot him to pieces, he will catch up.

I deliberately didn't buy a MM (I'm only a player at the moment), but are you seriously saying that ogres have a speed of 8 or more?!

Max is an elf in light armour, so he's moving around at speed 7...

This may be somewhat of a moot point, because a 15x15 arena isn't big enough to completely outdistance even a speed 5 opponent, but limiting the ogre to basic attacks by staying more than its speed away from it would have normally been my primary tactic.

[Yakk]

Ogres have long legs.

A single level 9 opponent should be doable, especially with burning daily powers. Unless they are made elite... To make things safer, buy as many consumable items as you can.

How much is the whetstone that gives your weapon a +2 enhancement bonus? Healing potions. Resist all potions. Etc. You want to be able to burn your healing surges during the fight.

Between being able to use healing surges (minor action, gain HP), using daily powers, and the fact that Rangers are decent damage dealers... you should be in good shape.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Keep in mind that an Ogre is a Large creature with Reach. Meaning he alone takes up 4 squares and threatens a total of 36 squares (6x6). And yes, they have Speed 8. With all this combined, he can get to any corner of the arena with his move and a charge, and he will hit you, especially if are lowering your armor class.

Reagents are a no-go for your two-handed weapon. You need a free hand to use them. Whetstones might be a good idea, but since you are low on cash, I would stick to a few potions and getting a weapon with a nifty ability.

[Colmarr]

And yes, they have Speed 8.

:smalleek:

That aside, I agree with Yakk that a level 9 opponent should be doable for a level 7 PC with all of their powers available. That position is based on level-appropriate gear though, and its questionable whether you have that.

Nevertheless, a level 7 striker vs a level 9 brute is going to be a very interesting and "flashy" (ie. lots of big numbers) duel.

[KKL]

How much is the whetstone that gives your weapon a +2 enhancement bonus?

75 GP.

And OP, you might want to look into Potions of Clarity and a cleric multiclass. Two Healing Words has a high probability of saving your ass something fierce. And the rest of your surges? Screw them. You won't need them. If you do, you're already gonna be in a bad enough spot that having them won't save you.

Grab a normal longbow or something and augment it with the whetstone. If you feel like skirting the line, get the highest Shimmering Cloth armor you can to cut down on OAs, since the ogre has a ****ton of reach.

EDIT: If you can spare the feat, superior crossbow will be even better. +3 Prof, 1d10 damage. Minor action to reload, but after quarrying the ogre once, you won't need it.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Shimmering! That's what I was looking for. Our party's warlock invested in a set of that and (because us defenders keep getting mobbed and killed) it has saved his hide many times.

As far as stuff to get rid off, drop the Bloodcut Hide for the Shimmering Cloth. Sell the headband and bedroll (they are useless now). The idea to sell the longbow for a mundane one and getting the +2 Whetstone is a pretty good idea. It's perfect for a single encounter like this one, but gets expensive as a regular tactic for adventuring.

One thing I do heartily recommend is to get an Onyx Dog (AV 182). Since you will only need to use your minor action to quarry your target in the first round and occasionally to pop a potion, that minor action can be used to make that dog attack the Ogre. It has the nice ability to get a free Immediate Response attack at anything that attacks an adjacent ally. This is worth every copper, since you will get hit and adding (on average) about 3 damage per round. If you need, spend a minor to move the dog, a move to move yourself, and your standard to attack. Keep the dog adjacent to you, and it will get to attack when the ogre swings at you.

As for attacks, get Biting Volley. Reflex is the lowest defense you can target, you get two attacks, which crit on 18-20. As for retraining Split the Tree, do it, and I would recommend grabbing Hunter's Bear Trap over Boar Assault. The slowed effect is what you are looking for, cutting the critters speed in half will keep you out of its reach and cutting down the damage you take. Since you will be using your one retraining on this power, you are stuck with Skill Focus(Perception).

If (for reasons that would need to be described as lunacy) you decided to keep Split the Tree to retrain a feat, I would recommend Predatory Action or Brutal Accuracy.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Thank you all for your advice. Here are my thoughts and responses to far.

First, the DM is not trying to kill me. I have been wanting to bring in a new character for a while and four months ago, this Ogre spit on my character. We were level four at the time, so I had to let it be, but I told the DM that day that I'd kill him or die trying.

I believe he is the level eight Ogre which makes things look awesome. I can definitely handle that. My armor class is 22, so he is at 50/50 right now to hit with his +11 bonus. I think he may have said something about elite, though, so shucks on that. With prime shot, I will have a +12 to hit with every arrow.

Treasure from the adventure has not been split up yet; we split gold evenly as we find it, but items we share between the party at the end of the module. In fact, that scimitar and Shadowfell gloves aren't mine, now that I think about them, but I'm sure that I have a little more coming.

Whetstones and potions seem like a good bet, but instead of the enhancement one, I think the frozen whetstone [AV 190] may be a better choice. As a ranger, I will be attacking twice per round almost every round. That makes a trade off between the +1 to hit of an enhancement whetstone for a possibility of two extra damage per hit. I'm not a number cruncher, so I don't know if 10% change is worth 2 damage.

Potions of Vigor [AV 188] may be very good for me. I've got no other use for my healing surges after Healing Word and Second Wind drop me to four left.

I am already multi-classed as a Cleric; sadly, I realized that I only get one healing word once per day. Potions of Clarity look like a good thing to invest loose change into.

Shimmering Cloth will drop my AC by at least two. If I can't get +2 cloth, it drops my AC by three. I don't like the bloodcut, but I love the hide armor. There may be some level 6 armor that our party picked up that we can transfer the enchantment for (I'm really hoping for this).

Moving to a crossbow would make my weapon focus bows worthless. I would need a feat to get the proficiency bonus, so my retraining would be limited to weapon focus for superior crossbow proficiency. +1 to hit vs +1 to damage when my money would be tied up to seems unwise, but please tell me if I am wrong on this one.

Onyx Dog is a great idea that is mostly affordable. Thank you for that suggestion. The only problem is that that covers my daily item power. I don't think I have any others, though.

Maxwell.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Hunter's Bear Trap does look to be a good choice. Slow drops his speed to 2 and he takes ongoing damage as well, right?

Maxwell.

[Mando Knight]

This may be somewhat of a moot point, because a 15x15 arena isn't big enough to completely outdistance even a speed 5 opponent, but limiting the ogre to basic attacks by staying more than its speed away from it would have normally been my primary tactic.

Letting it charge is even worse of an idea than thinking you can run away: the level 8 Brute Ogre only has two powers: a recharge 6 attack that rolls the attack twice and takes the better roll, and the basic melee attack with 2 reach. If you try to run, it'll just move and charge.

[Kurald Galain]

As a ranger, I will be attacking twice per round almost every round. That makes a trade off between the +1 to hit of an enhancement whetstone for a possibility of two extra damage per hit. I'm not a number cruncher, so I don't know if 10% change is worth 2 damage.
+1 to hit is better than +2 to damage. +1 to hit is much better if you use a power that has additional effects on a hit.

Onyx Dog isn't so great because it's a standard action to activate; however, you should definitely capitalize on the fact that you can use an Magic Item Daily. So make it a good one.

[mrmaxmrmax]

I was looking at the Prime Shot Bow, which would give me a plus 1 to damage for being the closer than all of my allies.

Actually, I forgot enhancement bonuses add to damage. Here is the ATT/DMG bonus breakdown with my actual stats including prime shot.

Currently, I have a + 1 weapon. That plus cold whetstone, +12 / +9

If I keep my weapon and use the enhancement whetstone, +13 / +8

If I can get a +1 Prime Shot Bow with cold whetstone, +12 / +10

If I can get a +1 Prime Shot Bow with enhancement whetstone, +13 / +9

If I manage to get a +2 PSB with cold, +13 / +11

If I get that bow, the enhancement whetstone is worthless.

Clearly, the PSB +2 is the way to go if it is an affordable path.

Maxwell.

[mrmaxmrmax]

I know everyone says a +1 to attack is better than a +1 to damage, but that applies mostly to when you have a 50/50 chance, right?

If this is an elite level 8 ogre, that makes his AC 21. With my current +12 to hit, I am looking at 60% hit chance. Does this make a difference in the math?

Maxwell.

[Kurald Galain]

I know everyone says a +1 to attack is better than a +1 to damage, but that applies mostly to when you have a 50/50 chance, right?
No.


If this is an elite level 8 ogre, that makes his AC 21. With my current +12 to hit, I am looking at 60% hit chance. Does this make a difference in the math?
No.

The point is that if you don't hit, you easily do 15-20 points less damage than if you do hit.

Boosting your damage-per-hit by +1 increases your average damage by (1 * your to-hit chance). Boosting your chance-to-hit by +1 increases your average damage by (damage-per-hit / 20).

For instance, 80% chance to hit, 20 damage on a hit = .8 *20 = 16 average damage.
Compare, 85% chance to hit, 20 damage on a hit = .85 * 20 = 17 average damage.
Whereas, 80% chance to hit, 21 damage on a hit = .8 * 21 = 16.8 average damage.

And, as I said before, usually extra effects happen when you hit, which makes your chance to hit even more important.

[Mando Knight]

You seem to be double-posting a lot, mrmaxmrmax... try using the "Edit" button rather than posting again if you thought of something else to add and no one else has posted again yet. Others are pickier about double-posting... but here's the relevant section from the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1):


Double Posting
Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.

[mrmaxmrmax]

My apologies about the double posts. I guess I'm just getting worked up by this fun challenge.

I've run the numbers for those five ATT/DMG spreads using twin strike factored over fifty rounds. If the battle goes on for thirty rounds, I will lose about ten points of total average damage.

Since I am in a short, sink or swim situation, isn't this the time to power attack (as it were)?

You've seen my character; there aren't many extra effects I need to worry about. I've got Elven Accuracy to cover my Splinter Shot (which should reduce his accuracy enough for me to survive). How does that work, mathwise? If I have an x chance to hit, with Elven Accuracy figured in, is the total chance x+((100-x)*x)?

If my math is right, out of the gate with the +12, I have a 60% + (40%*60%) = 84% chance, right?

+13 leads to 65% + (35% * 65%) = 87.75%

I know the numbers work out in the long haul, but for something that will be over in less than ten rounds (I think pessimistically), is the damage not the way to go? That said, I feel like I am being a little obstinate about this, so I will drop the to hit and to damage argument after all of your replies.

Maxwell.

[Yakk]

Potion of Regeneration
Wetstone +2 (gives you +1 to hit and damage)
Potion of Healing x enough to use up your healing surges

You are a ranger. Your at-will twin strike does:
1d8+4 / 1d8+4 and 1d6 if either hit.

At 50% chance to connect, that's a touch over 11 average damage per round.

A healing potion turns 1 healing surge into 10 HP.

A regeneration potion gives you regen 5 while bloodied until the end of the encounter.

So until you run out of healing potions, you can soak up to 15 damage per round, doing an average of 10 damage per round, during the "tail" of the fight.

OAs are less of a problem than you might think -- you can only OA adjacent targets, not all targets within reach. So long as you have room, just shift away and fire a bow shot.

Make sure you have a 2nd melee weapon, in case you need to melee.

Especially if you have enough HP, going down to bloodied and using your regeneration potion could be a good tactic. The downside is you risk being alpha-striked.

If the ogre is an elite, we don't know what tricks the ogre has. It also means that the ogre is no longer in the "this shouldn't be a problem" range: even with your daily powers, a single elite level 8 ogre is ... a 700 XP(?) encounter. Which is the XP budget for a level 12 encounter for a solo character (!). In short, this is a "level +5" fight if the target is elite, instead of a level+1 fight if the target is normal.

What worse, the elite templates often vary significantly in how much they boost the target. So you could have bigger "omg, it keeps killing me", or just "huge bag of HP" problems.

You don't gain much benefit from being at more than 1 square away from your target. Some bad guys do. Don't move away needlessly.

Avoid getting cornered. Giving up a single round's attack to avoid being cornered is well worth it.

If the target is elite, you might want to save your action point for the bloodied portion of the fight -- often elites power up.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Unfortunately, I am also working with an unknown share of party treasure. I could have plenty for a +2 weapon and +2 armor; in fact, I'm assuming that is the case at this point. If that is what happens, what do I do about whetstones?

Is the frost the best one from a DPS standpoint? Acid also lasts for the encounter.

If I were to sell everything I know I have now (except my Non-AC Defense booster) and combine it with my money, I have 2196 GP. A level six item here costs 1980. The DM has at times accepted trading item for item in an unbalanced (but better than GP selling rate) fashion.

In the beginning of the fight, it would seem that getting to the center of the arena is the best choice to start and slowly shift backwards. Unless he is slowed somehow, I won't be having any rounds without getting attacked.

Maxwell.

[Artanis]

*math stuff*
All this is correct, I just thought I'd give another way to look at the numbers, which might help people see how it works out this way.


When looking at this stuff, I like to first look at it in terms of "damage per 20 attacks" because, as the law of large numbers kicks in, you'll wind up with 1/20th of attacks being a 1, 1/20th being a 2, 1/20th being a 3, etc. So unless you're in an extreme situation where to-hit doesn't matter (only missing on a 1, or only hitting on a 20 even if you add a point of to-hit) it makes it a bit easier to compare what the average over time between two variables would be.

Mind you, this isn't nearly as precise as doing all the stuff mentioned in most math posts, but it's a good quick-and-dirty method to give a general idea.

How it works:
Say you deal an average D damage per hit (ignore crit damage, elaborated later), and hit T times out of 20 (note: NOT attack bonus, but actual chance to hit that particular target). So you do T*D damage per 20 shots.

Adding 1 damage per hit makes you do an average of T*(D+1) = TD+T per 20 attacks.
Adding +1 to-hit makes you do an average of (T+1)*D = TD+D per 20 attacks.

Looking at it this way makes it easier to see where adding a point of to-hit is better than adding a point of damage, and vice versa:

The break-even point would be where TD+T = TD+D, meaning the break-even point is where T = D (the point where the average damage per hit equals the number of hits per 20 attacks). This in turn means that if D is higher, adding +1 to-hit is better, and if T is higher, adding +1 damage per hit is better.


Crit damage: Adding +1 to-hit won't change the number of crits, and adding +1 damage only adds +1 to a crit anyways, so neither one changes anything even when factoring crits into the equation


TL;DR version:
If you do more damage per hit than the number of hits per 20 attacks, then +1 to-hit will help more.


In action:
When looking at the OP's stated equipment and stats:

His DEX bonus is +5, and (if he's using the magic Longbow), he gets another +1 damage per hit, for a total +6 on a n[W]+Stat roll. So +1 to-hit adds n[W]+6 damage per 20 rolls, and +1 damage adds T damage per 20 rolls. Thus in terms of pure damage, +1 to-hit benefits him more when:

Twin Strike: if he hits on a 16
Nimble Strike: if he hits on a 10
Evasive Strike: if he hits on a 5
Hunter's Bear Trap: If he hits on a -5 (assuming an average of 2 turns to save)
Disruptive Strike: if he hits on a 10
Splintering Shot: If he hits on a -1

His attack bonus is 3 (weapon) + 3 (level) + 1 (magic) + 5 (stat), for a total +12. So +1 to-hit benefits more than +1 damage for an enemy AC of:

Twin Strike: AC = 27+
Nimble Strike: AC = 21+
Disruptive Strike: AC = 21+
Evasive Strike: AC = 16+
Splintering Shot: AC = 11+
Hunter's Bear Trap: AC = 6+ (average), 11+ (minimum DoT damage)

According to the DMG, the lowest of the average AC scores for monsters is 12+level, meaning 21 for a level 9. So +1 to-hit benefits you more than +1 damage per hit for everything except Twin Strike.

I ain't even touching Split The Tree :smalltongue:

[Yakk]

You are a ranger. Your bread-and-butter is per-hit damage bonuses, which is only second to to-hit bonuses.

If you can afford it, retraining a feat into getting superior bow proficiency, and getting a +2 superior bow, is an interesting choice. That is +1 damage per [W] (which is even better than +1 damage per hit).

A superior bow +2 with a frost wetstone using twin strike, assuming 50% hit chance and weapon focus is about 13 damage per action.

An elite level 8 critter has about 200 HP. Ignoring daily/encounter powers, that's 15 attacks. Assuming x2 damage from 2 encounter, and x2.5 damage from 1 daily (including miss damage), and 1 action point, that's about 10.5 rounds to kill the bugger.

If the elite ogre does an average of 10 damage per round to you (twice what a typical level 8 brute does), you need to soak 105 damage to win. And you have about 50 to 60 HP. Call it 50, for a healing surge value of 12.

You get 1 healing word for 15 HP.
You use 4 healing potions for 40 HP.
You use 1 regeneration potion for 5 HP/round while bloodied. (note: being bloodied is dangerous, but the regen potion only has to tick twice to pay for itself in healing. I'd advise against staying bloodied for the additional regeneration).

That's 50+15+40+15 (3 ticks of regen) = 120 HP to soak incoming damage.

Ie, defeating a level 8 elite ogre is reasonably possible, leaving your powers as-is, retraining a non-combat feat to superior longbow, buying a superior longbow+2, buying a frost wetstone, buying 4 healing potions, and buying 1 regeneration potion... But it will be close. Really close.

On the other hand, with the above setup, you should be able to destroy a non-elite level 8 ogre.

For positioning, you want to move to 3 squares away from your opponent, then shift back 1 square each round.

---

Not getting a superior bow is another possibility.

With your current bow, you have 1d8+2 (wetstone) + 1 (focus) + 1 (prime shot bow?) = 8.5 per hit. Twin strike makes this an average of 11 damage per round.

Against a 200 HP opponent, that's 18 rounds to kill. Minus 1 for an action point, minus 2 for your per-encounter powers, minus 3 for the daily powers (you have 2 daily powers instead of 1) = 12 rounds. At 10 damage output per round from ogre, that's 120 hp -- right on the nose.

Going for a +2 longbow (and using your feat to retrain a daily power into a higher-damage one), you end up with...
1d8+2 +2 (froststone)+1(focus) = 9.5 per hit. With twin strike and quarry, that's 12 per round.

You do get 2 useful daily powers. So the base of 16.5 attacks to kill, -1 (AP) -2 (encounter powers) -3 (daily powers) = 10.5 rounds, or 105 HP to soak.

Using this crude model, swapping out your useless daily for a high-damage daily is about as good as going for the superior longbow option.

However, note that you _really really_ need those healing and regen potions to have the endurance to take out an elite level 8 opponent. Fighting such an opponent is going to be a serious grind, and without the potions you are in trouble.

Another issue is that if the ogre has potions of his own, you are screwed. While a heroic tier opponent only has 1 healing surge (really! If the DM uses a healing potion, mention "I'm lucky that heroic tier enemies only have 1 healing surge" in passing...), that's still +50 HP that really pushes the situation into "oh crap" territory.

Hmm. I forgot elven accuracy -- that generates another ~10 damage on average, which improves your situation.

I seriously doubt if using a 'real' second wind is worth it in this fight. You get 10 HP from a healing potion, instead of 12-13 from a second wind, and lose a standard action, and only gain +2 to your defenses for a single round.

Note that your Nimble Strike is close to your Twin Strike in damage output (about 10% to 30% lower), thanks to your high Dex relative to your "per hit damage bonus". So if you are close to being cornered, use nimble strike to shift away, fire your shot, then move at full speed (starting out of OA range) to the far side of the ogre.

Hunter's Bear Trap does about 23 damage on a hit, and 13 on a miss, for an average of 18. Only 1.5 times your twin strike damage. But it gives you a round in which the ogre is slowed. Use it when you can move at full speed away from the ogre, and you don't start at OA range, if the ogre is melee-only. That can save you a round of incoming damage, which is enough to make up for the fact that Ranger encounter/dailies aren't that damaging at that level. (Ie, use it after you yielded ground on the last round to move to the far side of the ogre).

Disruptive Strike -- remember that creatures cannot take OAs on their turn!

Splintering Shot -- use this early on, as the -2 or -1 penalty will reduce incoming damage by a good 10% to 20%. This is a good thing to use elven accuracy on!

Weave through the Fray -- If you can arrange for your opponent to charge from near max range, while you have lots of room to move sideways, you could counter an enemy attack with this. Shifting 3 squares as an interrupt means the attacker might run out of charge range (and making a right-angle turn during the charge sure is questionable).

Hmm. Looking at martial power... Boar Assalt grants you 3 temporary HP per successful attack on the ogre (doesn't self-stack, but still!). That seems better than Hunter's Bear Trap, which requires lots of effort to make the slow pay off.

Over a 10 round fight, that's 20 to 30 HP soaked -- a huge swing in your HP budget! That's probably the best use of your retrain.

Biting Volley at level 7 is also tempting -- vs reflex, crits on 18+, and [W]+stat damage. The PHB level 7 powers for bow rangers suck.

So the fight starts with: if you are on far sides of the arena, risk being charged. Mark as Quarry, Boar Assault (don't worry if it misses, the effect works regardless), and stand slightly offset from the middle of a side of the arena.

When charged, use Weave through the Fray and shift in a way that makes the Ogre run out of movement to reach you. This requires that the ogre not charge you "strait on", and that the ogre close to range 1 before finishing the charge -- but if it works, you nullify the Ogre's move. As you shift out of the ogre's kill zone, say "Even Ogres cannot charge backwards!"

Ie:


.........
.******..
.******Z.
.**OO**..
.**OO**..
.***Y**..
---------

Ogre charges to locations O.
You weave through the fray to location Z.
Ogre has to do a 135 degree turn on in the middle of their charge to reach you...

Next, use Splintering Shot (and elven accuracy) to debuff the Ogre's ability to attack. A -2 to all attacks will _really_ help. If damaged enough, use a healing potion or healing word (don't waste any healing). If not damaged enough, use a potion of regeneration (then when you are bloodied, you start healing 5 HP at the start of your turn).

Each round thereafter, move to 2 range and use twin strike. Save the per-encounter powers for when the target is bloodied (in case the ogre goes berzerk). If you get cornered, either use shift+nimble strike to get out, and/or burn Yield Ground to move around the ogre. You want to get to the "inside" of the ogre and slowly back away to the far side of the arena. Save Elven Accuracy for a per-encounter power use (they do more damage if they hit).

Use healing potions/healing word when they would recover HP. If daring and you are "safe" from a one-round kill, let the ogre bloody you, have regen kick in, then use healing word to generate a +20 HP (+3 temporary) swing back to safety.

You should only be giving up 1 square per round, and start about 10 squares from the far edge. You should only have to do the "swap sides" thing once -- do it when you are reasonable close to the "wrong" side, and the ogre hits you (don't wait until walled, because yield ground needs you to be hit).

Ayep. That should stand a chance against a level 8 elite, and utterly destroy a level 8 normal opponent, assuming your opponent doesn't use potions on you (ik!)

....

The only downside is that you only make one 2[W]+Stat attack. Elven accuracy is best when you make a high-damage single attack roll, rather than many small attacks. Still, I think it is worth it.

You'll have ~15 HP from regen, 40 from healing potions, 15 from healing word, ~20 from Boar Assault, 52 base = 142 HP before you fall over splat (assuming 10 constitution -- each +2 con above 10 means 1 more healing potion, 2 more HP, and an extra half-point on your healing word -- which is +12.5 more HP).

Assuming the worst case of longbow with +2 whetstone, your twin strike damage output average per-action damage was 11.

Your per-encounters are about 2x 1[W]+Dex, or 16 damage per action (x3), more or less.

Your per-days are about the same -- another 16 damage per action (x2).

5 actions at 16 damage per action = 80 damage.
11 damage per additional action, against 200 HP = 11 more actions.
16 actions = 15 rounds.
142 HP / 15 rounds means < 9.5 average damage per round from enemy, or you lose. You do have bracers of defense, which brings you up to 152/15 = ~10 average damage per round.

Now the AC of your enemy is probably not going to exceed 24 as a level 8 elite.

You have +3 (level) +2 (weapon) +2 (proficiency) +1 (prime shot) +5 (dex) = +13 to hit. So even in the worst case, you hit on a 11+, or 50%.

Your AC is 3 (level) +5 (dex) +3 (hide) +1 (enchantment) +10 (base) = 22. L 8 non-brute enemies are going to hit you more than 50% of the time, which is sad.

...

Shadowfel gloves are useless? They only work on arcane powers.

...

So my advice, without the reasoning why. Drop Split the Tree for Boar Assault (Martial Power). It grants +3 temporary HP every time you hit a target until the end of the encounter.

Pick Biting Volley (two attacks vs reflex at 1[W]+Dex, crit on 18+) as your level 7 encounter power.

If you start at far sides of the arena, attempt to avoid the first charge using weave through the fray to shift as close to behind the ogre as you can. Say, in character, "Big ogre cannot charge backwards? Too bad big ogre!" in a taunting way (establishing why you are doing it).

Use Boar Assault, then Splintering Shot (with Elven Accuracy to make sure it hits), then Twin Strike spam until you bloody the ogre.

Each round, shift back out of OA range (to range 2) and attack.

When you are running out of room to back up, use Yield Ground to "swap sides" (possibly with a shift and/or nimble strike to finish off the swap).

Once target is bloodied, break out your per-encounter attacks (disruptive strike when he hits you -- note that he cannot OA you during his turn. Evasive Strike if you are in danger of being cornered, or to use up your elven accuracy if you haven't used it. Biting Volley as some nice damage output. Then return to twin strike spam.

Buy a regen potion, and (# healing surges -2) healing potions, a wetstone (either the +2 one, or the +2 cold damage one if you also get a +2 weapon).

Use Bracers of Defense as your daily magic power to allow you to dip into the "bloodied" range without being splatted (and get more HP regen). Then bounce back with healing word on the next round. Screw your bloodcut armor resist 10 power (healing potions are better, and cheap) unless you run out of $s.

Use regen potion early -- you want to drink it before you become bloodied, so it kicks in whenever the enemy bloodies you.

You'll slaughter a normal level 8, and might even beat an elite level 8, using this.

I didn't consider the Onyx dog option, I'll admit.

[mrmaxmrmax]

I'm not sure where the confusion is from, but my longbow uses a d10 as its damage die.


With your current bow, you have 1d8+2 (wetstone) + 1 (focus) + 1 (prime shot bow?) = 8.5 per hit.


I've figured a 5.5 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 1 = 14.5 Damage.

Weapon + Enhancement + Cold Damage + Dex + Weapon Focus


Using this crude model, swapping out your useless daily for a high-damage daily is about as good as going for the superior longbow option.

However, note that you _really really_ need those healing and regen potions to have the endurance to take out an elite level 8 opponent. Fighting such an opponent is going to be a serious grind, and without the potions you are in trouble.


The potions seem to be the most important part right now. Thank you so much for your analysis because that has made the potions stand up and command my attention.


Weave through the Fray -- If you can arrange for your opponent to charge from near max range, while you have lots of room to move sideways, you could counter an enemy attack with this. Shifting 3 squares as an interrupt means the attacker might run out of charge range (and making a right-angle turn during the charge sure is questionable).

I just realized that I will not be able to use Weave through the Fray. Since he is a large creature and an ogre, I assume he has reach 2; he will never enter an adjacent square unless he is looking to provoke OAs. Perhaps if I let myself be cornered, I can use it as an alternative to Evasive Strike, but it won't prevent any attacks.

You've convinced me on Boar Assault. With Hunter's Bear Trap, I slow him, but my AC should be such that I don't need to worry about his hits so much. It will not be possible to stay out of his range, though; in a 15 x 15 arena, a creature with speed 8 has the entire range to charge at.

I haven't heard anyone recommend anything for level seven except you and I think I feel the same way. The triple chance per critical seems to outdo Spikes of the Manticore.

The way I see the battle rolling out is like this:

Round 1
Quarry
Whetstone
Boar Assault

Round 2
Move/Shift
Splintering Shot
Draw Regeneration potion

Round 3
Drink Regeneration potion
Move/Shift
Twin Strike until enemy is bloodied

Bloodied Rounds
NOVA!

Now I just need equipment I think. Thank you for your help! And to the nice spoiler-poster two above this one, thank you for spelling out all the math in a simpler to see figure method.

Maxwell.

By the way, should I aim for Bracers of Archery? +2 damage per hit would go a long way in shortening the fight.

[Yakk]

oops -- was thinking Longbows where +2 d8, not +2 d10s. :-)

Ya, that makes things better.

Superior Crossbow is almost a great option, but you cannot afford the minor actions (you want to be quaffing potions). The +3 temporary HP per round you hit (which is 75%+ of rounds) seems better than the greatbow (d12 per [W] damage).

I forgot the minor actions to draw potions (d'oh), that makes the armor minor action better (half as many actions). Wait a second .. drawing a weapon is a minor action. Drinking a potion is a minor action. Nothing about "drawing a potion" -- I think it is included in the minor action (maybe your DM rules otherwise, that's OK, but don't assume that it does require 2 actions).

The OOC comment after the ogre drinks a healing potion of "at least heroic tier monsters only have 1 healing surge, otherwise I'd be screwed" is very much worth saying. :-) (you might be able to defeat an elite drinking 1 healing potion, but not 2).

Charging ... by RAW, they have to stop at range 2. :/ That does mean that move through the fray won't work.

However, if you are at range 2, and the ogre shifts forward (ask if the ogre shifted or moved!), you can move through the fray back two squares. This is far enough that the ogre cannot attack, and close enough that the ogre cannot charge. The ogre won't fall for this twice (it might not fall for it once!), but ... that's one more round you aren't taking damage! (If the ogre moves instead of shifts, move through the fray just lets you 'reverse' the direction that the ogre is on, but not avoid the ogre's attack).

Remember to use OA unarmed attacks if the ogre provokes them (kick him!). Sure, you have a (3+Str) vs AC -- slim chance of landing. And you do 1d3+str (heh) damage if it connects. But ... why not! It might let you land your HQ damage!

...

Finally, note that your character is only pulling this off (the chance against the level+1 elite) by swilling consumable magic items. :-) Or maybe you are lucky, and the DM took the Ogre Brute in the MM and applied a crappy template to him.

On the other hand, if you are facing an Ogre Brute Elite Fighter, you are completely screwed? Between combat challenge/superiority and stances... Hmm... ya, you'd die (Combat Sup/Challenge = 2 attacks per round. Reaping = +2.5 damage/round. Stances = +7 HP/round when bloodied. Then add in daily and encounter attack powers...)

You'd die before being able to take it down.

But really, we are aiming at dealing with a reasonable opponent. :-)

Another fear is that you are facing a down-leveled L 11 Warhulk (which explains the level 9). He doesn't do much damage, but every hit knocks you prone, which ... causes issues when you are using a ranged weapon.

You'll be reduced to using Nimble Strike to get out of OA range (move action -- stand. Nimble strike -- shift away. Shoot the arrow. Minor action -- drink potion). I guess that isn't that bad: the warhulk does 10 damage per hit, which is tiny given your healing potion stockpile.

I think I've about exhasted every possibility other than the onyx dog approach. I'm thinking that the dog will cost too much, be easy for the ogre to smash (aren't they minions, or really low HP?), and will mess up your prime strike (which could cost you more damage than the dog generates).

[KKL]

I am already multi-classed as a Cleric; sadly, I realized that I only get one healing word once per day. Potions of Clarity look like a good thing to invest loose change into.

I've always rolled under the assumption that the feat allowed you to use the healing word power once a day, which has two uses because of the special line.

[KillianHawkeye]

I've always rolled under the assumption that the feat allowed you to use the healing word power once a day, which has two uses because of the special line.

No, the cleric multiclass feat says you can "use the power once per day." This overwrites the real cleric's ability to use it twice per encounter. If you carefully read the special line you are referring to, it clearly talks about "using this power" twice, not "you get two effects" when you use it.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Nothing about "drawing a potion" -- I think it is included in the minor action (maybe your DM rules otherwise, that's OK, but don't assume that it does require 2 actions).

We've played it that it takes a minor action to grab anything, even at the bottom of your backpack. Since a minor action is all it takes to grab from a bag of holding, I suppose we are all just going to have those eventually.

In other words, I know very well that it is two actions for a potion. But, that is what a minor at the end of a turn and the minor at the beginning of a turn are for.


However, if you are at range 2, and the ogre shifts forward (ask if the ogre shifted or moved!), you can move through the fray back two squares. This is far enough that the ogre cannot attack, and close enough that the ogre cannot charge. The ogre won't fall for this twice (it might not fall for it once!), but ... that's one more round you aren't taking damage! (If the ogre moves instead of shifts, move through the fray just lets you 'reverse' the direction that the ogre is on, but not avoid the ogre's attack).

I'll probably catch the DM with this and then let him change his mind; I know if it happened to me, I'd be fuming since we generally don't announce moves and shifts (we just know that any move one when a defender is not involved is a shift).

Shame I only get one healing word. Like I said, I knew this character death was coming one way or another. Hopefully, my character's name will pass into legend as the "probably a standard ogre" slayer.

Maxwell.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait a second .. drawing a weapon is a minor action. Drinking a potion is a minor action. Nothing about "drawing a potion" -- I think it is included in the minor action
According to RAW, it does require two actions (unless you've got Quick Draw). It falls under "retrieve or stow an item", which is a minor action. However, nobody I know of plays it that way, because it makes potions extremely impractical.

Heck, by RAW a warlock can't curse his enemies either, and nobody plays that as written either, because it's so clearly an oversight on part of the developers.

[KKL]

Heck, by RAW a warlock can't curse his enemies either, and nobody plays that as written either, because it's so clearly an oversight on part of the developers.

I've never heard of this one before, and I've heard a lot of "lol RAW".

[Kurald Galain]

I've never heard of this one before, and I've heard a lot of "lol RAW".

(1) an ally is any of your teammates, not including yourself
(2) an enemy is anybody who's not your ally
(3) therefore, you are your own enemy
(4) you can curse only the closest enemy
(5) therefore, you can only curse yourself

Silly? Yes. RAW? Yes, too.

[KKL]

(1) an ally is any of your teammates, not including yourself
(2) an enemy is anybody who's not your ally
(3) therefore, you are your own enemy
(4) you can curse only the closest enemy
(5) therefore, you can only curse yourself

Silly? Yes. RAW? Yes, too.

Oh that one!

Yeah, lol RAW. I don't actually hear that one a lot.

Hey, did you ever hear the one about how elemental weapons don't actually deal typed damage? :D It's hilarious.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh that one!

Yeah, lol RAW. I don't actually hear that one a lot.

Hey, did you ever hear the one about how elemental weapons don't actually deal typed damage? :D It's hilarious.

No, what is it?

[KKL]

No, what is it?

____ Weapons state that the damage dealt by the weapon becomes typed. One guy got the idea that since you were dealing the damage because you wielded and provided all of the motion behind it, that you deal the damage, as opposed to the weapons.

Ergo, you deal the damage. Not the weapons. Thus, elemental weapons are useless!

[Saph]

According to RAW, it does require two actions (unless you've got Quick Draw). It falls under "retrieve or stow an item", which is a minor action. However, nobody I know of plays it that way, because it makes potions extremely impractical.

Well, you can draw it one turn, and use it the next.

So if you're playing an archery ranger, the sequence would be:

Move action: Move
Standard action: Attack
Minor action: Draw Potion

-Next Turn-

Move action: Move
Minor action: Drink Potion
Standard action: Attack

That gets you your heal without any loss of attacks. Or you could just use Nimble Strike and draw and drink a potion in the same turn. I actually think this might have been how it was intended to work.

- Saph

[Yakk]

OP: It isn't that bad. The Fighter Template Elite Brute Ogre at level 8 will probably beat you. You stand a good chance against the down-leveled MM L 11 Elite Ogre (down-leveled to level 9).

The problem with the Fighter Template Elite Brute Ogre is that (A) stances kick your ass, as 1 player alone has to survive the effects of the stance for 6 to 12 turns, and (B) you are a ranged character, and Defenders are good at locking down ranged characters.

Between the two of them...

A possible idea for dealing with the Fighter possibility would be to make sure you have your scimitar and an off-hand weapon. If it turns out the bad guy is marking you and preventing you from moving away safely, simply screw your bow (I know it sucks) and use your dual-use ranger powers in melee.

Then hope your strength is high enough to connect reliably enough. :-)

(Bring extra wetstones to enchant your melee weapons up to +2).

[Kurald Galain]

Or you could just use Nimble Strike and draw and drink a potion in the same turn. I actually think this might have been how it was intended to work.
Quite possibly. However, I do posit that (1) healing potions are rather expensive at low level, and rather ineffective at moderate level; (2) therefore, they tend to be used only in cases of emergency; and (3) in an actual emergency you rarely have a minor action to spare, or a turn to wait.

Healing is generally only useful if either the act of healing doesn't prevent you from attacking as well, or (rarely) you actually heal more HP than what the enemy is expected to hit you for. This is precisely why second wind is not nearly as useful a tactic (unless you're a dwarf) as some beginning players think it is.

[Yakk]

Second Wind's main use is to make attacking you less optimal. Or if you have a round that you cannot manage to engage for whatever reason (fighting a lurker, for example).

You can pull yourself out of being the low-HP target, boost your defenses significantly, and probably get some external healing from other folks.

In this particular battle, even though healing potions are expensive, you need every ounce of duration. And minor actions ... well, they aren't that expensive.

They can extend the time you last in a fight by a good 50%, at the cost of every healing surge, a magic item's worth of GP per fight, and an arseload of minor actions.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Well, two of the three questions are settled.

Split the Tree is being switched for Boar's Assault.

My 7th level power is going to be Biting Volley.

Now I just need items. I haven't been able to contact anyone else in the party offline, so it looks like I may be limited to that 740 GP I have kicking around my character sheet. That means potions and the +2 enhancement stone, I guess.

Thank you all for your help! I'll try to send an update on Friday.

Maxwell.