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DragoonKain
2009-01-16, 02:09 AM
Article 1: The Dragon Donut of Doom Disaster.

Ansom's mysterious teleportation to Jillian's hex.

Okay, so Ansom is leading a bunch of guys with low move, and Vinny estimates they would "eat up just about all of their move" punching through and obliterating the center hex dwagons. Later, they find out they're in a pincer attack and Vinny considers two options: Break through the furthest hex, or fight it out while holding ground and waiting for backup.

But then they turn around and move completely out of the donut without any risk to themselves to help Jillian. ...What? Why were they in any danger to begin with if they could just withdraw like that?

More to come as I think on things.

Whispri
2009-01-16, 02:23 AM
Article 1: The Dragon Donut of Doom Disaster.

Ansom's mysterious teleportation to Jillian's hex.

Okay, so Ansom is leading a bunch of guys with low move, and Vinny estimates they would "eat up just about all of their move" punching through and obliterating the center hex dwagons. Later, they find out they're in a pincer attack and Vinny considers two options: Break through the furthest hex, or fight it out while holding ground and waiting for backup.

But then they turn around and move completely out of the donut without any risk to themselves to help Jillian. ...What? Why were they in any danger to begin with if they could just withdraw like that?

More to come as I think on things.
They just didn't have enough move left to go back the way they came. They had enough move to reach the column if they survived punching through the strongest Dwagon stack though, and the A Dwagons were the same distance away.

Lord_Butters_I
2009-01-16, 02:25 AM
Vinny and Ansom have higher move then the siege and infantry units in the stack. Vinny admits that they have some move left, too lazy to find a strip.

DevilDan
2009-01-16, 02:32 AM
Vinny and Ansom have higher move then the siege and infantry units in the stack. Vinny admits that they have some move left, too lazy to find a strip.

Plus, those "forest-enabled" units were only of use against dwagons if they were in a forest hex, as opposed to flying units like Vinny and Ansom on his carpet.

SteveMB
2009-01-16, 06:41 AM
They just didn't have enough move left to go back the way they came. They had enough move to reach the column if they survived punching through the strongest Dwagon stack though, and the A Dwagons were the same distance away.

Reconstructing the terrain (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Parson%27s_Siege_Raids) from Stanley's tactical table displays and Ansom's map, it is evident that Ansom and Vinny had exactly three move -- two wouldn't have gotten them back to the column; four would have let them punch through one of the weaker five-dwagon hexes. Three move also turns out to be exactly enough to reach the lake hex where the wounded dwagons actually were.

DevilDan
2009-01-16, 11:52 AM
Reconstructing the terrain (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Parson%27s_Siege_Raids) from Stanley's tactical table displays and Ansom's map, it is evident that Ansom and Vinny had exactly three move -- two wouldn't have gotten them back to the column; four would have let them punch through one of the weaker five-dwagon hexes. Three move also turns out to be exactly enough to reach the lake hex where the wounded dwagons actually were.

I always thought that it was more a matter, possibly, of where they could make a stand. They had a bunch of woodsy elves and gumps, so they needed to end turn on a forest hex in order to have a chance to defend themselves.

dr pepper
2009-01-16, 03:57 PM
BTW: are there different gumps for different terrains, or just forest gumps?

slayerx
2009-01-16, 05:24 PM
Ansom, Vinny and the forest units all had a different amount of move

Presumably, the forest units likely ran out of move by the time they made it to the center where as Vinny and Ansom still had some move to spare... because this, only Ansom and Vinny could escape going through the 5 dwagon hex, while the forest units would have to be left behind...

Had Ansom withdrawn in any other direction, it would have left him stranded in the field where he would be dwagon chow the next turn... he needed to either join with the coulmn or stay with the forest units for his own safety... though joining jillian in the fight with the dwagons is what he ended up doing, though it was likely a risky move... If the dwagons that formed the circle had attacked them the following turn instead of being called back by Stanely, Ansom might not have made it with just him, vinny, Jillian, the archons and the gwiffens

Tubercular Ox
2009-01-17, 12:41 AM
As mentioned, he had the move to escape scot free because Jillian was behind the donut; they just left the way they came in.

As far as the decision, however, I have a completely different outlook. I think the keys are in the discussion of their options. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0068.html) In panel 3, Ansom says, "Leaving our forest units here in the dwagon's nest," and in the lower left panel, he says, "He wouldn't take those odds. He'd go croak the siege."

My take on the first comment is that it is not an altruistic love-my-troops comment. When he says "our Forest units," he means a significant number: he'd lose a lot of strategic flexibility because of terrain restrictions. I mean, sure, there don't seem to be many in the hex, but he was expecting 19 dwagons. Wounded, but dwagons. Without Archons, without gwiffons, without whatever bonus Jillian can provide. And the croak the siege comment -- that's even worse than losing the forest units.

So why does he go rescue Jillian? Well, it saves the siege. Even punching out of the hex couldn't do that. Also, it leaves all the dwagons warlordless. Maybe the forest units would have stood a better chance then? Of course, page 73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0079.html) makes it clear that he's expecting tomorrow to be a very bad day, so clearly his "Must rescue Jillian" button getting pressed is involved.

And then, of course, the plot smiled upon him and he and his forest units were saved by Stanley's recalling the dwagons.

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-20, 04:22 PM
Here's what I don't get: why was the whole donut-of-dwagons even necessary? Couldn't you just stick the 19 wounded "A" Dwagons in the same lake hex as the 27 unwounded "B" Dwagons and dare Ansom's fliers to try to attack it?

All the evidence points to some kind of tactical combat that allows the combatants (even the defender of the hex) to selectively target/engage in units from the other side, e.g.:

"Divert...Buy me some time to solo the blue"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0012.html

"We're gonna screen for Caesar, to get him a shot at Stanley"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0125.html

With this in mind, couldn't Parson just have the unwounded "B" dwagons defend the wounded "A" dwagons (and warlords) during any potential tactical combat over the lake hex?

It seems to me this would have given Parson the best chance of having enough dwagons and warlords left to hit the remaining siege on the next turn.

Am I missing something?

ZeroNumerous
2009-01-20, 04:40 PM
It seems to me this would have given Parson the best chance of having enough dwagons and warlords left to hit the remaining siege on the next turn.

Am I missing something?

As far as I recall: Stacks without Leaders cannot selectively engage. The wounded dwagons were leaderless.

Justyn
2009-01-20, 04:49 PM
BTW: are there different gumps for different terrains, or just forest gumps?

Maybe, but it would lose the pun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Gump).

DevilDan
2009-01-20, 04:51 PM
Here's what I don't get: why was the whole donut-of-dwagons even necessary? Couldn't you just stick the 19 wounded "A" Dwagons in the same lake hex as the 27 unwounded "B" Dwagons and dare Ansom's fliers to try to attack it?

Because then Ansom would have either not attacked--and figured out some way of defending his column and his remaining siege units--or would have taken enough units to take the dwagons on in a fair fight.

The point of the donut was to get Ansom to commit a force that was strong enough to take on the wounded "A" dwagons in the forest. During GK's turn, Ansom would then have only an inadequate force with which to face the healed "A" dwagons along with the rest of the donut dwagons.

SteveMB
2009-01-20, 05:04 PM
As far as I recall: Stacks without Leaders cannot selectively engage. The wounded dwagons were leaderless.

No; the wounded dwagons had the three uncroaked warlords with them. That's why they were able to do the hit-and-run selective targeting of siege units -- if they'd been leaderless, they would have been forced to remain engaged until the battle ended with all units on one side croaked or captured. (Ansom's side didn't have that choice, leaders or no leaders; it was Stanley's turn, so Ansom's units were stuck in whatever hex they were in at the moment.)

Getting back to the original question:


Here's what I don't get: why was the whole donut-of-dwagons even necessary? Couldn't you just stick the 19 wounded "A" Dwagons in the same lake hex as the 27 unwounded "B" Dwagons and dare Ansom's fliers to try to attack it?

We don't know the full details about how selective targeting works when there are warlords on both sides. Judging from the examples we've seen so far (Jillian attacking the wounded dwagons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html) and Caesar attacking Stanley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0125.html)), a properly supported attacker can force an engagement against a specific defender target ("Open the front door and let me at the warlord!" and "We gotta screen for Caesar, to get him a shot at Stanley."). So, putting all the dwagons in the same hex risks having the enemy bypass the healthy dwagons (throwing expendable units at them to screen) to get at the wounded ones. With the donut, the enemy has to at least "punch through" a full hex occupied by healthy dwagons, which is presumably more difficult.

Also, there may be a stacking limit involved; we know nothing there other than that Tarfu's "max stack" comment implies some sort of upper limit to stack size.

(In any case, Parson's plan fundamentally shifted after learning that Ansom didn't have all-seeing-eye intel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0053.html). At that point, the donut became a trap rather than a defense. However, that's a separate issue from why he came up with the donut plan to begin with.)

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-20, 06:20 PM
We don't know the full details about how selective targeting works when there are warlords on both sides. Judging from the examples we've seen so far (Jillian attacking the wounded dwagons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html) and Caesar attacking Stanley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0125.html)), a properly supported attacker can force an engagement against a specific defender target ("Open the front door and let me at the warlord!" and "We gotta screen for Caesar, to get him a shot at Stanley."). So, putting all the dwagons in the same hex risks having the enemy bypass the healthy dwagons (throwing expendable units at them to screen) to get at the wounded ones.

The 2nd example is technically the defender forcing an engagement against the attacker (since it was GK's turn and Stanley's stack was entering the hex occupied by Caesar & co.) This is why I wonder if Parson could have just stuck all the dwagons in the lake hex and have the unwounded ones force an engagement on the attackers. The only reason this might not work is if you need a warlord in each stack you want to use to force an engagement -- but that seems a little unlikely based on the evidence: Jillian telling the orlies to divert the other dwagons so she can solo the Blue, Vinny suggesting they could throw bats in the face of dwagons so they could escape the donut...in both cases, either those units doing the diversion/engagement are unled, or every unit in a single led stack can independently engage different enemy units/stacks, which also seems a bit odd (although it would make that max stack size come into play)

Godskook
2009-01-20, 08:12 PM
It seems to me this would have given Parson the best chance of having enough dwagons and warlords left to hit the remaining siege on the next turn.

Am I missing something?

Here's a thought, actually a couple. Ansom speaks of the 'freshness' of his gumps(apparently, no tupperware). Taking on the stronger hexes might've proved too difficult for Ansom's group to then face the wounded dwagons and warlords. Parson's expectations of this setup, pre-scout info, might've been:

possibility (a): Ansom chooses near strong hex, kills 5 dwagons, lacks the manpower to kill the wounded without excessive loss of life(read: his own and/or Vinnie's). Ansom's choice now is irrevelant because Parson has him owned(either Ansom retreats, leaving the dwagons to heal, or attacks only to get croaked before his next turn).
------------To support, note that Ansom/Vinny do not consider fighting their way to freedom with the forest units, only flight.

possibility (b): Ansom chooses weak hex, gets in and croaks everything. Parson now has the option to croak a poorly defended Ansom. Checkmate.

Of course, Parson might not have figured out the multiplier system yet. That seems to be key info in us believing that other options could've been better.

After the scouting info, it of course turned into a feint, and Parson is only doing it to bait Ansom.