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Lappy9000
2009-01-17, 11:44 PM
Well, I'm making this sorcerer, see, and I decided to have a particular goal with it: versatility. With the limited spell selection that sorcerer's get, I want to be able to do as much with them as possible. Unfortunately, I then realized I'm not skilled with planning arcane spells.

So, using only core, what's the most flexible set of spells that I can get for a 12th-level sorcerer? And please, I'd rather it if nobody started with the "Just play a wizard" deal. I'm trying to beat every situation with my spells, not have a spell for every situation.

By level 12, the spells known would be: 9/5/5/4/3/2/1

Thanks!

Grail
2009-01-17, 11:47 PM
Without spending too much time, take 0 combat spells. Want to blast something? Get a stick. That way you can save your precious slots for other things.

I'd try and work out the kind of things you want your Swiss Army knife to do. Pick tasks you want completed and pick spells that do it.

Lappy9000
2009-01-17, 11:50 PM
Without spending too much time, take 0 combat spells. Want to blast something? Get a stick. That way you can save your precious slots for other things.

I'd try and work out the kind of things you want your Swiss Army knife to do. Pick tasks you want completed and pick spells that do it.
Thanks, that's a good strategy. I think I'll write down some of the most useful ones, and keep picking at them until only the most flexible are left. I just feel overwhelmed, 'cause there are a lot of spells :smalleek:

TylerFerretLord
2009-01-17, 11:53 PM
^ Regarding that, you could take greater shadow evocation and be able to use most of the blasty spells for the cost of one spell known. Still, there's a better use for the spell known than that I would think(not to mention that you don't have any level 8 spell knowns).

Lappy9000
2009-01-17, 11:56 PM
^ Regarding that, you could take greater shadow evocation and be able to use most of the blasty spells for the cost of one spell known. Still, there's a better use for the spell known than that I would think(not to mention that you don't have any level 8 spell knowns).
Hmm...good suggestion, but the only time I'd need blasty spells would be when I really need to blast something. Say, the dire megaraptor charging me in an attempt to gnaw my face off. Shadow Evocation is just a little too unreliable.

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 12:05 AM
0 level:
prestidigitation
detect magic
mending
light
message
acid splash
resistance
detect poison
read magic
1st level:
identify
magic missile
feather fall
comprehend languige
unseen servent
2nd level:
invisibility
melf's acid arrow
glitterdust
summon monster 2
knock
3rd level:
shrink item
fireball
dispel magic
fly
explosive runes
4th level:
remove curse
contagion
stone shape
summon monster 4
5th level:
wall of stone
permancy
cloudkill
6th level:
contingency
disintegrate
7th level:
teleport greater

arguskos
2009-01-18, 12:09 AM
Actually, instead of taking NO combat spells, I suggest you take just one: Scorching Ray. At level 12, it's doing a decent 12d6 in three rays (each 4d6). No save, ranged touch, it's excellent bang for your buck, and with Energy Substitution (sonic) it's a great way to blast stuff you can't just neutralize. Just my $.02

As for other spells, here's some core-only suggestions (not all spell levels are fully accounted for, that's because I like blasty spells XD):
0- Whatever. Your pick. I like Presdigitation, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, and Open/Close.

1- Grease, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Tenser's Floating Disk
Explanation: MA is good defense that lasts all day. Ray is nice to screw fighty types. Grease needs no introduction. Disk, though, is great. It's a pack mule that isn't the monk, it can cart people out of dungeons if they get crippled and can't be healed, it's just something fun people will look at you and go "what?" I love it.

2- Scorching Ray, Web, Alter Self, Glitterdust
Explanation: uh, yeah. These are pretty self-explanatory. Ray blasts stuff, Web stops stuff, Alter Self let's you smash stuff, and Glitterdust negates stuff.

3- Haste, Slow, Major Image, Hold Person
Explanation: Haste just rocks. Slow is a great area debuff. Major Image allows all flavors of illusory fun (use it on golems and laugh). Hold Person is a personal favorite. I enjoy casting it on fighty types, and letting the crew slice and dice.

4- Enervation, Evard's Black Tentacles, Stone Shape
Explanation: Honestly, these are just MY favorite picks. Level 4 has like 17 bajillion great spells, like the walls, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, Polymorph, whatever. Enervation though, is the only one I'd REALLY recommend you keep at all times, since it's just so fun as a sorcerer to spam Enervation into the BBEG's face.

5- Telekinesis
Explanation: Level 5 has a bunch of stuff that my wizards love, but I'm not sure for sorcerers, so I just suggested the most versatile spell I could. Telekinesis' applications are nearly endless. Take it, you won't be disappointed.

6- Wall of Iron
Explanation: This was a close tie between the wall and Disintegrate for most useful. I like the Zap Ray personally, but the Wall can be better (divide enemies with it, crush someone, make some quick and easy cash, the uses are endless).

Like I said, just my picks. Hope this was useful (or at least entertaining).

Lappy9000
2009-01-18, 12:20 AM
Those are all pretty good. I didn't even think to use Slow as an area of effect spell.

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 12:20 AM
well no blasty huh? well my suggestion pales then. I personaly say shrink item is a must have. it lets you shrink almost anything and has the option to make the shrunken item clothlike in composition. sure the guards wont let the rogue in with a dagger but a small cloth charm in the shape of a dagger? why whats to worry about that is until the rogue say a word and it becomes a real one.

also maggic missile all the way even with the no blasty rule take it. a always hit spell is nothing to laugh at.

for feats take all the metamagic because being a sorc you can apply on the fly and it changes the level of spells so if you run out of spells for one level like 1 and need a spell from there you can just meta it.

also permancy because it allows fun things like making shrink item permant and other stuff like invisibility

Glimbur
2009-01-18, 12:21 AM
Take illusions. Sure, there are drawbacks, but they're so much more flexible than most other spells.

Lappy9000
2009-01-18, 12:22 AM
well no blasty huh? well my suggestion pales then. I personaly say shrink item is a must have. it lets you shrink almost anything and has the option to make the shrunken item clothlike in composition. sure the guards wont let the rogue in with a dagger but a small cloth charm in the shape of a dagger? why whats to worry about that is until the rogue say a word and it becomes a real one.

also maggic missile all the way even with the no blasty rule take it. a always hit spell is nothing to laugh at.

for feats take all the metamagic because being a sorc you can apply on the fly and it changes the level of spells so if you run out of spells for one level like 1 and need a spell from there you can just meta it.

also permancy because it allows fun things like making shrink item permant and other stuff like invisibility
No, no, blasty is definitely okay. I'm just not going for the "blast with 8 different evocation and 2 conjuration spells" sorcerer. Magic Missile in itself, with its force effects (and scaling) is a biggee.

Metamagic feats on application spells is also a great idea.

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 12:24 AM
nothing else like a maximized magic missile to get you out of a jam!:smallbiggrin:

FinalJustice
2009-01-18, 12:25 AM
From the top of my head, I'll try to give some non-core advice, mostly stuff I use when I build sorcerers.

1-
Benign Transposition (SpC) - Exchange places with an ally, with medium range. Good to put the meatshield in range, to get people out of grapples and bad situations (if you are one to put yourself in danger). Have a high mobile familiar and you can use on it too have a low level personal Dim Door.

Nerveskitter (SpC, I guess) - Immediate action, +5 on initiative. The higher the level, more important is to go first.

2-
Create Magic Tattoo (SpC) - For 100 gp a pop, 24 hr buffs like +2 on attack rols and +1 on CL. Gotta have craft skill too, but that's easy to have.

Heroics (SpC) - 10 min/level give one a bonus fighter feat. Almost anyone can benefit of a feat.

Wings of Cover (RoD) - Immediate cover from one attack. Can save your butt.

3-
Ray of Dizziness (SpC) - No save Slow, mind affecting though. Make dragons cry.

4-
Celerity (PHB II) - Cheesey, but the solution to almost everything.

Wings of Flurry (RoD) - Cheesey part 2. Uncapped 1d6/Level force damage in a burst, those who fail reflexes are also dazed. It has SR though. Nevertheless, the built in save or suck and the uncapped damage assures that you can take it and have your blasty needs covered for the rest of your life.

Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC) - Immediate Cha as luck to saves plus effects like evasion, or temporary hit points. Make judicious use, and you are a step closer of batman immortality.

5-
Arcane Fusion (CMage, I guess) - Cast one 1st level and one 4th level you know in succession, spending just a 5th level slot. Good to enhance your spell output.

6 -
Freezing Fog (Don't remember) - Solid Fog + Grease + 1d6 Cold Damage. Make golems cry.


Edit: Removed first paragraph due to uber ninja'd.
Edit #2: Now I've seen the 'core only'. Sue me. =P

Tengu_temp
2009-01-18, 12:26 AM
I know this is not the OP asks for, but it's related:

Take two levels in chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1). As your second level spell, choose Extra Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Spell,all). You get to know one extra spell, which you can swap for another spell every morning - it should greatly boost your versatility! Now, the drawback is that slowing your caster progression by 2 levels hurts like hell... are there any other floating feat slots you can obtain without losing caster levels, I wonder...

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 12:28 AM
only core he said so what does he get anything but core!

Lappy9000
2009-01-18, 12:31 AM
Edit #2: Now I've seen the 'core only'. Sue me. =PMeh, it's fine. It'll give some ideas for what to look for in a good spell list. Core is most helpful, but thanks anyway :smallsmile:

Brett Wong
2009-01-18, 12:59 AM
9/5/5/4/3/2/1 core only?
What I would take off the top of my head,
Cantrips:
Prestidigitation
Message
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Mending
Open/Close
Arcane Mark

1st level:
Identify
Disguise Self
Feather Fall
Comprehend Language
Unseen Servant
2nd level:
Invisibility
Locate Object
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Knock
3rd level:
Shrink Item
Tongues
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Fly
Gaseous Form
4th level:
Resilient Sphere
Hallucinatory Terrain
Reduce Person, Mass
Solid Fog
5th level:
Wall of Stone
Waves of Fatigue
Teleport
6th level:
Legend Lore
Disintegrate
7th level:
Control Weather

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-18, 01:07 AM
Some guidelines:

Nothing with expensive Material components. If you use it enough to make it worth blowing a spell known, you're going to be sapping your bank account too heavily and should demand compensation from your party. This includes Identify, Stoneskin, True Sight, and Forcecage.

Greater Shadow Evocation is useful, but not for blasting. It can be used to cast Forcecage without blowing over a grand in spell components, and gives you access to Contingency and Force Wall as well.

Other good spells:

Cloudkill. No SR, and even if they make their save, they're still at LEAST taking Con damage. Find a way to immobilize opponent, and this WILL eventually kill it, as long as it's not immune to poison or Con damage.

Sold Fog. No save, No SR, you're moving 5', or making a standard action, take your pick. Stay put so our guys can rip your buddies up and save you for last.

Haste. Seriously, one extra attack for your tank is probably going to out-damage any blast spell in Core.

Slow. Similarily, preventing opponents from making full attacks is a good thing. This is a Will save, but *NOT* Mind Affecting. This even works on constructs and undead. Who have crappy Will saves.

Resilient Sphere. A rare Reflex save or Lose. Can also be used defensively to protect against charging Frenzied Berzerkers. As a force effect, it's flat immune to physical damage of any kind.

Arcane Sight. Who needs Detect magic? You're a walking magical detection system. Handy to spot cursed items.

Disintegrate. Probably the most useful all-round purpose 'kill that' spell. One that specifically works on even golems.

Feeblemind. Because arcane casters are probably the most dangerous thing you can run up against, and they'll have a -4 penalty on the save.

Invisibility, Greater. Not for personal use, to put on the party's rogue, so he can do lots of sneak attack damage. Will almost certainly out-damage any damage spell you can cast.

Mirror Image. Best. Defense. Spell. EVAR! Displacement is a 50% miss chance. This spell is an 87.5% miss chance. With 8 images, you're likely NOT getting hit any time soon. As a 2nd level spell.

Dimension Door. Get out of trouble card. Does NOT have any Somatic components, so you can even cast it while grappled.

Black Tentacles. Very good anti-rogue spell and even surprisingly useful against casters. Also notice lack of SR. Give those Mind Flayers a taste of their own medicine. Also handy at Anime conventions.

Rope Trick. Make sure your sleep remains undisturbed. This is basically your golden 'refresh all spells' spell. When you run low, Rope Trick and refresh without getting ambushed.

FinalJustice
2009-01-18, 01:41 AM
Hear ShneekeyTheLost, he's wise!

Some other thoughts:

When I play a spellcaster, I never leave home without Resilient Sphere. Never. No, not even then.

I personally don't agree with Sorcerers getting Identify. The time it takes assures you won't be getting to much use of it inside dungeons, and since it's a first level spell, outside dungeons you can probably pay someone to cast it, which shoudn't be expensive.

Do mind that DimDoor still has a vocal component. If your foe pins you, he can prevent you from talking. Silent spell might be a good idea.

Another good advice, I guess from Solo's Sorcerer Guide (too lazy to find the link to this thread, search function is you friend =P), is the Heighter Spell metamagic feat. With it, you can pick your favorite Reflex, Will and Fort save or suck/die and just heighten then as needed, to boost the DC. This frees up slots to utility.

Finally, if you are not allergic to cheese, the polymorph line is just versatility-in-a-can. Use with moderation, though, because it tends to anger DMs.

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 01:47 AM
metamagic is your friend collect ones for each level adjustment! when you run out of 1st level spells dont be caught off guard falling off a cliff just meta you feather fall up to a level where you do have open slots. you are a sorc and can apply metamagic on the fly and have a very limiting number of spell per a day. dont be caught in freefall use metamagic!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-18, 01:54 AM
metamagic is your friend collect ones for each level adjustment! when you run out of 1st level spells dont be caught off guard falling off a cliff just meta you feather fall up to a level where you do have open slots. you are a sorc and can apply metamagic on the fly and have a very limiting number of spell per a day. dont be caught in freefall use metamagic!

Metamagic is your friend, but not for the reason you specified. You can cast a 1st level spell in a 2nd level slot if you're out of 1st level spells without needing metamagic (you just waste the extra 'power'), but attempting to Metamagic it, without proper precautions (which are unavailable in Core) turn it from a Swift action into a Full Round action, meaning you probably go Splat before you can get it off.

Metamagic IS very valuable for casting 'on the fly'. With things like Empower for Enervation, you can crank out (1d4+1)*1.5 negative levels, which is pretty heinous. Still and Silent spell are also good choices to be able to cast while grappled/silenced. Empower isn't as useful as many people make it out to be, except in rare cases like Enervation. Quicken is unavailable to you in Core. Heighten is good if you NEED a lower level spell to land, and don't mind blowing a higher level spell slot.

Speaking of which, Enervation is an extremely powerful 4th level spell. No save, RTA to drop negative levels, which drops all saves, BAB, and since you're a Sorcerer, you can spam it if you need to and kill something through negative levels.

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 02:04 AM
and how fast do you fall? if your taking a round to fall only your out of luck but if your taking long which is when you really need feather fall it would work and all nice over it.

Fri
2009-01-18, 02:10 AM
Stupendeous Sorcerer Stratagem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801)

skip to the 'spells' part, though that guide is still infinitely useful.

And, though this is for wizard, it got a very useful spell analysis

Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085)

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 02:53 AM
Yea, definitely yes on the Solid Fog. Its like a 2 round no save, no SR, remove target from combat. Say you are fighting 2 big giants. Solid Fog completely removes one from the fight, if you position it just right, so that it has to either move through the cloud slowly, or move out the back of it. The bigger the foe, the harder it sucks to be them, because you don't regain full movement till you are all the way out of the coud. Now you have plenty of time to dispatch his friend while you wait for the clouded guy to get out of it, right into the waiting arms of your party.

Also good for blocking Line of Sight and Line of Effect. I was just playing in a game where I was getting sniped from above by a creature. Every time it would move and try to shoot, my sorcerer's readied action would block it from firing. Its a close range spell, so I couldn't fog the sniper, but I bought the team a couple rounds to heal and prepare to take the fight arial.

Great sorc spell, and even still very effective at high levels. Most high level monsters don't pack Freedom of Movement, the only counter, which makes it brutal. Even the Tarrasque can't get out of a Solid Fog very easily.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-18, 11:53 AM
The only downside to Solid Fog is that it grants concealment (and total concealment if you get too far in), which can make it troublesome. Basically, if they don't come out of it, you'll need to go in after it, which can get painful if you end up with unexpected tactics.

Limos
2009-01-18, 12:21 PM
You should invest in Wands, whether creating them yourself or buying them. With a wand you can cast your various blasty spells without using up spell slots.

Flickerdart
2009-01-18, 12:22 PM
The only downside to Solid Fog is that it grants concealment (and total concealment if you get too far in), which can make it troublesome. Basically, if they don't come out of it, you'll need to go in after it, which can get painful if you end up with unexpected tactics.
No, you just drop a Cloudkill into it and wait.

ericgrau
2009-01-18, 12:55 PM
One thing regarding spell lists posted so far: Never ever put low level utility spells on your list, whether you're a wizard or sorc. They come up too infrequently. Use cheap scrolls instead. That's the real way to get utility versatility with either class.

Next spells. Avoid similar/redundant spells. You'll probably want lots of (different) battlefield control spells: i.e., at least 1 barrier, at least one AoE save-or-suck, etc. Get multiple uber non +X buffs like haste and greater invisibility. Note that invisibility has a far longer duration, so you might want both even though on the surface they seem similar. Add on a good single target direct damage spell like scorching ray, a good AoE damage spell like fireball or lightning bolt. Maybe a single target save-or-lose, though you can often heighten an AoE save-or-suck to do even better. You have a ton of spell slots as a sorc, so consider using your low level slots for long duration buffs like protection from energy, heroism, greater magic weapon, etc. You'll still have plenty of mid-high level slots for combat. Avoid short duration +X buffs unless you can reliably count on more than 1 buffing round; even then I'd only focus on 1 or maaaybe 2 to be the one you use, and only after you cast the better non +X buffs.

Spontaneous metamagic is a sorc's friend. Like heighten, empower and extend spell. Consider lesser metamagic rods instead if you only need the feat for low level spells.

Otherwise the strat for item selection and other things is pretty similar to a wizard.

I played a sorc that worked out extremely well because of his extreme versatility. Much more than the party wizard in fact. As long as you can get a good spell list that never needs changing, you'll be ahead of the game because sorcs have more spells per day and more spells known. i.e., known in your head, right now, not "known" in a book that you can't access for 8 hours. As the day progresses the sorc has even more options, b/c the wizard loses spells known and the sorc doesn't. That's the key to uber sorc versatility. Here's the spell list I used:



Level Name
0 Message
Read Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Open/Close
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Prestidigitation
1 Mage Armor
Shield
Feather Fall
Alarm
Benign Transportation (SC)
2 False Life*
Invisibility
Melf’s Acid Arrow ^
Glitterdust*
Baleful Transportation (SC) ^
3 Invisibility Sphere ^
Shrink Item (on a rotating cycle so several items always affected)
Fireball
Protection from Energy
4 Dimension Door
Solid Fog*
Otiluke’s Resilent Sphere*
Greater Invisibility*
5 Stoneskin*
Wall of Stone*
Wall of Force
6 Mass Bear’s Endurance
Veil
7 Brilliant Aura* (SC)
^ = This is one of the few spells that didn't turn out to be that useful.
Practically every single spell besides those three saw frequent use.
I also regret not having dispel magic, especially to remove my on solid
fogs (they're not dismissable). Haste is missing b/c the party
wizard liked to cast it.
* = Favorites. You can burn higher level spells known/per day to fuel
4th level slots if needed, heh :smallbiggrin:. And, yes, stoneskin is a
4th level spell.

He had a ton of cheap utility scrolls as well. About every session I
used 1 of those, and it was always completely different and
unpredictable. Money well spent: It didn't take much gp and he was
always prepared for the strangest things.

Saph
2009-01-18, 01:09 PM
The only downside to Solid Fog is that it grants concealment (and total concealment if you get too far in), which can make it troublesome. Basically, if they don't come out of it, you'll need to go in after it, which can get painful if you end up with unexpected tactics.

I actually quite like it when enemies use Solid Fog. I usually find that with good tactics you can make it work to your advantage.

In the final battle of our World's Largest Dungeon campaign a high-level enemy caster dropped an Acid Fog on my druid. Instead of moving out of it I cast Resist Energy, took a form that had blindsense, then started summoning monsters from within the cover. In the end the enemy caster was forced to spend an action to dispel it just so her minions could get to me. The DM's comment at the end was "Acid Fog is completely useless!", which I found quite satisfying for some reason. :)

- Saph

ericgrau
2009-01-18, 01:21 PM
The only downside to Solid Fog is that it grants concealment (and total concealment if you get too far in), which can make it troublesome. Basically, if they don't come out of it, you'll need to go in after it, which can get painful if you end up with unexpected tactics.

The point of this spell and other barrier spells are to divide and conquer. That's why they were my posted char's favorites. If he doesn't want to come out, all the better. Pick off his friends, then dispel the fog and gang him. Just play smart and don't solid fog caster-styles like saph's :smallbiggrin:. Besides the 1000 spells still usable within the fog, there's ~5 different ways for a caster to beat it directly.

It also helped that my party had a ton of direct damage to do the picking off; kinda like Vaarsuvius & Belkar. Magnifying those two was my best option by far, especially since I was lower level.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 01:53 PM
One single fire spell will dispel a Solid Fog, plus burninate anything on the inside. Thus, dropping a Flame Strike or Fireball on a baddy that won't come out of a Solid Fog will allow you to get at it.

And the whole point of the Solid Fog is normally to remove a troublesome melee foe from the combat for a while, while you dispatch his friends. If he just wants to hide in the cloud, then its more than served its purpose. You shouldn't cast SF on something you want to attack, that doesn't serve much purpose. Its a croud control, not a disable.

Its still very effective against just about every melee type foe, almost every ranged (archery or whatever) character, most offensive casters, and even isolating defensive casters from the people they are supposed to be defending. In WoW terms, its effectively "sheeping the healer", or whatever.

Another really dirty trick is a tough one, and pretty circumstantial, but when you see it, its HILLARIOUS! The trick involves most dragons and things like Wyverns and Manticores. (EX) flyers with average manevuerability or good maneuverability w/o the Hover feat. You cast a Solid Fog on them, just above and behind them, so that no matter what, they have to move at least 2 squares to get out of it. Since they can't turn around (need certain amount of forward movement to turn, and movement is limited to 5') and can't really move forward, they will stall. Stalled foes fall fast, I dunno the speed off the top of my head, but they can get over 200' in a round. There is a reflex save to pull up, but only if they are still falling after the stall. Can't pull up if they hit the ground first. Congrats...you've just done 20d6 to a dragon, no save, no SR. You've also grounded it, allowing your more land based friends to swarm it and kill it to death.

ericgrau
2009-01-18, 09:25 PM
^ 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet the next. Not quite 20d6, but still very clever. And I think the DM should allow it, since other movement hampering effects do the same to flyers. I checked the SRD to make sure, and it usually checks out. It says if he stalls he can try to end his move on the ground. If not he takes falling damage. If he falls more than 150 feet and makes a DC 20 reflex save, he can recover. And good manuevarability lets you hover without any feat.

About fire removing solid fog: I'm 99% certain this is how it was at one point, since fire was the most common way we removed my solid fog after combat. The party archmage had a fire mephit familiar. But I don't see it in the SRD or my (replaced) PHB anymore. IIRC solid fog referenced fog cloud which referenced obscuring mist which can be removed with fire. Now fog cloud doesn't reference obscuring mist anymore. Does the fire removal still apply to solid fog?

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 09:35 PM
Thanks, I thought of that myself in a fight against a wyvern, which does have an ~average fly mobility. That was the 2nd most damage my wizard has ever done with a 4th level spell. (the most damage involved a Dimension Door and 2 high level Power Attacking Fighters who didn't have Pounce).

And as for Fog Cloud not referencing Obscuring Mist anymore...like Potions of Enlarge Person, I'd chalk it up as a copy/paste error more than anything else. I'd still allow it! :P

zakk2to2
2009-01-18, 09:50 PM
in races of dragons there is a feat called versatile spellcaster
it lets you use 2 spells slots of the same level to cast a spell a level higher.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-19, 09:38 AM
This spell functions like fog cloud, but in addition to obscuring sight, the solid fog is so thick that any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet, regardless of its normal speed, and it takes a -2 penalty on all melee attack and melee damage rolls. The vapors prevent effective ranged weapon attacks (except for magic rays and the like). A creature or object that falls into solid fog is slowed, so that each 10 feet of vapor that it passes through reduces falling damage by 1d6. A creature canít take a 5-foot step while in solid fog.

However, unlike normal fog, only a severe wind (31+ mph) disperses these vapors, and it does so in 1 round.

No, a Fireball cannot disperse a Solid Fog.

Thurbane
2009-01-19, 01:52 PM
Core only? Here's my take:

- Summon Monster VI

- Shadow Evocation
- Teleport

- Animate Dead
- Charm Monster
- Polymorph

- Fly
- Gaseous Form
- Major Image
- Shrink Item

- Arcane Lock
- Command Undead
- Detect Thoughts
- Invisibility
- Knock

- Enlarge Person
- Floating Disk
- Mount
- Reduce Person
- Unseen Servant

- Acid Splash
- Dancing Lights
- Detect Magic
- Detect Poison
- Mending
- Message
- Prestidigitation
- Read Magic
- Touch of Fatigue

...I'd be hard pressed to think of a (level appropriate) situation you couldn't overcome with that selection. For direct damage, buffs and debuffs, load up on wands, scrolls and (if allowed) runestaves...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-19, 02:27 PM
Core only? Here's my take:

- Summon Monster VI This is not a bad choice, although I'd have gone with Disintegrate, personally. Greater Dispel Magic is also a sound choice at this level.


- Shadow Evocation
- Teleport Okay, I can see your point, but Shadow Evocation lets your opponent get both a Will AND (in most cases) a Ref save, making it less useful than one might think. Overland Flight is a good alternative. If they can't hit you, you can't get hurt. Feeblemind is specifically targeted for other arcane casters, which are your biggest danger at this point. Baleful Polymorph is a Fort Save or Die effect. Any of these three would be a better choice than Shadow Evocation.

Teleport, however, is an excellent choice for party mobility.


- Animate Dead Any spell that requires expensive components are going to drain your bank account to make it worth having as a Known Spell. Try something else.

Very handy spell, I approve
[quote]- Polymorph This can border on cheese very quickly.

I'd replace Animate Dead with Enervation, which is one of the most useful spells in the game. You also forgot Dimension Door, which doesn't have somatic components, so it can get you out of a tight spot.


- Fly Okay, but if you take Overland Flight, becomes obsolete.

- Gaseous Form No. Gaseous Form negates somatic and verbal components. It's not worth it.

- Major Image Fun, but unless that's your shtick, probably not a good idea

- Shrink Item Handy spell, I guess, but there are others at this level.

There is a distinct lack of both Haste AND Slow in your spell list. This is a serious misjudgement. Furthermore, Greater Magic Weapon is also a great boon to your party. Greater Invisibility is also probably more useful than Major Image, because you can cast it on the party rogue so he can get sneak attacks. Stinking Cloud is also another spell you missed, which is a very good fort save or screwed battlefield control spell. You also don't have Dispel Magic.


- Alter Self Cheesy, but versitile.

- Arcane Lock[quote] No. This spell is so rarely used, it is not worth a spell known
[quote]- Command Undead Leave this to the Cleric.

- Detect Thoughts Occasionally useful, but rarely worth a spell known

- Knock No. Absolutely NOT worth a spell known. Wand it, if you must, but never learn it.

You forgot the single most powerful 2nd level defensive spell: Mirror Image.
You forgot the single most powerful 2nd level utility spell: Rope Trick
You also forgot Glitterdust to blind opponents and find invisible foes.
This is also the level you can choose between Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray
Web is a good 2nd level spell that is effective even when saved and doesn't allow SR


- Enlarge Person Very good, one of the best 1st level spells out there to cast on your tank

- Floating Disk No. By now, you should have Haversacks, which have better cargo capacity than this.

- Mount No. Unless you're going to do infinite gold cheese by selling it to merchants, this is not worth it.

-Reduce Person sub-optimal, but not completely worthless

- Unseen Servant If you don't have anything else to do, I guess...

You forgot Magic Missile, which is a classic for a reason.
Grease is also another very good no-SR battlefield control spell.
Summon Monster I is good for walking ahead of the party in suspicious areas, as well as setting up flanking opportunities with your rogue.
True Strike. +20 to your next Ray. Doesn't blow Invisibility, either. When that Ray of Enervation absolutely, positively has to hit...



- Acid Splash
- Dancing Lights
- Detect Magic
- Detect Poison
- Mending
- Message
- Prestidigitation
- Read Magic
- Touch of Fatigue

...I'd be hard pressed to think of a (level appropriate) situation you couldn't overcome with that selection. For direct damage, buffs and debuffs, load up on wands, scrolls and (if allowed) runestaves...

No, you don't want to be having to switch between toys in combat. Toys are for 'occasionally useful' situations, not for 'I'll probably be doing this every combat' spells like Haste and Slow and Cloudkill/Stinking Cloud/Feeblemind/Mirror Image/etc...

FinalJustice
2009-01-19, 07:15 PM
I agree. You better use your toys out of combat, where you can switch them without something in facewhooping range waiting for an AoO, and when you will probably have time to replenish/substitute them once they're empty.

If Runestaves are game, I suggesting putting some long duration buffs, the kind you'll only be using once per day, like Overland Flight, Mind Blank, Mage Armor, Greater Resistance. You make better use of them, fill your spells known with spells you'll be using many times a day and, in case of Dispel, you still have 2 charges to rebuff.

(BTW, ALWAYS protect yourself against targeted dispels. Ring of Counterspelling are good for this, Greater are better if non-core is game).

woodenbandman
2009-01-19, 07:17 PM
Alter Self is like a Pwn cannon. You can grant yourself natural armor, natural attacks, and a lot of other stuff.

Haste, Slow, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Shadow X (most likely things will fail a will save), any summoning spell (they give you extra actions, don't'cha know?) any polymorph spell, Scorching Ray...

Core is really good.

With this and a few other spells that I don't know/forget, you can fill the party buffer and debuffer roles. Take suggestion. It's the most powerful social spell ever. That's being the party face, right there. You can do damage with scorching ray, though that's a bit inefficient for most situations. The summoning and battlefield control spells, such as web and grease, will harass the big things that your melee friends are engaging in combat, which will help them do their jobs greatly.

You're pretty versatile with this setup. Shadow Conjuration and its greater counterpart are deadly, as they basically give you most of a school's spells. With these 2 spells, you can pretty much just consider those spells as known and move on with your life, for most situations. Web and glitterdust, among others, still need to go on your spell list.

I've been told that familiars are awesome but I've never quite gotten to thinking about them. Just get one that gives you a bonus to something you do a lot, or convince the DM to allow you to trade it for rapid metamagic (PHB II, it's worth a shot).

Focus on anything that either

A: Gives you more actions, or

B: Takes away actions from them. This is why summoning, haste, slow, being tripped or webbed, and being blinded are powerful effects. The more you can shift the action economy in your favor the more spells you save and thus the longer you can last, and thusly again the more versatile you can be.

FinalJustice
2009-01-19, 07:23 PM
Nono, don't trade your poor familiar. It's to cute useful.

It serves as a scout, doubles your skill checks and can UMD stuff or use spells with the Imbue Familiar spells.

Instead, if we are talking noncore, take Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) and go to town. It reduces by a factor of one the casting times on your spells (as long as they're less then a round, and you cannot suppress such effect, which kinda is a drawback). Then you can use a regular spell as a swift and a metamagicked as a standard action. Get a 0-level-adjustment Metamagic if you may. This can get pretty cheesy when you combine it with the Arcane Fusion line, your Familiar and Celerity. (You can make your output as high as 5 spells/round, making an educated guess)

Leewei
2009-01-19, 07:30 PM
I've been told that familiars are awesome but I've never quite gotten to thinking about them. Just get one that gives you a bonus to something you do a lot, or convince the DM to allow you to trade it for rapid metamagic (PHB II, it's worth a shot).

Seconded! Familiars are quite handy when you 1. trust your DM to not be a dink; and, 2. Create a build focused around using it. Otherwise, they're an XP sinkhole. Gaining the ability to apply Quicken Spell at-will to a fair array of spells is a very nice thing indeed.

Draz74
2009-01-19, 07:44 PM
Solid Fog -- Can you cast it at any height that you want? Or is it subject to the rarely-remembered rules about Conjuration spells needing to rest on a solid surface? Even if you can cast it up in the air (in which case, why the heck is it a cylinder rather than a sphere?), its own prevent-falling-damage clause might give the DM an excuse to keep dragons and manticores alive, even if they're at the "bottom" of the cloud at the moment it is cast.

And Fire spells emphatically do not destroy Solid Fog.


This is not a bad choice, although I'd have gone with Disintegrate, personally. Greater Dispel Magic is also a sound choice at this level.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Although if the OP really wants versatility more than he wants power, he'll need a "Summon Monster" spell somewhere ... they're very flexible.


Okay, I can see your point, but Shadow Evocation lets your opponent get both a Will AND (in most cases) a Ref save, making it less useful than one might think. Overland Flight is a good alternative. If they can't hit you, you can't get hurt. Feeblemind is specifically targeted for other arcane casters, which are your biggest danger at this point. Baleful Polymorph is a Fort Save or Die effect. Any of these three would be a better choice than Shadow Evocation.
Not sure I agree. Use Shadow Evocation for clever things, and it can be quite worthwhile. If you don't learn Scorching Ray, it's nice to be able to still use it occasionally. If you happen to run into a bunch of critters with bad Ref and Will saves, take the opportunity to pretend you know the Fireball spell. You can use Shatter if you happen to need it. And the Big #1 Use of Shadow Evocation -- you're ready to Wind Wall if you run into archers.

Besides, if your campaign is like my last campaign, you'll run into a lot of big tough monsters with great Fort saves, and very few hostile arcane casters. So Baleful Polymorph and Feeblemind may or may not be great choices.


Teleport, however, is an excellent choice for party mobility.
Or personal mobility -- you're a sorcerer, you don't need to hoard spell slots as much as a wizard does. Teleport is definitely a hard option to argue with, except maybe once you're high-enough level for Greater Teleport.


Any spell that requires expensive components are going to drain your bank account to make it worth having as a Known Spell. Try something else.
Very true.


- Charm Monster Very handy spell, I approve[/quote]
Meh, it's all right, but there are enough good 4th level spells that I wouldn't take it. Too many situations are still a mess even if the other party considers you a "friend," and too many monsters are immune to enchantments.


This can border on cheese very quickly.
On the other hand, this means it's also great for your stated objective of versatility. Check with your DM.


I'd replace Animate Dead with Enervation, which is one of the most useful spells in the game. You also forgot Dimension Door, which doesn't have somatic components, so it can get you out of a tight spot.
Enervation is a good suggestion. So is Solid Fog. Dimension Door is good, but you probably don't need it if you have Teleport.


Okay, but if you take Overland Flight, becomes obsolete.
Not true! Unlike Overland Flight, Fly can be used on party members, which arguably makes it much better than Overland Flight for Sorcerers!


No. Gaseous Form negates somatic and verbal components. It's not worth it.
Agreed.


Fun, but unless that's your shtick, probably not a good idea
Depends how creative you are with it. Some players really have the mind of an illusionist, and can think of surprising things to do with Major Image all the time, solving many a problem while seldom provoking a Will save. Although ... even if you're a player with that talent, you might be better served holding out for Persistent Image instead. Don't take either of them unless you intend to use them often.


Handy spell, I guess, but there are others at this level.
Yeah ... find some other way to make objects small when you need to. (Scrolls?)


There is a distinct lack of both Haste AND Slow in your spell list. This is a serious misjudgement. Furthermore, Greater Magic Weapon is also a great boon to your party. Greater Invisibility is also probably more useful than Major Image, because you can cast it on the party rogue so he can get sneak attacks. Stinking Cloud is also another spell you missed, which is a very good fort save or screwed battlefield control spell. You also don't have Dispel Magic.
All true, except I would note that your party Cleric might be able to cover the GMW aspect just fine, if you have a Cleric.


Cheesy, but versitile.
Again, check with your DM. Also, don't bother getting both this and Polymorph.


- Arcane Lock No. This spell is so rarely used, it is not worth a spell known

Command Undead - Leave this to the Cleric.

Occasionally useful, but rarely worth a spell known
Agreed.


No. Absolutely NOT worth a spell known. Wand it, if you must, but never learn it.
True, unless there's no one else in the party who's competent with locks. Even then, unless the campaign is a dungeon crawl, you might be able to get by without this.


You forgot the single most powerful 2nd level defensive spell: Mirror Image.You forgot the single most powerful 2nd level utility spell: Rope Trick
You also forgot Glitterdust to blind opponents and find invisible foes.
This is also the level you can choose between Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray
Web is a good 2nd level spell that is effective even when saved and doesn't allow SR
Mirror Image and Glitterdust are major oversights. Web and Acid Arrow are nice, but not crucial. Rope Trick is ... a one-trick pony. It's very good at protecting your party at night, but personally I think that makes the game less fun. Scorching Ray is ... well, it's the best blasting spell, and you should probably have one good blasting spell. I'd take it unless you have Shadow Evocation.


Very good, one of the best 1st level spells out there to cast on your tank
No. By now, you should have Haversacks, which have better cargo capacity than this.
No. Unless you're going to do infinite gold cheese by selling it to merchants, this is not worth it.
sub-optimal, but not completely worthless
If you don't have anything else to do, I guess...
Agreed.


You forgot Magic Missile, which is a classic for a reason.
Meh. It's cheap to buy as a wand, even with the Caster Level boosted.


Grease is also another very good no-SR battlefield control spell.
In theory, I love Grease. In practice, I find it seldom does all it should, due to flying enemies or the tiny area of effect.


Summon Monster I is good for walking ahead of the party in suspicious areas, as well as setting up flanking opportunities with your rogue.
If you're going to get a Summon, I'd get a higher-level summon.


True Strike. +20 to your next Ray. Doesn't blow Invisibility, either. When that Ray of Enervation absolutely, positively has to hit...
Not usually worth the standard action to cast it. If you plan to do a lot of Invisible sneaking followed by ambush, that's another story.

One spell that was left out is Shadow Conjuration. Want to pretend you know Phantom Steed (another decent consideration on its own!), or Stinking Cloud, or Grease, or plenty of other useful spells? Guess what, you can!

Keld Denar
2009-01-19, 07:52 PM
If you have a good Con score, a familiar can be pretty badass as well. Trollshape is a spell from the polymorph subschool, featured in the PHBII. Swift action cast, drop it on your familiar. BAM, instant wall of not-so-weak meat between you and death. With its regen, and a few hp from you, the little guy goes from zero to hero real quick. Or, if you don't mind your trolliar not being able to move more than 5' from you, you could even share it with him, gaining all of the defensive benefits. Of cource, this loses you the ability to cast spells, but the regen is nice.

EDIT: Teleport and Dim Door both serve the same role. If you have one, you don't need the other. Sorcs are best when they don't have multiple spells serving the same role. Also note that ALL spells in the Teleport Subschool (including Benign Transposition and Dimensional Hop) are V only. No somatics anywhere, IIRC.

Mystral
2009-01-19, 08:34 PM
Well, I'm making this sorcerer, see, and I decided to have a particular goal with it: versatility. With the limited spell selection that sorcerer's get, I want to be able to do as much with them as possible. Unfortunately, I then realized I'm not skilled with planning arcane spells.

So, using only core, what's the most flexible set of spells that I can get for a 12th-level sorcerer? And please, I'd rather it if nobody started with the "Just play a wizard" deal. I'm trying to beat every situation with my spells, not have a spell for every situation.

By level 12, the spells known would be: 9/5/5/4/3/2/1

Thanks!

0: Whatever. Just make sure to take Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Read Magic and Message. Ghost Sound and Dancing Lights is optional if you don't have an appropiate Illusion.

1: Grease
Charm Person
Enlarge Person
Unseen Servant
Ray of Enfeeblement

2: Glitterdust
Alter Self
Mirror Image
Minor Image
Shatter

3: Fly
Phantom Steed
Magic Circle against (your choice, evil recommended)
Dispel Magic (Switch for Greater Dispel Magic at Level 13-14)

4: Enervation
Confusion
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability

5: Telekinesis
Wall of Force

6: Contingency

Lappy9000
2009-01-19, 08:44 PM
Alter Self is like a Pwn cannon. You can grant yourself natural armor, natural attacks, and a lot of other stuff.I was thinking about that one in particular myself. Especially since I'll be playing a living construct race. In fact, I've been flipping through the Monster Manuals to find something for each HD that can help with the races' notoriously low speed and armor class.

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted so far. I've now got a pretty good idea of how to put this spell list together. You guys are a great help!

EDIT: Oh, and I actually could get rid of the familiar, since the race has an ability that can emulate a familiar pretty well (for the touch attacks at least).

Thurbane
2009-01-19, 09:30 PM
<snip>
Thanks for the critique Shneeky. :smallsmile:

I was basing spells around versatility rather than combat effectiveness.

I'll explain some of my rationale - see what you think:

* Summon Monster VI, Animate Dead, Charm Monster, Command Undead, Mount = quick minions, fall guys, trap test dummies etc.

* Teleport, Fly, Gaseous Form, Knock, Reduce Person = mobility, getting into/out of tight spaces etc.

* Shrink Item, Arcane Lock, Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Mending = item manipulation.

* Shadow Evocation, Acid Splash, Touch of Fatigue = damage/debuffs (minor priority - leave the damge for melee types or Codzilla).

* Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Detect Poison, Message = mainly for recon

* Enlarge Person, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Read Magic = general utility

* Polymorph, Major Image, Prestidigitation = everything else :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2009-01-21, 06:14 AM
(too long to quote)

(stuff not mentioned): No qualms, but left out for space. Just so you don't think I'm being negative.

Overland flight does not make fly obsolete, b/c it only gives average manuevaribility. Check out the flight rules. Bird like manuevaribility can screw you easily. And it's a personal spell, as mentioned.

Mirror image is often misunderstood & overestimated. It is a piece of cake for a monster, especially one with a ranged weapon, to destroy multiple images in a single round. Their AC is silly low. Or he will discover your location outright if he lands a hit. Thus following attacks by the same monster or attacks by other monsters can all pick the right target. And once you attack, especially in melee or with a ray spell, you also give yourself away. After giving yourself away, on your turn you can make sure you and your images move through eachother to re-scramble things during your move action.

Enlarge person is good, but only if used properly. Net effect is +0 AB, -2 AC, +2 to +4.5 damage, and reach. Stopping there it's almost a debuff, or a minor buff at best. Not worth the casting time. But if cast on a tripper, grappler, etc., that (net) +5 really helps, especially with the reach.

I found shrink item extremely useful when put on a (caster level) day rotation, thus letting me carry up to (caster level) shrunken items at all times with just 1 spell slot. I carried around several very large items from the PHB at all times. Like a full barrel, a battering ram, etc. If you're only going to shrink gigantic items you happen to find, then yeah that's not frequent enough to bother.

I'd put true strike on a scroll, as it's rarely essential and consumes a round. Likewise the other spells you disagreed with (and I do to) could go on scrolls since they come up rarely.



(again I'm too lazy to quote :P)

I believe summoning spells need to rest on an appropriate surface (usually solid ground), not conjuration in general. Could be wrong. And yeah, it seems like fire doesn't get rid of solid fog as the rules get pretty specific, and it was probably a mistake before. Yet another reason to carry dispell.

Shadow evocation for direct damage seems fairly weak/low-damage b/c of the -1 spell level and double saves. If you want good DD you empower a real fireball, I'd think. Shadow conjuration I could maybe see for some spells, and maybe shadow evocation for non-DD spells too.

Polymorph might be good for versatility with a good plan, I dunno. As for cheese, it's actually not that overpowered without splatbooks and/or gear. Or a million buffs (and the necessary prep time), but that works without polymorph too.

Like I said the list I posted earlier saw actual play and they all worked well except for the ones I specified. I'd also agree with 80% of spells others have posted, except for utility spells. If you can't use a spell almost every day or multiple times a day - divination spell and you're the dedicated party scout, for example - please please put it on a scroll. It's not worth it. Shneekey pointed out ~4 spells not to take, for example, that fall under this category. You can get far more scrolls than can fit on your spell list for not much coin, for much better versatility. And you'll only be reducing your versatility to have a spell known that you use once every 5-10 sessions.

Fixer
2009-01-21, 08:16 AM
Want to blast something? Get a stick.
Replace 'stick' with 'wand' or 'staff' and you have yourself a good idea. Sorcerers can cast ANY spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list; they only need wands, staves, and/or scrolls.

Your spells known should be specific for things you need quickly to keep you alive or long-duration utility spells where caster level is important. If you need a blasting spell a lot (because of the party not having anyone else for AoE) then you need to learn one. ABOVE ALL, your spells known should be about keeping you alive and able to use your wands/scrolls/staves to actually do damage.

One spell I HIGHLY recommend at your level is Limited Wish. Why? Because you can use it to change your spells known, even if only temporarily, to fit your immediate needs (GM arbitration as to whether this would work, but it fits the theme of the spell). You can also use it to replicate the effects of a lower-level spell. With its cost of 300XP (which, in an emergency, is nothing), this can be a life-saver if you REALLY need to spam a particular spell to take down a baddie.

If your DM allows it, take Leadership and get an Artificer as a follower to keep you well-armed. Even a low-level Artificer can make many expendable items, especially if you give them your unusable magic items to fuel their artificer pool.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-21, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the critique Shneeky. :smallsmile:

I was basing spells around versatility rather than combat effectiveness.

I'll explain some of my rationale - see what you think:

* Summon Monster VI, Animate Dead, Charm Monster, Command Undead, Mount = quick minions, fall guys, trap test dummies etc. Summon Monster VI is too high level to be a trap dummy. You don't want to blow your most powerful spell on something so trivial. It is good as minions and speedbumps while your party gets together, which is why I wasn't too negative about it.

Animate Dead costs too much in material components for it to be worth a spell known as a Sorcerer. Command Undead is better for the Cleric than you, he gets it sooner anyways. Charm Monster isn't as useful as dominate Monster, but still has use.

You have too many redundancies in this department. You only need one or two here, not four. Better bet would be Summon Monster I for trapspringing and speedbumping. It doesn't have to survive, it just has to get in it's way.


* Teleport, Fly, Gaseous Form, Knock, Reduce Person = mobility, getting into/out of tight spaces etc. Again, Knock is worthless as a spell known. Get a Wand of Knock, and you've got 50 charges. If you're running into that many locks that have no other way to get through, get a party member to dip in Rogue for Trapfinding. Gaseous Form has no mobility compared to Fly, and hoses your casting in the process. Teleport is good. Reduce person... not so much. As long as you have Teleport, you don't NEED Reduce Person.


* Shrink Item, Arcane Lock, Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Mending = item manipulation. All of these, with the possible exception of Shrink Item and Unseen Servant, are worthless to you. Handy Haversack is 2k, and carries more than Floating Disk. Arcane Lock is also pointless, grab Rope Trick instead. Mending is okay, at least it's just a cantrip, and a very handy one.


* Shadow Evocation, Acid Splash, Touch of Fatigue = damage/debuffs (minor priority - leave the damge for melee types or Codzilla). Shadow Evocation is piss-poor for damage. Touch of Fatigue requires a melee touch attack, which you seriously don't want. Debuffs should be your main priority, not minor.


* Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Detect Poison, Message = mainly for recon That's what you have a Rogue for.


* Enlarge Person, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Read Magic = general utility These are good choices.


* Polymorph, Major Image, Prestidigitation = everything else :smalltongue: Some cheese in Polymorph, but handy spells.

You're trying to take over everyone else's role. In particular, you're really stepping on the Skillmonkey's toes with this lineup. He can do it better, without blowing spells known on things he can do with a simple skill check. You have a party, let them contribute too.

You also have NOTHING in the way of Battlefield Control. That's more than just dangerous. You've got the best battlefield control of anyone in the game, if you choose your list properly. Just a couple of spells would be all you need to lock things up and tie them down. Solid Fog and Black Tentacles both don't allow SR and don't allow saves (although Tentacles allow a contested Grapple check). Cloudkill is an auto-KO when in conjunction with a Greater Shadow Evocation (Force Cage). Stinking Cloud is one of the best ways to get opponent casters to shut up (cannot cast when nausiated, and it's a fort save), it is also good against rogues, and anything else not immune to poison that has a poor Fort save.

And to address another statement:


Mirror image is often misunderstood & overestimated. It is a piece of cake for a monster, especially one with a ranged weapon, to destroy multiple images in a single round. Their AC is silly low. Or he will discover your location outright if he lands a hit. Thus following attacks by the same monster or attacks by other monsters can all pick the right target. And once you attack, especially in melee or with a ray spell, you also give yourself away. After giving yourself away, on your turn you can make sure you and your images move through eachother to re-scramble things during your move action.

First, if a monster has enough attacks to blow through all your images, you'd have likely been DEAD without the buff. That alone makes it worth it. Odds are, you're better off than with Displacement, which is only a 50% miss chance. Second, if he's completely focusing on you, completely ignoring the rest of the party, you've done your job, the rest of the party will curb-stomp him, and you've temporarily taken the place of 'tank', surviving ONLY because you had all those illusions he HAD to get through to get to you.

So go ahead, target me, ignore the rest of the party... like the Cleric with Slay Living and Greater Turning, or the UberCharge guy about to do a full attack for 200+/hit, or the precision-based guy, who also might have some death effects, and likely has enough UMD to also dish out some Save or Screwed as well... I'll just use my magic to keep you from hitting me long enough for my friends to eliminate you.


The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on. Casting a spell is not giving yourself away, each of your images also acts in every way as though it is casting.

In short, best defense against it is to... close your eyes. A 50% miss chance is better than one in nine, particularly if you have Blind Fighting. Or, barring that, True Sight.

Lappy9000
2009-01-21, 12:08 PM
You're trying to take over everyone else's role. In particular, you're really stepping on the Skillmonkey's toes with this lineup. He can do it better, without blowing spells known on things he can do with a simple skill check. You have a party, let them contribute too.
Yeah, I'm definitely against taking over the roles of others. Now that I know what the rest of the party will be (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and Rogue), I'm instead going to try to focus on doing everything the other's can't.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-21, 03:31 PM
Yeah, I'm definitely against taking over the roles of others. Now that I know what the rest of the party will be (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and Rogue), I'm instead going to try to focus on doing everything the other's can't.

Unfortunately, the only thing the party doesn't do well is... healing. Druids don't do well as main healers, because they cannot spontaneously cure (at least not until you get SNA IV for Uni), which means devoting spell slots to their healing.

Damage output is covered by the Barb and the Druid. Low-end buffs are covered by the Bard (and let's hope he picks up some healing as well, or at least a wand, as a backup healer), battlefield control can be done by the Druid, but that's forcing him to wear an awful lot of hats.

I'd suggest going heavy on the disabling and crowd control. and back off of the 'mooks and minions' and 'item manipulation'. Druids spontaneously summon, Bards are good at charms, they've got this covered.

Your party's weakness is going to be a lack of burst healing, so your job is to make sure no one gets hurt in the first place. This means crippling or disabling opponents so your barb and rogue can disembowel them one at a time.

Subotei
2009-01-21, 03:52 PM
If you have a good Con score, a familiar can be pretty badass as well. Trollshape is a spell from the polymorph subschool, featured in the PHBII. Swift action cast, drop it on your familiar. BAM, instant wall of not-so-weak meat between you and death. With its regen, and a few hp from you, the little guy goes from zero to hero real quick. Or, if you don't mind your trolliar not being able to move more than 5' from you, you could even share it with him, gaining all of the defensive benefits. Of cource, this loses you the ability to cast spells, but the regen is nice.

Me like this - especially because I'm thinking of Vampiric Touch....

Lappy9000
2009-01-21, 04:55 PM
Unfortunately, the only thing the party doesn't do well is... healing. Druids don't do well as main healers, because they cannot spontaneously cure (at least not until you get SNA IV for Uni), which means devoting spell slots to their healing.

Damage output is covered by the Barb and the Druid. Low-end buffs are covered by the Bard (and let's hope he picks up some healing as well, or at least a wand, as a backup healer), battlefield control can be done by the Druid, but that's forcing him to wear an awful lot of hats.

I'd suggest going heavy on the disabling and crowd control. and back off of the 'mooks and minions' and 'item manipulation'. Druids spontaneously summon, Bards are good at charms, they've got this covered.

Your party's weakness is going to be a lack of burst healing, so your job is to make sure no one gets hurt in the first place. This means crippling or disabling opponents so your barb and rogue can disembowel them one at a time....I realize that. Hence why I'm trying to do what the rest of the party can't efficiently do already. Besides, healing has never been a problem for us.

Leon
2009-01-21, 09:25 PM
battlefield control can be done by the Druid, but that's forcing him to wear an awful lot of hats.


WildShape into a Hydra.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-21, 10:09 PM
WildShape into a Hydra.

Hydras are Magical Beasts, not Animals. By Core, unable to be used to Wildshape.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-01-25, 04:03 PM
To cover your party's healing deficet, you could take the Arcane Disciple feat, which, if you have a good enough wisdom score and worship some god that gives the healing domain, you could get multiple cure spells. For example, if you had 13 wisdom, you would get cure light, moderate, and serious wounds. Get it to 15, and you get heal!

Leon
2009-01-25, 10:43 PM
Hydras are Magical Beasts, not Animals. By Core, unable to be used to Wildshape.

Then find a a natural Multi headed creature

Thurbane
2009-01-27, 09:12 PM
Another way to make a Sorcerer more versatile is with feats that let him use spell slot to generate other effects - i.e. Celestial, Infernal & Draconic Heritage feats.