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View Full Version : Open Grave: In Which I Complain Endlessly About Vecna (also the book is great)



Inyssius Tor
2009-01-18, 09:57 PM
Yaaay.

Vecna? Is soooo laaaame. Four attacks: Paralyzing Touch, which does what you'd expect; Banish To The Dread Realm; Ray of Death, which drains a healing surge; and Necrotic Web, which is Burst 3 within 20 but otherwise unremarkable. And he looks like super dumb.

You know who's way cooler?

Osterneth, the Bronze Lich.
The Worm that Walks.
Count Strahd von Zarovich.
Everyone else in the book.

Seriously, everything is super nifty except Vecna. Osterneth is awesome. Kyuss is awesome. The Head of Vecna is awesome. Pale Reavers drink blood with their hair. HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN!? :smalltongue:

Anyway, any thoughts? Anyone envious (I doubt it, since apparently every Barnes & Noble has it early) and wondering about contents?

Moff Chumley
2009-01-18, 10:08 PM
What's the fluff/crunch ratio?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-18, 10:21 PM
I en't actually read the book yet, but... it's pretty good, I guess. I'm not sure how to measure it. Pages 128 through 227 are pretty much a lot of monsters and assorted other things you can fight, albeit monsters with more fluff (and better fluff) than the Monster Manual stuff. There's a lot of fluff mixed in with some of these guys. It's not as good as, say, Monster Manual V fare, but it's not as bad as 4E's first MM.

Pages 56 through 127 are lairs. A whole bunch of lairs. Cool stuff. One takes place in the mostly-petrified remnants of a long-dead primordial lord, which is a cool (if poorly illustrated) concept.

Earlier than that: fluff, with some crunch mixed in. Artifacts, rituals, four or so monsters, a paragraph about the Monster Throng (but no help creating one)... oh, and some undead grafts.

Mando Knight
2009-01-18, 10:36 PM
The Draconomicon's got some interesting fluff, lairs, an artifact or two, too... but then, they've had tomes of Dragon lore since the first edition.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-19, 05:15 AM
Any significant content for players, or is this mostly a book for DMs? The preview said there was a handful of rituals, but what about paragon paths? Feats to fight undead? Stuff like that.

Athaniar
2009-01-19, 05:42 AM
The Worm that Walks

The template (as in 3.5e SRD) or Kyuss himself?

KKL
2009-01-19, 07:04 AM
snip

UNDEAD GRAFTS. TELL ME ABOUT THEM. Please.

InaVegt
2009-01-19, 07:42 AM
Any significant content for players, or is this mostly a book for DMs? The preview said there was a handful of rituals, but what about paragon paths? Feats to fight undead? Stuff like that.

WotC seems to be trying to keep player and DM content separate.

Since this seems to be a DM book, you'll likely not find much player content inside. (Likely limited to 4 or 5 magic items and about as much rituals, maybe even less. Grafts might be an exception, haven't seen the book yet.)

Kurald Galain
2009-01-19, 08:02 AM
WotC seems to be trying to keep player and DM content separate.
Yeah, I figured as much. However, I'd like to have an answer from somebody who's read the book, rather than speculation.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-19, 03:58 PM
Any significant content for players, or is this mostly a book for DMs? The preview said there was a handful of rituals, but what about paragon paths? Feats to fight undead? Stuff like that.

It is indeed pretty much a DM book. Nine artifacts, unless I've missed one, and some of them are pretty damn cool (the Sword of Kas (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081225) is by far the coolest, though). Seven rituals, some of which are cool--Corpse Light creates light, and gives any undead within the area a halo of flickering green fire; Gravesight lets you see through undead eyes, even if they are still attached to a zombie or vampire or wraith or something; Last Sight Vision lets you replay the last experiences of a corpse; and Undead Servitor animates a zombie butler for you. The others are kind of lame.


UNDEAD GRAFTS. TELL ME ABOUT THEM. Please.

They're pretty minor, if cool. They provide one or two extra powers each, which supposedly don't unbalance monsters or NPCs enough to change their CR. They're meant to be used on NPCs, but acknowledge that giving one to a player would be pretty interesting; there's a little sidebar, nothing too detailed, on making a graft seem like something horrible to be expunged rather than this neat undead brain grafted into your skull. Speaking of which, for an example: the Lich's Brain gives you darkvision, +2 to typical lich areas of expertise, the typical undead resistances and vulnerabilities (but not immunities), and the lich's Spellmaster power. That one's supposedly an Epic-tier graft, by the way.


The template (as in 3.5e SRD) or Kyuss himself?

Kyuss himself. He looks more powerful than Vecna, even though he's only level 31 (Huge Solo Controller, if you're wondering). He has this encounter power that actually lets him take over your whole turn--even allowing him to use daily powers; he has another encounter power that lets him recharge either that or one other encounter power; he has the typical "any creature he kills arises as a mook under his control" thing--but his spawn are Wormspawn Praetorians, who are Large level 28 Brutes that split in half like Ochre Jellies; he has powers that play off of his mindworm aura; he can make five basic attacks (melee or ranged) each round ... in short, I think he is a pretty cool guy.

Townopolis
2009-01-19, 04:04 PM
You mentioned something about the Head of Vecna. Do tell more.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-19, 04:12 PM
You mentioned something about the Head of Vecna. Do tell more.

Fan name for the Lich's Brain graft. It actually fits wonderfully, considering that the bonuses are considerable... if you're willing to overlook the fact that you have to remove your own brain in order to gain them.

KKL
2009-01-21, 04:50 AM
HAHAHAHA

Orcus can beat Vecna easily.

Dhavaer
2009-01-21, 05:44 AM
... in short, I think he is a pretty cool guy.

Eh spawns undead and doesn't afraid of anything?

...

Am I doing this right?

MammonAzrael
2009-01-21, 11:07 AM
My first instinct upon reading your comments on Vecna would be "You're missing something!", but since I don't have the book, I can't gleefully point out what and show you how awesome Vecna is. I would've thought WotC would have spent a large amount of time to trying to make Vecna as great as possibly, since he's always been such a fan favorite.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-21, 03:13 PM
My first instinct upon reading your comments on Vecna would be "You're missing something!", but since I don't have the book, I can't gleefully point out what and show you how awesome Vecna is. I would've thought WotC would have spent a large amount of time to trying to make Vecna as great as possibly, since he's always been such a fan favorite.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Looking at him more closely, he is pretty good--but he still doesn't really pop. I mean:

Tiamat can take five turns a round; she has six different at-will powers (which can dominate, blind, push 3 and trip, or drain 1d4 healing surges), eight encounter powers, and she's wreathed in this churning elemental chaos of an aura (as well as all the other things I'm leaving out).

Blazing Rorn the Fury's aura negates fire resistance and pulls everything in it towards him; when bloodied, he turns into a Gargantuan star-beast with threatening reach, and all of his abilities are altered when he does; and even he can make three attacks a round.

Vecna... well, he's not bad. His action-point thing is kind of cool, I guess; he can spend one to act whenever he sees an enemy use one, and he gains another whenever he drops an enemy. But Tiamat starts with one more than he does, and she can act five times per round without using any, so it's hardly spectacular. Sure, he can create a permanent seven-by-seven zone of necrotic webs maybe every other turn... but so what?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-21, 03:22 PM
Eh spawns undead and doesn't afraid of anything?

...

Am I doing this right?

You have no idea how hard it was for me to keep from saying that in any of my posts in this thread--or, for that matter, the topic line. I must have typed and then deleted it eight or nine times by now.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-31, 03:24 AM
... so now you all have the book.

Yes you do.

Shut up.

Anyway, so... what am I missing about Vecna? If nothing, what do you think would make him "pop" like the other Big Players?

_Zoot_
2009-01-31, 03:41 AM
The hole discorporation thing makes him more interesting if a party doesn’t know about it, but it says that that happens for all gods not just Vecna.....

LoopyZebra
2009-01-31, 03:56 AM
I have to say that my reaction to the book is very mixed... there's a lot of cool ideas in here, but a lot of lame ones too, and a significant number of ideas that fall resoundingly in the "meh" category unless you breathesome life into them. Note the Brain in the Jar entry. Do DMs really need Brains in Jars as enemies, and then four variations (Broken, Normal, Armored, Exalted)? On the other hand, there's things like the Bronze Lich, the Vampire Muse, and the Pale Hair critter that really stand out. Admittedly, I haven't delved too deep into the book but those were my impressions after glancing over the monster fluff.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-31, 03:58 AM
Note the Brain in the Jar entry. Do DMs really need Brains in Jars as enemies

**** YES. :smallamused:

seriously what kind of a crazy question is that

EDIT: I will opine that the lairs took up too much of the book, and that some of the monsters were cooler than their tiny little statblocks were.

EDIT EDIT: That is, I see the offalian, and I think "that's wicked cool and I want to use it." So I head on over to the Compendium and find a completely unrelated monster with an appropriate level, and stat-block, and two or three more powers, and reskin it to look like an offalian.

KKL
2009-01-31, 05:14 AM
Note the Brain in the Jar entry. Do DMs really need Brains in Jars as enemies, and then four variations (Broken, Normal, Armored, Exalted)?

I love them because they're silly.

NPCMook
2009-01-31, 05:23 AM
Vecna is quite the badass in my opinion, Banish to the Dread Realm removes the player till his next turn and then he has to treat everyone as an enemy for Opportunity attacks, and recharges on a 4, 5, or 6, and the Ray of Death which I believe is a +39 vs WILL, that's certainly not going to hit every time he uses it... and its At-Will, not to mention his Aura 10 which deals 50 damage to you if you aren't undead. Yeah Vecna doesn't have a lot of attacks like Tiamat, but he doesn't need them.

Solaris
2009-01-31, 11:47 AM
Note the Brain in the Jar entry. Do DMs really need Brains in Jars as enemies, and then four variations (Broken, Normal, Armored, Exalted)?
You dare besmirch the Council of Eldest? How dare you, foolish mortal man? How dare you?
... Seriously, I can picture a whole 'council' of these things, servants to a lich emperor. Nefarious evil guys always have their place in D&D... even in 4E.

hamishspence
2009-01-31, 12:22 PM
I like it. But. Did anyone notice that Infected Zombies don't have an entry for the disease (zombie plague) they are supposed to spread?

Hopefully this will be errataed.

Shadowtraveler
2009-01-31, 12:46 PM
... so now you all have the book.

Yes you do.

Shut up.

Anyway, so... what am I missing about Vecna? If nothing, what do you think would make him "pop" like the other Big Players?Vecna's not a front-line brute like Orcus or Tiamat. He's the Doctor Doom of D&D, always plotting behind the scenes, cursing that nefarious Reed Richards.

Or something...

Ascension
2009-01-31, 01:10 PM
Vecna's not a front-line brute like Orcus or Tiamat. He's the Doctor Doom of D&D, always plotting behind the scenes, cursing that nefarious Reed Richards.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c78/Chris-Ascended/doomyell.gif

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 01:34 PM
So, what would RICHARDS! be?

I'm thinking epic artificer with insane Int.

Athaniar
2009-01-31, 02:41 PM
Note the Brain in the Jar entry. Do DMs really need Brains in Jars as enemies, and then four variations (Broken, Normal, Armored, Exalted)?

Are the Brains in Jars servants of fungus creatures from the Elemental Plane of Ice?

The Mormegil
2009-01-31, 03:06 PM
Vecna has cool abilities that work with APs. Many end-game combos work with AP (ab)use. So being able to step in, paralyse or otherwise incapacitate people who could harm me, make them waste their APs, then rinse and repeat... yeah, it's good.

Crossfiyah
2009-01-31, 06:22 PM
Vecna is so creatively done. I wish he had a recommended level 37 encounter like Tiamat though.

But yeah, between his aura, his incredible disabling abilities, and his absolute rape of anyone trying to abuse AP, he's just as strong as Tiamat, if not stronger.

AgentPaper
2009-01-31, 06:58 PM
Note to self: If Vecna is chosen as big bad evil for a campaign, Vecna will manipulate Tiamat and control her. Final fight, he will be RIDING HER INTO BATTLE!

Wanna use action point cheese to beat Tiamat? He stops it. That's all he bothers doing for the whole fight, unless Tiamat somehow is beaten.

I would put this at a level 40 encounter, at least. I wonder if they'll ever put out rules for post-30? Of course, they could always just go the route of 3.5 and say, "You're level 31. Write something down on your character sheet. Anything, we don't care. That's what you get for level 31." :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2009-01-31, 07:55 PM
Note to self: If Vecna is chosen as big bad evil for a campaign, Vecna will manipulate Tiamat and control her. Final fight, he will be RIDING HER INTO BATTLE!


ERROR, Vecna doesn't possess mental control or manipulation powers in 4e.

Seriously, I don't understand, why bother to write up god's stats when they don't actually have godlike powers?

If they don't want to write something resembling a god, at least say it's the avatar/manifestastion or something, existing just to fight in place of the god, not actually do anything godlike like erasing people's minds or simply teleporting between worlds.

It really bugs me this 4e philosophy. It's cool to fight gods, so let's make a bunch of weakling called "gods" that exist just to be killed by the players, whitout the players actually risking being instantly crushed by actual godlike powers.

chiasaur11
2009-01-31, 07:59 PM
Note to self: If Vecna is chosen as big bad evil for a campaign, Vecna will manipulate Tiamat and control her. Final fight, he will be RIDING HER INTO BATTLE!

Wanna use action point cheese to beat Tiamat? He stops it. That's all he bothers doing for the whole fight, unless Tiamat somehow is beaten.

I would put this at a level 40 encounter, at least. I wonder if they'll ever put out rules for post-30? Of course, they could always just go the route of 3.5 and say, "You're level 31. Write something down on your character sheet. Anything, we don't care. That's what you get for level 31." :smallbiggrin:

Anti Vecna eye beams are go!

KKL
2009-01-31, 08:16 PM
It really bugs me this 4e philosophy. It's cool to fight gods, so let's make a bunch of weakling called "gods" that exist just to be killed by the players, whitout the players actually risking being instantly crushed by actual godlike powers.

You do know that there was a 3.5e book called Deities and Demigods that does exactly what you're lambasting 4e for? And the gods there are weaker than the gods in 4e, to the point where any reasonably powerful party could actually kill them?

And have you missed the deity's discorporation which is a big giant middle finger to any party that doens't go through pains to actually ensure the bastard they're going to kill doesn't go "Well that was mildly fun ta ta while I do something else!"

The deities are completely up to the DMs for use.

You know, like in 3.5e.

Mando Knight
2009-01-31, 08:44 PM
You do know that there was a 3.5e book called Deities and Demigods that does exactly what you're lambasting 4e for? And the gods there are weaker than the gods in 4e, to the point where any reasonably powerful party could actually kill them?

And have you missed the deity's discorporation which is a big giant middle finger to any party that doens't go through pains to actually ensure the bastard they're going to kill doesn't go "Well that was mildly fun ta ta while I do something else!"

The deities are completely up to the DMs for use.

You know, like in 3.5e.

On top of that, Tiamat is nearly impervious to AC and Fort attacks (most PCs will have a ~20% of hitting her... before she imposes a -2 penalty to attack rolls from Frightful Majesty's aftereffect, and before she begins to use Vitriolic Spray to blind everyone. And before she uses her Close Burst 30 rechargeable attack. That deals 10d8 damage and deals 25 ongoing damage. And she's impervious to stun-lock. And drains the Defender's Healing Surges by chewing on him. At-Will. And she flies faster than a movement-focused Elf can run. And has an At-Will domination attack.

Crossfiyah
2009-02-01, 01:59 AM
On top of that, Tiamat is nearly impervious to AC and Fort attacks (most PCs will have a ~20% of hitting her... before she imposes a -2 penalty to attack rolls from Frightful Majesty's aftereffect, and before she begins to use Vitriolic Spray to blind everyone. And before she uses her Close Burst 30 rechargeable attack. That deals 10d8 damage and deals 25 ongoing damage. And she's impervious to stun-lock. And drains the Defender's Healing Surges by chewing on him. At-Will. And she flies faster than a movement-focused Elf can run. And has an At-Will domination attack.

Yes. And Vecna is no slouch himself, what with his aura that will be doing at bare minimum 5 necrotic every turn, and most likely doing 20-50 while simultaneously healing any ally that takes damage back to full every turn. Not to mention his 10 teleport speed, meaning he is impossible to keep flanked, or even within range, coupled with his ability to bend AP whores over sideways and service them ritualistically. Banish as a 4/5/6 recharge is almost unfair, and even if the Cleric and Warlord are somehow able to keep up with the aura, his Ray will drain the parties' surges twice as fast as standard. Hell, with a properly designed domicile, Web can completely cripple the party by itself.

(Area of 20x20)-(Area of 7x7)-Area of 20x20)

Place the burst in the 7x7 area, and have Vecna teleport between the other two areas. The targets will take so much from the aura and the web combined that the healers won't be able to keep up.

NPCMook
2009-02-01, 06:40 AM
Yes. And Vecna is no slouch himself, what with his aura that will be doing at bare minimum 5 necrotic every turn, and most likely doing 20-50 while simultaneously healing any ally that takes damage back to full every turn. Not to mention his 10 teleport speed, meaning he is impossible to keep flanked, or even within range, coupled with his ability to bend AP whores over sideways and service them ritualistically. Banish as a 4/5/6 recharge is almost unfair, and even if the Cleric and Warlord are somehow able to keep up with the aura, his Ray will drain the parties' surges twice as fast as standard. Hell, with a properly designed domicile, Web can completely cripple the party by itself.

(Area of 20x20)-(Area of 7x7)-Area of 20x20)

Place the burst in the 7x7 area, and have Vecna teleport between the other two areas. The targets will take so much from the aura and the web combined that the healers won't be able to keep up.

Not to forget the Web recharges on a 4, 5, or 6, and just stays there, he doesn't have to spend an action, it just stays there