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View Full Version : Erfworld 139 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 126



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pclips
2009-01-23, 10:47 PM
New comic is up. And I actually get to start one of these threads for once.:smallcool:

bdares
2009-01-23, 10:49 PM
Huh, you only beat me because I double checked to make sure it wasn't already there?! :P

I am loving these action shots.

I just realized that Parson was not speaking figuratively when he said "crap 'em." How awesome is that.

Winged One
2009-01-23, 10:53 PM
YTMND? The only appropriate thing from there I can think of is this (http://itsatraprap.ytmnd.com/).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-23, 10:55 PM
Brings a new meaning to the phrase "Pull my finger"...

I saw a 4chan and NSFW in special effects... very nice. 4chan's reference I felt was particularly appropriate.

So now they're going after the other coalition representatives. Obviously, they'd be leaders with higher values, so that alone would make them high-value targets for Parson, but it may have the secondary effect of breaking up the coalition. Very good move on Parson's part. Can't wait to see how Ansom counters this.

VoodooGuru
2009-01-23, 10:57 PM
There were all kinds of wildly NSFW things referred to here, nicely done. I love "NSFW" almost as much as "NWOBHM" as a sound effect!

The look on Ansom's face is priceless.

innovan
2009-01-23, 10:58 PM
Weiner-rams say, You're the Man Now Dog.

Not Safe For Work
Thought was "HCFM", is actually "4CHAN".

Xeticus
2009-01-23, 11:03 PM
I read the strip quickly and stopped when I saw tubgirl. I knew the others had to be just as unsavory. This strip definitely covers the crap of the internet. Can't wait for the next one!

Also I find the fact that Ansom ordered Hamster captured interesting. I think that Charlie made that as part of the renegotiated contract. That and Hamster's wrist calculator.

Saladman
2009-01-23, 11:03 PM
So, Shockmancy... really is. Truth in advertising WIN!

I was wrong, I thought it was going to be electrical. But at least it is direct damage/explosive, not just psychological surprise, so I was happy with it.

Obviously the Coalition is booped. I'm going to guess Sizemore pulls through the whole battle after all since he can go to ground, although there's time for boop to happen.

Glome
2009-01-23, 11:04 PM
Interesting, Sizemore probably still has the spell '2 Girls 1 Cup' available for later attack.

And now we know for sure what one of the conditions of Ansom's contract with Charlie was, there would be no way Ansom would let Parson live if he didn't have to.

teratorn
2009-01-23, 11:04 PM
Brilliant! Crap them indeed. Duke Nozzle is sofa king booped!

PePe QuiCoSE
2009-01-23, 11:08 PM
this made me go LOL, literally! :smallbiggrin:
May, that IS shockamancy :smalleek:

Xenon
2009-01-23, 11:09 PM
wow, nice. 4chan indeed!

teratorn
2009-01-23, 11:12 PM
I was wrong, I thought it was going to be electrical. But at least it is direct damage/explosive, not just psychological surprise, so I was happy with it.


Huh? I think it was, the yellow thing which hits the helpers looks like psychological shock effect to me.

Moik
2009-01-23, 11:16 PM
Too awesome.

I like how 4chan is just one giant crapflood.

Very in-the-know.

Trazoi
2009-01-23, 11:16 PM
There were all kinds of wildly NSFW things referred to here, nicely done. I love "NSFW" almost as much as "NWOBHM" as a sound effect!
Yup. Both funny and faintly disturbing. That's some strong dark magic there.

And "NSFW" is my new top comic bizarro sound effect of all time.

Eraniverse
2009-01-23, 11:19 PM
Well boop. I knew Wanda was evil but... boop. That's some weapons grade unpleasantness she had stockpiled.

Saladman
2009-01-23, 11:21 PM
Huh? I think it was, the yellow thing which hits the helpers looks like shock effect to me.

More precisely, I thought it was going to be electrical only. And I'd have been disappointed if it was surprise only. I was too into getting on the first page to leave my comment for a moment and re-read it before posting.

Yellowchopstick
2009-01-23, 11:21 PM
Oh dear god. If I was a survivor of that, I'd be crying.

Is Sizemore riding on Mr. T? With Sizemore's kind heart, I bet he pities the fools. Oops, I meant foos :smalltongue:

teratorn
2009-01-23, 11:23 PM
More precisely, I thought it was going to be electrical only. And I'd have been disappointed if it was surprise only.

It looks like surprise like only (they're cowing in horror). It gave time for Sizemore to disengage (his troops were not swamped by the enemy and he himself was not attacked).

The crap part doesn't seem related to the spell, I think it's generic crap golem stuff.

RandolphCarter
2009-01-23, 11:26 PM
Interesting, Sizemore probably still has the spell '2 Girls 1 Cup' available for later attack.



and the penis bird, and bmezine, as well rotten and ogrish...

I can just see the coalition forces stumbling around, looking for more jugs of brain bleach...

Random NPC
2009-01-23, 11:27 PM
Heh. 4chan :smallbiggrin:

Saladman
2009-01-23, 11:29 PM
It looks like surprise like only (they're cowing in horror). It gave time for Sizemore to disengage (his troops were not swamped by the enemy and he himself was not attacked).

The crap part doesn't seem related to the spell, I think it's generic crap golem stuff.

The yellow beams looked like energy to me. And the *pull* <my finger> struck me as in the same broad category as the "shock" magic words, if not to the same degree.

But I see now what you're saying. I'll have to look at it some more.

teratorn
2009-01-23, 11:31 PM
But I see now what you're saying. I'll have to look at it some more.

Yeah, the images are too small. The face of the grey guy falling looks horrified but at this resolution it's hard to tell.

Edit: yep, my take on this is that shockamancy is something which renders your opponents unable to react for a round or two, thus allowing you to safely disengage and flee. I don't think the crap bomb is related to that, Parson made a difference between shock them and crap them.

Crap golems are bombs!

Poit-Narf
2009-01-23, 11:35 PM
Awesome. Yay for shockamancy!

Dys
2009-01-23, 11:40 PM
If shockamancy actually consisted of lightning, I'd be less terrified.

Dys.

BRC
2009-01-23, 11:41 PM
Am I the only one who sees the Sistine chapel ceiling in panel 10?

Also, I really, really don't want to cross a Shockamancer now. Before this comic, I just thought they would shoot lightning any me...but there are some things worse than lightning.

Eugenitor
2009-01-23, 11:44 PM
There was a joke about Goatse and Shockamancy in another thread.. surprised the creators used it.

And references aside, did Sizemore just waste two enemy coalition leaders? "And yet, this still feels like a mistake" indeed.

Poor Ansom... he's going to try to capture, not croak.. unfortunately for him, he won't get the chance to do either... :D

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-01-23, 11:46 PM
Ha ha ha ha...man...That **** is da BOMB!

heh, couldn't help it...I had to say it.

Winged One
2009-01-23, 11:46 PM
Am I the only one who sees the Sistine chapel ceiling in panel 10?

No. No you are not. :cool::smallbiggrin:

zillion ninjas
2009-01-23, 11:49 PM
This page is made of Win and Motivators! :smallcool:

Vince3
2009-01-23, 11:49 PM
Now THAT'S what you call "Shock and AW (CRAP!)" :smallbiggrin:

BRC
2009-01-23, 11:50 PM
There was a joke about Goatse and Shockamancy in another thread.. surprised the creators used it.

And references aside, did Sizemore just waste two enemy coalition leaders? "And yet, this still feels like a mistake" indeed.

Poor Ansom... he's going to try to capture, not croak.. unfortunately for him, he won't get the chance to do either... :D
I think that was Charlies terms. Charlie wants Lord Hamster working for him, and he's got the thinkamancy to override Wanda's loyalty spell. So, in addition to whatever outrageous amount of shmuckers he's also charging Ansom.

Saladman
2009-01-23, 11:50 PM
Yeah, the images are too small. The face of the grey guy falling looks horrified but at this resolution it's hard to tell.

Edit: yep, my take on this is that shockamancy is something which renders your opponents unable to react for a round or two, thus allowing you to safely disengage and flee. I don't think the crap bomb is related to that, Parson made a difference between shock them and crap them.

Crap golems are bombs!

I'm coming around. You're right about Parson drawing that distinction, and "pull my finger" could fit under dirtomancy/crap golems rather than shockmancy as I first thought. I'll sleep on it.

fendrin
2009-01-23, 11:52 PM
The determined seriousness on the Sizemore and the crap golem's faces during the finger pull is priceless.

"You are but an automaton, and I am a slave to Duty. This is gonna be ugly for both of us."

I'm guessing Ansom is not being targeted because he is flying. Whether or not Sizemore took out the other warlords or not remains to be seen. It might actually be worse for Ansom if they survive.

Trazoi
2009-01-23, 11:52 PM
And references aside, did Sizemore just waste two enemy coalition leaders?
He certainly wasted them alright. Right now they're in it deep.

Crap punning I know, but how could I refuse?

Haven
2009-01-23, 11:57 PM
I saw E.T. more than Sistine--you know, brown and lumpy...


He certainly wasted them alright. Right now they're in it deep.

Crap punning I know, but how could I refuse?

That's definitely not copaseptic.

teratorn
2009-01-24, 12:02 AM
I'm guessing Ansom is not being targeted because he is flying. Whether or not Sizemore took out the other warlords or not remains to be seen.

Those were his orders. Their sides should lose their bonuses. I'm not sure how coalitions work, if they all get Ansom's bonus (hex leader) or each side gains just the bonus from their side's hex leader.. If it's the later RCC just took a serious hit.

Looking carefully the golem put those two guys out by knocking them against each other!

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-24, 12:03 AM
Ansom is really, really incompetent. He saw the dirtmancer come out of the ground with his own two eyes when Sizemore rescued Wanda, and yet made no contingencies for dealing with such an attack, or at least protecting his warlords from it? For the Titans' sake, the two warlords were back by themselves with no heavies, or even guards of any kind!

:smallannoyed:

hajo
2009-01-24, 12:06 AM
Pulling legs and fingers :smallamused:

and way too many new abbreviations to look up :smallsigh:

Also, I'm curious how Maggie will use thinkamancy offensively :smallbiggrin:

fendrin
2009-01-24, 12:11 AM
Those were his orders. Their sides should lose their bonuses. I'm not sure how coalitions work, if they all get Ansom's bonus (hex leader) or each side gains just the bonus from their side's hex leader.. If it's the later RCC just took a serious hit.

Sure'n he ordered it, that doesn't mean it'll be successful on the first attempt.

After an attack like that, I would expect the Sofa King warlord to want to pull his troops out. If the SK warlord croaks, however, there may be another SK warlord who is more likely to be cowed/awed by Ansom into staying.

That's what I meant about it might be better for Ansom if they don't survive.
A weakened coalition is better than a shattered coalition.

Whispri
2009-01-24, 12:17 AM
And that is why the RCC should have kept Ansom in a box.

As far as the magic goes, they're collapsing, not running, so... Oh and it looks like it was Shockmancy used in the Dungeon with Jill.

SteveMB
2009-01-24, 12:18 AM
Hope those healers have a stock of Brain Bleach....

fendrin
2009-01-24, 12:18 AM
And that is why the RCC should have kept Ansom in a box.

As far as the magic goes, they're collapsing, not running, so... Oh and it looks like it was Shockmancy used in the Dungeon with Jill.

When someone goes in to shock (medically speaking), they tend to shut down, not run.

Xuincherguixe
2009-01-24, 12:23 AM
War brings out the worst in us all that such blackest of magic is called forth. How desperate, and how foolish it is that the nuclear evil from which the internet orbits is invoked directly? Now that 4chan has been unleashed, there is no hope for erfworld. Doomed are they all.

FoE
2009-01-24, 12:24 AM
You evoked the name of 4chan! That is a dark spell indeed ...

Also, weiner-rammers? That's just wrong. :smalltongue:

slayerx
2009-01-24, 12:25 AM
i feel like this page confrims part of Charlie's deal... what other reason would Ansom want to capture Parson if not to hand him over to Charlie to fullfill a contract?

I really do wonder what those two warlord's were thinking just then...


Ansom is really, really incompetent. He saw the dirtmancer come out of the ground with his own two eyes when Sizemore rescued Wanda, and yet made no contingencies for dealing with such an attack, or at least protecting his warlords from it? For the Titans' sake, the two warlords were back by themselves with no heavies, or even guards of any kind!

:smallannoyed:

The two warlords were not in the bac, they were surrounded by infantry... in panel 7 you can see that Sizemore's golems are fighting off enemies coming from all sides... Sizemore is pretty much popping up right in the middle of the mass of enemies, getting in a few hits, setting up da bomb, and retreating... the warlords barely have enough time to know what hit them

There isn't much that can be done about such attacks seeing as the warlords have no way to stay off the ground and have no way to know where the attacks will strike

Besides, considering Parson's forces, Ansom likely thought that Sizemore would be behind the gate to aid in the front line defnese... Parson is afterall still outnumbered and will need all the defense he can get

teratorn
2009-01-24, 12:27 AM
Ansom is really, really incompetent.

Why? They are warlords, it's their mistake. I'm note sure a stronger stack would make much of a difference, the shockamancy looks quite effective. They shouldn't have been in the same stack though, maybe they're dating or something of the kind?

FoE
2009-01-24, 12:27 AM
I really do wonder what those two warlord's were thinking just then...

"Oh crap." :smallwink:

MReav
2009-01-24, 12:40 AM
So, the question on everyone's mind right now is: did Sizemore just level up?

Zeku
2009-01-24, 12:41 AM
I don't understand how Sizemore is able to attack on Ansom's turn? Are they all in the same hex? I've gotten fuzzy on the combat system.

And I think Sizemore is riding on Zangief. I'm not sure why he's a heavy metal golem, maybe it's a reference to:

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Marvel_vs._Capcom/Characters/Mech_Zangief

Panel 10 is definitely Adam+God. Fantastic references as always.

Glome
2009-01-24, 12:44 AM
Ansom is really, really incompetent...
:smallannoyed:

They are alliance warlords, I'm not sure that Anson can really command them around, he can at best only suggest a course of action. Of course he is still generally bad at dealing with guerilla warfare, but if he wasn't, then Parson wouldn't stand a chance.

Of course even Parson has screwed up before. When Wanda attacked Ansom he should have already had backup on the ground, since he knew that Charlie was possibly going to turn against his airforce.

the_tick_rules
2009-01-24, 12:52 AM
I have one of those wiener rammers to, in my pants.

shadowfox
2009-01-24, 12:59 AM
I don't understand how Sizemore is able to attack on Ansom's turn? Are they all in the same hex? I've gotten fuzzy on the combat system.

If they're in the same hex as the city (I believe they are, even if they're not in the city per se... looking at the previous comics, I'm a bit confused as to the confines of the city itself now), than it's a legal move; he's just taking advantage of creating two short moments of three-dimensional ground-based warfare in order to actively, and effectively, defend.

At any rate, it might be argued that Parson's taking advantage of yet another mechanic of the universe. Or not.

Whispri
2009-01-24, 01:07 AM
When someone goes in to shock (medically speaking), they tend to shut down, not run.
And falling over, not to mention shock, can be caused by physical damage. The magic Wanda unleashed on the Fliers involved no cheating, regardless of her chanting.


Why? They are warlords, it's their mistake. I'm note sure a stronger stack would make much of a difference, the shockamancy looks quite effective. They shouldn't have been in the same stack though, maybe they're dating or something of the kind?

Did you happen to notice Ansom launching this attack over the objections of a certain blue clad Warlord? Why bother defending that nitwit? No one's ever found victory by following his orders. It's his decision to attack. It's he who's throwing way victory once again. Oh and they're together on account of needing to discuss Ansom's battle 'plan'. Did they even know about Sizemore and his Golems?

BarGamer
2009-01-24, 01:13 AM
Oh dear god. If I was a survivor of that, I'd be crying.

Is Sizemore riding on Mr. T? With Sizemore's kind heart, I bet he pities the fools. Oops, I meant foos :smalltongue:

I pity the foos who did survive that. Because after some Brain Bleach, they'd be more vulnerable to Thinkamancy, yes? :smallbiggrin: The right Suggestion, and they'll defect, pun intended, to Parson's side.

And we've yet to see Parson and Wanda in action. I almost dread to think what kinda moves they're gonna pull out. Thriller? Dancing Superheroes? Caramel Dansen?

Ganurath
2009-01-24, 01:20 AM
And we've yet to see Parson and Wanda in action. I almost dread to think what kinda moves they're gonna pull out. Thriller? Dancing Superheroes? Caramel Dansen?Stomp-stomp-clap, stomp-stomp-clap...

It's a long shot, but nothing could be more awesome than Queen shaking the rafters.

multilis
2009-01-24, 01:27 AM
I don't understand how Sizemore is able to attack on Ansom's turn? Are they all in the same hex? I've gotten fuzzy on the combat system.
Yes, for *defender* entire city is counted as same hex/no movement cost. Attacker apparently has to use a movement to go between zones.

teratorn
2009-01-24, 01:27 AM
If they're in the same hex as the city (I believe they are, even if they're not in the city per se... looking at the previous comics, I'm a bit confused as to the confines of the city itself now),

They're in the city, in the space between the outer and inner walls (makes part of the outer walls, the inner walls are garrison). For the defenders they are all technically the same hex and they can travel from one to the other without spending the stat that goes by the name of "move." The attackers need to spend move when going from on the the other.

Vince3
2009-01-24, 01:31 AM
Stomp-stomp-clap, stomp-stomp-clap...

It's a long shot, but nothing could be more awesome than Queen shaking the rafters.

*shakes head no*

Looking at Parson? There's only one song that comes to mind, unless he's shrunk down to Erfworld size now......

"Oh, no! There goes Tokyo! Go, go, GODZILLA!"

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 01:41 AM
May I get some help with those acronym sound effects?

YTMND? I saw a link above that this has something to do with Star Wars?

NSFW? Not safe for work? What's not safe? The shockamancy?

4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

I think I'm revealing my age with this post.

Hectonkhyres
2009-01-24, 01:44 AM
It seems the mortal hand of my god has taken to the field. Truly, these are glorious days filled with sights both horrible and wonderful.

Godskook
2009-01-24, 01:48 AM
I think I just wet myself.

Kyouhen
2009-01-24, 01:53 AM
Regarding the exploding crap golem, I'm pretty sure that wasn't part of the spell. He looks like he was just sitting there waiting for Sizemore to pop him.

Also, are the two warlords out of the battle or was that strike just to start picking away at their HP?

Winged One
2009-01-24, 01:53 AM
May I get some help with those acronym sound effects?

YTMND? I saw a link above that this has something to do with Star Wars?

NSFW? Not safe for work? What's not safe? The shockamancy?

4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

I think I'm revealing my age with this post.
Afraid so. YTMND is a bunch of looped sound clips that have pictures or text attached. There's also stuff like this (http://pi.ytmnd.com/), I just picked that one because, well, it's a trap.
The things that the shockamancy incantations reference are extremely NSFW.
4chan is basicly the dark abyss of the internet from which horrors like the things the shockamancy incantations reference arise. Some silly amusing things come from there too, though.

Magnor Criol
2009-01-24, 01:57 AM
May I get some help with those acronym sound effects?

YTMND? I saw a link above that this has something to do with Star Wars?

NSFW? Not safe for work? What's not safe? The shockamancy?

4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

I think I'm revealing my age with this post.

Simplest to explain first: "NSFW" is, indeed, "Not Safe For Work"; here I think it's just a related acronym, and the fact that those are literally exploding feces golems.

"YTMND" is a...well, it's sorta difficult to explain. It stands for "You're The Man Now Dog" and is a sort of massive collection of short gif images, at least that's what its main output is. People upload little short gif-image loops synced (often poorly) to a short audio loop...but I don't think that's all YTMND does, I just don't know it that well.

4chan is, honestly, the quintessential internet in many ways. It's not a hacker site directly, though many that frequent it are hackers. It's really just an image board, and a very very NSFW one at that, in some of its sections. The mentality of the group on 4chan is...very interesting, from a social sciences standpoint.

I really haven't answered much, I don't think. Best way to learn is to go to UrbanDictionary.com and type in "YTMND" and "4chan" and read on; be forewarned, however, that 4chan is much like cthulu, in that even just perusing information about it can drive you insane. =p

BRC
2009-01-24, 02:01 AM
Only Sizemore could ride into battle on the shoulders of a Mister T-Golem...

dr pepper
2009-01-24, 02:08 AM
Shockamancy:

See also Appalling, Traumatic, Ghastly, Atrocious, Toxic, "Things You Can't Unsee".

Gloverboy
2009-01-24, 02:12 AM
This was 31 flavors of wonderful. Way to set up us the bomb!

Jimor
2009-01-24, 02:13 AM
Ewww, the NSFW effect stuff is YELLOW. What's yellow and associated with crap? :smallyuk:

Sholos
2009-01-24, 02:19 AM
Epic troll.

That was my first thought on seeing what the nuke consisted of.

factotum
2009-01-24, 02:34 AM
Simplest to explain first: "NSFW" is, indeed, "Not Safe For Work"; here I think it's just a related acronym, and the fact that those are literally exploding feces golems.


The crap golem explodes some time after the NSFW. Given Parson's orders (find a leadership stack, shock it, and crap it), one assumes the NSFW is simply something so horrible that it will shock the brains of anyone seeing it (other than the caster), which then leaves them helpless for the crap golem explosion.

Incidentally, YTMND stands for "You're The Man Now, Dog", which is kind of appropriate for the wiener-dog rammers regardless of what you normally find under that acronym.

Doran
2009-01-24, 02:45 AM
Sizemore is not wearing any pants.
Why is he not wearing any pants?!

Kind of thematically appropriate though. :smallyuk:

Tubercular Ox
2009-01-24, 02:50 AM
May I get some help with those acronym sound effects?

YTMND? I saw a link above that this has something to do with Star Wars?

NSFW? Not safe for work? What's not safe? The shockamancy?

4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

I think I'm revealing my age with this post.

It's innocent people like you that make me feel this comic is way outside the family friendly atmosphere of the story. If you should google any of the incantations, it would be beyond NSFW.... not safe for work can be as tame as too many bikini clad women on one page. Those incantations are reference to stuff rated X, and designed to gross you out as well. Well, meatspin just makes me laugh... but I'm a sick, sick puppy.

4chan, a hacker group? A handful of script kiddies and a massive swarm of wannabes. And no shop talk, which you think a hacker group would have. Because the board is anonymous, malicious pranksters like to reference the board as their calling card... and this can include more normal pranks and not just computer vandalism. Like when one brave member called in to some public radio and/or tv show and got on the air and dropped injoke after injoke. I used to love the place, back in 2005. Then it changed. Oldfag is old. And when you understand that, your journey to the dark side will be complete.

Anyways, for me the jury on Shockmancy is still out. A lot of jurors are registering in with "Emotional shock," but the yellow blasts still leave the option of "multilayered pun" and some physical damage as well. Although Parson may find himself immune to Shockmancy... how's that for value?

And let's remember that at least one member of the coalition agreed to Ansom's plan whole heartedly.

But Sizemore's attack feels early. If the plan is to get the troops into the courtyard before creating nice big piles of corpses for uncroaking, this might give Ansom the opportunity to realize his mistake and pull back before the worst happens. Sure, the troops might have less of a bonus now... but that just makes it harder for them to breach the walls and get them where Parson wants them. OTOH, Ansom may feel pressured and become more desperate to end the battle quickly.

MadMaw
2009-01-24, 02:55 AM
The crap golem explodes some time after the NSFW. Given Parson's orders (find a leadership stack, shock it, and crap it), one assumes the NSFW is simply something so horrible that it will shock the brains of anyone seeing it (other than the caster), which then leaves them helpless for the crap golem explosion.

OK, people are struggling to work out what Shockamancy does. The simplest and easiest, but by no means most enjoyable, way to understand is to visit some of the sites from Sizemores "magic" words. Note your experiences.

There are links from the relevant wikipedia/urban dictionary articles:

Lemonparty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_site#Lemonparty.org)
Tubgirl (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tubgirl)
Meatspin (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meatspin.com)
Goatse! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse.cx)

Given that Erfworld censors expletives and is generally kid-friendly, I imagine that these images would be even more devastating to the natives than on us hardened Internet veterans.

It's a guess, but I would say that crap golems have the inherent ability to explode (although maybe it can only be triggered by a warlord or the caster pulling their finger?) rather than it be part of the spell.

Although it's impossible to tell, you would assume that Ansom is talking to Duke Nozzle and the female warlord who got crapped when he said "When the entrance is breached, rush your infantry. All of it". Assuming they are out of action, he's going to need someone else to lead the charge (the angry redhead?). Even it they are still able to act as warlords, based on Parsons comments from the previous strip, their effectiveness as leaders is going to be compromised for some time after this.

Roupe
2009-01-24, 03:19 AM
So did you think sofaking and the siege commandress got captured, collected or croaked?

Im thinking captured or collected, since
They could carry items, to get for item pileup.
they can may be converted into ascets (uncroaked warlords)
Wanda like prisoners

The Old Hack
2009-01-24, 03:31 AM
The Wiener-Rams really saved my day. *is still snickering madly* :smallamused:

Tundar
2009-01-24, 04:19 AM
Pull my finger.

Fart jokes never gets old :smallbiggrin:

keeganknorr
2009-01-24, 04:21 AM
by far my favorite page of the whole comic strip. I'm pretty sure the two warlords are dead given the size of the explosion and how they were being held in the center of it.

Also, if you notice, they both called they're forces towards them, which is the exact oppositte thing you want to do for an area of effect spell

Dystopianman
2009-01-24, 04:23 AM
I'm pretty sure that Shockamancy is best compared to evocation/invocation/direct damage. Given that all the names of the schools and classes of magic in Erfworld are on the cute side, I would bet that Shockamancy is so named because it sounds the cutest of all the potential names for this school i.e. as opposed to "fireballamancy" "nukamancy" or "blastamancy"

I interpret Shockamancy the above, considering it's in the same class as Croakamancy and Deletionism...which uses both motion and matter A fireball (or in this particular case, multiple energy bolts (fire? force? energy?)) most assuredly uses motion (fireball from point a to point b) and matter (fireball)

Therefore, while Croakamancy is necromancy and deletionism is... death spells? power word kill? disintegrate? no examples on that one. Shockamancy is to put it in simple terms "blow you up" I bet a pure Shockamancer would resemble the classic mage hurling fireballs, lightning bolts, and other things.

In terms of Erfworld, I'd bet a Shockamancer would be treated as artillery...if the spell that Wanda cast on Jillian's forces and Charlie's Archons is any indicator.

With that aside, I do have one question which has been nagging the heck outta me. Why, oh why, does the RCC not seem to have ANY casters other than healers? That strikes me as a strategic blunder. It's like today's armies going into battle without their recon satellites (lookamancy) artillery (shockamancy) and camouflage (foolamancy). Talk about being unprepared for a conflict...

EDIT: because I know it'll come up inevitably, I humbly propose that the Crap Golem explosion is a purely Dirtamancer effect as opposed to a Shockamancy effect. I'd bet that blowing up 4Chan style is either something that a Crap Golem can do naturally (think infested Terran from Starcraft) or otherwise is a spell that a Dirtamancer can cast on his golems to make them do so. My proof? Sizemore, who freely admits that all he's good at is Dirtamancy, needed a scroll to cast the magic bolts that multi-targeted the enemies in front of him. He needed no such thing to pull off the Crap Golem explosion...merely pulling it's finger did the trick.

Varthonai
2009-01-24, 04:43 AM
Caramel Dansen?

Oh man. That is too intense for words.

That calls for its own fan-made Flash animation, even if it doesn't happen in the comic. Loop of Anime Parson and Anime Wanda doing CaramellDansen. I hope someone's up to the challenge because I can't animate for boop.

I can totally see that! They both have body shapes that would look extremely amusing while doing the dance.

Rockphed
2009-01-24, 04:45 AM
by far my favorite page of the whole comic strip. I'm pretty sure the two warlords are dead given the size of the explosion and how they were being held in the center of it.

Also, if you notice, they both called they're forces towards them, which is the exact oppositte thing you want to do for an area of effect spell

The warlords were pretty much taken out of the action when the Golem grabbed them. I go for the "Captured or Collected" angle myself.

Vatharian
2009-01-24, 04:53 AM
couldn't breathe, was laughing so hard :D

Rob, Jamie - you're both twisted geniuses of insanity.

MattR
2009-01-24, 04:54 AM
The two warlords are croaked, either from being slammed together in panel 7 (apparently warlords putting their heads together for the RCC is a bad thing every time.) or finished by the spell. In panel 9 that same golem doesnt appear to be holding anything.

Sizemore couldnt continue to do these hit and run's if his golems continued to capture troops, carrying them around would restrict the golems and in the heat of battle there'll be little time to run them to a dungeon.

Awesome, awsome page! :)

DragoonKain
2009-01-24, 05:02 AM
Sizemore has gone from taking everyone's crap to being one of the best resources the Knob has.

Notice the obsession about taking out the casters wherever they appear. Even the lowliest of low casters seem to be powerful beyond belief...

Maxymiuk
2009-01-24, 05:20 AM
Panel 6 bothers me. They're warlords, for cripe's sake. And they don't have their weapons with them? During the Coalition's turn? While laying siege to a city? In the middle of what, even mostly pacified, still is a combat zone?

Yuki Akuma
2009-01-24, 05:28 AM
Sizemore has gone from taking everyone's crap to being one of the best resources the Knob has.

Notice the obsession about taking out the casters wherever they appear. Even the lowliest of low casters seem to be powerful beyond belief...

I don't see any indication that Sizemore is a lowly Caster... just that Stanley doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with a Dirtamancer. Why he popped one I'll never know, unless you can only decide to pop a generic Caster and won't know which type you'll get.

KeiranHalcyon
2009-01-24, 05:32 AM
Heh. Should have expected as much from Naughtymancy.

Dystopianman
2009-01-24, 05:39 AM
I don't see any indication that Sizemore is a lowly Caster... just that Stanley doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with a Dirtamancer. Why he popped one I'll never know, unless you can only decide to pop a generic Caster and won't know which type you'll get.

I would tend to agree that Sizemore is no lowly caster. From the way he was able to almost single-handedly take out Webinar and Dora (with some backup from the spider cav Parson sent), I would say that he's a high level caster. I suspect that it was Saline IV and not Stanley that originally popped Sizemore

Turbidus
2009-01-24, 06:02 AM
My guess is that the coalition leaders weren't croaked, but had their leadership reduced by the shock scroll and by being covered in crap. And I'd also guess that combining two leadership penalties from different sources can be more powerful than doubling up on either source (for example, shockmancy might take leadership (said to be a force multiplier - perhaps literally) down to, say, 2 but not below, golem hitting the fan might be a flat -1 leadership penalty) and combining them in this order could literally take out the leadership. Probably temporarily though.

Then again, my history with guessing here isn't particularly impressive.

Lemarc
2009-01-24, 06:09 AM
I would tend to agree that Sizemore is no lowly caster. From the way he was able to almost single-handedly take out Webinar and Dora (with some backup from the spider cav Parson sent), I would say that he's a high level caster. I suspect that it was Saline IV and not Stanley that originally popped Sizemore
We know this for a fact.



With that aside, I do have one question which has been nagging the heck outta me. Why, oh why, does the RCC not seem to have ANY casters other than healers? That strikes me as a strategic blunder. It's like today's armies going into battle without their recon satellites (lookamancy) artillery (shockamancy) and camouflage (foolamancy). Talk about being unprepared for a conflict...
IIRC, it's been said that casters are too rare and too valuable to needlessly risk. The RCC was expecting an easy victory through overwhelming numbers, so why send such valuable resources along to potentially be lost? GK, by contrast, is defending their home turf.

Goshen
2009-01-24, 06:11 AM
I just loved looking up all the acronyms.

Someone on this thread pointed out that the coalition appears to have no casters, and it's killing me that I can't find the post again so I can quote it. :smallredface:

My guess is that most warlords keep their casters under lock and key, not willing to risk them in battle in the field. Parson has no choice, which is why he nearly lost Sizemore in the tunnel battle--he was down to his last 1/2 golem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html) before Sizemore finally croaked Dora and Webinar. Wanda nearly croaked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0135.html). Sizemore is still making himself a target which his hit-and-run attacks. Probably the allied coalition leaders were willing to lend troops, but not valuable casters.

Finally, it is still odd that Ansom didn't bring any jetstone casters. We can chalk it up to his overly militaristic mind. Part of Ansom's problem may be that he is commanding too large a force. It could be said that Napoleon got sloppy when he attacked Russia, when he was finally commanding a giant army and had too many years of people telling him how great he was.

The really chilling thing is that I have actually made some of the mistakes that Ansom is making, in other wargames. I even wrote a wargame that my friends like to play, but one of them consistently beat me at it. My own game! Well, I'm an inventor and he's a lawyer. Different kinds of minds....

Dystopianman
2009-01-24, 06:21 AM
We know this for a fact.


IIRC, it's been said that casters are too rare and too valuable to needlessly risk. The RCC was expecting an easy victory through overwhelming numbers, so why send such valuable resources along to potentially be lost? GK, by contrast, is defending their home turf.

Hmm, good point, when the RCC started the campaign after Manpower got croaked, they (or at least Ansom) assumed that Stanley had no one left to lead his forces, so I guess it would make sense to assume that victory would be almost assured at that point.

Makes me wonder though, what would the range on Lookamancy spells be? Parson was able to use Stanley's linked caster setup to direct battles very far from GK (dragons having 50+ move and all). Wouldn't talented Lookamancers be able to provide recon from the safety of nearby allied cities or strongpoints? Unless being linked to other casters provides some ungodly tremendous bonus to range among other things. If thats the case then, I wonder what the standard range for these kinds of spells would be.

rosebud
2009-01-24, 06:34 AM
Panel 6 bothers me. They're warlords, for cripe's sake. And they don't have their weapons with them? During the Coalition's turn? While laying siege to a city?Richard the Lion-hearted was killed from afar while laying siege to a city. It happens. They were away from the combat and were not expecting crap to hit them.

Anyhow, I love how Ansom's costume can make him look either cool or pathetic, depending on his expression.

Yuki Akuma
2009-01-24, 06:42 AM
I would tend to agree that Sizemore is no lowly caster. From the way he was able to almost single-handedly take out Webinar and Dora (with some backup from the spider cav Parson sent), I would say that he's a high level caster. I suspect that it was Saline IV and not Stanley that originally popped Sizemore

Oh! I forgot, Sizemore was around when Saline IV was croaked. Yeah, that makes much more sense.

I still like my idea of "Overlord decides to pop Caster, but not which flavour", though.

T-O-E
2009-01-24, 06:48 AM
Shockmancy rocks!

ReccaSquirrel
2009-01-24, 07:33 AM
4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

I think I'm revealing my age with this post.

4chan is a webpage that I advise any sane person avoid. It is basically a group of channels that each favor some sort of subject or another. I mention this only because you might see a /b/ or perhaps a /r/ reference later. Those are 4chan channels.

In anycase, to give you just a remote idea as to how dark of a pit 4chan can be, /b/ claims to have at least caused two confirmed suicides. On the other hand, they once had someone post about how they were going to kill a bunch of people at their school the next day and contacted local authorities. Turns out the guy's claim was true.

What is seen on /b/ on 4chan can not be unseen.

Hatu
2009-01-24, 07:34 AM
I'm still not seeing why this attack by Ansom is a mistake:seems to me that Sizemore could pull his NSFW attacks on his turn at least as effectively.

Lots of fun details, though.

-H

kukn
2009-01-24, 07:42 AM
I have to say this strip was spectacularly awesome! A real diamond :)

All of your strips lately are brilliant, but I don't think you cn top this one easily, gj Rob and Jamie!

OverdrivePrime
2009-01-24, 08:31 AM
Bwaaaahahahahaaha! Sizemore set them up the bomb! Wow. This comic rules with an obscene hand. Love it. I'm going to be chuckling about this for hours. :smallbiggrin:

kreszantas
2009-01-24, 08:50 AM
Overall some of the best action yet! Now on to the webculture comments. Some of these definitions are not so shocking if we look back at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0014.html panel 8... I have stated this before in previous threads, but look up some of those bookmarks on your own NSFW guidelines. 4chan bah bunch of wannabes... they could do not something as successful as take out the AOL's whole westcoast (interLATA) if they wanted to and this was done back in the 90's they only really pranksters and ones with Alistiar Crowley fascinations anymore. The 3 chants yes... boy I would love control of the W3C long enough to remove that from the web and give myself a bucket of brain bleach... and the icky feeling wont go away ayeeeee!

HandofShadows
2009-01-24, 09:06 AM
Well we know more of what kind of crap Sizemore can pull (pun intended). It's not Ansom that was stupid this time. It was those warlords. Being on a battlefield without a weapon? Especialy a battelfield where you know that there are flying enemies around not having a weapon at hand is dumb. Or at least highly arrogant.

Not only has the RCC lost two warlords (I think they might have been captured, but it's hard to say) they also lost a fair number of troops in the "blast". Did a fair portion of Ansom's support or reserve just got taken out? I don't think those warlords will be easy to replace as it seems like a lot of their staff where probably taken out as well.

And did anyone notice that the weapons used by the TCC troops look like those used by the Orcs in the LotR movie?

Dystopianman
2009-01-24, 09:21 AM
Y'know I've just realized something, correct me if I'm wrong, but judging from the uniforms of the two Warlords that were croaked, and the fact that one of them was Duke Nozzle, a warlord that was obviously the leading field warlord of the Sofa King faction in this army, I would speculate that the other warlord that was croaked was the leading field warlord of another -seperate- allied faction of the RCC (Unaroyal? Foxmud?)

This means that in one fell swoop, Parson just took out the leading field warlords (in this army) of two different allied factions of the RCC. I wonder what the implications are. Sofa King -alone- was the third highest contributor of troops, 981 according to the info Parson got with his Stupid meal. If the other warlord was from Unaroyal, then that would mean that 2695 troops could potentially lose a vital bonus...subject to how the combat bonus system actually works.

TheTurnipKing
2009-01-24, 09:22 AM
I read the strip quickly and stopped when I saw tubgirl. I knew the others had to be just as unsavory. This strip definitely covers the crap of the internet. Can't wait for the next one!

Also I find the fact that Ansom ordered Hamster captured interesting. I think that Charlie made that as part of the renegotiated contract. That and Hamster's wrist calculator.

Unlikely. Ansom actually states that the capturers spoils willl be forfeit if Hamster is croaked, so we can probably assume that this is a general Effworld mechanic. Though maybe not, since IIRC, Jillian's hat didn't wind up with the capturers.

Though this assumes that the hat doesn't have any special rules, or that it's not some kind of item, seperate from the unit's "special" gear.

Deimos_
2009-01-24, 09:24 AM
One of the best strips yet IMO. :smalltongue:

I think it's too late to say to the people that didn't get the references that this time, it's not very safe to google them. :smallsigh:

SteveD
2009-01-24, 09:33 AM
I'm still not seeing why this attack by Ansom is a mistake:seems to me that Sizemore could pull his NSFW attacks on his turn at least as effectively.

Lots of fun details, though.

-H

Don't forget the Archons. All the NSFW attacks did was croak (or capture) a leadership stack, it didn't croak troops of the volume Parson would need to un-croak to face the Archons; that comes next. :smalltongue:

Also, it seems the red-warlord is still at large? And Ansom has at least some troops left after the tunnels?

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-24, 09:39 AM
Well we know more of what kind of crap Sizemore can pull (pun intended). It's not Ansom that was stupid this time. It was those warlords. Being on a battlefield without a weapon? Especialy a battelfield where you know that there are flying enemies around not having a weapon at hand is dumb. Or at least highly arrogant.All of GK's flying units were re-croaked earlier this turn.

And in any case, Charlie has the airspace saturated with death rays, so flying units are definitely a non-issue.

Only Ansom saw Sizemore pop up before to defend Wanda, and that was when the territory was still held by GK.
Popping up behind the lines with a powerful, compact burst of golems and spells to strike the coalition leaders? Plenty of surprise.
None of these particular leaders have faced Parson's plans before, other than the siege hit and run. To be fair, the leaders weren't involved in that, and was conventional enough that it was assumed to be Stanley getting a lucky idea.

Zolem
2009-01-24, 09:48 AM
Oh man. That is too intense for words.

That calls for its own fan-made Flash animation, even if it doesn't happen in the comic. Loop of Anime Parson and Anime Wanda doing CaramellDansen. I hope someone's up to the challenge because I can't animate for boop.

I can totally see that! They both have body shapes that would look extremely amusing while doing the dance.

*imagines PArson dancing* ...OH GOD!@ MIND BLEACH MIND BLEACH I GOT SHOCKAMANCIED!

Altima
2009-01-24, 10:07 AM
*imagines PArson dancing* ...OH GOD!@ MIND BLEACH MIND BLEACH I GOT SHOCKAMANCIED!

And then you realize the similarities between Parson and the (in)famous guy who sings the Numa Numa song on the intertubing...

Miklus
2009-01-24, 10:11 AM
Do NOT google those acronymes! Not unless you want to learn about shockamancy first-hand! :smalleek:

mistformsquirrl
2009-01-24, 10:17 AM
Shockamancy now officially terrifies me <o.o> I already knew those terms, btu when I saw them in the comic I had a sort of flashback and my brain melted. Again.

Also this may have been the single most hilarious Erfworld ever. <3 this comic >_<

Lamech
2009-01-24, 10:41 AM
The warlords should have been on Ansom's carpet if they were chief warlords. Parson had total control of the space directly below them AND they couldn't predict attacks from tunnel units... if they were chief warlords I highly suspect that the coalition just lost two juicy bonuses...

Secondly, Ansom might want Parson because Parson is highly competent? But yeah Parson is almost certainly part of the deal with Charlie; Charlie is too smart to pass up a major expansion of his business. (Or miss a competent chief warlord if he has hidden motivations.)

chaoschristian
2009-01-24, 10:53 AM
"Croaking him will forfeit your spoils."

On the surface I read this as an obvious reveal of at least one part of Ansom's deal with Charlies: that he has to capture Parson and turn him over to Charlie in the event that the RCC is successful in its assault against GK.

But I think it also reveals two other things:

1. It is consistent with Ansom's character: he issues an order in the context of a threat but doesn't bother to explain why. It's just a matter or do this or face negative consequences. It's in-line with Ansom's top-down, command and control paradigm (which interestingly enough is very similar to The Tool's own style, making them more alike than Ansom would want to admit to I think.)

2. It also may reveal another condition of Charlie's contract: namely that if Parson is booped, then the price of the contract for Ansom increases. In other words, deliver Parson to me alive and pay $$$ schmuckers, but kill him and pay $$$$$$$$$ to me for saving your boop.

HandofShadows
2009-01-24, 11:08 AM
It's in-line with Ansom's top-down, command and control paradigm (which interestingly enough is very similar to The Tool's own style, making them more alike than Ansom would want to admit to I think.)

I was wondering how many other people noticed that. Ansom and Stanley are in many ways very similar to each other. In other ways they are just the opposite, but are still alike in those differences.

tribble
2009-01-24, 11:12 AM
Afraid so. YTMND is a bunch of looped sound clips that have pictures or text attached. There's also stuff like this (http://pi.ytmnd.com/), I just picked that one because, well, it's a trap.


I'm going to hug you over the internet for this.

*hug*
:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

EDIT: I think you meant this (http://itsatraprap.ytmnd.com/), but the Pi song is much better.:smallbiggrin:

Sotharsyl
2009-01-24, 11:31 AM
This whole why didn't they have swords with them question intrigues me one possible explanation I have is this on a unit level the rules are more RPG-y as in swords add encumbrance if they're near the limit or something remember Jillian wanted to go "scouting" in full heavy armor for increased defence but Ansom made her take the hat for actual scouting if so the general numbers atack defense etc seem to be pretty low overall TBS style makes me wonder if they equip RPG style how powerfull are armor components individualy as a set etc there could be a lot of advantages for Parson in this area.
Also notice the male warlord doesn't call for a weapon but for soldiers, a retinue even could he be more of a int based warlord with great leadership bonus but poor combat stats.

chaoschristian
2009-01-24, 11:55 AM
Or it could be an affect of being a Lord of any kind within the general culture of the RCC.

Carrying weapons and such around is much too important for one of such station, even in battle, until an actual charge or heroic action is needed. Think of those two as Victorian era officers, standing behind the front lines, making witty observations and gay banter about the 'goings on' of the battle, when suddenly, 'Boop!'

I think it's part of the overall character and flavour of the RCC that the creators are portraying. These folks really don't know what they're in for, or what and who they are up against.

Speculatively, Erfworld wars may have an element of 'gentlemanly' to them that is now changing because of Parson's introduction into the system.

Or it could be that just because you're a War Lord doesn't necessarily mean that you're also smart.

MReav
2009-01-24, 12:23 PM
I don't see any indication that Sizemore is a lowly Caster... just that Stanley doesn't seem to have any idea what to do with a Dirtamancer. Why he popped one I'll never know, unless you can only decide to pop a generic Caster and won't know which type you'll get.

Sizemore was popped under King Saline IV, Stanley's predecessor. And Dirtamancers have very utilitarian functions, being able to dig through solid rock, which is useful for mining.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0086.html

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-24, 12:29 PM
Also notice the male warlord doesn't call for a weapon but for soldiers, a retinue even could he be more of a int based warlord with great leadership bonus but poor combat stats.

This is what proves Ansom's incompetence. If he warned his warlords about the dirtmancer and golems, why would they be separated from their retinue and unarmed?!? The importance of multipliers is common knowledge in Erfworld (c.f. Caesar and the bats), so it should be standard practice to protect your warlords well when they are susceptible to attack, yet the warlords were unarmed and none of the coalition's strongest units (Cloth golems, sourmanders, etc.) were nearby to guard them.

SteveMB
2009-01-24, 12:49 PM
This is what proves Ansom's incompetence. If he warned his warlords about the dirtmancer and golems, why would they be separated from their retinue and unarmed?!? The importance of multipliers is common knowledge in Erfworld (c.f. Caesar and the bats), so it should be standard practice to protect your warlords well when they are susceptible to attack, yet the warlords were unarmed and none of the coalition's strongest units (Cloth golems, sourmanders, etc.) were nearby to guard them.

If Ansom's allies find out that he saw Sizemore's golems use this surprise-popup tactic before but neglected to warn them to be on the lookout for it, that ought to put a few more cracks in the Coalition.... :smalleek:

shadowdemon_lord
2009-01-24, 12:55 PM
I think it was a simple matter of bad communication between RCC leaders. The strike in the tunnels was such a complete victory that little information as to Sizemores powers and retinue would have escaped. All the RCC learned from that encounter is that Parson and that he clearly has tricks up his sleeves that no one can predict. Very little intellignence was actually relayed back from the fight. The fact that that trick is a master class dirtamancer surrounded by a retinue of golems (where is the acid rock golem?) was unkown. Thus, the warlords had no reason to expect a counter attack. Of course Ansom could have told them about Sizemore, but he didn't. Also, without the stunning powers of shockmancy Sizemores attack wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

Anyway, my guess is that those warlords (along with some troops) just got croaked. They just got the boop beaten out of them by golems, and then were subjected to a bomb. Also, it'd be kind of lame to see Sizemores epic attack fail so badly.

SteveMB
2009-01-24, 12:56 PM
My guess is that the coalition leaders weren't croaked, but had their leadership reduced by the shock scroll and by being covered in crap.

If Stanley's reason for wanting "the most handsome and dashing" of his surviving living Men was that those traits correlate with base Leadership (by Erfword mechanics), that would make sense. It's hard to be handsome or dashing when covered in crap.

Caledonian
2009-01-24, 01:08 PM
That... that was a moment of perfect beauty.

Sirs, I am pleased to announce that you're going to the Special Hell.

BarGamer
2009-01-24, 01:14 PM
And did anyone notice that the weapons used by the TCC troops look like those used by the Orcs in the LotR movie?

I'm SO glad you posted that first! I noticed it too, but didn't want to reveal myself as the rabid LOTR fan that I am. :smallbiggrin:

The Tower of Efdup needs a giant glowing Eye. And some wide-eyed kid needs to angst about jewelry. Or even better, both get trampled upon, like in Sluggy Freelance. (I think.)

WILD SPECULATION: Of course, you realize that whoever owns those soldiers will simply HAVE to defect to GW's side now, if only to maintain the illusion that GW are the "bad guys."

Kaolix
2009-01-24, 01:14 PM
Absolutely hilarious. First time in quite a while something has made me literally laugh out loud. 4chan sound effect was wonderfully appropriate. Having been watching the activities of /b/ for the last couple of days now out of boredom, I don't think anything can describe it better than a thermo-poop-lear explosion.

Vreejack
2009-01-24, 01:21 PM
The poo bomb is almost certainly all Sizemore's doing. The reason he never used it in combat earlier is that he had no way to fix the leadership in one spot while he made his escape. Units are probably very reluctant to stand by while an enemy caster is fleeing, especially while a bombs is about to explode. It was only with the shockamancy attack that Sizemore had a way to make them stand still for that.

scotchmonger
2009-01-24, 01:30 PM
This is what proves Ansom's incompetence. If he warned his warlords about the dirtmancer and golems, why would they be separated from their retinue and unarmed?!? The importance of multipliers is common knowledge in Erfworld (c.f. Caesar and the bats), so it should be standard practice to protect your warlords well when they are susceptible to attack, yet the warlords were unarmed and none of the coalition's strongest units (Cloth golems, sourmanders, etc.) were nearby to guard them.

More a case of bad assumptions based on bad information I think. As Parson said, "you can't be strong everywhere". RCC is prepping a major offensive and shifted their strength accordingly -- Heavies to guard the siege stacks in order to give infantry the opportunity to swarm. They need to bring the max force to bear directly on the walls with immediate infantry follow-through.

Looking this over, I think the warlords were caught immediately (seconds) after Ansom took off to give his speech. Panels 1-4 are Ansom giving initial instructions, Panel 5 both warlords are watching this and talking, Panel 6&7 they're grabbed and played like cymbals with barely enough time to be surprised.

I disagree that the importance of multipliers is common knowledge -- Vinny is the only one to have mentioned it and I think they discovered it more as a side effect of being blessed with mass quantities of ultra weak troops.

Erfworld residents use the bonuses when they can but I think Parson's right -- they don't stack and stack except by accident. Strip 71 - needs to croak Jillian to elliminate her leadership bonus (9), Strip 72 - "Artifact Bonus piled on the Leader bonus", "That was not winnable". And yet in strip 113 - Jillian is clueless again -- She doesn't think it can be done until Vinny explains it -- even though she and Ansom were part of the attack where the bonuses were all in their favor. What Parson saw that everyone else missed is that by stacking bonuses and concentrating them on your strongest units instead of beefing up the weak, you can make a mega stack (or two) with a limited attack exposure -- Erfworld's first special forces.

Don't forget that he is also compromising -- with all the heavy hitters in only a couple of stacks, the rest of his army is so much paper-mache if there were any way for him to get flanked. It's only going to work this well because he's against the wall and only has one place left to defend.

Long first post. I hope I've explained myself well.

BarGamer
2009-01-24, 01:54 PM
@scotch: tl;dr :smallwink:

Just kidding, you did just fine. Good point on the compare and contrast to Transylvania Style combat. I did indeed miss that Parson's putting his STRONGEST in the stack, rather than tons of Gobwins or whatever.

As long as Ansom doesn't get clever and pull some kind of Donut of Doom response, Parson's well on his way to ultimate victory. Assuming Stanley doesn't show up at the most inconvenient time possible...

shadowdemon_lord
2009-01-24, 01:58 PM
Good post Scotchmonger, just a couple nitpicks. The first is that the Sizemore/golem combo is not super effective because he's stacking bonuses, the only bonus on the golems is Sizemores, although I will grant it's a large one. The effectiveness of the Sizemore/golem combo is not that they are a mega stack (anymore so then a group of heavies with a decent warlord at their head would be), but that they can strike from an area no one else can, and retreat in the same fashion. This ability to truly cherrypick targets is virtually unique to a side without total air superiority, and probably is unique in that it is just as hard for air units to fight them as it is ground units.

Also, he may have the heavy hitters in a single stack, but the rest of his units are not weak, and barring a way for the enemy to cherry pick the leadership (which I don't think flanking would do, as he could just go to the middle) he has a very sound strategy.

teratorn
2009-01-24, 02:00 PM
About not using casters in war. GK once held eleven cities and they had only five casters, at least two of them captured to other sodes. And as we know captured units have low loyalty. My guess is that casters are very rare. Particularly loyal ones. Besides the kings are at home and casters are probably important to protect the city after sending so many troops to fight far from it.

And sizemore's attack. If it were not for shockamancy he'd have been engaged, every unit was going after him. Given the value of casters this kind of attack (risking a caster to get a warlord) may look strange to Erfworlders.


I wonder how RCC's will react when Jillian tells them that the guys who are responsible for Stanley being alive and Parson still holding the city (Wanda and Jack) were once Faq units.

For Parson it would be better if Sizemore took the warlords alive. Duke Nozzle is probably easy to convince into asking his king to leave the coalition.

HandofShadows
2009-01-24, 02:17 PM
I wonder how RCC's will react when Jillian tells them that the guys who are responsible for Stanley being alive and Parson still holding the city (Wanda and Jack) were once Faq units.


Probably will not matter to them one bit. Many still don't know about Faq (and some who have been told don't seem to belive it 100%) and those that do would assume there is a powerfull loyalty spell on them.

They would just be ticked that GK didn't fall, a lot of troops where lost and huge amount of money wasted. A huge of blame is likely going to head Ansom's way for this. :smallcool:

Kaed
2009-01-24, 02:40 PM
Notice the obsession about taking out the casters wherever they appear. Even the lowliest of low casters seem to be powerful beyond belief...

Of course they are. Think about what we know so far - Warlords give bonuses to other units by being around, and they can direct them. That's about it, in addition to fighting.

I wonder if anyone remembers that casters, too, can do that? I think they are basically UPGRADED warlords that only give bonuses to creatures related to their art, and can cast powerful magic. As a balancing point, they all seem to have very little health, ala Sizemore and Wanda almost dying within the span of less than three turns.

Haven't you noticed how few casters there are even in this massive battle? We've got (well had. Misty croaked) a caster from each Axis of Eyemancy, A dirtamancer, and a croakamancer (all of which I might are on Gobwin Knobs side). That's 4 casters in the whole of this huge battle that we know about.

You people seem to think that the healers in this battle are all Healomancers. I don't think they are. I've noticed that when people address a caster by rank it's ways "(blank)mancer". However, Ansom refers to them all has simply 'healers'. No one ever calls Wanda a croaker or Sizemore 'the dirter'. Futhermore, from earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html) comics we know that the Lofty Elves and Altruistic Elves are the ones healing (and I'd assume the ones in nurse outfits are the latter).

We know already that there is such a thing as 'natural Thinkamancy'. Why not natural magic in other units? Perhaps those two races simply are natural at healing. But seeing as there are so many of them and they all look alike (casters seem to be distinct in this world) I would also assume that they do not come close to the level of a REAL Healomancer.

Imagine something like the opposite of Wanda in a battle, bringing back whole armies from the brink of death!

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 02:52 PM
Panel 7
The golem smashes Duke Nozzel and the other Warlord together.

Panel 8
You can see the same golem that grabbed the warlords on the left. He is fighting something, but we can't see what. His right hand is empty which suggests that one of the warlords got away or has been finished off.

Panel 9
We can still see the golem that grabbed the warlords on the left. He is standing with his arms folded as one shockamancy blast streaks past him. This suggests that the golem has already taken care of one of the warlords and that at least one was still alive for the poop bomb.

I do not think any of the warlords was captured.

Ganurath
2009-01-24, 02:58 PM
Panel 8
You can see the same golem that grabbed the warlords on the left. He is fighting something, but we can't see what. His right hand is empty which suggests that one of the warlords got away or has been finished off.That's not the same golem. In 7 and 9, Sizemore is facing away from the camera, so that if the direct he's facing is north than we're viewing from above and slightly south. In panel 8, we're viewing from north at groun level, so the golem you're referring is on the opposite side of the pit from the warlord buster.

That being said, there was only one blast seen going toward Warlord Grappler, so your analysis seems to stand regardless.

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 03:03 PM
Towards the beginning of the series, Ansom states that the RCC has 4 times the forces needed to take out the GK. This is before he retains Charlie's services.

Now, Ansom is trying to storm the garrison with 50% of his original forces. (I still don't count Charlie in this as the Archons are unable to contriubte this turn.) This means he only has 2 times the forces needed to take GK. Once you subtract the warlord bonus (chief warlord bonus?) that number drops even further.

If those two were chief warlords, then we could look at half of the coallition's forces becoming half as effective. Thus, the RCC would only have 1.5 times the forces needed to take the garrison.

This is suddenly very winnable for Parson. I can't wait to see he, Wanda, and the zombies doing a Thriller dance fight.

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 03:08 PM
That's not the same golem. In 7 and 9, Sizemore is facing away from the camera, so that if the direct he's facing is north than we're viewing from above and slightly south. In panel 8, we're viewing from north at groun level, so the golem you're referring is on the opposite side of the pit from the warlord buster.

Either that, or Sizemore spun around. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, it is the same golem. You see, there aren't that many golems.

Panel 7
From right to left:
Crap golem with claws
Metal golem
Crap golem that looks like a blob
Metal golem grappler

Panel 8
From right to left:
Same crap golem that looks like a blob
Metal golem

Panel 9
From right to left:
Crap golem with claws
Metal golem
Crap golem that looks like a blob
Metal golem grappler

teratorn
2009-01-24, 03:09 PM
Panel 7
The golem smashes Duke Nozzel and the other Warlord together.

Panel 8
You can see the same golem that grabbed the warlords on the left. He is fighting something, but we can't see what. His right hand is empty which suggests that one of the warlords got away or has been finished off.

Panel 9
We can still see the golem that grabbed the warlords on the left. He is standing with his arms folded as one shockamancy blast streaks past him. This suggests that the golem has already taken care of one of the warlords and that at least one was still alive for the poop bomb.

Or that he just dropped them inside the hole. There are no corpses there.

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 04:20 PM
Or that he just dropped them inside the hole. There are no corpses there.

While that is possible, it is highly improbable without comic evidence. The warlords, or their bodies, are always just outside of our view. However, dropping them in the hole without showing us would just be poor storytelling.

Trixie
2009-01-24, 04:31 PM
The Wiener-Rams really saved my day. *is still snickering madly* :smallamused:

Um, why? I don't get it :smallsigh:

teratorn
2009-01-24, 04:38 PM
However, dropping them in the hole without showing us would just be poor storytelling.

If you say so. It's incredible the large number of storytelling experts we get in this forum. It's extremely rude to answer to someone's point with something like that.

SteveMB
2009-01-24, 04:46 PM
While that is possible, it is highly improbable without comic evidence. The warlords, or their bodies, are always just outside of our view. However, dropping them in the hole without showing us would just be poor storytelling.

Presumably the outcome will show up in the next page or so. It's one of those things where the pacing stumbles a bit when you read pages a few days apart, but works fine when it's all done and you can read pages a few seconds apart.

And a side thought: Now I'm picturing a spell that might be cast by a gestalt including a Shockamancer and a Foolamancer.... :smalleek:

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-24, 04:50 PM
Of course Ansom could have told them about Sizemore, but he didn't.

Hence Ansom's incompetent. QED.


Also, without the stunning powers of shockmancy Sizemores attack wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

Even if such an attack was deemed ineffective, 1) there's no reason to not give your side the best chance of repelling the attack with minimal casualties, and 2) you can never be 100% certain what forces the enemy can bring to bear -- Ansom himself admitted they lacked good intel.

It does not take strategic genius to protect your leadership just as you would protect your seige, it only takes basic military competence. And the lack of that basic competence undermines the dramatic tension in the story by turning the antagonist into a joke instead of a deadly threat.

Scylfing
2009-01-24, 04:55 PM
Heh, I should've seen this coming, Shockamancy is a form of Naughtymancy afterall and there's nothing more shocking than the horrors Sizemore chants off, plus the crap bomb that is 4chan.

One question though: are we sure that all of that was enough to croak the two warlords?

Poit-Narf
2009-01-24, 05:08 PM
If they're in the same hex as the city (I believe they are, even if they're not in the city per se... looking at the previous comics, I'm a bit confused as to the confines of the city itself now), than it's a legal move; he's just taking advantage of creating two short moments of three-dimensional ground-based warfare in order to actively, and effectively, defend.

At any rate, it might be argued that Parson's taking advantage of yet another mechanic of the universe. Or not.

I assume it's allowed because Ansom is attacking. Parson's plan relied on Ansom attacking this turn. Since Ansom is attacking, Parson is able to counterattack. And what a counterattack it was...

Horatio@Bridge
2009-01-24, 05:25 PM
I don't really think that Ansom's that bad of a warlord. I just think that he doesn't think well on his feet. Consider the Donut of Doom scenario--when he actually had a bit of time to sit down and consider his situation, he came up with a clever, outside-the-box solution to his predicament.

The current situation, however, doesn't give him much time to think out a very good countermeasure. Or rather, he's not giving himself much time to think, since he's convinced he has to act now or Parson's going to clever him to death by the next round. He only saw Sizemore's maneuver once before this, and he immediately charged forward to attack the next position. He didn't really have time to pause and think "hmm, I wonder what the ramifications are of an enemy that has as much freedom of movement on the battlefield as that Dirtamancer just demonstrated?" It's easy for an arm-chair general to come up with the perfect strategy while sitting at home taking hours to ponder every stroke and counter-stroke. It's much more difficult to make solid decisions on the field, much less communicate them and execute them.

It's creating that sense of urgency in his opponent that is Parson's true brilliance in all of this. He's used his forces effectively to push his opponent and keep him off balance, to force Ansom to make decisions without considering their full impact. That gives Parson all sorts of leeway in his maneuvering.

Now, having said all that, sure, there's a gap in Parson's purported genius and his actions (though it's certainly not as large as has been implied by some here). That's an inherent flaw in the medium. Half of Sherlocke's "brilliant deductions" were only brilliant because Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had the control over his world to make them correct. Otherwise, they're just interesting theories, but only one of a million possible explanations. The job of an author is not to be clever, but to make you believe they're clever. The latter can be accomplished with a variety of literary tricks and illusions which do not, in any way, detract from the entertainment value of the story. And certainly, the ability to write well in order to construct those illusions is no less praiseworthy than strategic ability itself!

keeganknorr
2009-01-24, 05:26 PM
I think if you look to the top left of the crossed arm grapplers golem in panel 9 you can see a foot of one of the warlords, also you can see the crap golem ready to take the finger. The weird haze over panel over panel 10 implies that the explosion was part of the spell. Perhaps because it was a crap golem the bonuses stacked. It could have just been a corpse explosion spell

glenstorm74
2009-01-24, 05:38 PM
If you say so. It's incredible the large number of storytelling experts we get in this forum. It's extremely rude to answer to someone's point with something like that.

Haha! I offer evidence and your rebuttal is to call me rude.

Consider Comic 138 panel 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0138.html) Parson's order is, "But at the same time we need to sap the enemy by reducing their multipliers. That's going to be you and the golems, Sizemore. You'll take the Shockamancy spells. Find a leadership stack, burrow up, shock 'em, crap 'em, escape." Thus, Sizemore is given order kill, not capture.

Or consider that we have a constant view of the golem who is grappling the warlords as well as the hole. It would be easy to add a falling warlord in those panels if there indeed was a capture scenario.

Finally, zoom in on panel 9 and you will see the boot of someone being blown back from the grappeling golem. It's hard to say, but it looks like the boot of our unknown, black girl warlord. It would make sense if it was her given that she was the warlord grappled by the golem's left hand.

Captured warlords are unlikely.

teratorn
2009-01-24, 05:41 PM
Haha! I offer evidence and your rebuttal is to call me rude.

You offer absence of evidence, that's ok, I'm not rebutting your evidence, just the need for the "that's bad storytelling." It's condescending and unnecessary.

Ronald_saveloy
2009-01-24, 06:35 PM
I remember, this discussion was brought up much earlier. But the comic has a tendency to set its characters into truely tragic situations:

Take Sizemore. He's a hippie! That was shown in the opening pages. And now, he effectively uses WMDs on the attaking army. I guess, he'll never get happy in his life again.

fendrin
2009-01-24, 06:54 PM
The Wiener-Rams really saved my day. *is still snickering madly* :smallamused:


Um, why? I don't get it :smallsigh:

I liked the 'rammers because if the multi-layering of wordplay.
Weiner-rammer is a play on Weimaraner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimaraner), which is a breed of dog.
It is also a reference to their shape, which is reminiscent of a wiener, aka hot dog, bringing us full circle back to the dog reference.

Something tells me The Old Hack is thinking of something else, though. :smallsigh:

The Minx
2009-01-24, 07:02 PM
While that is possible, it is highly improbable without comic evidence. The warlords, or their bodies, are always just outside of our view. However, dropping them in the hole without showing us would just be poor storytelling.

That would be a premature assessment. We are only seeing one page per update in a comic which would normally be read in quick succession. It's entirely possible that they were captured and the camera simply hasn't cut to them yet.

In fact since, we know the camera hasn't cut to them yet, there is no reason to assume one fate for the warlords rather than another. I guess we'll just have to wait for the next update to tell what happened there.

teratorn
2009-01-24, 07:16 PM
Something tells me The Old Hack is thinking of something else, though. :smallsigh:

Strangely enough it made me think about owlbears. Why cross a perfectly good ram with a wiener dog?

Vreejack
2009-01-24, 07:27 PM
Strangely enough it made me think about owlbears. Why cross a perfectly good ram with a wiener dog?

For the pun of it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimaraner)

Lemarc
2009-01-24, 07:42 PM
I don't really think that Ansom's that bad of a warlord. I just think that he doesn't think well on his feet. Consider the Donut of Doom scenario--when he actually had a bit of time to sit down and consider his situation, he came up with a clever, outside-the-box solution to his predicament.

The current situation, however, doesn't give him much time to think out a very good countermeasure. Or rather, he's not giving himself much time to think, since he's convinced he has to act now or Parson's going to clever him to death by the next round.

It's creating that sense of urgency in his opponent that is Parson's true brilliance in all of this. He's used his forces effectively to push his opponent and keep him off balance, to force Ansom to make decisions without considering their full impact. That gives Parson all sorts of leeway in his maneuvering.
Indeed. Remember that Erf is a world of turn-based warfare. Parson is planning in real-time, something Stanley considered to be inconceivable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html). Ansom can't cope.

Vreejack
2009-01-24, 07:43 PM
I'm still not seeing why this attack by Ansom is a mistake:seems to me that Sizemore could pull his NSFW attacks on his turn at least as effectively.

Lots of fun details, though.

-H

It may be that Parson is hoping to force a retreat before Ansom ends turn, so that he can raise the dead without interference. If Ansom is in the courtyard when Parson starts his turn it might be too cumbersome for Wanda to act. OTOH, any RCC troops in the bailey on Parson's turn will be acting without air support, since apparently attackers cannot fire from the air zone onto the ground, at least they did not fire upon Sizemore when he appeared, nor at Wanda once she hit the ground. This is a bit of a bogus mechanic IMO.

Nargrakhan
2009-01-24, 07:45 PM
Now we're talking Parson: show 'em your Perfect Warlord™ mode. :smallcool:

Letting Charlie have Parson is a bad idea... Ansom has to realize that. If he can wreck this much havoc with losing forces, then it doesn't take any stretch of imagination to guess the power he'd have with superior forces.

If Ansom is smart, he'll kill Parson and claim it was an unavoidable mistake.

Scubasteve0209
2009-01-24, 08:54 PM
Say what you will about Ansom's tactical skills, but at very least he's honest to a fault. I mean what did he say in the last panel of #138?

"Tonight we dine on Lord Stanley's booty!"

prolly not quite what he was expecting though.......

Solarious
2009-01-24, 09:40 PM
4chan, redefining your definitions of Titan Boop every day. :smallwink:

Aside from that, has anyone looked at that last panel, and imagined as the crap golem went off, it made that very same sound effect to the musical tune of Sega gamegear's logo sound? And it'll go like: "FOUR-CHAN" in a pleasant, musical way, but it evokes horror because most people know it means something really bad?

Do I make any sense to anyone?

Yodimus
2009-01-24, 09:49 PM
Haha, oh man, there were like, six panels on this page where I had to stop because I was laughing so much. Brilliant!

Ganurath
2009-01-24, 09:57 PM
I liked the 'rammers because if the multi-layering of wordplay.
Weiner-rammer is a play on Weimaraner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimaraner), which is a breed of dog.
It is also a reference to their shape, which is reminiscent of a wiener, aka hot dog, bringing us full circle back to the dog reference.

Something tells me The Old Hack is thinking of something else, though. :smallsigh:You mean the weiner-rammers breaking Parson's protection/door?

teratorn
2009-01-24, 10:07 PM
Any guesses on what that crap shower will do to the affected units? Will they get sick and in need of healomancy?

Miklus
2009-01-24, 10:09 PM
This page was so good I have to post twice! I like how it goes from the RCC being all lined up and in control in the first panel and to the total horror of the last panel. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

In Ansom'd defence, he should have known that the golems could attack from below, but he could not have forseen the shockamancy or the nuclear-scale crap bomb.

Balance
2009-01-24, 10:16 PM
Aside from that, has anyone looked at that last panel, and imagined as the crap golem went off, it made that very same sound effect to the musical tune of Sega gamegear's logo sound? And it'll go like: "FOUR-CHAN" in a pleasant, musical way, but it evokes horror because most people know it means something really bad?

Actually, the way I heard it in my head upon first reading more resembled the guttural "SNORLAX" sound from Smash Brothers. Only, you know, saying "FOUR-CHAN", which is infinitely more horrific.

I can't quite manage to imagine a thermocrapular bomb making a musical sound.

Limos
2009-01-24, 10:35 PM
Lemonparty, tubgirl, meatspin, goatse!!!

*NSFW!*

*4Chan!*


Oh good lord, I was disgusted by proxy. No more shockamancy, dear god, no more shockamancy. I don't think I could stand any more of it.

Wadoka
2009-01-24, 11:03 PM
Lemonparty, tubgirl, meatspin, goatse!!!

*NSFW!*

*4Chan!*


Oh good lord, I was disgusted by proxy. No more shockamancy, dear god, no more shockamancy. I don't think I could stand any more of it.

I for one do NOT want to view the outcome of a spell which ends with "Goatse" as its last key.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-24, 11:14 PM
I for one do NOT want to view the outcome of a spell which ends with "Goatse" as its last key.

I, for one, do not want to view the outcome of ANYTHING which invokes tubgirl...

dr pepper
2009-01-24, 11:18 PM
I liked the 'rammers because if the multi-layering of wordplay.
Weiner-rammer is a play on Weimaraner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimaraner), which is a breed of dog.
It is also a reference to their shape, which is reminiscent of a wiener, aka hot dog, bringing us full circle back to the dog reference.

Something tells me The Old Hack is thinking of something else, though. :smallsigh:

And of course daschundts are also called "weiner dogs". So daschundt + goat horns = wiener-rammer.

docstrange
2009-01-24, 11:24 PM
I predict Ansom will finally breach the gate... only to be Rickrolled!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-24, 11:30 PM
I predict Ansom will finally breach the gate... only to be Rickrolled!

Actually, that would probably benefit Ansom, considering the Titans are all Elvis Impersonators. Maybe a Rickroll is the ultimate in defense, the opponents forced to watch the Rickroll while the defenders run away clean?

teratorn
2009-01-24, 11:35 PM
I can't quite manage to imagine a thermocrapular bomb making a musical sound.

Now that's a good name for the thing.

Edea
2009-01-24, 11:41 PM
I hope we see Maggie force Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" into the heads of the other Coalition leaders. There is no return from that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-24, 11:55 PM
I hope we see Maggie force Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" into the heads of the other Coalition leaders. There is no return from that.

Dude, that ain't Thinkomancy, that's Shockomancy. I think I'd almost rather be subjected to 4chan...

Thinkomancy tactics will probably be "You can't possibly win, give up now" kind of stuff. Maybe even getting to see something like Dominate, where he makes an action against his own nature.

MReav
2009-01-25, 12:27 AM
I think the freedom of movement that Sizemore demonstrated wasn't considered because Sizemore wouldn't have been able to do as much without the Shockamancy Scroll to disable them (the counter-defending stack would have swarmed him), but IIRC, few casters have any talent outside their chosen element.

DevilDan
2009-01-25, 12:27 AM
Ansom is really, really incompetent. He saw the dirtmancer come out of the ground with his own two eyes when Sizemore rescued Wanda, and yet made no contingencies for dealing with such an attack, or at least protecting his warlords from it? For the Titans' sake, the two warlords were back by themselves with no heavies, or even guards of any kind!

Sizemore's attack on the two warlords is the results of two pieces of thinking that are not the standard for Erf. One is, of course, the fact that no on had previously thought, apparently, of attacking warlords to eliminate their bonuses. The other is that casters are not usually used in the field. No one survived Sizemore's rout of the Jetstone troops. Ansom did face both Wanda and Sizemore, but they were deployed in a relatively safe situation, facing only Ansom while the area was under GK control. Ansom is just not imaginative enough to have anticipated the attacks on his deputies.


Unlikely. Ansom actually states that the capturers spoils willl be forfeit if Hamster is croaked, so we can probably assume that this is a general Effworld mechanic. Though maybe not, since IIRC, Jillian's hat didn't wind up with the capturers.

Though this assumes that the hat doesn't have any special rules, or that it's not some kind of item, seperate from the unit's "special" gear.

Why do we need a mechanism here? Ansom is saying that he will "fine" them their spoils if they fail to follow his orders.

dr pepper
2009-01-25, 12:36 AM
Why do we need a mechanism here? Ansom is saying that he will "fine" them their spoils if they fail to follow his orders.

That's how i read it.

slayerx
2009-01-25, 01:35 AM
Sizemore's attack on the two warlords is the results of two pieces of thinking that are not the standard for Erf. One is, of course, the fact that no on had previously thought, apparently, of attacking warlords to eliminate their bonuses. The other is that casters are not usually used in the field. No one survived Sizemore's rout of the Jetstone troops. Ansom did face both Wanda and Sizemore, but they were deployed in a relatively safe situation, facing only Ansom while the area was under GK control. Ansom is just not imaginative enough to have anticipated the attacks on his deputies.

Another thing to take into account is that Parson is very much still outnumbered... with a whole army ready to burst through the gate one would think that Parson would focus all of his resources to defending against the head on attack... The fact that Parson is using Sizemore and his golems to take pot shots at the enemy serves to mean that he has lowered his defenses and will be more vulnarable to the enemy offensive... the golems + Sizemore make up a considerable amount of force and many would be quick to assume that they would be helping the defense

Glome
2009-01-25, 01:41 AM
Sizemore's attack on the two warlords is the results of two pieces of thinking that are not the standard for Erf. One is, of course, the fact that no on had previously thought, apparently, of attacking warlords to eliminate their bonuses. The other is that casters are not usually used in the field. No one survived Sizemore's rout of the Jetstone troops. Ansom did face both Wanda and Sizemore, but they were deployed in a relatively safe situation, facing only Ansom while the area was under GK control. Ansom is just not imaginative enough to have anticipated the attacks on his deputies.


While I agree about Ansom not having the imagination to see Parson using a dirtamancer in the manner that he did, I disagree with you about commander assassination being a non-standard tactic in Erf World. In particular, we've seen Jillian use this tactic twice so far, and anyone who understand Erf mechanics should have realized the importance of targeting warlords.

With that in mind, it was inexcusable for the two warlords to be unarmed while in a position where there was even the faintest possibility that they could have been attacked.

I was in the army for four years myself, I know first hand that you go nowhere in a combat zone without your rifle within arms reach. They should have been armed purely out of habit as soon as they stepped through the outer walls, even if they were fighting a buffoon. That they knew they were dealing with a dangerous opponent by now makes their casualness even more inexplicable. I'd say the warlords being unarmed has to be the dumbest mistake of this battle so far (although it isn't the mistake with the largest consequences).

Stormthorn
2009-01-25, 02:15 AM
I get it. The shockmancy spell was for internet shock videos.

multilis
2009-01-25, 02:18 AM
... OTOH, any RCC troops in the bailey on Parson's turn will be acting without air support, since apparently attackers cannot fire from the air zone onto the ground, at least they did not fire upon Sizemore when he appeared, nor at Wanda once she hit the ground. This is a bit of a bogus mechanic IMO.
That is only true *this* turn for Charlie, because for the attacker, it requires movement to go between city zones but it isn't Charlie's turn. Ansom has no problem attacking ground from air.

Defender has big edge in that for him the entire city is same hex, no movement so can move freely even though not his turn.

Eraniverse
2009-01-25, 02:26 AM
With that in mind, it was inexcusable for the two warlords to be unarmed while in a position where there was even the faintest possibility that they could have been attacked.

I was in the army for four years myself, I know first hand that you go nowhere in a combat zone without your rifle within arms reach. They should have been armed purely out of habit as soon as they stepped through the outer walls, even if they were fighting a buffoon. That they knew they were dealing with a dangerous opponent by now makes their casualness even more inexplicable. I'd say the warlords being unarmed has to be the dumbest mistake of this battle so far (although it isn't the mistake with the largest consequences).

Indeed. And we're not even sure how much this cost Ansom yet. That was a lot of crap.

But in the warlords' defense, you're looking at things from a modern tactical perspective (as is Parson). Think British army during the Revolutionary War only more formal. It's the coalitions turn. To their thinking they are the ones inflicting strategies on others during this time period. It's nigh inconceivable for the enemy to be pursuing goals beyond a response to RCC attacks until Parson's own turn.

teratorn
2009-01-25, 02:33 AM
With that in mind, it was inexcusable for the two warlords to be unarmed while in a position where there was even the faintest possibility that they could have been attacked.

This is the first time Parson takes the fight to enemy controlled ground during the enemy's turn.

I don't know why, I don't have a good impression about Duke Nozzle (maybe it's the sofa on his side's name). His lady friend looks reasonably competent but I think they may be more leaders than fighters. The redhead seems more of a weapon oriented person. She'd finish a golem or two even if taken by surprise.

Ansom had seen Sizemore coming through the ground, but he probably didn't think much of it, it probably never occurred to him that that guy killed most of his army. I think that only after this he will start to understand how Parson killed his army in the tunnels. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some prejudice against using casters as troop commanders (they're not real warriors, or something like that).

SteveMB
2009-01-25, 02:41 AM
Why do we need a mechanism here? Ansom is saying that he will "fine" them their spoils if they fail to follow his orders.

True; he may be looking at a hefty penalty clause if he fails to deliver Lord Hamster alive and fining a faction their cut may be intended to recoup (and perhaps only in part) that cost.

As somebody already noted, Ansom does come across as high-handed to his allies (for all they know, he's insisting on taking the enemy chief warlord alive, possibly at greater risk to allied units, simply so he can have the pleasure of croaking him personally to avenge that taunting Thinkagram).

SinsI
2009-01-25, 02:46 AM
If Ansom is smart, he'll kill Parson and claim it was an unavoidable mistake.
Charlie's contracts are magically binding - Ansom has to do everything to fulfill his part of agreement.

DevilDan
2009-01-25, 03:01 AM
Charlie's contracts are magically binding - Ansom has to do everything to fulfill his part of agreement.

Plus, Ansom may be the sort who keeps his word anyway. It would be the "honorable" thing to do.

Manoftyr
2009-01-25, 03:06 AM
Wow, so shockamancy=4chan and its floodgate of hellish spawn.

Come to think of it, that's really, really, REALLY appropriate...shockamancy must be some truly fearsome and terribly magic indeed.

I wonder what the boop Wanda was planning to do with it all? :smallconfused:

Turbidus
2009-01-25, 03:07 AM
I'm not sure if the coalition warlords' poor self-defense might not have something to do with Maggie and Thinkamancy - suggesting "let's step away from the bodyguard with the other warlord for a quick private chat" and "normally I'd keep my sword within arm's reach, but it'd be impolite to reach for it when pulled aside by a fellow warlord". Maggie is supposed to target leadership, too.

As for a Dirtamancer used to burrow up: I think Ansom saw this as a defensive measure, a way to save a caster. Sure he failed to realise its full potential, but it's not like he wouldn't have expected it if a similar situation (valuable target in distress) came up again.

Why isn't a "it came from below"-attack a well known and anticipated trick? Just guessing again but perhaps burrowing movement is prohibitively expensive in terms of movement points, thus only really useful in a city defense (free movement). How many Dirtamancers have defended a city in the history of Erfworld? How many of their Overlords and Chief Warlords have defied the conventional wisdom of keeping casters to the rear? I do find it plausible that no one has ever seriously considered the trick. If there are coalition survivors, expect to see a rise in freshly popped Dirtamancers.

I'm starting to sound like a bit of a fanboy, I note. It's a good comic and apparently I want to interpret everything that happens as having a thought-out reason and explanation.

Stormthorn
2009-01-25, 03:11 AM
4Chan Huh? I read on wiki that this is a hacker group? What do they have to do with anything?

Well i suppose in that i is a hangout for the mass off sociopaths and low-end hackers know as Anonymous. They are only really a threat in that there are enough of them to DOS you if you **** with them. Recently they have been too busy attacking the church of scientology and people with epilipsy to bother you perosnaly however. They liek to do things like go into sim-mmos' and make giant swashticas (probably mangled the spelling on that.) and whatnot.



I wonder what the boop Wanda was planning to do with it all?
__________________

Do you...really want to know...?

Kender Wizard
2009-01-25, 03:37 AM
Wow, the last few updates have been excellent. Trying very hard to restrain myself to the current topic of the thread:smallsigh:.

IMHO Parson has set himself up a solid win. First off, he has the squad of golems (metal and rock classed as heavies, strike as hard as a garrison unit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html) (presumably extremely hard-hitters, though we have not seen a garrison unit in combat) when led by Sizemore, can apparently pinpoint and attack select targets without having to engage enemy stacks while in transit, whose golems can be healed by Sizemore, whose crap golems apparently have a self-destruct special attack triggerable by dirtamancer, and so on) attack and eliminate the leadership.

He and Wanda will assault the enemy forces. If memory serves, there are still two uncroaked warlords left.

Parsons stack - himself, 1 uncroaked warlord, Bogroll, at least the top 5 remaining knights (full chief warlord bonus + stack bonus for at least 8 units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html) + uncroaked warlord bonus + high lvl and heavy units in the stack)

Wandas stack - herself, 1 uncroaked warlord, at least 6 weak uncroaked (her massive bonus to uncroaked + uncroaked warlord bonus + stack bonus for at least 8 units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html) + chief warlord partial bonus (see recent Transylvito vs Stanley fight) - weaker unit types)

Keep in mind that more troops can probably be cycled in as needed.

Incidentally, IMO, it is unlikely that the warlords were taken prisoner, simply because Parson did not give that order. Secondly, Sizemore would have to take time out to restrain them at the very least, and Maggie and Wanda (the only two currently in GK shown to be capable of thinkamancy spells) are most likely too busy to deal with prisoners right now. It could have happened, but given Sizemores' current attitude and orders, I wouldn't say its very likely.

And, now for Maggie:
[spoiler]He also has Maggie casting thinkamancy at the leadership. She knows Parson believes (and likely believes herself) that the coalition is close to breaking. You remember thinkamancy? The stuff that can modify loyalty? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html) Assuming Maggie acts at any point in the near future, the lovely redhead might end up loyalty-spell-modded to leave or to attack Ansom (she may be only a few solid nudges away from that now, given her previous sharp, vocal disagreements and the recent scat bomb) [\spoiler]

The only pinch now is Ansom himself. Looking forward to the next update.

Turbidus
2009-01-25, 04:51 AM
He and Wanda will assault the enemy forces.

I agree that Parson and Wanda will be combat leaders soon. But would it really be best to have two separate stacks? As far as I know, only the bonus for stacking units maxes out at 8 units. The bonus for the Chief Warlord being in the same hex and the bonus for being in the Chief Warlord's stack add up according to Vinnie. The "huge" Croakamancer bonus to Uncroaked in the stack could be cumulative with those, and so could the Dirtamancer bonus with the Golems. Parson has his back to the wall. If he cannot be outmaneuvered (the Coalition has only one way to attack him now), why not make one superstack with everything (excluding perhaps Maggie) in it? It could be far superior to having lots of small stacks optimized for stack bonus (the conventional way) but missing out on maximising the other bonuses. Parson should be able to calculate the odds. It would expose the casters to risk, but what is there to save them for if this stand fails?

Now supposing Parson formed a superstack, Ansom might be tempted to do the same. Except that having just experienced a surgical strike from below, he might prefer staying in the air instead of joining the infantry.

Godskook
2009-01-25, 05:15 AM
Stomp-stomp-clap, stomp-stomp-clap...

That one requires Sizemore.

HandofShadows
2009-01-25, 09:03 AM
IIRC Paston said he would be with Wanda. Since she is still injured, I think he would want to be VERY close to make sure nothing happens to her. That puts them both in the same stack. sm

gatitcz
2009-01-25, 10:28 AM
Great page. One thing I'm wondering now: If the Coalition warlords for a side die, what happens to that side in the Coalition? Can Ansom still control them if command hasn't been transferred? Or does it automatically transfer? Or do they just hang around, not attacking allied sides but not moving to attack anyone else who doesn't engage them?


"Croaking him will forfeit your spoils."

...Ansom's deal with Charlies: that he has to capture Parson and turn him over to Charlie in the event that the RCC is successful in its assault against GK.

But I think it also reveals two other things:

1. he issues an order in the context of a threat but doesn't bother to explain why. It's just a matter or do this or face negative consequences.

2. Charlie's contract: ...if Parson is booped, then the price of the contract for Ansom increases.

Both good points. The first is in line with the "fined-if-you-disobey" theory, and it's probably what the RCC warlords are thinking if Ansom hasn't bothered to explain, which may affect morale. But look at it another way. It's probable that whoever croaks a unit gets that unit's equipment. If Charlie can't have Parson, he still wants that bracer. Hence contractual obligation.


Dirtamancers have very utilitarian functions

There's also a very utilitarian function that makes Sizemore very useful :smallyuk:


Actually, the way I heard it in my head upon first reading more resembled the guttural "SNORLAX" sound from Smash Brothers. Only, you know, saying "FOUR-CHAN", which is infinitely more horrific.

I heard it like "Fatality!" myself :smallsmile:


Parsons stack...

Wandas stack...


If Wanda's in Parson's stack, both uncroaked Warlords would get and give bonuses. Bigger multiplier. Plus there may be some item/artifact bonuses from the sword, glasses, and bracer.

Sieggy
2009-01-25, 10:32 AM
I am wondering just how much the RCC is aware of what happened on the top of the wall? Especially, are they fully aware of the deal Ansom made with Charlie? They know there's now an alliance, but Ansom made the deal separate and alone. Not to mention in an extremely tight situation. If he got bent over and rogered roundly, I really doubt he'd admit it . . .

From below, they saw Ansom being attacked, take a fall, then get back up on his carpet with the assistance of the Archons. From their perspective below and outside the wall, it's very unlikely they have any details. If they become aware of whatever it was that made Ansom balk, that may turn out to be a coalition breaker right there.

This may provide a lot of ammo for Maggie, who can use Thinkamancy to sow seeds of suspicion about just what Ansom agreed to up there . . . not that she knows herself, mind you . . .

Awesome page, BTW. The subtlety and savvy of the authors is remarkable.

I definitely think that the fact that we're reading the strip on a somewhat randomly updated basis gives us all time to speculate and kvetch about things that would never spring to mind if we were reading it all in one sitting. Dickens had the same problem with his serialized stories in the 19th century magazines; he was inundated with mail from people doing what we're doing now on-line.

chaoschristian
2009-01-25, 11:16 AM
Charlie's contracts are magically binding - Ansom has to do everything to fulfill his part of agreement.

Charlie's contract with Parson is magically binding. We don't know the full terms, extent or parameters and means of enforcement regarding the new contract between Charlie and Anson (and by extension, presumably, the entire RCC.)

It could be magically binding. Or there could be really, really severe de-motivators included if Ansom fails to fulfill his part of the obligation.

DevilDan
2009-01-25, 12:01 PM
IMHO Parson has set himself up a solid win. First off, he has the squad of golems (metal and rock classed as heavies, strike as hard as a garrison unit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html) (presumably extremely hard-hitters, though we have not seen a garrison unit in combat) when led by Sizemore, can apparently pinpoint and attack select targets without having to engage enemy stacks while in transit,

I think that a "garrison unit" would have some sort of terrain bonus, but the idea was that the scouts would be taken out by an large force of heavies, such as would be kept in reserve and deployed when someone is sniffing around the core of you city, rather than by guards or a scouting party. Casters are commanders, so it's very much confirmed that units in his stack don't attack indiscriminately.

That doesn't mean that this is a slam dunk for Parson; he's outnumbered still and his units are of lower quality. Sizemore can heal his units, and maybe Wanda can heal uncroaked or provide additional buffs, but Ansom has what appears to be a good number of healers on his side. Parson's calculation was that he could "possibly" hold the garrison with Wanda's assistance.

It just occurred to me that one reason to take the warlords alive is that they could be convinced by Ansom (with Maggie's help?) to back out or stay back. He did list conversion and division as the two most important objectives (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html).

Lamech
2009-01-25, 01:04 PM
If those warlords got captured and get turned by maggie... Duke-Nozzel has the authority to pull his units out and I'm assuming blue clad could do the same.

They could "escape" through the tunnels just like Jillian... with spell on them just like Jillian... Duke-Nozzel won't have trouble fabricating reasons... the blue-clad shouldn't either after cracks start to form...

It will be even funnier if Ansom tries to call them out after Jillian didi the same thing.

SteveMB
2009-01-25, 01:14 PM
If those warlords got captured and get turned by maggie... Duke-Nozzel has the authority to pull his units out and I'm assuming blue clad could do the same.

They could "escape" through the tunnels just like Jillian...

That would be a bit difficult to explain with the tunnel entrances sealed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html).

Radar
2009-01-25, 02:08 PM
That would be a bit difficult to explain with the tunnel entrances sealed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html).
Hmm... now, that i read that page, i noticed, that Maggie was part of some plan allready in the previous turn. I wonder, what that was.

fendrin
2009-01-25, 02:33 PM
That would be a bit difficult to explain with the tunnel entrances sealed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0124.html).

It occurs to me that unless Sizemore sealed the tunnel entrance he just made behind him, it could give the RCC a way to get to the garrison without taking the courtyard walls.

stsasser
2009-01-25, 02:46 PM
Parsons stack - himself, 1 uncroaked warlord, Bogroll, at least the top 5 remaining knights (full chief warlord bonus + stack bonus for at least 8 units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html) + uncroaked warlord bonus + high lvl and heavy units in the stack)



Did Ansom also just make Parson all but invincible to RCC troops? Was that part of Charlie's plan?

slayerx
2009-01-25, 02:52 PM
Hmm... now, that i read that page, i noticed, that Maggie was part of some plan allready in the previous turn. I wonder, what that was.

I think phase two was uncroaking the enemy troops... Parson was just refering to maggie because she was the only one there with him and she handles much of the communications


Did Ansom also just make Parson all but invincible to RCC troops? Was that part of Charlie's plan?

It can be guessed that, given Ansom's insistence of capturing Parson, that there is a good chance that the capture of Parson and handing him over to charlie was part of the amended contract... Ansom wouldn't care about giving up the mathamancy artifact and might let allowing Charlie first dibs on spoils slide, but i think Ansom was looking forward to croaking Lord Hamster after what he's done... not to mention that capturing a chief warlord is bound to be very troublesome... hence Ansom's outrage over the amended contract


it actually makes me feel as though Parson may just still loose this battle... i mean, Parson's capture would lead to his survival, and we already know that Parson was planning on sending the casters to the magic kingdom if everything goes to boop... In Theory, if Ansom wins, most of the named characters will still make it out alive... the only questionable one being Bogroll, but it would not surpirse me if he died to save his lord (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0095.html)

Decius
2009-01-25, 03:33 PM
Use Sizemore once or twice more, whack a few warlords, uncroak them for some nice "Fighting in the Backfield" action.

Then have Maggie put a few suggestions... "That warlord and his troops are uncroaked and fighting against you."

Also, if Parson knows about the capture-only order, disguising Bogroll as Parson becomes massively powerful. How cool is "Regeneration" when the enemy refuses to kill you?

Lamech
2009-01-25, 03:37 PM
That would be a bit difficult to explain with the tunnel entrances sealed.
If it wasn't for all these pesky facts my theories would work so much better...
Unless...

It occurs to me that unless Sizemore sealed the tunnel entrance he just made behind him, it could give the RCC a way to get to the garrison without taking the courtyard walls.
Although I'm sure they'll try the tunnels again. 'cause it worked to well last time. And down in the tunnels dirtomancers will be so much easier to protect against. No wait that doesn't make any sense fear will keep them out. Unless they think the dirtomancer died... Memory powder?

Secondly, I'm betting Charlie also asked for Parson's equitment. Ansom is going to be even more ticked off.:smallbiggrin: I wonder if greed could set in and break the coalition even if they take GK.

Tubercular Ox
2009-01-25, 04:06 PM
That doesn't mean that this is a slam dunk for Parson;

I agree. People need to remember Ansom's thick Plot Armor before declaring anything a solid win. It'll lead to a lot less disappointment later on. Something's going to go wrong, plans, contact with enemy, etc. Whether it's game changing remains to be seen.

Sweetie Welf
2009-01-25, 04:38 PM
People need to remember Ansom's thick Plot Armor...

Or his 6.000+ troops including lots of heavies and healers, his own impressive leadership bonus or his powerful ally up in the sky. He obviously can only survive by pure plotpowers. :smallwink:

gatitcz
2009-01-25, 05:17 PM
If those warlords got captured and get turned by maggie... Duke-Nozzel has the authority to pull his units out and I'm assuming blue clad could do the same.

I don't know that a turned unit will retain any command over his former side. Even if it did, units are compelled to obey unless it goes against some higher power, like their Ruler, and betraying sides their Ruler's allied with would probably qualify.

Suicide Junkie
2009-01-25, 05:34 PM
There wouldn't be much betrayal in doing exactly what their leader wanted to do before Ansom made his dash to the wall... cut your losses and retreat.

Once one of them goes, the rest should soon follow, and then it would just be Ansom and the Archons left to deal with.

Sweetie Welf
2009-01-25, 06:22 PM
I doubt that the warlords were captured, yet I hope it. Maybe they can be sold back to their kingdoms for ransom after the war, or even used to make their overlords break the alliance, if they were valuable chief warlords and nobles.

MReav
2009-01-25, 07:12 PM
Or his 6.000+ troops including lots of heavies and healers, his own impressive leadership bonus or his powerful ally up in the sky. He obviously can only survive by pure plotpowers. :smallwink:

And artifact, you can't forget artifact.

Yellowchopstick
2009-01-25, 07:23 PM
So how would capturing Parson work anyway? I would assume the normal way would be to knock out/beat someone within an inch of their lives and then drag them back. But no one can see Parson's hit points right? How would the Coalition forces know how hard to hit him, they'd end up holding themselves back to avoid overkill, since I assume Parson wouldn't go quietly.

hobbes3
2009-01-25, 07:38 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned this picture:

http://studentorganizations.missouristate.edu/TAK/downloads/michelangelo1.jpg

K2
2009-01-25, 07:45 PM
Heh, thats two down. Parson will win this

ShinyBrowncoat
2009-01-25, 08:06 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned this picture:

http://studentorganizations.missouristate.edu/TAK/downloads/michelangelo1.jpg

Only if you ignore the post about 185 posts ago. :smalltongue:

Yellowchopstick
2009-01-25, 08:35 PM
Heh, thats two down. Parson will win this

Well, the question is, two down and how many left? From RCC list, I'm regarding the girl in blue as Unaroyal for counting purposes. I'm not gonna count (for now) Charlescomm cause they're in the air right now, Marbits cause I'm considering them nerfed in the tunnels, Transylvito and Jillian cause they're far away, Luckless and Schlemiel Elves cause they're probably fodder, Lofty and Altruist Elves cause they're healers, and Superflurous Elves cause they have no real purpose. Probably no more minor warlords from Jetstone like Webinar and Dora, otherwise they'd have been sent in the tunnels, and who knows how many minor warlords from the other factions, let's say none out of optimism.

So at best, leadership wise, there's only Ansom, his artifact, Foxmud, Hobbittm, and the 3 remaining elf types: Tarfu, Gothy Elf Chick, and Red Link Elf (that's Woodsy, Shady and Eager :smalltongue:). I think it's still pretty formidable out there.

Lamech
2009-01-25, 10:38 PM
Ahh... the sides that lost there warlords no longer get chief warlord hex-wide bonus. Thats the problem, ALL the units of a side get weakened.

DevilDan
2009-01-26, 01:13 AM
Ahh... the sides that lost there warlords no longer get chief warlord hex-wide bonus. Thats the problem, ALL the units of a side get weakened.

We don't know that any of the other warlords are the chief warlords of their side. I always assumed that Ansom counted as chief warlord for the entire RCC.

Kender Wizard
2009-01-26, 01:28 AM
I agree that Parson and Wanda will be combat leaders soon. But would it really be best to have two separate stacks?

Hmmm. I don't think we have enough evidence to know whether a superstack is possible. I personally don't believe so. Most observations have come from character remarks and the images, so can't be certain.

Main points - We have seen only three situations before now where superstack usage would be mostly beneficial to the side using it (and it was never considered as far as I can tell). The first case would have been Stanley and his dwagons vs. Transylvito. Near as I could tell, Stanleys' screen of 3 knights and dwagons was engaged, leaving him without meatshields vs. Caesar (not counting the foolamancer, as he was incapacitated at the start of the fight). The 30-plus extra dwagon meatshields that would have given him plus the bonuses to those meatshields would have made that a great strategy were it possible (very broken!). This is backed up by Stanley saying he could only take the top 3 knights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0083.html). That may have been a reference to his ability to include that many knights and dwagons in his personal stack. I really can't think of any other reason not to have taken as many valuable units as possible from a city you expect to lose very shortly.

Secondly,
One of Ansoms' possible responses to the donut of doom would have been to use all remaining move to destroy each individual enemy stack in each hex making up the donut of doom and then calling Jillian. This was probably not done for fear of unacceptable losses. Now! In every case (except those where the defending stack has archers), the attacking stacks gets in the first hits. Considering this, if Ansom formed a superstack, every hit would likely result in a kill due to his artifact bonus and chief warlord in-stack direct bonus. The attacks would also be very likely to hit in the first place. So, he stood a very good chance of wiping out the entire donut one hex at a time by using overwhemingly buffed and accurate attacks to acieve victory with few to no losses.

So, a more likely scenario is this... Ansom has several stacks inside his hex. His personal stack has his full chief warlord bonus, perhaps his artifact bonus, and up to 8 man stack bonus. The other stacks in his hex would have only their own leaders bonuses (tarfu, that one elf yelling 'volley, set' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0065.html)), the chief warlord in-hex partial bonus, and the up-to 8 units stack bonus. That might be enough to 1-shot a weaker dwagon type but maybe not enough for an A-dwagon (which the other stacks in the donut of doom seemed to have a lot of). Hence, the dwagon would live to kill some of the attackers, quickly leaving Ansoms' force much reduced, unable to complete their task of removing the donut, and that much more vulnerable to the wounded dwagons when next turn rolls around. Hence, this being a terrible strategy instead of a fight winner.

So, personally, I doubt superstacks are possible. Oh, and DevilDan? I would assume a garrison unit doesn't get a terrain bonus. Given that Bogroll had zero move and that garrison units in general are considered to hit very hard, it is likely that garrison units are just that: heavy or very heavy units restricted to garrison defense with few other special properties (offhand, regen is probably more due to Bogrolls being a twoll than to him being a garrison unit)

G'night everyone.:smallbiggrin:

OnDroid
2009-01-26, 02:03 AM
If this (panel 7 ) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0136.html) is not a super-stack(s) then what is?

And for the Dancefighting style ( as I mentioned on another thread ) ... Has anyone thought of Parson doing the Hamster-dance? :smallwink::smallbiggrin:
I think only uncroaked could join him 'cause other units would lose their sanity in this act of "natural-shockamancy" ( not as potent as spells go though) . :smallcool:

ishnar
2009-01-26, 02:04 AM
For the pun of it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimaraner)

That's the wrong wiener dog (http://www.radford.edu/~dfriedma/wiener%20dog.JPG).

DevilDan
2009-01-26, 02:12 AM
Oh, and DevilDan? I would assume a garrison unit doesn't get a terrain bonus. Given that Bogroll had zero move and that garrison units in general are considered to hit very hard, it is likely that garrison units are just that: heavy or very heavy units restricted to garrison defense with few other special properties (offhand, regen is probably more due to Bogrolls being a twoll than to him being a garrison unit)

Wait, you're positing the existence of a yet-to-be-mentioned and -identified "garrison unit?"

My take on that conversation was this: the preponderance of tough units would naturally be kept in the garrison. this would be the case in general for reasons of caution. And in this case, Ansom and Webinar had to be fooled into thinking that Parson had completely surrendered the tunnels. The scouts were hit with an overkill attack so that the the leaders would think that they had stumbled already onto the main group of troops, which would of course include heavies, that would be defending the dungeon portion of the garrison.

In fantasy fiction and RGPs, trolls often have regeneration.

ishnar
2009-01-26, 02:14 AM
I don't know why, I don't have a good impression about Duke Nozzle (maybe it's the sofa on his side's name). His lady friend looks reasonably competent but I think they may be more leaders than fighters. The redhead seems more of a weapon oriented person. She'd finish a golem or two even if taken by surprise.


You made me remember Rome: Total War. Not all of the Leaders were competent warlords, even if they could lead troops, the administrative types would be shuffled off somewhere else, unless I was forced to use them in combat, I wouldn't.

Gedrean
2009-01-26, 06:46 AM
Go Bogroll. Crap Golems it is.

Nice play to 4ch there.

chaoschristian
2009-01-26, 07:32 AM
Wait, you're positing the existence of a yet-to-be-mentioned and -identified "garrison unit?"

IIRC, Bogroll is identified as a 'garrison' unit the first time Parsons looks at him through his newly aquired 3-D glasses. IIRC.

But what defines a garrison unit has yet to be detailed as of yet.

It could just mean the unit is super cheap (having no move) and intended to stay put in cities to free other more expensive units that have mobility from garrison duty.

shamelessmerc
2009-01-26, 08:07 AM
If this (panel 7 ) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0136.html) is not a super-stack(s) then what is?


Uh... what???

That's just the remaining infantry, and two panels before that Parson states he wants the remaining warlords leading the two(!) stacks.

shamelessmerc
2009-01-26, 08:22 AM
If this (panel 7 ) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0136.html) is not a super-stack(s) then what is?


....Caesar Borgita's "Warlord+Chief Warlord+Personal leadership bonus stack"

I am supposing by "superstack" people mean a single giant stack with every remaining unit in it, getting the benefit of every warlord/caster's bonus?

I have seen nothing to suggest it is impossible, just that there may be reasons why it it would not be the most efficient way of getting the most out of your bonuses.

There is certainly no upper limit that we have seen on the number of units it is possible to have in a stack, just a limit on what is conventional.

Turbidus
2009-01-26, 08:58 AM
Speculation alert!

I don't think we have enough evidence to know whether a superstack is possible.
I agree. But I would like to point out that Parson's Klog described stack bonus as maxing out at eight, not eight being the maximum stack size. If eight was the maximum size, it would to me feel like cheating the reader by not mentioning it at the same time.

If superstacks were possible, they would have to have downsides to explain why they aren't used all the time. In wargames I've played, such downsides to all eggs in one basket tactics include

1) getting flanked or surrounded
2) attacks that target everything in a stack
3) limited number of separate actions (objectives held, terrain scouted)
4) increasing penalties beyond a certain size

On page 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), the extra squad of axemen "breached the right flank". Could this be describing a real gamelike mechanism of Erfworld - a flank attack can expose a Warlord? Such a mechanism would be an incentive not to have fewer stacks than the enemy.

On page 113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0125.html), Stanley's Van de Graaff seems to hit Caesar as well as all his bats (I'm assuming all the bats next to Caesar are his). If Caesar could and would have had more bats, would it only have resulted in even more bats getting fried?

Single bats and other scouts have been used to gain intelligence before committing major forces on several occasions.

I have nothing to offer as a possible example of increasing penalties along with stack size.


This is backed up by Stanley saying he could only take the top 3 knights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0083.html). That may have been a reference to his ability to include that many knights and dwagons in his personal stack. I really can't think of any other reason not to have taken as many valuable units as possible from a city you expect to lose very shortly.
So he'd take what he perceives as best (all the Dwagons) and as many of the second-best units (Knights) as he could? This is a good point and I am afraid that the alternative reasons I can think of are wildly speculative.

Wild speculation #1: If Stanley wants KISS-style dance-fighting bonuses, he needs exactly three other band members/knights, one for each role in KISS the real world band.

Wild speculation #2: If Stanley figures that when Gobwin Knob falls he cannot support more than all the Dwagons and three knights, there might be no point in trying to take more. In some systems, if upkeep is not paid, random units are lost, in some, the most expensive/oldest/newest/whatever-property-Stanley-values are lost first. In such a situation, one would be wise to only take what can be kept and leave the others to make a dear final stand in a good defensive position.

Wild Speculation #3: Dwagons could suffer a movement penalty when ridden. Perhaps only four Dwagons had enough move with the penalty to reach Faq in two turns.


[...] if Ansom formed a superstack, every hit would likely result in a kill due to his artifact bonus and chief warlord in-stack direct bonus. The attacks would also be very likely to hit in the first place. So, he stood a very good chance of wiping out the entire donut one hex at a time by using overwhemingly buffed and accurate attacks to acieve victory with few to no losses.
The forest units barely had enough movement to enter the donut from the rear. Depending on where they started, this may mean they would not have had enough move for wiping out all hexes. Wild speculation based on nothing again, but I know of a game where entering an occupied territory takes up an extra movement point - if that was the case here as well, even less of the donut could be wiped out with the superstack.

HandofShadows
2009-01-26, 09:01 AM
And artifact, you can't forget artifact.

The Arkenpliers arn't really that powerfull in Ansom's hands. They are bascially just a big club that can destroy uncroaked. Now if Wanda got her hands on them I have little doubt that she would rip the RCC a new one (I suspect she would be signicantly more powerfull than Stanley). But I don't think Wanda will get her hands on them yet. Ansom has a lot of faults, but getting anywhere near Wanda is something way to stupid for him to do.

quindraco
2009-01-26, 11:50 AM
I have nothing to offer as a possible example of increasing penalties along with stack size.

There's always the penalties from our world.

First of all, if units cannot occupy the same space as each other, there IS a finite stack limit, which is smaller for bigger units. We've repeatedly seen evidence that Erfworld supports certain basic physical quantities such as volume and collisions.

Another possibility: for melee units especially, past a certain point adding additional units stops adding attacks and only adds durability to your stack, as the new units can no longer physically reach the front line. Imagine simple infantry with swords layered 3 or 4 deep - the guys in the back just don't have swords that long and can't move around the guys in front of them because they'd need to move into another hex to do it.

By the same token, units may get "crowded", just like on our world - you may be able to physically get soldiers to stand in rows touching each other, but it's pretty hard to fight with no room on either side. This would imply that as your soldiers get more and more crowded, each fights worse and worse, until you've got them packed in like sardines and they don't even have room to use their weapons.

Goshen
2009-01-26, 11:56 AM
Assuming a super-stack is possible, there could be some situations where it's a good idea, despite an eight unit limit to the attack bonus. IF (and I say IF) damage to a stack is doled out in number of units killed, a superstack could sustain a lot of normal damage (not area of effect) before dropping below eight units. You would only want to do that if there was some hardpoint you absolutely have to crack. Or more likely, you have some point you absolutely have to defend. Not something to do everyday, but sometimes....

BillyJimBoBob
2009-01-26, 12:38 PM
Brings a new meaning to the phrase "Pull my finger"...

I saw a 4chan and NSFW in special effects... very nice. 4chan's reference I felt was particularly appropriate.Appropriate? For a crap bomb? Hilariously so. :smallbiggrin: In fact "crap bomb" is just about the best description of 4chan as I have ever seen. (except I wanted to use the word beginning with s and ending with t, but apparently crap passes the filters and s**t does not.) Right up there with the two word review of Shark Sandwich.


So, Shockmancy... really is. Truth in advertising WIN!

I was wrong, I thought it was going to be electrical. But at least it is direct damage/explosive, not just psychological surprise, so I was happy with it.Follows the magic chart nicely, doesn't it? After all, it's right next door to Dirtamancy.


NSFW? Not safe for work? What's not safe? The shockamancy?Yes, the shockamancy. Don't look up any of those words while at work. Frankly, don't look them up while not at work either. You'll be very, very sorry.

kunou126
2009-01-26, 02:22 PM
Shockamancy appears to be mostly pshycological. Based on what I saw here, I'd say its filling the heads of its victims with imagery so horrible that it traumatizes or incapacitates them. I'm rather surprised 2 Girls 1 Cup wasn't in the verbal component of that spell. Shockamancy is the Erf axis discipline of Naughtymancy, according to the kogs.

I think this might help understand why Wanda withheld her stash... having something like that in your "private" collection could potentially be embarrassing.

Naughtymancy indeed...

Ganurath
2009-01-26, 02:25 PM
Methinks I see Maggie paying a visit to Redhead Redarmor's Loyalty score in the near future. Ansom's already on thin ice with her, and I doubt she'll be willing to endure the wrath of 4chan.

snafu
2009-01-26, 02:26 PM
Oh dear. I found this too amusing. Perhaps I'm becoming cruel over time.

I remember those shock sites. They used to be... disturbing. Nowadays we're all jaded - nobody bats an eye anymore at goatse or tubgirl, and 4chan is a shadow of its former self, but once upon a time, it's true, we were horrified. Even if now only the worst depravities of the hellish Russian chans can shock us, we have to acknowledge the classics of the genre.

In a world where everything is cute and safe and everything is censored all to boop, someone just let off the 4chan bomb. This is going to be a Lovecraftian nightmare to those poor souls. Parson likes playing the bad guy, but this is going above and beyond.

But there's a deeper horror. What was the original specification of the spell that summoned Parson? That everything seem familiar and safe. Hence a world full of so many fun pop culture references, a world so cute and cuddly. The implication is staggering: Parson is beyond merely jaded. We veterans of the net's horrors nowadays laugh at the classic shock sites. Parson finds them safe. Comforting.

The man's a monster.

SteveMB
2009-01-26, 02:34 PM
But there's a deeper horror. What was the original specification of the spell that summoned Parson? That everything seem familiar and safe. Hence a world full of so many fun pop culture references, a world so cute and cuddly. The implication is staggering: Parson is beyond merely jaded. We veterans of the net's horrors nowadays laugh at the classic shock sites. Parson finds them safe. Comforting.

Well, his bookmarks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0014.html) include the Stile Project and Girls Gone Feral....

Godskook
2009-01-26, 02:56 PM
The Arkenpliers arn't really that powerfull in Ansom's hands. They are bascially just a big club that can destroy uncroaked. Now if Wanda got her hands on them I have little doubt that she would rip the RCC a new one (I suspect she would be signicantly more powerfull than Stanley). But I don't think Wanda will get her hands on them yet. Ansom has a lot of faults, but getting anywhere near Wanda is something way to stupid for him to do.

Don't forget though, Parson explicitly mentions that Ansom gives off an "artifact bonus" back over the lake. That has to count for something.

BRC
2009-01-26, 03:19 PM
Don't forget though, Parson explicitly mentions that Ansom gives off an "artifact bonus" back over the lake. That has to count for something.
The Artifact Bonus may have only applied against the Uncroaked warlords, which were the most important units on GK's side there.

Sweetie Welf
2009-01-26, 03:58 PM
I think the main disadvantage of superstacks are in the lower versatility. A leader has a limited attention and can't react to every developement at every side of the battle. Multiple stacks can react individually. Probably the bonus from intelligent tactics usually outweigh the bonus from having the highest warlord lead all troops.

Another thing is that I don't think having Parson and Wanda in the same stack has any benefit. Only one of them can be the leader of a stack and give his bonus to the troops. The other bonus would be wasted. And it's explicitly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html)that leading the stack is a prerequisite forgiving the bonus.

Godskook
2009-01-26, 05:09 PM
Another thing is that I don't think having Parson and Wanda in the same stack has any benefit. Only one of them can be the leader of a stack and give his bonus to the troops. The other bonus would be wasted. And it's explicitly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html)that leading the stack is a prerequisite forgiving the bonus.

Except that only is said about Wanda's bonus, not warlord bonuses(Personally, I don't buy that a croakamancer needs to be the commander-in-charge to grant the bonus, but surprisingly, that is tangential). We've seen Parson and Webinar both stack multiple warlords in one stack. For instance, assuming Wanda's bonus only applies if she leads, one stack possibility is:

Leader: Wanda
Parson
Archduke Ferdinand
Ensign Toast
+ X uncroaked

The stack gets all 3 warlord bonuses, plus Wanda's. Throw the uncroaked infantry to the front to absorb damage and give it and just add/cycle as needed. Personally, I think this would be the wisest setup for dealing with anything and everything that isn't Ansom.

talkamancer
2009-01-26, 05:39 PM
I had a thought. Rare I know but here goes...

Does anyone believe that a loss of warlord bonus would have any physical effect on the troups suffering that loss ?

Could this effect the loyalty stat ?

BRC
2009-01-26, 05:46 PM
Concerning Superstacking: we've already seen some Superstacks, Transylvito and their bats.

Parson says that "Stacking bonuses cap at eight", I think that means that units get bonuses for being in a stack, one stack of 5 units is better than 5 stacks of 1 each. However, these bonuses stop at 8, so if you want to maximize the amount of bonuses your army gets, you put your soliders in squads of 8. However sometimes it's better to put alot of troops in one stack, as with Transylvito.

Kholdstare
2009-01-26, 06:58 PM
Well this seems like Parson's plan being followed perfectly. By this point it seems almost down to the letter but it being so early in the battle I can't make an reasonable predictions.

However such success in the beginning of the battle might be an obvious prediction of the tide of this battle but I have no idea of what tricks Ansom might have up his sleeve if enemy. He doesn't seem like one to have it but he has been unusually lucky in whatever encounter he is in. No smart planning but just pure luck and strength.

slayerx
2009-01-26, 08:21 PM
Except that only is said about Wanda's bonus, not warlord bonuses(Personally, I don't buy that a croakamancer needs to be the commander-in-charge to grant the bonus, but surprisingly, that is tangential). We've seen Parson and Webinar both stack multiple warlords in one stack. For instance, assuming Wanda's bonus only applies if she leads, one stack possibility is:

Leader: Wanda
Parson
Archduke Ferdinand
Ensign Toast
+ X uncroaked

The stack gets all 3 warlord bonuses, plus Wanda's. Throw the uncroaked infantry to the front to absorb damage and give it and just add/cycle as needed. Personally, I think this would be the wisest setup for dealing with anything and everything that isn't Ansom.

I don't think so... for one thing, just because their was more than one warlord in a stack does not mean it was to take advantage of their bonus... for instance, Dora only has a leadership of 2 but because she is a warlord she is likely more powerful than regular units... Webinar may feel as though he'd rather have her working under him benefiting from his bonus than leading a stack on their own.

And before we saw parson merge two warlords into the same stack, but again this may not have been for the sake of putting their bonus's together but so that they could attack together, so that the weaker warlord can recieve a bonus from the stronger one, and that if one warlord went down the stack will still receive a bonus because of the remaining warlord

Really, considering it's called "leadership" bonus it seems that it's implied that the bonus only counts towards the troops that the commanders lead


if it is the case that a stack only receives leadership bonus's from the leader and not other warlords, then the best formation is for Wanda and the uncroaked warlords to each be in their own stacks...

Wanda will lead the uncroaked, and provide her huge bonus to all of them... in the mean time the uncroaked warlords will lead the non-uncroaked units and provide them with leadership bonus... as for Parson, he has rather low leadership for a chief warlord, possibly lower than the uncroaked warlords even, question is if he can provide that his full bonus without being the leader or not... if he can provide his full bonus to any stack he's inside then he can become part of wanda's stack and stack up their bonus while also providing a partial bonus's for all units within the same hex; which could be the whole capitol

However, their are likely other bonus's that parson plans to take advantage of... He gave off a whole list of them so i doubt he's only thinking of leadership... He may have noticed that his sword provides a bonus or something, he may have found some magic buffs that wanda can employ, and he may be planning on using some dance fighting aswell

Parson plans on making the most out of the force multipliers, so he's gonna go for multiple sources of bonus's

Tubercular Ox
2009-01-27, 03:09 AM
Or his 6.000+ troops including lots of heavies and healers, his own impressive leadership bonus or his powerful ally up in the sky. He obviously can only survive by pure plotpowers. :smallwink:

Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about. We can go in circles, "Ansom has 6000 troops!" "Parson is God in a fat suit!" and never decide anything. Ultimately, the outcome is up to the authors. Ansom could have 6000 archons, and Parson could be naked with a toothpick, and if the Authors so choose, they can reveal that it is in fact the ArkenToothpick with the power to vaporize all Archons within a 3 hex radius.

Since the pattern of the story has been give and take, I wonder at how eagerly everyone's jumping on "This is it! The last one!"

Other thoughts unrelated to the above.

There is in fact a limit on stack sizes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html) Unless, of course, there are max stacks, and then oops, I meant not-so-max stacks. Which, snarkiness aside, I'm not discounting the possibility of. Personally I think max stack size is related to the size of the unit. Bats are small. Gumps, not so much. Maybe I said this somewhere else or only just thought it, but IMO that's just another reason Archons are way too powerful: They're rather small.

The original question is way up there, but I too am very curious what Wanda was hoping to do with those spells after Gobwin Knob was overrun and they were confiscated in the name of Jetstone. Maybe she's hoping she can convince the RCC that it's perfectly safe to leave a huge stockpile of spells in the hands of a former enemy who will certainly overlook her huge grudge against Ansom and whose new Loyalty score after turning is, in fact, perfectly respectable.

ishnar
2009-01-27, 09:51 AM
And references aside, did Sizemore just waste two enemy coalition leaders? "And yet, this still feels like a mistake" indeed.



I'm pretty sure that if getting double-body slammed didn't do it, being dazed at ground zero of that room clearing follow-up did.

fendrin
2009-01-27, 09:53 AM
There is in fact a limit on stack sizes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html) Unless, of course, there are max stacks, and then oops, I meant not-so-max stacks.
Or of course the 'max' refers to something other than number of units in the stack. Like say, stack bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html)?

hajo
2009-01-27, 10:21 AM
Ansom has to realize that. If he can wreck this much havoc with losing forces, then it doesn't take any stretch of imagination to guess the power he'd have with superior forces.
Of course - but doing that, Ansom would have to acknowledge that Parson, a non-royal who has declared royalty obsolete (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0101.html) is a superior warlord / leader / strategist.
That will not come easy :smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2009-01-27, 10:39 AM
The original question is way up there, but I too am very curious what Wanda was hoping to do with those spells after Gobwin Knob was overrun and they were confiscated in the name of Jetstone. Maybe she's hoping she can convince the RCC that it's perfectly safe to leave a huge stockpile of spells in the hands of a former enemy who will certainly overlook her huge grudge against Ansom and whose new Loyalty score after turning is, in fact, perfectly respectable.

When someone is used to hitting nails with hammers, don't get too hard on them when they grab the hammer, even though the crowbar in their room would work better. Wanda's 'hammer' is croakamancy. I'm not surprised she didn't go for her 'crowbars' when trouble brewed. Especially considering that nobody on GK's side has even a small incling of how to fight a war, except Parson.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-01-27, 02:13 PM
Oh dear. I found this too amusing. Perhaps I'm becoming cruel over time.

I remember those shock sites. They used to be... disturbing. Nowadays we're all jaded - nobody bats an eye anymore at goatse or tubgirl, and 4chan is a shadow of its former self, but once upon a time, it's true, we were horrified. Even if now only the worst depravities of the hellish Russian chans can shock us, we have to acknowledge the classics of the genre.
Speak for yourself. I only got a few seconds into viewing 2 girls 1 cup, and now I avoid even curiosity about these things. So far I've managed to avoid seeing most of the things used to cast the shockamancy spell, by looking things up before I go look. The problem with a mental image is that it's far too late to put your eyes out...

gatitcz
2009-01-27, 02:25 PM
Really, considering it's called "leadership" bonus it seems that it's implied that the bonus only counts towards the troops that the commanders lead

If that's the case, it makes the revelation about force multipliers a lot less impressive. It gives a much smaller bonus to each stack, and numbers could very well win out, especially since I doubt Sizemore will eliminate all leadership. Additive can sometimes catch up to multiplicative, even if you need 20 1's to match 4 5's. And the RCC has a substantial numerical advantage.

HandofShadows
2009-01-27, 02:44 PM
And the RCC has a substantial numerical advantage.

But how long will that last? For everyone croaked, it not is only a loss to the RCC, it is also a potential GAIN to GK. So while the RCC looses strength, GK wil gain strength. The question is if GK can reduce the RCC's forces fast enough to keep from being overwhelmed.

SteveMB
2009-01-27, 03:20 PM
But how long will that last? For everyone croaked, it not is only a loss to the RCC, it is also a potential GAIN to GK. So while the RCC looses strength, GK wil gain strength. The question is if GK can reduce the RCC's forces fast enough to keep from being overwhelmed.

There's also the possibility that a few more setbacks on a campaign that was supposed to be a cakewalk will finally convince some of the coalition members that they've Sofa King had it with Ansom's leadership.