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LordZarth
2009-01-30, 10:31 PM
Hi everyone! Some help, a little, quickly, please, you know, my run-on sentence of fail?

Basically, I've seen several references to 'Feature Points' and even downloaded the FP document. Unfortunately, it's not annotated in any way and I don't get it at all. I gather it has something to do with calculating LA. I need to know how. Can someone please explain this all to me? Give a little help?

The problem is I'm not exactly clear on what LA is (although I know, I think) and I don't perfectly get RHD. If you could include a really short description on how those work, that would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
LordZarth

Kroy
2009-01-30, 10:38 PM
LA s pretty much a negative level. For example, a ECL (effective character level) 3 Tiefling fighter has two levels of fighter, and Tiefling abilities. In a group of level 3s, said Tiefling would level up at the same time as everyone else, even though she is a level lower. RHD works the same and stacks with LA.

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 10:43 PM
LA s pretty much a negative level. For example, a ECL (effective character level) 3 Tiefling fighter has two levels of fighter, and Tiefling abilities. In a group of level 3s, said Tiefling would level up at the same time as everyone else, even though she is a level lower. RHD works the same and stacks with LA.

I get it! So I can't trade in any RHD for class HD, right?

Now--anyone know what feature points are?

Flickerdart
2009-01-30, 10:44 PM
RHD is essentially class levels in being a creature. So, say, an Ogre might have a few Racial Hit Dice of being a Monstrous Humanoid, because he's not important enough to have a real class.

All creatures with 1 RHD and no LA have their RHD superseded by a class level if you want to use them as a race.

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 10:47 PM
RHD is essentially class levels in being a creature. So, say, an Ogre might have a few Racial Hit Dice of being a Monstrous Humanoid, because he's not important enough to have a real class.

All creatures with 1 RHD and no LA have their RHD superseded by a class level if you want to use them as a race.

OK. But if they have 2 RHD, none are superseded, and if they have 1 RHD and some LA, the RHD isn't superseded, right?

:smallfrown:Featurepoints?

Flickerdart
2009-01-30, 10:51 PM
OK. But if they have 2 RHD, none are superseded, and if they have 1 RHD and some LA, the RHD isn't superseded, right?

:smallfrown:Featurepoints?
1RHD is overridden no matter how much LA they have. They need the hit die in order to be a monster at all, because with only the LA they'll have no real levels.

And I've never heard of featurepoints.

Do note that LA and RHD is usually poorly balanced. Use LA buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana or look into reduced LA races such as the Lesser Tiefling.

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 10:52 PM
Thanks.

Feature Points were on Gleemax, FYI, all. If that helps.

Hmm.

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 11:19 PM
Well--does anyone know how to calculate LA w/o FP?

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 11:28 PM
Here is the non-annotated file: http://www.sendspace.com/file/bjfl13.

Flickerdart
2009-01-30, 11:32 PM
Well--does anyone know how to calculate LA w/o FP?
There are guidelines in Savage Species but they're poorly balanced. The best way is to honestly just wing it. How do the creature's abilities compare to as many character classes as the LA?

Take, for example, the Vampire. It's a powerful monster, but 8 LA makes it worthless. On the other hand, the Dark template for +1 LA gives Hide in Plain Sight that, while worse than the Shadowdancer ability of the same name, you can get earlier. So it more or less balances out.

Generally, 1-2 LA is fine. When you start piling on the LA and RHD, it falls apart and you should wing it.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-30, 11:36 PM
FP are a custom way of evaluating the power of races. Without them, you generally rely on the listed LA of a race. If it doesn't have one, it's not intended to be played. The chart in http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf that is near the beginning indicates LA from FP. 0 LA is the first row, 1 LA the next, etc. They provide a range for balanced numbers of FP for a given LA. The second table is FP values for various ability score adjustments, starting at -10, to +80.
Next table is the modifiers for AB and BAB. I.e. if race gives a +1 to hit or something. This sort of organization continues. Find every element of the creature you're looking at, and add up the values in FP.

FP is actually designed to calculate ECL, not LA. ECL is LA+Racial Hit Dice.

LordZarth
2009-01-30, 11:38 PM
FP are a custom way of evaluating the power of races. Without them, you generally rely on the listed LA of a race. If it doesn't have one, it's not intended to be played. The chart in http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf that is near the beginning indicates LA from FP. 0 LA is the first row, 1 LA the next, etc. They provide a range for balanced numbers of FP for a given LA. The second table is FP values for various ability score adjustments, starting at -10, to +80.
Next table is the modifiers for AB and BAB. I.e. if race gives a +1 to hit or something. This sort of organization continues. Find every element of the creature you're looking at, and add up the values in FP.

FP is actually designed to calculate ECL, not LA. ECL is LA+Racial Hit Dice.

Thank you so much! So, if a creature comes out at say 40 FP (Balanced Max for +1 LA) and has 2RHD, if I add one class level the ECL is 4? In other words, RHD is peripheral to the FP calculation or what?

Flickerdart
2009-01-30, 11:45 PM
Thank you so much! So, if a creature comes out at say 40 FP (Balanced Max for +1 LA) and has 2RHD, if I add one class level the ECL is 4? In other words, RHD is peripheral to the FP calculation or what?
He said ECL, not LA, so that creature would be ECL3, since RHD is a lot worse than real class levels and would pay in full for the LA as is.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-30, 11:47 PM
Actually, FP is an ECL calculator, unless I'm much mistaken. Specifically, Page 6 of the PDF I linked has point values for RHD, based on their skills, HD size, and saves.

This is actually good, a unified ECL system is much better than an LA+RHD system.

LordZarth
2009-01-31, 12:01 AM
Now that's what confuses me.

Say some race has a total FP without RHD of 10.

Said race has 2 RHD. Say 2 good saves (6 FP) and 4 skill points per HD (4 FP) and a d6 HD (6 FP). Said race now has a total FP of 26,--making it apparently, with one class level, an ECL of 2--even though the HD is 3d?.

I'm probably the one doing something wrong, though.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-31, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I have no problem with that. FP changes the way you look at ECL, since the character's really not worth that ECL. Similarly, a race with 20 undead HD and nothing else isn't worth it.

LordZarth
2009-01-31, 12:12 AM
Yeah, I have no problem with that. FP changes the way you look at ECL, since the character's really not worth that ECL. Similarly, a race with 20 undead HD and nothing else isn't worth it.

I get it. So, with FP you can realize that if races really suck (because of RHD), they can or should have negative LA?

LordZarth
2009-01-31, 12:47 AM
Awakened Bats as Characters


-10 Strength (minimum 1), +4 Dexterity, +4 Wisdom, -4 Charisma (minimum 1).
An awakened bat is a Magical Beast with the Augmented Animal subtype.
Diminutive size. +4 bonus to Armor Class, +4 bonus on attack rolls, +12 bonus on Hide checks, -12 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/4 those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 1 foot/0 feet.
An awakened bats's base land speed is 5 feet. It also has a fly speed of 40 feet with good maneuverability.
Low-light vision, blindsense 20 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An awakened bat begins with two levels of animal, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: An awakened bat's animal levels give it skill points equal to 5 (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. An awakened bat has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks, but only if its blindsense is not negated.
Racial Feats: An awakened bat's animal levels give it one feat.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Druid.


Now--help! First, can you confirm that these stats are good? Secondly and more importantly, using FP or not, what should the LA be? And, if you use FP, is the LA negative? Thanks!

Arbitrarity
2009-02-01, 02:44 AM
Awakened Bats as Characters


-10 Strength (minimum 1) (-7 FP), +4 Dexterity (+9 FP), +4 Wisdom (+9 FP), -4 Charisma (minimum 1) (-5 FP). Net (+6 FP)
An awakened bat is a Magical Beast with the Augmented Animal subtype. (+3 FP)
Diminutive size. +4 bonus to Armor Class (+36), +4 bonus on attack rolls (+36), +12 bonus on Hide checks (+6), -12 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/4 those of Medium characters (-? FP (~6)). (-4'ish average damage, ~-8) (Net 64)
Space/Reach: 1 foot/0 feet. (-5 FP)
An awakened bats's base land speed is 5 feet (? Not much). It also has a fly speed of 40 feet with good maneuverability. (38 FP)
Low-light vision (1 FP), blindsense 20 feet (16 FP)
Racial Hit Dice: An awakened bat begins with two levels of animal, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1 (8 FP), and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +0. (20 FP)
Racial Skills: An awakened bat's animal levels give it skill points equal to 5 (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. An awakened bat has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks (4 FP), but only if its blindsense is not negated.
Racial Feats: An awakened bat's animal levels give it one feat.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Druid.
Total: 152 FP.



Sorry, I had difficulty accessing this page, for reasons unknown. Now. There are the FP values, though I don't know about those values for diminuative size. Apparently LA +3, which seems odd. Lose a few for lack of slots, maybe, but size is a huge difference. Apparently, Tiny size is balanced, so that would make the race a LA+1, ECL+3.

LordZarth
2009-02-01, 12:08 PM
Thank you so much, Arbitrarity! That's really interesting about the size value. I think that I personally would take 1 from the LA if you're diminutive, because even with the cool bonuses you can never carry anything (basically), etc. Thanks for the evaluation!