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Uber_Nerd
2006-09-22, 06:24 PM
I love the soulknife's flavor, but I can't play something that underpowered. Here is my redesign.
BAB: as cleric
Hit Die: d8
Fort: poor
Ref: good
Will: good

Sould Knife Abilities by level.
1st Mind blade, Wild Talent, Mind blade 1d6
2nd
3rd Mind blade 2d6
4th +1 mind blade
5th Free draw, Mind blade 3d6
6th Mind blade enhancement +2
7th Mind blade 4d6
8th +2 mind blade
9th Mind blade 5d6
10th Mind blade enhancement +2
11th Mind blade 6d6
12th mind blade
13th Mind blade 7d6
14th Mind blade enhancement +3
15th Mind blade 8d6
16th+4 mind blade
17th Mind blade 9d6
18th Mind blade enhancement +4
19th Mind blade 10d6
20th +5 mind blade

Mind Blade (Su)
As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade has a range critical of 19-20/×2). The mindblade dlead 1d6 damage at 1st level, and 1d6 more at every other odd level. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The mind blade is treated as a light weapon.

The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade.

A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level).

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect.

Free Draw (Su)
At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however.

Mind Blade Enhancement (Su)
At 6th level, a soulknife gains the ability to enhance his mind blade. He can exchange his mind blade enhancement for any weapon special ability.

The weapon ability or abilities remain the same every time the soulknife materializes his mind blade (unless he decides to reassign its abilities; see below). The ability or abilities apply to any form the mind blade takes, including the use of the shape mind blade or bladewind class abilities.

A soulknife can reassign the ability or abilities he has added to his mind blade. To do so, he must first spend 8 hours in concentration. After that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected by the soulknife.

The_Shaman
2006-09-23, 07:25 PM
Hmm, I'd think a good attack bonus and a few more improvements this class might be better off, but this may be a bit too much. The thing is, a 10d6 + strength damage, doubled on a critical (unlike a sneak attack), and with 3 attacks/round (up to 3 more if you can manifest two of them, +1 or two if you have a speed mindblade) I think it can be a bit too much. Basically, around level 13, every critical-susceptible creature is likely to roll for massive damage upon a critical (average of 21 base damage, +2 to damage from enhancement to attack and damage, a +4 or so from strength bonus, equals 29, doubled 58, more with an elemental damage blade or collision mind blade), and with improved critical, there will probably be a few crits here and there. Well, technically the psychic strike damage could also increase on criticals (since it's not precision damage) and could lead to MDD checks, but that can happen once per round.

Some ideas I would recommend instead:

- full BAB: the class is a combat specialist. Sorry, could you tell me why it should have the same BAB as the chosen one of the goddess of love, rainbows, and furry kittens? A chosen one that, if I may add, can kill people by pointing at them or can stop several thousand tons of lava by saying "Oh, great and mighty Babastanka, any chance for a miracle right about now?" This guy or girl can't do that. He solves problems with a blade, and one that is, literally, part of his body and soul. So he's inherently not better warrior than a flippin' bard? Please.

- more qualities for the psionic blade (if not all). Bane, holy or unholy, ghost touch or speed happen to be very good enhancements, and could very well be added with some prerequisites. If you want to be mean, bump the table to +5 enhancements and allow vorpal or coup de grace. Also, you might want to have some enhancements that are unique to its character: such as ability to dispel psionics (we are talking about a psionic warrior, after all). It might be interesting to have a psicrystal-like intelligent blade, just like the psion has his psycristal.

- develop the shaping mindblade idea further. If I'm that good that I can will a blade to appear out of my hand and wreck adamantine with it or throw it, I could, hmm, extend it? There's a spell that manifests a force lance that can, as a swift action, change its size from 0 to 20 feet. Such and other tricks (manifest a buckler instead of - or with - a second weapon, etc) shouldn't be much harder.

- change bladewind to allow for attacking the same enemy multiple times. I can understand the logic for the whirlwind attack maneuver, but if you shatter the blade in pieces anyway, it could be even simpler attacking one person. Simply have it as an option alongside the standard one; yes, it will do some damage (I'd say half the standard blade damage per shard, 1 shard/level could be ok). As an unrelated note, have you seen Bleach?

With those, I'd think twice before calling the mindblade underpowered. However, the features you propose might be a bit too much.

Uber_Nerd
2006-09-23, 08:36 PM
I may seem like it's overpowered, but think. A cleric can cast hold person, making you useless. At level 20 a wizard can deal 40d6 damage with disintigrate. On a critical, they can deal 80d6. This can only deal 20d6 on a critical. How is this more powerful? At least thats what I think. Also, harm is even cheeser, with 300 damage on a crit.

The way I see it, every non-spellcater needs a serious upgrade.

Mr._Blinky
2006-09-23, 09:45 PM
Well, if you think about it, the huge damage as it's class ability isn't that bad, since the Warlock gets the same amount as a ranged touch attack. But the problem here is that your Soul Knife can wield to and get a crapload of attacks, whereas the Warlock only gets to attack once. Think about changing the damage, and it'll be more balanced.

Caelestion
2006-09-24, 07:31 AM
Not to spoil your fun here, but Heal and Harm don't double their damage on a critical touch. The DC rises by two.

LordOfNarf
2006-09-24, 11:48 AM
Not to spoil your fun here, but Heal and Harm don't double their damage on a critical touch. *The DC rises by two.

So? ever seen the kind of bull a monk/cleric can pull? Harm on every Unarmed sstuning qivering palm strike. most enemies don't get the chance to say ouch.

I always liked the soulknife cncept and figgured it would be balanced as written (in XPS) if yiu add as HD BAB

The Glyphstone
2006-09-24, 12:07 PM
^?

The most liberal interpretation of "Cleric/Monk", a Cleric19/Monk1 who started with 18 Wis and dumped all his ability upgrades into Wis, and has a Periapt of Wis +6, gets 5 6th level spell slots/day plus a domain spell. So, at maximum, 5 Harms, coincidentally matching the 5 Stunning Fist attempts he gets. He can't get Quivering Palm (15 levels of Monk required), so that's out. And since Harm/Heal aren't spells with "Cure" in the name, they can't be converted spontaneously. So that Cleric/"Monk" is using all of his 6th level spell slots to deal 150 damage+a save vs. stun 5/day. If you dump enough cleric levels to monk levels to get Quivering Palm, you'll never cast more than 3rd level cleric spells pre-epic - and Quivering Palm is usable once per week. Not too bad.

NullAshton
2006-09-24, 12:43 PM
10d6+5 damage per attack minimum at level 20... On a full attack, all attacks hitting, which isn't too improbable, that's 30d6+15 damage minimum, for an average of 120 damage... without strength bonuses or AoOs or a flaming frost shocking weapon.

Even with the insane amount of damage this can deal in melee, though, it still sucks, more so than the standard soulknife even I think. Giant with spiked chain and that feat that allows you to stop someone on a successful AoO attack... The soulknife simply cannot get next to the giant, and can they attack? Not really. If they try to toss their blade at them now, it simply disappears. Their lack of proficiencies with bows make them useless without burning money on rapid reload or a bow proficency, and even then they still suck. Ranged weapons are 'usually' not that good at dealing sheer amounts of damage quickly.

The_Shaman
2006-09-24, 04:30 PM
Heh, people, we're going a little off-topic here :D Just one final thing, can harm lead to a MDD (massive damage death) roll?

Anyway, on the soulknife here: It's true that, like the kensai, next to everything about it is a personalized (but free, no xp cost or anything) weapon. However, the other features of the class (speed of thought etc) add in more flavor, making it (for me) as a kind of matrix-style (not to say jedi-style ;D ) combatant. Weird, and not exactly my idea of high fantasy, but what the hell.

I just want to know what would be your opinion if the mindblade enhancement features could be translated into PrCs giving manifester levels; kinda like the warlock's blast and invocations translate into arcane casting PrCs. A soulknife/slayer should get their mindblade improved imo.

@NullAshton: ok, so if a soulknife tries to close in, provoking an attack of opportunity, he can be in trouble. Well, that would be a rather stupid thing to do as a soulknife anyway. When you do full damage with thrown mindblades, can manifest one as free action (basically equaling quick draw, at level 5), and have a range increment of 30 feet a spiked chain is not exactly a good deterrent. Take rapid shot/improved rapid shot, if you could spare the feats, and you get an extra attack, just as powerful as if you had closed in and hacked. Not to mention speed of thought + tumble as a class skill means that whenever the soulknife had to maneuver across the battlefield, he could do it quite well. Basically, my biggest bone with the soulknife is the attack progression. If it was good, the class could be a very versatile fighter, if not a broken one. If you want to break it, now or in this build, just have it charge up a psychic strike as a free action. I dare you :D

Behold_the_Void
2006-09-25, 02:16 AM
Less dice for mindblade damage, more shaping, good BAB, and bonus feats.

NullAshton
2006-09-25, 07:54 AM
Heh, people, we're going a little off-topic here :D Just one final thing, can harm lead to a MDD (massive damage death) roll?

Anyway, on the soulknife here: It's true that, like the kensai, next to everything about it is a personalized (but free, no xp cost or anything) weapon. However, the other features of the class (speed of thought etc) add in more flavor, making it (for me) as a kind of matrix-style (not to say jedi-style ;D ) combatant. Weird, and not exactly my idea of high fantasy, but what the hell.

I just want to know what would be your opinion if the mindblade enhancement features could be translated into PrCs giving manifester levels; kinda like the warlock's blast and invocations translate into arcane casting PrCs. A soulknife/slayer should get their mindblade improved imo.

@NullAshton: ok, so if a soulknife tries to close in, provoking an attack of opportunity, he can be in trouble. Well, that would be a rather stupid thing to do as a soulknife anyway. When you do full damage with thrown mindblades, can manifest one as free action (basically equaling quick draw, at level 5), and have a range increment of 30 feet a spiked chain is not exactly a good deterrent. Take rapid shot/improved rapid shot, if you could spare the feats, and you get an extra attack, just as powerful as if you had closed in and hacked. Not to mention speed of thought + tumble as a class skill means that whenever the soulknife had to maneuver across the battlefield, he could do it quite well. Basically, my biggest bone with the soulknife is the attack progression. If it was good, the class could be a very versatile fighter, if not a broken one. If you want to break it, now or in this build, just have it charge up a psychic strike as a free action. I dare you :D



Except that this proposed 'redux' class HAS NO MINDBLADE THROWING. They neglected that point.

And yeah, psychic strike is nasty. Especially when combined with temporal acceleration. At high levels, 10 damage to a mental ability of your choice as a fullround action, 15 if they provoke an AoO...

Peregrine
2006-09-25, 12:57 PM
Less dice for mindblade damage, more shaping, good BAB, and bonus feats.
Did somebody say bonus feats (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11570153 72)? ;D

...pimping my own thread... I feel so dirty... but honestly, I do have some legitimate motives here. 1) Like several others here, I really like the soulknife flavour but have heard 'it's underpowered' too many times, so I want to string together the various threads with soulknife ideas. 2) What BtV suggested (more shaping/bonus feats) sounds rather like what my thread was actually about.

The_Shaman
2006-09-26, 01:51 PM
Except that this proposed 'redux' class HAS NO MINDBLADE THROWING. They neglected that point.

Oops... sorry. Tumble is still a class skill, though, and DC 15 isn't exactly unbeatable. You could also try jump/leap attack.

Hmm, I wonder if you could make a soulknife/dervish. That might be rather interesting.

NullAshton
2006-09-26, 04:58 PM
Oops... sorry. Tumble is still a class skill, though, and DC 15 isn't exactly unbeatable. You could also try jump/leap attack.

Hmm, I wonder if you could make a soulknife/dervish. That might be rather interesting.


Floating enemies of YOUR DOOM. x.x

Yeah... soulknife/dervish WOULD be interesting... they could have the benefits of increased damage, increased to hit, not to mention being able to get over to the spellcaster and kick butt. Shiney monk alternative.

zad101
2006-09-26, 10:32 PM
:D Just one final thing, can harm lead to a MDD (massive damage death) roll?


no because harm cannot reduce a creature below 1 hitpoint.

The_Shaman
2006-09-27, 07:22 PM
Doesn't matter, it can take 50+ hitpoints for sure. That's how much it takes, by the rules, to make the roll.

zad101
2006-09-27, 09:17 PM
i've never used a MDD roll for harm because i believe that since the spell itself cannot kill you that it shouldnt have a save or die effect. I guess you could do a modified one where that if you fail the save you're at 1 hp and if you pass take damage as normal.

Eighth_Seraph
2006-09-27, 09:34 PM
And thus we have another reason to make the importance of rule 0 all the more evident.

zad101
2006-09-27, 10:04 PM
Ah righto back to the soulknife then. IMHO Uber_Nerd you didn't flesh out the class restructure enough. because when you think of it when done properly and in the right situation any WotC creation can shine the Soulknife really didn't need to change.

Uber_Nerd
2006-09-28, 05:23 PM
Ah righto back to the soulknife then. IMHO Uber_Nerd you didn't flesh out the class restructure enough. because when you think of it when done properly and in the right situation any WotC creation can shine the Soulknife really didn't need to change.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "restructure."

zad101
2006-09-28, 08:26 PM
it means the way you redid the class.