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Occasional Sage
2009-02-07, 05:14 PM
In the first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), the Titans are shown crafting Erfworld*. The ground is mist-shrouded, which I take are art-speak for "things down here aren't done yet, so I can't quite draw them can I?"

Yet at the same time, there's a dwagon flying overhead.

Do dwagons predate the Titans of Ark? Did they come from someplace outside of the Titans' creation for reasons of their own? It's an odd idea that any critters (especially ones that sleep on the ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html)) would be created before the world itself is physically formed. But what does that leave? For the record, my money is on dwagons predating the Titans.


*sidenote: is that volcano going to be Gobwin Knob?

Godskook
2009-02-07, 05:49 PM
In the first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), the Titans are shown crafting Erfworld*. The ground is mist-shrouded, which I take are art-speak for "things down here aren't done yet, so I can't quite draw them can I?"

Yet at the same time, there's a dwagon flying overhead.

"Not quite done here" is not the same thing as "not even started yet". Perhaps the dwagons are one of the first things the titans made? That explains the picture we are given without conceptualizing anything new about dwagons.


Do dwagons predate the Titans of Ark? Did they come from someplace outside of the Titans' creation for reasons of their own? It's an odd idea that any critters (especially ones that sleep on the ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html)) would be created before the world itself is physically formed. But what does that leave?

Actually, we've never seen dwagons sleeping on 'ground' to my knowledge. Your 'ground' example is really treetops. So far, we've seen:

treetops (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html)
mountainside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0110.html)
roosting on the tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0035.html)

Sure, my 'mountainside is 'ground' by some standards, but 'mountainside' is visible in comic 1, and therefore there is no logical disconnect about sleeping space for the dwagons, since the mountainside is right there.

Generally speaking, dwagons seemt to prefer sleeping in the tallest area within their hex

Occasional Sage
2009-02-07, 06:05 PM
"Not quite done here" is not the same thing as "not even started yet". Perhaps the dwagons are one of the first things the titans made? That explains the picture we are given without conceptualizing anything new about dwagons.

Sure, but that's a haphazard approach. Typically you'd make 1) all the terrain, then 2) all the plants, then... or some order of that. Making one critter, then some ground, then some other stuff, then another critter, then... is just nonsensical.



Actually, we've never seen dwagons sleeping on 'ground' to my knowledge. Your 'ground' example is really treetops.

Replace "ground" with "something solid" and I think my point still stands. It's an odd ordering, and one they specifically showed at the very beginning where it might be overlooked until it's applicable to the story again.

Shades of Gray
2009-02-07, 06:14 PM
Sure, but that's a haphazard approach. Typically you'd make 1) all the terrain, then 2) all the plants, then... or some order of that. Making one critter, then some ground, then some other stuff, then another critter, then... is just nonsensical.

You're complaining about nonsensicality in a world where dragons poop on teddy bears accompanied by the musical styling of Michael Jackson.

Kreistor
2009-02-07, 08:31 PM
Sure, but that's a haphazard approach. Typically you'd make 1) all the terrain, then 2) all the plants, then... or some order of that. Making one critter, then some ground, then some other stuff, then another critter, then... is just nonsensical.

Not it isn't. Not if you create things in waves. Ie. You start in one place with ground. Then you create plants, then increase the ground area, then push out the plants and put small animals in the first area, then expand ground, push plants, allow small animals to expand their terrain, then go back and put trees where you started.

In this way, you have waves of growth. But once you get to the big, fast movers like dwagons, they can move beyond their initial teritory into places you haven't completed.

And this is not unlike nature. At the end of the last ice age, northern Ontario (Canada) was scraped down to the bedrock. (And it's tough granite bedrock, too.) There was no soil to grow on. So, it begins with moss. Moss becomes soil over centuries, until it's deep enough for small plants. You get insects and some very small mammals, but not much else. Small plants displace the moss, grows much faster, and creates soil faster. Small plant eaters, like rabbits, move in. Small predators (fox, lynx, weasels) move in. Eventually there's enough soil for bushes, then trees. Larger herbivores now have a place. Meanwhile, to the north where the moss has grown slower due to lower average temperatures, more area has enough soil for plants, and the waves push north.

But note that due to population pressures, animals are going to go beyond the edge of their normal habitat. So even though plants haven't moved to the areas with moss yet, you may see the rare fox that is investigating the edge of its territory, or has been pressured out by stronger fowes and is desperate to find new hunting ground.

In other words, just because you see a dwagon, that doesn't mean they are special.

dr pepper
2009-02-07, 11:50 PM
In the first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0001.html), the Titans are shown crafting Erfworld*. The ground is mist-shrouded, which I take are art-speak for "things down here aren't done yet, so I can't quite draw them can I?"

Yet at the same time, there's a dwagon flying overhead.

Do dwagons predate the Titans of Ark? Did they come from someplace outside of the Titans' creation for reasons of their own? It's an odd idea that any critters (especially ones that sleep on the ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html)) would be created before the world itself is physically formed. But what does that leave? For the record, my money is on dwagons predating the Titans.

I brought this one up months ago.

baka!
2009-02-08, 05:35 AM
Hey, first post here. I have been reading the forum for quite some time, don't really know why I didn't join in earlier..



In the first panel, the Titans are shown crafting Erfworld*. The ground is mist-shrouded, which I take are art-speak for "things down here aren't done yet, so I can't quite draw them can I?"

But "not done yet" doesn't imply "non-existant" here. If we take a look at Panel 2 we see a gem falling into the mist. And since it is still there for the marbits to find it has to land on something. So there has to be some kind of ground under the mist, at least at some places.

I wonder if we could imagine the crafting of erfworld like the creating of a map for a PC-RTS-Game (ie Warcraft 3) in an editor. You start with a plain map of some sort (grass, desert, whatever) and just add mountains, forests, critters, everything you want.
I think that is quite consistant with the general feel of the world.


Sure, but that's a haphazard approach. Typically you'd make 1) all the terrain, then 2) all the plants, then... or some order of that. Making one critter, then some ground, then some other stuff, then another critter, then... is just nonsensical.
Sure, that how it is done in the bible, but it isn't the only approach. Keeping aside evolution/natural progress it is possible that you get a good idea (like a dragon) you might want to do RIGHT NOW and not after creating all that stupid mountains and trees ;)
Again I think that s consistent with the idea of an editor-like crating of the world.

So all in all i don't think that this page implies dragons are really special. It can sleep on the mountain (and perhaps other parts of the landscape of screen) and there are other possible explanations for this...

Aquillion
2009-02-08, 06:24 AM
Many creation stories follow an extended sequence. One creator-god might get jealous of another god's creations and try to match or outdo it, each Titan might have taken turns producing their own favored race, and so on. They might have created the inner "Home of the Titans" area and expanded out from there, slowly populating it. Etc.

hewhosaysfish
2009-02-08, 07:27 AM
If I were a god creating a world then I probably would follow the land-sea-plants-animals progression... but if I were a walking symbol of human authors creating a fantasy setting then you can bet that I would do the cool stuff like dragons, enormous castles and the Forest of Doom (tm) first. Boring bits like empty plains and generic forests would come later.

Cracklord
2009-02-08, 07:36 PM
I'm not all that convinced that the titan's actualy have a plan any more than the erf world inhabitants understand their world beyond basic mechanics. The one shot we got of them didn't impress me of their inteligence or foresight, andthe situation their world is in right now only stregnthens that opinion.
As to the dwagons, I get the feeling it's a warcraft explanation. 'Appointed caretakers and all that.
QED

quindraco
2009-02-09, 12:52 AM
If I were a god creating a world then I probably would follow the land-sea-plants-animals progression... but if I were a walking symbol of human authors creating a fantasy setting then you can bet that I would do the cool stuff like dragons, enormous castles and the Forest of Doom (tm) first. Boring bits like empty plains and generic forests would come later.

What about fossils, petroleum, and other attempts to trick the inhabitants into thinking you don't exist?

Hah hah, the joke would be on them then!

Iain
2009-02-09, 05:52 AM
Um, did you just make a possibly-incorrect assumption, then complain that the consequences of it were nonsensical?

It was misty by my house last night, but there were plenty of places for dwagons to roost, should any happen by...

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 07:22 AM
The Dwagons could have been created by the Titans as assistants in the world-creating process, too. Or maybe the Titans initially created the base elements, and the original Dwagon for each, before shaping them into a proper world. (Which would mean that the base elements of Erfworld are... yeesh.)

Godskook
2009-02-09, 01:50 PM
Sure, but that's a haphazard approach. Typically you'd make 1) all the terrain, then 2) all the plants, then... or some order of that. Making one critter, then some ground, then some other stuff, then another critter, then... is just nonsensical.

Typically? Not every creation story does things by order of complexity. Narnia, if I remember correctly, was created area by area, with each being complete before Aslan moved on. Middle Earth was created by a cadre of demi-gods(err, lets not quibble about their rank, please), some of whom had pet projects that were out of sync with their predetermined creation timeline. Specifically, the dwarves. Caused all kinds of problems since elves were supposed to be the first race. What we have here seems strikingly similar, creation-wise, to what Tolkien did, so why assume that the Titans are going to follow our preconceived notion of what is 'typical'.


Replace "ground" with "something solid" and I think my point still stands. It's an odd ordering, and one they specifically showed at the very beginning where it might be overlooked until it's applicable to the story again.

I was drawing the distinction because "something solid" is visible in the background, making the whole "sleep on the ground" concern unimportant.

SeraphRainy
2009-02-10, 10:15 PM
The "dwagon" in page one that you see looked to me more like some kind of celestial being at first.(Albeit a green one) But now that you mention it it does look like a dragon.

However to me it also appears as though they were raising the mountains out of the land like clay. THe mist looks like actual mountain mist to me like there is land beneath it. THink since everything in erfworld is an off parody of fantasy and stuff(baring the ingenious original ideas that are libraly sprinkled through erf) I think it would be a safe bet to say that minty mountains are like the misty mountains of LOTR. So it could be that their capping off finishing touches on terrain not starting.

Also because a jewel fell off it would make sense for the titans to have been working for a while already if a jewel was rubbed/worn enough to fall off.

Besides dragons have long been considered an old race maybe the titans made the land and it was flat so they put down some water then made creatures but decided later to vary the terrain. Thus mountains and valleys and whatnot?

Besides it just seems like their style
Can I hear an amen.

Haven
2009-02-10, 11:49 PM
Um, did you just make a possibly-incorrect assumption, then complain that the consequences of it were nonsensical?

He did. I believe this is a form of...what's it called..sarcasm. Damn, writing that just got that one "little mermaid" song stuck in my head ><<

Moving on! I assumed the "mist" was clouds, so the mountain that one Elvis titan is working on is so tall it pierces the cloud layer, and the ground is so far down we can't even see it. (Also? It doesn't make a lot of sense for him to be sculpting a mountain without any ground either.)

Iain
2009-02-11, 05:46 AM
It's clear that your understanding of sarcasm is unparalleled. :smallamused:

Moving on! I'm struggling to think of any creation myth or story in which the world was finished before at least some critters were about. Even those popular Abrahamic ones, with their 6-day creation thingy, have big floods and mountains moving and the like.

DevilDan
2009-02-11, 04:02 PM
Any number of Native American creation stories feature the idea that animal exist before the land was finished or even before any land is existence.

Many mythologies have different deities creating different aspects of creation: perhaps one titan created animals and another handled geography, working simultaneously.

I'm happy to let the dwagons be part of the creation of Erf until we see actual proof or until it becomes of importance to discuss it.

Mikalyaran
2009-02-12, 08:31 PM
Mist does not equate to not finished. If the authors had said in the panel that the titans brought the world into being from out of the mists then I could see it. Granted their is a certain elegance to that image but the mists could just as well be the result of high altitude as the presence is mountains suggests. Also the fact that Dwagons are bound to serve whomever is attuned to the Arkenhammer suggests they are a part of the Titans plans. That doesn't make them the Titans creations either though. The Titans seem to be able to pull on all sorts of things from other worlds as suggested by the pop culture references and the ability of erfworlders to craft a spell that can summon things from other places. I'm not sure we really have enough info to make solid assertions about the Dwagons origins. We can certain muse about it though.

shadowdemon_lord
2009-02-14, 09:43 PM
I always just assumed that the Dwagons were one of the first things created. I mean Dragons are practically always an ancient and powerful race, considering we have evidence that Dwagons are exceedingly powerful in Erf, even a match for a high level warlord. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0012.html and we have evidence that they are ancient (as evidenced by the first page), and that they are tied to the will of the titans directly, I think they are the first race as it simply falls in line with the common fantasy mythos.