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Myou
2009-02-08, 06:19 AM
My DM and I are making a new set of rules for epic-level play, as we both want our next campaign to go epic, but don't want to play with the mess that the current rules are.

We're entirely replacing the current epic rules, using a lot of Tequila Sunrise's ideas from his very good epic level handbook, and everything but spellcasting is coming along nicely, but spells are a problem.

We've dropped epic spellcasting as it was, and instead we're going to have premade level 10 and higher spells that are balanced as much as possible, with the option to research new spells just as you research new low level spells. But the trouble is that we have no existing level 10+ spells for comparison and it's going to be hard to come up with the volume of spells needed.

Because of this we're looking for any level 10+ spells that anyone here might have created or might want to create now. We need spells that are appropriate to the level they have, but there's no longer a limit of how high the level can be.

Other details;

Caster progression continues indefinitely rather than stopping at level 17/18 with level 9 spells.
There's no massive damage rule.
We're still not sure exactly how to handle progression for partial casters like bards and rangers. (Suggestions welcome.)


So, if you hae any suitable spells or want to help us out by thinking some up then please post them here! :3
Thanks in advance!

arguskos
2009-02-08, 06:27 AM
Well, at one point, I had spells up to 16th level, though at that point, I had some overly insane stuff, like my patented Unbind the Void Chains spell... which basically took a rather large area (I think something like 100 sq ft/caster level) and undid all the chemical bonds keeping the ATOMS in the matter in that area together. It was.... disastrous, to say the least. Lemme see if I can find/remember some of those old spells (no promises though).

Eldan
2009-02-08, 06:35 AM
Well, at one point, I had spells up to 16th level, though at that point, I had some overly insane stuff, like my patented Unbind the Void Chains spell... which basically took a rather large area (I think something like 100 sq ft/caster level) and undid all the chemical bonds keeping the ATOMS in the matter in that area together. It was.... disastrous, to say the least. Lemme see if I can find/remember some of those old spells (no promises though).

Isn't that just an area disintegrate?

arguskos
2009-02-08, 06:44 AM
Actually, since I worked with a physicist friend of mine, I've been assured that since the spell is not actually destroying matter and just releasing the energy in the atomic bonds, it's more like a super-nuke. Or something. Really, the idea is that little to nothing really survives (if in fact the ground survives, since, assuming as we did, you get a new spell level every 3 levels past 21st (rather than 2, to slow progression a touch), you'd get 16th level spells at level 42, your area is amazingly large).

Besides, I already made Mass Disintegrate. It was level 10.

Back on topic, Myou, I would suggest you start making spells by making Greater versions of favorite spells. That's a good place to begin.

Myou
2009-02-08, 06:55 AM
Actually, since I worked with a physicist friend of mine, I've been assured that since the spell is not actually destroying matter and just releasing the energy in the atomic bonds, it's more like a super-nuke. Or something. Really, the idea is that little to nothing really survives (if in fact the ground survives, since, assuming as we did, you get a new spell level every 3 levels past 21st (rather than 2, to slow progression a touch), you'd get 16th level spells at level 42, your area is amazingly large).

Besides, I already made Mass Disintegrate. It was level 10.

Back on topic, Myou, I would suggest you start making spells by making Greater versions of favorite spells. That's a good place to begin.

Ah, that's a very good idea, thank you, I will do just that. :3

Slowing caster progresion is both interesting and complicated, but I'll think about it. Perhaps half-speed progression? Every 4 levels rather than every 2. Something for me to ponder.

hamishspence
2009-02-08, 07:09 AM
as I recall, 2nd ed Myth Drannor free download from Wizards mentioned 10th+ level spells- maybe that could be a baseline?

GoC
2009-02-08, 07:34 AM
Check my sig.

imp_fireball
2009-02-08, 07:42 AM
Well, a stilled silent empowered maximized quickened magic missile is considered 12th level for one.

A stilled silent empowered maximized quickened meteor swarm is 20th level.

The srd also had a table somewhere for higher spell slots according to your character's int (or other prime casting attribute), which went up to about 70 before it cut off. The highest slot I saw on the table was 25th.

That can be a good place to start. :P

Here's my ideas:

Improved Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 10, Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Works like haste, but without the limitations. It lowers all actions of affected by 1 step, grants two additional actions, and doubles all other affects provided under the haste descriptor. Creatures also have bonuses to overrun, bullrush, may make unarmed attacks without provoking AoO (unless the victim's dex modifier is triple that of the attacker or if the victim is under the effects of improved haste as well), and receive a double modifier to their initial charge bonus.

There is also no limit to movement speed bonus provided by improved haste.

Material Component
A shaving of diseased licorice root.

Epic Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 17, Sor/Wiz 17
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Just like improved haste, however its affects are quadrupled from improved haste. Creatures affected may also move over the surface of water or other such liquid or gas, double their tumble modifiers and attack and move as many times as they like during a round. They may bullrush any material for damage equal to an unarmed strike with their bullrush modifier as the modifier to damage.

Improved haste is the same as haste, but without its limitations. Maximizing epic haste doubles all affects.

Material Component
A shaving licorice root injected with deadly poison and magically infused (at least +3 modifier).

Epic Feats

Blank Spell (Ex)
Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, at least three other metamagic feats

You may cast a spell without its material components. Spells without material components are not affected. A blank spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the actual spell's level.

Shotgun Caster (Ex)
Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, quicken spell and at least three other metamagic feats

You may quicken a spell as many times as you like in one round.

Myou
2009-02-08, 08:28 AM
as I recall, 2nd ed Myth Drannor free download from Wizards mentioned 10th+ level spells- maybe that could be a baseline?

Do you have a link to that?
I've never played 2nd edition, is the spellcasting the same as 3rd?


Check my sig.

Wow, there are a lot of very useful ideas there, it'll take me a while to go through them all, thanks.


Well, a stilled silent empowered maximized quickened magic missile is considered 12th level for one.

A stilled silent empowered maximized quickened meteor swarm is 20th level.

The srd also had a table somewhere for higher spell slots according to your character's int (or other prime casting attribute), which went up to about 70 before it cut off. The highest slot I saw on the table was 25th.

That can be a good place to start. :P

Ah, that's a good way to gauge power, thank you.



Here's my ideas:

Improved Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 10, Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Works like haste, but without the limitations. It lowers all actions of affected by 1 step, grants two additional actions, and doubles all other affects provided under the haste descriptor. Creatures also have bonuses to overrun, bullrush, may make unarmed attacks without provoking AoO, and receive a double modifier to their initial charge bonus.

There is also no limit to movement speed bonus provided by improved haste.

Material Component
A shaving of diseased licorice root.

Epic Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 17, Sor/Wiz 17
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Just like improved haste, however its affects are quadrupled from improved haste. Creatures affected may also move over the surface of water or other such liquid or gas, double their tumble modifiers and attack and move as many times as they like during a round. They may bullrush any material for damage equal to an unarmed strike with their bullrush modifier as the modifier to damage.

Improved haste is the same as haste, but without its limitations. Maximizing epic haste doubles all affects.

Material Component
A shaving licorice root injected with deadly poison and magically infused (at least +3 modifier).

Epic Feats

Blank Spell (Ex)
Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, at least three other metamagic feats

You may cast a spell without its material components. Spells without material components are not affected. A blank spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the actual spell's level.

Shotgun Caster (Ex)
Prerequisites: Caster level 21st, quicken spell and at least three other metamagic feats

You may quicken a spell as many times as you like in one round.

I like your ideas, thank you! :3

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 12:32 AM
How powerful do you want your tenth-level spells to be? Should they be earth-shattering and campaign-changing? Or just Meteor Swarm + more dice, Mass Imprisonment and so on? Magic follows a curve. If you extended the best spells upwards from 9th level, it would get totally absurd.

Mass Imprisonment and Mass Dominance Monster are obvious, of course. If you did it with Chain Spell, they would be 12th level spells, while the leap from Mass 'enhance stat XYZ' is second to sixth (a four-level leap, for a 13th level Mass Imprisonment)... but remember the power-curve issue again.

Mass versions of Freedom and Power Word Kill would be workable, too, although I can't imagine mass Freedom would get much use.

Mass Soul Bind could probably get away with being a 10th level spell due to its limited applicability for most people. Depending on how you want to scale it, it could be powerful enough to bind an entire army or village (but of course they would still have to be already-dead); you'd probably want to extend the time after death you can bind the soul in a bit to make it feasible, too.

For spells at lower levels that would go into level 10+ if scaled using the lower-level examples, Mass Flesh to Stone might be a 10th level spell (although I'm pretty sure lower-level spells that do the same thing have been printed elsewhere...) Mass Insanity or something to that effect is really of limited use except for when you want to be cruel, since Confusion does the same thing at a lower level; but it still fits.

If you want something that actually scales up in power, the Planar Binding line is a logical choice -- you just have to increase the HD it affects. The current measures are the Level 5 lesser version for a 6 HD creature, the level 6 version for a 12 HD creature, and the level 8 version for a 18 HD creature -- note the diminishing returns with the last one, because the HD end up getting you more.

Starscream
2009-02-09, 03:09 AM
like my patented Unbind the Void Chains spell... which basically took a rather large area (I think something like 100 sq ft/caster level) and undid all the chemical bonds keeping the ATOMS in the matter in that area together.

Davros:"Detonate! The! Reality! Bomb!"

I suppose my best guess for level ten spells would be to take some already very powerful spells and remove some of the limitations. Like a Time Stop that does allow you to attack, a Wish with lower experience cost, etc.

You could also simply increase some of the spells that already have multiple versions. It's easy enough to calculate what the appropriate CR for monsters called by a Summon Monster X or Summon Nature's Ally X would be. Maybe a Cleric spell that heals someone to maximum HP. A Create Superior Undead that makes creatures stronger than devourers. A Bigby's Pulverizing Hand. A Mass Dominate Monster.

Not very creative, I know, but the best I can come up with at 3 am.

Myou
2009-02-09, 05:17 AM
How powerful do you want your tenth-level spells to be? Should they be earth-shattering and campaign-changing? Or just Meteor Swarm + more dice, Mass Imprisonment and so on? Magic follows a curve. If you extended the best spells upwards from 9th level, it would get totally absurd.

Mass Imprisonment and Mass Dominance Monster are obvious, of course. If you did it with Chain Spell, they would be 12th level spells, while the leap from Mass 'enhance stat XYZ' is second to sixth (a four-level leap, for a 13th level Mass Imprisonment)... but remember the power-curve issue again.

Mass versions of Freedom and Power Word Kill would be workable, too, although I can't imagine mass Freedom would get much use.

Mass Soul Bind could probably get away with being a 10th level spell due to its limited applicability for most people. Depending on how you want to scale it, it could be powerful enough to bind an entire army or village (but of course they would still have to be already-dead); you'd probably want to extend the time after death you can bind the soul in a bit to make it feasible, too.

For spells at lower levels that would go into level 10+ if scaled using the lower-level examples, Mass Flesh to Stone might be a 10th level spell (although I'm pretty sure lower-level spells that do the same thing have been printed elsewhere...) Mass Insanity or something to that effect is really of limited use except for when you want to be cruel, since Confusion does the same thing at a lower level; but it still fits.

If you want something that actually scales up in power, the Planar Binding line is a logical choice -- you just have to increase the HD it affects. The current measures are the Level 5 lesser version for a 6 HD creature, the level 6 version for a 12 HD creature, and the level 8 version for a 18 HD creature -- note the diminishing returns with the last one, because the HD end up getting you more.

What we want is a power progression that's akin to metamagic enhanced spells. Thanks for the examples, they'll be very helpful.


Davros:"Detonate! The! Reality! Bomb!"

I suppose my best guess for level ten spells would be to take some already very powerful spells and remove some of the limitations. Like a Time Stop that does allow you to attack, a Wish with lower experience cost, etc.

You could also simply increase some of the spells that already have multiple versions. It's easy enough to calculate what the appropriate CR for monsters called by a Summon Monster X or Summon Nature's Ally X would be. Maybe a Cleric spell that heals someone to maximum HP. A Create Superior Undead that makes creatures stronger than devourers. A Bigby's Pulverizing Hand. A Mass Dominate Monster.

Not very creative, I know, but the best I can come up with at 3 am.

Thanks to you too!


I have a lot of spells to make. xD

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 05:48 AM
Oh, some other ideas for high-level spells:

A type of Mass Raise Dead / Mass Resurrection that affects dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people at once (this could have higher-level versions for each.) An epic Cleric could bring an entire army back to life. You would probably want to avoid Mass True Resurrection (because without the need for a body, you could basically summon thousands of dead heroes at once), and would want to keep it to a more limited time dead -- maybe a spell that can bring back a thousand people within a mile's radius of the casting, as long as they're all connected by some common bond named by the caster (e.g. soldiers in a specific army, villagers in a specific village) and died no earlier than one day ago. Obviously, the material components would not be as high per-person as other methods of bringing back the dead.

You could make supreme versions of Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration that can copy 9th level spells (or higher.) The general rule seems to be that such a spell can copy spells up to one level below it.

And, naturally, you could make a Super-Wish or Super-Miracle capable of copying spells more broadly in the same fashion.

Thane of Fife
2009-02-09, 07:17 AM
Do you have a link to that?
I've never played 2nd edition, is the spellcasting the same as 3rd?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Check "The Fall of Myth Drannor".

2nd edition spellcasting is very similar to 3rd's, except that there is no metamagic in 2e, and spells are generally more limited and/or more highly-priced

The 2e High Level Campaigns book had an assortment of 10th level spells, although the only ones I actually remember were Kolin's Undead Legion (raised about 100 HD of undead) and Tenser's Telling Blow (did an absurd amount of damage to a small area). I think that there were also improved Geas and Finger of Death spells.

Aquillion
2009-02-09, 07:33 AM
2nd edition also had a system where the action you took influenced your position in the initiative sequence -- so casting a powerful spell would usually mean you'd react last.

In general, though, 2nd edition spells were more focused on being strange and magical than they were on being useful or balanced. Many spells had really strange limits, drawbacks, or risks (aging the caster or the target was quite common, as with Haste and Wish -- almost any spell that has an XP cost in 3rd edition, and several with expensive material components, instead aged the caster in 2nd edition.)

Many of the most important changes, though, are not directly visible by reading 2nd edition spells. One major issue is that HP in general were far lower in 2nd edition -- but while HP were increased in the transition to 3rd, spell damage was not (because the formula for a fireball was iconic, or something.) In 2nd edition fireball was actually quite powerful, and could easily wipe out or critically wound several opponents in a moderate-challenge encounter in one casting; in 3rd it was much more limited, even though the basic spell itself was unchanged, because of how the world changed around it.

Many more spells were up to DM adjudication, especially at higher levels. For instance, Wish had no list of 'automatically acceptable' effects; Gate did not ensure that the summoned creature obeyed you (and left how they reacted totally up to the DM, though something would always step through willingly.)

There were no cantrips, resulting in a lot of useless 1st level spells or spells with odd applications to keep them useful (as in the way Light could be used to blind an enemy.)

Also, wizards in 2nd edition leveled more slowly than other classes, and as I recall divine magic stopped at 7th level. (Although its 7th level was quite powerful -- the real problem for divine casters was that they couldn't spontaneously convert spells like they can in 3.0, resulting in clerics who had to waste their whole list on healing and were good for little else.)

Thane of Fife
2009-02-09, 07:46 AM
This is all true.


(Although its 7th level was quite powerful -- the real problem for divine casters was that they couldn't spontaneously convert spells like they can in 3.0, resulting in clerics who had to waste their whole list on healing and were good for little else.)

Eh, memorizing enough Cure Light Wounds spells (and Cure Moderate if you were using Spells and Magic) was, in my experience, generally enough healing for the group. They didn't help as much in combat, so having some better healing spells was helpful, but not that many were needed.

Eldan
2009-02-09, 08:38 AM
Check my sig.

That's a damn interesting system there. That actually makes we want to run an epic level game for the first time.

Myou
2009-02-10, 03:46 PM
Thank to everyone who has posted.

We've decided to use some of the feats GoC linked to along with a few of our own so that we don't have to come up with lots of spells :3

We'll still make higher level spells too though.

Stycotl
2009-02-11, 03:45 PM
That's a damn interesting system there. That actually makes we want to run an epic level game for the first time.

give me a holler if you decide to!

i too like GoC's system, if you are looking to replace epic magic. maybe i'm strange though, 'cuz i actually really enjoy the runaway train that is epic magic.

Seven Indigo
2009-02-12, 12:13 PM
I've done way too much work on this subject to not post it:

http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Spells.pdf

It's a pile of homebrew spells made for a campaign where I threw out the normal epic rules in favor of a smoother continuum of power. Many of them are 9th level and lower, but present logical progressions through 10th and higher levels, and most have seen extensive playtesting.

Superior Invisibility and True Seeing aren't mine, obviously, but they're in there for reference.

For that campaign, I created spellcasting progressions adjusted for the elimination of 9th level spells' special status:

http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Artificer_Infusion_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Bardic_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Bonus_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Cleric_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Druid_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Paladin_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Ranger_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Sorcerer_Spell_Progression.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/seven.indigo/Wizard_Spell_Progression.pdf

They should be mostly self-explanatory, save a number of inevitable oddities:

Many classes in this system end up with spell slots higher than their canonical 3.5e maximums would allow, before 21st level. I've found the most balanced way to adjudicate that is to limit characters' spell selection to their 3.5e limits until 21st level, and use those higher slots only for metamagic'd spells until then (i.e., a Wizard of 20th level might have two 10th level slots, but could only fill them with, say, Silent Meteor Swarms until he levels up).

After a certain point, most of the classes have low-level slots noted with something like "9x81." This represents a degree of spontaneous and repeated casting for spells of that level, with the rationale that sufficiently high-level casters should have mastery over their most basic spells beyond that of their lower level counterparts. For example, the 11th level wizard has "5x25" 0th level spells, meaning that he can prepare 5 0th level spells each day, but has a pool of 25 slots with which to cast them, much like a sorcerer. In general, this should have little impact on gameplay (the lowest levels of spells being relatively inconsequential at high level), but allows for flavorful application of magic in a roleplaying context. The benefit of this system (as opposed to simply making low-level spells unlimited after a certain point) is that the DM can quantify exactly what happens if a high level character decides to spend all day shooting ray of frost at something.
[EDIT: Forgot one thing... bonus spells are applied to the first and second number individually. So, suppose your class gets 5x25 first level spells at some level, and have 2 bonus first level spells, you would have 7x29 first level spells, not 7x49.]

Artificers don't get 7th level infusions until 21st level, and thus they should represent a significant jump in power from 6th level infusions.

The spells known lists for classes that have them are included, as I've found that allowing high-level characters to have larger repertoires of low-level spells affects gameplay very little, but does quite a bit to make players happy.

The epic bonus feats of spellcasting classes do need to be adjusted to make up for the automatic gaining of higher level spell slots. So far the best approach in practice has been to simply repattern the acquisition of those feats to match the pace of bonus feats from the nonepic levels.

... I hope all that was useful. ^_^;;