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View Full Version : 4.0 Monster Paragon Path - "I'm a monster, rar!"



arkanis
2009-02-08, 02:29 PM
Monster
“I’m a monster, rar!”
http://chattydm.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/gnomemonster.jpg
Select one non-elite monster from the monster manual of 16th level or lower, an elite monster of 11th level or lower or a solo monster of 6th level or lower. Once selected, you cannot change which monster you gain monster traits from in this path.
Requirements: Same alignment as the selected monster and training in the three skills which the monster has the highest bonuses into or Dragonborn*
You become more monstrous taking on the qualities of a monster which you emulate.
*Dragonborn can only select Dragons or monsters with the reptilian subtype unless they meet the other prerequisite.
Monster Path Features
Monstrous Origin (11th level): You are considered a creature of the same origin as the selected monster’s origin for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Monstrous Visage (11th level): You gain one of the following traits from the monster's entry:
• One special sense (such as low-light vision or blindsense)*
• New clumsy speed type which the monster has equal to your own base speed (you do not gain other beneficial aspects of these speed such as Hover). If the speed does not have a clumsy version you just gain the speed normally. You cannot select a teleportation speed but if your monster has a teleportation speed you instead gain Fey Step as an Eladrin when selecting this.
• Racial resist 5 + 1/2 your level to one type of damage the monster has a resistance or immunity to
• +5 racial bonus to saving throws against one type of effect the monster has a resistance or immunity to
• At-will attack power from the monster’s entry (you gain as an encounter power)
• One miscellaneous racial ability from the monster's entry (only for monsters which are also base races)
When gaining a monstrous visage you can never gain the same thing twice in a row. For example, if you gained an attack power at 11th level you could not gain another attack power until after you'd gained a different monstrous visage ability.
Also, you cannot use implements for monstrous powers unless the selected monster also uses these implements with their attacks. For example, if a Four-armed Bone Monster has an attack called Quadro Bone Strike required the creature to use all four of its bone claws to strike a victim, you would first need to have claws made of bone to do this same maneuver. If the bone claws you wield are weapons, then you'd only be able to perform this maneuver while armed with those specific weapons. If you have only 2 weapons and the Four-armed Bone Monster has 4, your use of this ability would be similarly restricted to the same number of attacks as weapons. Please use some common sense and DM discretion.
Racial bonuses and resistances do not stack with other racial bonuses or resistances.
*You cannot gain Darkvision until you first have Low-light vision. You cannot gain Blindsight until you first have Blindsense.
Monstrous Attack (11th level): You gain one attack power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait if this is not available (see Monstrous Visage). If it has a recharge of 1d6 or it is an at-will power you gain it as an encounter power. If it has a recharge of more than 1d6 or it is an encounter power you gain it as a daily power.
Monstrous Power (12th level): Choose one of the two highest ability scores in your monster’s entry. You gain a +2 to the ability score you selected.
Monstrous Utility (16th level): You gain one utility power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait if this is not available (see Monstrous Visage). A monster's "utility" power is merely any power they have which is not an attack. If it has a recharge of 1d6 or it is an at-will power you gain it as an encounter power. If it has a recharge of more than 1d6 or its an encounter power you gain it as a daily power.
Monstrous Assault (20th level): You gain one attack power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait if this is not available (see Monstrous Visage). If it has a recharge of 1d6 or it is an at-will power you gain it as an encounter power. If it has a recharge of more than 1d6 or it is an encounter power you gain it as a daily power.

I'm somewhat new to 4.0 and just thought I'd throw this idea out there. It's effectively bringing back Dragon Disciples and Vampire Acolytes and similar classes devoted to emulate powerful monsters. It could also be renamed Monster Disciple or Ascendant. Comments?

JackMage666
2009-02-08, 08:57 PM
Monster Path Features
Monstrous Origin (11th level): You are considered a creature of the same origin as the selected monster’s origin for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Monstrous Visage (11th level): You gain one of the following traits from the monster's entry:
• One special sense (such as low-light vision or blindsense)
• New speed type which the monster has equal to your own base speed
• Resist 5 + 1/2 your level to one type of damage the monster has a resistance or immunity to
• Natural armor 5 + 1/2 your level (only for monsters with natural armor of 5 or more)
• +5 bonus to saving throws against one type of effect the monster has a resistance or immunity to
• At-will attack power from the monster’s entry
• One miscellaneous racial ability from the monster's entry (only for monsters which are also base races)
Monstrous Attack (11th level): You gain one encounter attack power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait (see Monstrous Visage).
Monstrous Power (11th level): Choose one of the two highest ability scores in your monster’s entry. You gain a +2 to the ability score you selected.
Monstrous Utility (12th level): You gain one daily utility power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait (see Monstrous Visage).
Monstrous Assault (20th level): You gain one daily attack power of choice from your monster’s entry or an additional monster trait (see Monstrous Visage).

It's horridly overpowered. I'll illustrate by picking a random Devil - Chain Devil Works.

Monster Origin - Fair. This one'll never really be overly powerful.
Monstrous Visage - We'll take Double Attack as an At-Will. 2 basic attacks as a standard action's always nice.
Monstrous Power - +2 Dex or Con. We'll go with Dex.
Monstrous Utility - There isn't a daily utility, so we'll use Monstrous Visage again to gain Hellish Chain (at-will Restrain with a Save Ends)
Monsterous Assault - Again, no daily attack, so we'll take Darkvision, just because.

Well, this wasn't a great example, but it's still rather potents. Let's take something stronger...

Spirit Devourer (Lvl 11 Elite)
Monstrous Origin - It still doesn't make much of a difference
Monstrous Visage - Trap Spirit, FTW. Take a creature of of the fight (save ends)
Monstrous Power - +2 Str of Cha (whichever works more.)
Monstrous Utility - No Dailys. We'll count Devour Spirit as an attack (since it deals damage), and take that to work great with Trap Spirit
Monsterous Assault - No Dailys. We'll finish out the chain with Spirit Rupture.

So, what've we have here? I slightly weaker from of the Spirit Devourer - An at-will that can trap a creature - After a creature is trapped, you have a healing power usable as a minor action at-will (that hurts the trapped creature, or unleashes a relatively powerful attak with a Miss clause as well.)

And that's just a few. I haven't even used this to gain a Fly speed or any form of special movment. Also, look at the Vampire, and tell me that's balanced to give to a player.
Honestly, the best way to handle this is a case-to-case basis - Write the paragon path for each monster.

After all that, I just wanted to say, I do appreciate this idea. It's a great one, but can't be streamlined so easily.

Lappy9000
2009-02-08, 09:12 PM
I find your lack of minions disturbing. Who's my minion? You are! NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!

Had to be said :smallbiggrin:

Meek
2009-02-08, 11:05 PM
I have to agree with Jack. This was worth a shot, but it's horribly broken. The only easy way to do this and make it balanced, is to do one for every iconic monster, kind of like 3.5 did with all its crazy PrCs that turned you into a part-Mind Flayer and a part-Tarrasque and all that dumb stuff. I personally terribly, terribly dislike classes who's entire point is that they tack on random monstrous features, but there's a lot of people who like them. So I think if you found out which monsters are most popular, work on adapting those, you'll get better results than trying a generic catch-all.

RTGoodman
2009-02-08, 11:30 PM
A valiant effort, but I have to agree with everyone else - it's a bit much to try to fit it in as just one Paragon Path.

If you get a chance, take a look at the Dhampyr article in last month's Dragon Magazine, or just wait for PHB2 to come out. Both of them have a new Bloodlines mechanic that seems like it might help streamline this. You COULD, instead of having one PP like you've done, do up a slew of monster-based Bloodline feats (assuming they aren't already included in PHB2), and then make some more specific PPs for creatures with those bloodlines, but that still requires a LOT of work since you'd basically have one for each monster.

AgentPaper
2009-02-09, 04:59 AM
Now that's odd, I can't seem to find the bit that gives you a lair! :smalleek:

Must be something wrong with me. :smallconfused:

Mercenary Pen
2009-02-09, 05:58 AM
Another approach you could use to get more monstrous characters is a fairly simple re-fluffing of the Spellscarred class out of the FRPG, because once you've nixed spellscars, it could easily be modified to give a more monstrous feel to any and all PCs.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-09, 12:53 PM
It's horridly overpowered. I'll illustrate by picking a random Devil ...

You even skipped Monstrous attack when doing your examples, so it would be even more powerful.

Another thing, do monsters even have daily and/or utility powers? I didn't think that was a thing for monsters. I thought it was just Basic Melee, Basic Ranged, At Will, Encounter and Recharging for their action types. And what, pray tell, is "natural armor"?

Siegel
2009-02-09, 02:55 PM
What can i do to turn into part Tarrasque ? (someone mentioned it)

arkanis
2009-02-13, 08:05 AM
Well I was hoping to limit the OPness by putting limitations via the monster's eliteness, soloness, and level.

I could just say you gain a daily power of the monster as an encounter power.

That would prevent the devourer from becoming a problem.

I could also state that it does not function for template monsters.

I see what you're saying, it would be safer to individualize a class like this, but the point was to be universal so people could just "pick a monster" and have fun with it.

I actually designed it for a friend of mine who wanted to become a death knight.

Rigon
2009-02-13, 08:36 AM
Well the daily to encounter power copy method wouldn't work because i think monsters with daily powers are rare (i scouted through the monster manual and found none but paper search was never one of my strong points).

How about we do it the blue mage way? I know final fantasy isn't dungeons and dragons but still.
So let me describe it.
lvl11 Feat: Whenever you are hit by a "racial attack power" (meaning that the power has no power source keyword like martial, arcane or divine) and you survive the hit then you can add the power which hit you to your known monster powers' list as a free action.

lvl11 Feat: Whenever you hit a monster with an attack power after he "interrupted" with an "immediate interrupt or free action" power you can add that power to your known monster powers' list as a free action.

lvl11 Encounter Power
use one of your known "monster encounter attack powers".

lvl12 Encounter Power
use one of your known "monster encounter utility powers".

lvl20 Daily Power
use one of your known "monster daily attack powers".

what about this? i know it needs a lot of correction but this would work out a fun way and wouldn't overpower the character because he/she would still use his/her own Attack values (so if the monsters attack is a charisma one then you must use your charisma attack for it) and usually monster powers can't rely on neither weapon nor implement.

while this is pretty much the same as the original post i would allow a greater variety of monster powers and and less to no monster attributes.

EDIT: but you would have to translate each power you learn. that is a long road to go. especially if you want to collect a lot.

Mercenary Pen
2009-02-13, 10:22 AM
*snip*

This seems like it would- above all else- slow down any game it was used in, not only requiring the recalculation of all these abilities as they were learned, but also overloading the user with options at the table. An integral part of the 4e system is the replacement of lower level options with higher level ones, so that no player is so thoroughly overloaded that they can't choose between options in a reasonable time frame.

Using this, a group will require extra time per encounter for each player using this system to choose between options beyond the number they should reasonably be expected to have and additional extra time every time a new ability they can grab is inserted into any encounter.

Moreover, should the DM homebrew any monsters and abilities, he/she more or less has to design every monster with this in mind, either inserting keywords to prevent abilities coming back to haunt him/her, or trying to work out exactly how unbalanced his Horrible Rending Fangs will be for a PC once they've combined it with a racial feat, a class feature, a magic item property or any combination of the above.

I hate to say it, but this isn't just about extra time at the table, the wrong learned ability given to an enthusiastic optimizer could potentially be broken to horrifying extremes, simply because players get tricks that monsters don't, and monsters get some tricks that players don't. Providing a means of combining these wholesale with no checks and balances is potentially very dangerous.

arkanis
2009-02-13, 01:36 PM
I don't see why you wouldn't trade up powers as normal.

Just label "brute" monster powers as "fighter" and "skirmisher" monster powers as "ranger" etc.

If someone homebrews a monster with OP powers then DUR it's going to be OP in the hands of the players. I'd expect a DM who is homebrewing to be intelligent enough to set limitations on their own creations, especially if they're combining it with other people's homebrewing like this. It's kinda a poor assessment of game balance to state, "Yeah, that's cool but what is someone homebrewed something to make it unbalance?"

I'm just looking to see if this is okay in the game NORMALLY.

I've edited the class a bit so that the first post example no longer flies as OP because now monster at-wills become player encounters and monster recharges become player dailys.

Mercenary Pen
2009-02-13, 02:52 PM
I don't see why you wouldn't trade up powers as normal.

Just label "brute" monster powers as "fighter" and "skirmisher" monster powers as "ranger" etc.

If someone homebrews a monster with OP powers then DUR it's going to be OP in the hands of the players. I'd expect a DM who is homebrewing to be intelligent enough to set limitations on their own creations, especially if they're combining it with other people's homebrewing like this. It's kinda a poor assessment of game balance to state, "Yeah, that's cool but what is someone homebrewed something to make it unbalance?"

I'm just looking to see if this is okay in the game NORMALLY.

I've edited the class a bit so that the first post example no longer flies as OP because now monster at-wills become player encounters and monster recharges become player dailys.

I was specifically replying- in my last post- to Rigon's 'learn it all as a Blue Mage' suggestion, but my comment about the addition of new and unexpected synergies by combining monster abilities with magic items, racial feats, etc. still stands. Luckily due to monster level restrictions, people won't be borrowing powers from epic monsters like the Blackfire Dracolich (for the auto-hit Blackfire and a Close Blast 9 Necrotic Breath Weapon...)

However, if you assume a Dragonborn Rogue taking this path, wielding a +3 Dread Weapon Dagger, and taking the Young Green Dragon's Double Attack.

After the first hit against a given monster with Double Attack, the hypothetical Rogue then activates the Daily power on his Dread-weapon Dagger, imposing a -3 penalty on all the monsters defenses and checks until the end of said Rogue's next turn.

Then, he follows up with the second hit of his appropriated Double Attack- which the monster has to defend against despite a -3 penalty to its defenses.

Being a Dragonborn, our Rogue then uses his Dragon Breath encounter power to add on even more damage.

Combine that with anything the Rogue's companions might do, and whatever our Rogue does on his next turn (probably including another Double Attack), and our monster, whatever he may be, has probably taken a lot of damage out of one simple interaction between a common monster attack and a player-only magic item.

Rigon
2009-02-13, 07:26 PM
Mercenary Pen: i think i see the problem. i wasn't specific enough. let me try again.

1. you can only learn "encounter attack", "daily attack" and "immediate interrupt" powers which have affected you (maybe we can extend this to "recharge attacks as encounter attacks").
2. you must have the proper body features to learn the power (no tail means no tail slap).
3. you must translate the power's attack and damage to match your own body (if you have no large claws and the strength of a dragon then your "claw attack" will most likely be a mere unarmed punch 1D4+strmod or 2D4+strmod at epic levels).
4. you cannot use weapons/implements during the execution of your monster powers and monster powers can't be affected by any weapon/implement property/power (i haven't seen any real monster power with weapon or implement keyword anyway so how would you?).
5. choosing powers: at the beginning of a short rest you can decide to prepare a monster encounter attack power you know which will be prepared to use after the short rest. same goes for daily powers and extended rests respectively. if you want to exchange an immediate interrupt monster power then you need a short rest for it to take effect (or an extended rest if the interrupt power is also a daily).

copying a green dragons double attack would be quite nonsense in this matter.
first it is at-will meaning you can't really learn it (according to my original post you could learn it but never use it)
it says 2 basic claw attacks. translated it becomes 2 basic unarmed melee attacks (and you don't even get the "reach 2" because that comes from the dragon's size and not from the attack). and you get no damage or attack bonuses from your enhanced "spiked gloves" because this power has no weapon keyword. All you have is 2 strength attacks versus AC doing 1D4 + strength modifier damage each. And in my humble opinion that doesn't sound overpowering at all.

it was all my fault though as i did not describe how much a power would lose from its power just by being converted to a humanoid PC character.
the "blue mage" version as i called it would be weaker than any other paragon path but it would give access to possibilities which are normally unavailable to most of the classes.

let us have a look at the adult green dragons bite attack. normally it wouldn't be allowed as a learned power because it is an at-will power but if ignore that it is a poison attack which (in case of being performed by a humanoid) has a very low attack (a bite attack is worse than an unarmed one... just imagine a halfling trying to bite an orc... with a strength attack without proficiency bonus) but in case of a hit it would do ongoing 5 poison damage (and maybe ongoing 10 poison damage on higher levels). so this would be quite interesting.

now let us look at the adult green dragons flyby attack. this wouldn't even work at all. it relies on an implicit requirement that you have a fly speed. no fly speed no flyby attack.

i'm sorry if my post became way too long to read. i just wanted to explain myself and be as clear as possible. knowing how bad my english is... so sorry again.

arkanis: returning to your original post...
monstrous origin, visage and power grant monster properties which are imho overpowering.
monstrous origin: some monster attack powers affect large areas with the restriction that the power does not affect the monster (and monsters of the same race). origin kills the "biological tactical advantage" of the monsters.
monstrous visage: any of those permanent passive bonus properties is overpowering.
monstrous power: getting the racial ability bonuses of another race without losing one's own is overpowering because the signed sum of racial ability modifiers is usually positive.

AgentPaper
2009-02-13, 07:35 PM
I was specifically replying- in my last post- to Rigon's 'learn it all as a Blue Mage' suggestion, but my comment about the addition of new and unexpected synergies by combining monster abilities with magic items, racial feats, etc. still stands. Luckily due to monster level restrictions, people won't be borrowing powers from epic monsters like the Blackfire Dracolich (for the auto-hit Blackfire and a Close Blast 9 Necrotic Breath Weapon...)

However, if you assume a Dragonborn Rogue taking this path, wielding a +3 Dread Weapon Dagger, and taking the Young Green Dragon's Double Attack.

After the first hit against a given monster with Double Attack, the hypothetical Rogue then activates the Daily power on his Dread-weapon Dagger, imposing a -3 penalty on all the monsters defenses and checks until the end of said Rogue's next turn.

Then, he follows up with the second hit of his appropriated Double Attack- which the monster has to defend against despite a -3 penalty to its defenses.

Being a Dragonborn, our Rogue then uses his Dragon Breath encounter power to add on even more damage.

Combine that with anything the Rogue's companions might do, and whatever our Rogue does on his next turn (probably including another Double Attack), and our monster, whatever he may be, has probably taken a lot of damage out of one simple interaction between a common monster attack and a player-only magic item.

That sounds like a good use of the class, not it being overpowered. You've just used 2 encounter powers and an item power to do a lot of damage. How is that bad? Remember that, since Double Attack is an at-will, it's an encounter power, so it can't be used more than once in a fight. Seems in line with other encounter powers around that level.

Seems like a nice idea, and I would probably allow this in my games. Exactly what level of monsters should be allowed should probably be looked at, though, to see what we can allow without bringing in ridiculous attacks.

Edit: Green Dragon paragon path:

Monstrous Origin 11: You are considered a Magical Beast (dragon).

Monstrous Visage 11: Fly at your base speed (clumsy).

Monstrous Attack 11: Breath Weapon as a daily power.

Monstrous Power 11: +2 to dex, con, or cha.

Monstrous Utility 12: Bloodied Breath as a daily power.

Monstrous Assault 20: Frightful Presence as a daily power.


It looks good, but why are we getting 3/4ths of our stuff at level 11? The class is just dead levels from 13-19. At the least, bump Monstrous Power up to 12 and Monstrous Utility to 16. Then it fits more with the rest of the paragon paths, and is probably at least a bit more balanced.

arkanis
2009-02-15, 05:08 PM
AgentPaper, that makes sense yes. That's a good suggestion.

Rigon, that may be some good restrictions if a DM uses custom monsters which break the normal monster manual boundaries. I would say you can only use implements which the chosen monster also uses though. Thanks for the suggest.

Mercenary Pen, that's just a good use of the class. No different than any other paragon class being put to good use. You still haven't broken anything even with such a specific example.

Monster class updated.

As far as the innate stuff being overpowered I have to disagree as it is. Unless you can possibly find a combination that makes it OP. The only thing I could think of is if a Dwarf took this class and selected +5 saves vs. poison giving them a total of +10 to saves vs. poison (autopass), but that doesn't strike me as terribly OP since it's only the save and they still suffer the initial effects. Thoughts? Maybe I should say these things don't stack with your standard racial bonuses?

Rigon
2009-02-16, 09:17 AM
well if you add that each bonus granted from visage counts as racial bonus then the base rule saying that "bonuses from the same source don't stack" makes it simple.

Here are a lot of questions about visage:

resist 5+half level is completely okay (sorry this was my bad... actually there is no problem with this. i just keep forgetting that there is no such thing as "resist stacking"). okay this one is actually not a question.

permanent aura as minor action encounter power perhaps?

vision: how about creating a requirement tree like the feats for armor (normal vision > low-light vision > darkvision > blindvision/tremorvision > truevision... or something the like)?

clumsy movement type... well this leaves me kinda in the nebula (what movement is there beside flying that can be clumsy?). waterwalk, swampwalk, icewalk... what else could a PC add here? teleportation (maybe half move distance)? base speed increment maybe? burrow? swim?

could a player add features like breathing under water/-earth or in "void"?

could players increase size category or the number of limbs? could they grow body parts which are distinct features of the chosen monster (tail or extra eyes maybe)?

could a player get immunity against certain effect types (like immunity to poison effects, meaning ongoing damage and penalties keyworded with poison)

could players gain regeneration? (troll path warrior anyone? by the way beside regeneration and troll healing what else could a player get from that race? large weapons?)

could you please make an exact and complete list about what kind of powers and properties a player could obtain through this paragon path (explicitly stating go or no go)?

Mercenary Pen
2009-02-16, 11:31 AM
Thanks for clearing some of that up...


Mercenary Pen, that's just a good use of the class. No different than any other paragon class being put to good use. You still haven't broken anything even with such a specific example.

Monster class updated.

As far as the innate stuff being overpowered I have to disagree as it is. Unless you can possibly find a combination that makes it OP. The only thing I could think of is if a Dwarf took this class and selected +5 saves vs. poison giving them a total of +10 to saves vs. poison (autopass), but that doesn't strike me as terribly OP since it's only the save and they still suffer the initial effects. Thoughts? Maybe I should say these things don't stack with your standard racial bonuses?

Okay, I'll take your point about that being the sort of thing a PC should be doing- As it is, that wasn't the best choice out there for sheer damage- You could instead take Dragon's Fury from the White Dragon, providing for an extra Bite (read Unarmed Strike) attack if you hit with both...

Top of the table, however, goes to the Dagger Dance recharge power of the Foulspawn Mangler, which allows for four 'Bone Dagger' attacks and a shift of 1 square afterwards. If a DM doesn't object to the Rogue's daggers being made of bone, that'll be four or more hits against your target using my previous example...


However, I'll admit that both Arkanis and Rigon have their proposals protected against the most basic abuses by now. Perhaps it's now time they were properly tested to destruction, so that the limits can be found away from gaming tables.

Rigon
2009-02-17, 10:21 AM
Mercenary Pen:
well try to add requirements. a normal humanoid has no bite attack so without learning a sort of bite attack first you couldn't learn dragon's fury properly.

I'm also implementing the dagger dance in a different way. That creature has 4 arms and is wielding 4 bone daggers (and has another 4 as reserve for ranged attacks). so i think that power let's you do a basic melee weapon attack which each of your arms (normally PCs have only 2 arms so 2 attacks it is) and shift 1 square after each attack. to me that looks like some sort of ranger power.

thanks for the praise :) and be sure to try to break the rules because i rather see some rules being corrected than seeing the same rules being abused.

arkanis
2009-02-19, 06:36 PM
Okay, I'll take your point about that being the sort of thing a PC should be doing- As it is, that wasn't the best choice out there for sheer damage- You could instead take Dragon's Fury from the White Dragon, providing for an extra Bite (read Unarmed Strike) attack if you hit with both...
Top of the table, however, goes to the Dagger Dance recharge power of the Foulspawn Mangler, which allows for four 'Bone Dagger' attacks and a shift of 1 square afterwards. If a DM doesn't object to the Rogue's daggers being made of bone, that'll be four or more hits against your target using my previous example...
However, I'll admit that both Arkanis and Rigon have their proposals protected against the most basic abuses by now. Perhaps it's now time they were properly tested to destruction, so that the limits can be found away from gaming tables.
Not that overpowered. Remember, what's an at-will or 1d6 recharge for them is an encounter for you. What's a 2d6+ recharge or encounter for them is a daily for you. One 4 attacks + shift 1/day at 11th level doesn't strike me as OP. Rangers get a double-strike AT-WILL at 1st level.

You're right. The best way to test the specifics of this class are to put it into game use. It's here for critiques in the homebrew to eliminate as many "predictable" abuses as possible. There are of course many things which have not yet been foreseen in further detail which I will definitely need to improve on.



well if you add that each bonus granted from visage counts as racial bonus then the base rule saying that "bonuses from the same source don't stack" makes it simple.
Yes



permanent aura as minor action encounter power perhaps?

vision: how about creating a requirement tree like the feats for armor (normal vision > low-light vision > darkvision > blindvision/tremorvision > truevision... or something the like)?

clumsy movement type... well this leaves me kinda in the nebula (what movement is there beside flying that can be clumsy?). waterwalk, swampwalk, icewalk... what else could a PC add here? teleportation (maybe half move distance)? base speed increment maybe? burrow? swim?

could a player add features like breathing under water/-earth or in "void"?

could players increase size category or the number of limbs? could they grow body parts which are distinct features of the chosen monster (tail or extra eyes maybe)?

could a player get immunity against certain effect types (like immunity to poison effects, meaning ongoing damage and penalties keyworded with poison)

could players gain regeneration? (troll path warrior anyone? by the way beside regeneration and troll healing what else could a player get from that race? large weapons?)

could you please make an exact and complete list about what kind of powers and properties a player could obtain through this paragon path (explicitly stating go or no go)?
If it has no clumsy variety then it has no clumsy variety and you get it as is. Those without the clumsy option aren't as powerful as those with anyway. Climb and swim vs. fly. I don't think I know of any creature which has a teleportation SPEED, I know they have teleportation POWERS but not SPEEDs. If there is one please let me know, that would be a big deal in this case, but otherwise not so much.

I'd say low-light -> darkvision yes except that I'd have to create a tree for all that eliminating the POINT in having a generic monster class where you transform into a specific monster, not gradually gain feats which emulate a specific ability. That would be better suited for a FEAT-based game, which is actually a good idea, but I'm not looking to change or even tweak the system. Just add a new paragon path.

As the class is now, no. You cannot add limbs, regeneration or other permanent features. If you have a suggestion for how to implement this possibility fairly, I'm all ears.

You cannot gain immunity. Read Visage more carefully, I already explained that one.

Hell no, that would defeat the whole purpose in creating this class as a generic paragon path. What you could do instead is make a Paragon class for each TYPE of monster such as Brute, Skirmisher, Controller, Leader, etc. and compare it to the party roles of base classes, but that would take a little extra work for very little benefit. If you have some ideas to do that please go for it, I'd like to see what you have.


Mercenary Pen:
well try to add requirements. a normal humanoid has no bite attack so without learning a sort of bite attack first you couldn't learn dragon's fury properly.

I'm also implementing the dagger dance in a different way. That creature has 4 arms and is wielding 4 bone daggers (and has another 4 as reserve for ranged attacks). so i think that power let's you do a basic melee weapon attack which each of your arms (normally PCs have only 2 arms so 2 attacks it is) and shift 1 square after each attack. to me that looks like some sort of ranger power.

thanks for the praise :) and be sure to try to break the rules because i rather see some rules being corrected than seeing the same rules being abused.
Good point. A DM would definitely need to pay attention to a monster's features (such as 4 arms) to see if the power makes sense for utility. I'm going to assume that any DM using a homebrew paragon path like this isn't stupid and will be experienced enough to notice things like this and if a 1/encounter or day (how often does the creature get that abiliy?) 4 attack and shift is too overpowered for a 11-20th level character then they would disable this. I'd say as a daily power it is not OP but as an encounter I'd make that same ruling.

Thanks for the critiques and comments, I appreciate them. Please keep them coming.

Class updated a little more.

Rigon
2009-02-20, 04:34 AM
how about making monstrous origin to be a part of monstrous visage (as a possible choice)?

1d6 recharge? you mean like once-per-turn? i don't remember reading about any power like that except for class features (warlock's curse, etc.).
what about recharge powers which recharge with a special trigger (i think daily but it isn't explicitly stated).

as for teleportation: using powers to teleport sounds good. for visage feats i meant enhancement to the teleport power. like you no longer need line of sight and with the second feat you no longer need line of effect.

arkanis
2009-02-22, 04:04 PM
Erhm, no. The point in this class is that the character is ascending into monster-hood and abandoning their old race to become one with the new one. If a player doesn't want to be treated like a monster, they shouldn't be taking this class.

The recharges are listed in the monster stat blocks. Did you never notice the little d6s that are in the monster power descriptions? Those are how long it takes for the monster to recharge those powers. Most monsters have recharge time instead of just "encounter" or "daily" powers like players do.

No, you seem to be thinking you can choose random features. This is not the point at all. If you read this paragon path (actually read not just skim) you'll notice you don't get an option for select any feature you feel like. There are specifications. You have to choose either a movement speed, a power, etc. It's all right there.