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View Full Version : [CUTE] Evaluation Process: The Dreamer [Class]



Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 12:49 PM
As outlined in the Evaluation Methodology (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11572407 10;start=0) thread, this thread is for discussing, editing and evaluation the Dreamer base class for Project C.U.T.E. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11543005 05).

Note: This class is considered a "core" C.U.T.E. class. Therefore, voting for inclusion is not needed; only review and editing.

The Dreamer is meant to be a defensive caster as well as a healer, as well as a summoner. She uses her reality-altering powers and summoned critters to defend her friends, and her Happy Thoughts to heal them if they get injured.

Remember kids: Do not compare the Dreamer to any core D20 class, as kids won't be using them until they grow up, and by then they'll have lost their CUTE powers. The point of this thread is to set a benchmark to compare all other CUTE classes to; not to balance it against existing D20 material.

The Dreamer
All healthy kids know the value of a healthy imagination. Imagining the world as it should be is what kids do best. However, some kids can't seem to work out the difference between the real world and their imaginings. These children go through life in a sort of daze, being quite pleasant to those stuck in the 'real world' but always seeming just a little off.
Adventures: Dreamers go on adventures entirely because that's what they imagine they should do. The reasons in their imaginations might vary, but all dreamer adventurers are simply along for the ride because they think they're meant to be.
Characteristics: Dreamers are so good at imagining things that they can sometimes bring these unrealities into being, if only for a short while. Dreamers can use these powers to aid their comrades in rather odd ways.
Alignment: A dreamer can be of any alignment, although seldom are evil, per se. They may act as if they were evil, but most dreamers like this are actually neutral, simply playing along.
Religion: Dreamers are mostly too caught up in their imaginations to revere any specific deity.
Background: Dreamers, sadly, often have very troubled lives. Many dream in order to escape the reality of their life. Many, however, simply dream because they can, to the frustration of parents and teachers who try to get them to live in the real world every now and then.
Races: All children dream. Dreamers are more likely to spring up in the cultured races than the savage ones, as savages who daydream all the time often get themselves killed early on.
Other classes: Dreamers get along with anyone, up to and including the villain of the story. Many classes see dreamers as useful for their ability to warp reality, although quite often they get annoyed by their inability to come down to earth for any prolonged period of time.
Role: Dreamers can take the role of healer, spellcaster, warrior, rogue, whatever takes their fancy at any particular time.

Game Rule Information
Abilities: A dreamer's most useful ability is her Wisdom score, as it modifies her Imagine checks. Dreamers can also benefit from a high Charisma score, especially when trying to convince others that what they imagine is actually real.
Alignment: Any
Hit die: d6

Class skills
The dreamer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Imagine (Wis), Play (Cha), Perform (Cha) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills points at first level: [4 + Int modifier] * 4
Skill points at every other level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Dreamers are proficient with the pencil, the ruler, the book and the skipping rope. Dreamers are not proficient with any type or armour or shields.
Out Of It: Dreamers are in an almost constant daydreaming daze. While they can see the real world well enough, they take a -2 penalty of Search, Spot and Listen checks, but in return recieve a +2 bonus on Will saves and Imagine checks.
Happy Thoughts: Good vibes can be a very potent thing when they come from a dreamer. Once per day per rank of Imagine a dreamer possesses, she may heal her allies of their wounds. Both the dreamer and her target must hold hands and take a full-round action concentrating on all things good and fun and fluffy. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity, although if either are attacked the dreamer must make a Concentration check as if casting a first level spell. At the end of the round, the dreamer makes an Imagine check against a DC of 10, healing her target of 1d6 points of damage if she succeeds. If she beats the DC by five or more, she heals another 1d6 points of damage for every five she beats the DC by.
Alternatively, the dreamer may take a full-round action on her own to instead heal all allies within 30 ft. of 1 damage per dice of damage she would normally heal.
At tenth level, the dreamer's healing dice increase to d8, and the damage she heals using the secondary use of this ability increases to 2 per dice she would normally heal.
A Dreamer may not have more uses of Happy Thoughts per day than three more than her Dreamer level (4 uses maximum at level one, five at level two, and so on).
No, No, That Went Wrong!: At second level, a dreamer may reattempt any saving throw, skill check, attack roll or damage roll once per day. She must declare that she is using this ability before the results of the action are announced, and must take this new roll, even if it's worse than the first one.
At sixth level, and every fourth level thereafter (10th, 14th and 18th) the dreamer may use this ability an additional time per day.
Imaginary Friend: At fourth level, a dreamer's imaginary friend becomes a little more real, although still invisible to everyone but the dreamer. This is similar to the Unseen Servant spell, with the dreamer's class level as the caster level. Unlike an ordinary Unseen Servant, however, the dreamer's imaginary friend is intelligent (Mental scores all equal to the dreamer's Charisma score -2) and can converse with the dreamer or any of her imagined constructs (see below). The dreamer can also see her imaginary friend perfectly, which often takes on a humanoid form. Unlike a regular Unseen Servant, an imaginary friend can move up to 30 ft. in a round.
If an imaginary friend ceases to exist for any reason, a dreamer can call it back into being as a move-equivalent action. The imaginary friend "appears" adjacent to the dreamer when this happens.
Imagination Made Flesh: At seventh level a dreamer can emulate a Summon Monster III or Summon Nature's Ally III spell, with a caster level equal to her class level, up to three times per day. The creatures summoned by this ability are only about 50% real. If a monster rolls a Will save to disbelieve (DC 13 + dreamer's Charisma modifier), they only take 50% damage from the summoned creatures. In addition, they are of the Construct type, not their original creature type. The dreamer's imaginary friend may order the creatures around just as the dreamer can.
This ability gain one extra use per day at levels 10, 13, 16 and 19.
At fourteenth level, the dreamer may instead choose to emulate the IV versions of the spells. In addition, the save DC increases by 1.
It's Not Meant To Go That Way!: At twelfth level, a dreamer can choose to disbelieve a course of events once per day. If she makes a DC 25 Imagine check, she can reverse all the effects that transpired since her last turn. All spells and abilities are still used, but their effects are nullified. This ability can even return a dead ally back to life, providing they died after her last turn.
At twentieth level, a dreamer can use this ability twice per day.
Dream Avatar: At seventeenth level, a dreamer gains the ability to transform into a being of awesome power as a full-round action. This can be a superhero, an angel, or even a rather large stuffed toy. She becomes Large, gains a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, and gains either a +20 bonus on her base land speed or a fly speed of 30 with good maneuverability. The dreamer also gains a +4 competence bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks.
While manifest as her Dream Avatar, a dreamer can choose to emulate Summon Monster V or Summon Nature's Ally V when using her Imagination Made Flesh ability. The DC to disbelieve increases by 1 again, and the summoned creatures become 70% real instead of 50%.
This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to half her ranks in the Imagine skill. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier - 1 (minimum once per day).

Saves: Good Will, bad Reflex and Fortitude
BaB: 3/4 HD, as Cleric.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 01:02 PM
Okay, first order of business: I don't think allowing the Dreamer to gain new uses of Happy Thoughts by multiclassing and just taking ranks in Imagine is a good idea.

Currently, a Dreamer 1/Storybook Hero 19 would have 24 uses of Happy Thoughts per day, if she maxed out her ranks in Imagine. This was a problem that plagued the bard in 3.0...

Fax Celestis
2006-09-18, 01:06 PM
Happy Thoughts is usable far too often. The Dreamer, as it stands, makes a better healer than the cleric at low levels.

Try making it usable equal to one-half ranks in Imagine per day, instead of at the 1:1 ratio it currently stands at.

Oh, and put in a proviso stating "Uses not to exceed levels in Dreamer +1".

It's Not Meant To Go That Way! is gamebreakingly powerful, especially at 12th level. Perhaps kicking it up to sixteen would be a better choice, or shortening the duration of negation. Perhaps even simply "resetting" things as they were before the ability at 12th, changing that to keeping expended at 16th, and then granting an extra use at 20th.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 01:09 PM
I forgot to put what the Dreamer is actually for... I'll put that into the first post.

The Dreamer is meant to be the main healer. As there will be absolutely no clerics, I don't see why it's a problem that they're more powerful.

Sorry about not making the purpose clear... it's better now, I hope.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-18, 01:20 PM
Alright, then it's perfectly fine since you have no other real source of healing.

I'm still concerned with the It's Not Meant To Go That Way! though.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 01:22 PM
I suppose just resetting things at twelfth level, wasting spell slots at sixteenth level and getting an extra use at twentieth wouldn't be too bad.

But we should get more opinions before I go and edit things, naturally.

I am, however, putting a rule in Happy Thoughts which states that the Dreamer cannot have more uses of Happy Thoughts per day than her Dreamer level + 3.

A note: There is another class that can heal. But, considering he gains spells as a bard, if he chooses to heal he can't do that much else.

This is assuming the Mama's Boy makes it into the Core CUTE, naturally.

belboz
2006-09-18, 02:28 PM
Question: Is there a really strong reason, power or flavor-wise, to *ever* let "It's not Meant to Go that Way" keep abilities/slots expended? The fluff of the description sounds like it should just *undo* the previous round. That might significantly lower balance concerns, and to me it makes more fluff sense. And it's still a *really* useful ability; even if the dragon gets its breath weapon back, it has to roll for damage again, everyone gets to reattempt their saves, and the party can try totally separate tactics if the old ones failed.

Another possibility, to keep the healing while still making a Mama's Boy/Girl (assuming we have it)'s healing powers useful: You only *state* that the healing is a full-round action for the dreamer. But the description kind of implies that *both* characters need to take a full-round action (holding hands) to make the ability work. If that were made explicit, the dreamer would be a potent healer while characters *recuperate* from battle (or saving seriously wounded, out-of-the-fight characters during battle), but would still give spell-based healing its place, in that it can be used while the recipient fights on.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 02:36 PM
Well, I wanted that ability to make sure the round just didn't happen that way all over again and waste the use of the ability.

But since all the other characters would know what just happened, they be able to change it anyway. Yeah, we can take away the expending spell slots and other stuff idea...

And it was supposed to mean both the Dreamer and the person being healed had to take a full-round action, holding hands, for it to work. I will make that more explicit next time I go on an editing spree.

belboz
2006-09-18, 02:42 PM
Oops...er...you actually do already state it explicitly. Don't know how I missed that; sorry.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 02:44 PM
...I did? Oh, so did.

We may have to work out what happens if the Dreamer tries to heal someone who's already acted during that round, though.

belboz
2006-09-18, 03:30 PM
I'd be inclined to just disallow it. Communicating is a free action, so with a bit of foresight, an injured character can declare they're going to cooperate with the dreamer to get healed *on their action*. If they or the dreamer have already had their turn when they realize they need healing, it has to wait for the next round.

So: A dreamer's healing abilities would be powerful, and *usable* in combat, but only superior to a MB/MG's *between* combats. For serious heat-of-battle healing, you want divine/parental power.

[edit:...and given that, I agree that DL+3 is better than DL+1 for max number of uses. The nice thing about DL+3, which is what I imagine you were thinking anyway, is that it still gives a single-classed dreamer incentive to max out Imagine.]

belboz
2006-09-18, 04:11 PM
BTW, here's a level-by-level table (SRD-style) of the Dreamer's abilities. I, at least, will find it useful to see how the dreamer grows by level, and it will probably be *very* useful later, when we balance other classes against the dreamer level-by-level.

{table]

*Level
*BaB
*Fort Save
*Ref Save
*Will Save
*Special


*1st
*+0
*+0
*+0
*+2
*Out of it, Happy thoughts


*2nd
*+1
*+0
*+0
*+3
*No, No, That Went Wrong! 1x/day, Bonus Feat


*3rd
*+2
*+1
*+1
*+3
*


*4th
*+3
*+1
*+1
*+4
*


*5th
*+3
*+1
*+1
*+4
*Bonus Feat


*6th
*+4
*+2
*+2
*+5
*No, No, That Went Wrong! 2x/day


*7th
*+5
*+2
*+2
*+5
*


*8th
*+6/+1
*+2
*+2
*+6
*Bonus Feat


*9th
*+6/+1
*+3
*+3
*+6
*


*10th
*+7/+2
*+3
*+3
*+7
*Even happier thoughts; No, No, That Went Wrong! 3x/day


*11th
*+8/+3
*+3
*+3
*+7
*Bonus Feat


*12th
*+9/+4
*+4
*+4
*+8
*It's Not Meant To Go That Way! 1x/day


*13th
*+9/+4
*+4
*+4
*+8
*


*14th
*+10/+5
*+4
*+4
*+9
*No, No, That Went Wrong! 4x/day; Bonus Feat


*15th
*+11/+6/+1
*+5
*+5
*+9
*


*16th
*+12/+7/+2
*+5
*+5
*+10
*


*17th
*+12/+7/+2
*+5
*+5
*+10
*Bonus Feat


*18th
*+13/+8/+3
*+6
*+6
*+11
*No, No, That Went Wrong! 5x/day


*19th
*+14/+9/+4
*+6
*+6
*+11
*


*20th
*+15/+10/+5
*+6
*+6
*+12
*It's Not Meant To Go That Way! 2x/day, Bonus Feat

[/table]

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-18, 04:13 PM
I think it would be CUTE (TM) if the progression of Happy Thoughts was called Even Happier Thoughts. ;D

belboz
2006-09-18, 04:22 PM
:) Done.

I also added a note at the bottom about something this table brings up. Not that it's a *terrible* thing, I just think it's nice if characters see something new beyond HP/skills each level (better BaB, better saves, or some new special ability).

Randomman413
2006-09-18, 06:03 PM
Getting new skills at that level, while, granted, not a whole new special ability, actually gives the Dreamer one more use of Happy Thoughts if they put a rank in Imagine that level.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-19, 02:19 AM
Just a realization during my insomnia. The L17 ability "Dream Avatar" makes you Large size. Children, usually being under four feet, are considered Small (or at least I always have), which would mean that you'd have to do a variety of things to get them to Large. I believe it's Str +4, Dex -4, -2 to AB, -2 to AC, and Weight x16.

Also, it should enumerate that you take up 10' and have a reach of 10', as well as have a provision for what happens if you don't have enough space to reach full Large size. Otherwise, we might have Dreamers crushing themselves in their playhouses. I'll refer you to the psionic power Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) for this.

Finally, I think it'd be kinda neat if the Dreamer's Imaginary Friend could manifest during this as well. Not gaining the same benefits of course, but perhaps acting as a Shadow or Allip or somesuch incorporeal creature does.

belboz
2006-09-19, 12:47 PM
HPoB: You're right, of course. And actually, this only affects two levels, because I'd missed the dream avatar ability at L.17. So it's not much of a problem--just two levels out of 20 that are slightly less "cool" than the rest.

Fax: Definitely right about the avatar size. The imaginary friend is an interesting idea too. There are already a couple of (non-reviewed, so not definitely in) ways to improve an imaginary friend: A 10-level PrC that merges the friend with a stuffed animal of increasing powers and bond, for good characters, and a feat that basically turns the imaginary friend into an evil, intelligent invisible stalker, for non-good characters.

I don't want to get into a vote on those now, since that would be putting the cart before the horse, but it might at least be worth discussing whether, *in general*, a combat-worthy imaginary friend should be a class feature of the dreamer or a customization option. (If the latter, we can figure out the specifics of the customization option when we start reviewing customization mechanics.) Or both, I suppose, but then we'd have to be careful about interaction.

Randomman413
2006-09-19, 03:53 PM
If all of the children are about the same size, then wouldn't they all just count as medium? It would be a lot simpler and solve the problem of the Dream Avatar increasing the Dreamer two size categories (unless that's what was intended).

Fax Celestis
2006-09-19, 04:30 PM
As far as I'm aware, parents and other adults do exist (and are even deities in some regards). They are medium creatures.

belboz
2006-09-19, 05:45 PM
Yeah, I'm down on changing the interpretation of sizes from standard D&D. *So* much depends on them. Far easier to specify that CUTE PCs, as children, are one size category smaller than the usual for their race (that is, in a campaign with only human PCs, size S; halfling or gnomish children, if allowed, would be size T). I'm pretty sure, for example, that all the monsters designed for CUTE so far (not to mention any monster a CUTE DM might want to borrow from a non-CUTE source) are using the standard size categories.

So, if we don't want a 2-category size increase via "dream avatar," I'd vote for changing Large to Medium (about right for a superhero, I'd say, and certainly compatible with "large stuffed animal" or "angel"). Or better yet, change it to "increases one size category".

If the idea *was* a 2-category increase, it'd probably still be better to say that explicitly ("increases 2 size categories"). Should probably also keep it from stacking with other size-increasing effects, unless we explicitly want it to (I'd suggest not).

Expansion (or the boosted version that gives you 2 categories) seems like a good template. Effects as per that power, plus...er...some additional bonuses. Maybe all the listed ones, even when they stack? So, Con +4, +4 competence bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks, Str +4 *in addition* to any provided by the size increase, and either a fly speed of 30 (good) (plus any land speed increase gained from the size increase) *or* a +20 *additional* land speed bonus (beyond any gained from the size increase).

Too powerful? I don't think so--it's a 17th-level power only usable a few times per day; it should be a lot better than a standard Expansion. But just an idea.

The alternative would be to drop the bonuses/options that duplicate size increase effects, or to make them overlap. But stacking sounds reasonable to me.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-19, 06:35 PM
The ability was intended to increase the Dreamer by two size categories (generally, angelic beings in D&D are Large sized, anyway). I didn't really think about all the bonuses and penalties size increases gives you; incorporating them into the ability would probably be a good idea, yes.

So, that would be a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Consitution, a -4 penalty to Dexterity, a -2 penalty on AC (or, to put it another way, a -1 size penalty to AC instead of the usual +1 size bonus to AC kids get) and a +4 bonus to Will saves and Imagine checks. Right, that works...

Makes it a bit more powerful, too, as befits a seventeenth-level ability.

Maybe it could be a +4 enhancement bonus to both Strength and Consitution, and a +4 size bonus to Strength on top of that?

belboz
2006-09-19, 07:36 PM
That sounds right. The only reason I'd be inclined to make it +2 size categories, rather than "large size", is to keep it from being even *more* powerful for Tiny PCs such as halfling kids (in campaign worlds that allow them; I'm *assuming* that, while "human only" is certainly a reasonable campaign option, it won't be *required* by core CUTE)...

...and even if we don't allow Tiny PCs, there's the issue of *NPC* Dreamers. I could easily imagine a DM, even one who avoids monstrous PCs, wanting to run, say, a goblin child (T) or a hill giant child (M) as a Dreamer (after all, surely the imagination is full of goblins and giants, even if the "real world" isn't)...and I assume they should all get similar bonuses out of that ability. That would require that the goblin end up M, and the hill giant end up H (which sound like the right sort of dreams for little goblins and "little" hill giants to have, respectively).

Mephibosheth
2006-09-19, 11:33 PM
Let me first say that I have long thought the Dreamer is a great base class, and the comments made so far only improve it.

I think my only suggestion that hasn't been mentioned either here or in the original CUTE thread has to do with the Dreamer's weapon and armor proficiency list. As you have it now, the Dreamer is proficient with a few weapons, none of which is that great (save perhaps the skipping rope) and absolutely no armor. At the same time, however, the Dreamer gets moderate BAB and d6 HD which, while pretty low, can net better HP than a wizard or sorcerer. Plus, you have the Dream Avatar ability which tries (and largely succeeds) to make the Dreamer a combat monster. On top of that, the Dreamer can heal, summon, mess with what just happened in the combat, or direct his/her imaginary friend. To me, it seems like the Dreamer gets the short end of the stick when it comes to options in combat (though this is ameliorated slightly by UMD and feat selection). I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to give the Dreamer proficiency with light armor and perhaps one or two new weapons (slingshot and stick sword come immediately to mind as good additions). These changes would make that Dream Avatar ability a lot tastier, since I could actually wade into combat for a round or two, deal some decent damage, and perhaps survive to tell the tale. I think that these additions would also give the Dreamer a few more options for what to do with his/her rounds in combat. I also think that the weapon/armor lists need serious work, but that's a whole other issue that will be dealt with (I'm sure) in the future.

Mephibosheth

Fax Celestis
2006-09-19, 11:41 PM
You know, I'm going to have to agree with Mephi on this one: despite Dream Avatar's utility compared to, say, Transformation, he does have a point.

Slingshot does sound like a good idea, and I have just spontaneously acquired the idea to do a Slingshot Master class. Perhaps I'll draw it up while I'm in Reno these next two days.

Also, I have a favor to ask: Critique? (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11587234 37)

Collin152
2006-09-20, 12:42 AM
Now that I get a chance to really look at the Dreamer, it looks so flexible `tis melting.Tm
it can Heal like a demon(Oxymoron), summon like a beast(Inverse example), buff itself to phenomenal proportions(word choice) and cn pull off a feat that typically requires a prestige class or something. (Fatespinners do that, right? too lazy). it dosent seem to have a unifying crunchy theme. Flavor wise, is as solid as a mountain, and Balanced or not, it seems kind of... Skewed... to me.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-20, 11:53 AM
The crunchy theme is thus: Dreamer's manipulate the Imaginal Plane directly, without those silly parental rules or bedtime stories. ;)

(They're kinda similar to the bard, with many different powers stemming from one universal source. In this case, it's their imagination, instead of the bard's music.)

There we go.

belboz
2006-09-20, 01:23 PM
I was thinking about that question last night, and here's how those thoughts ran:

The *basic* explanation was Yuki's. Dreamers have a deep, intuitive connection to the imagination--as opposed to other classes, who get there by various techniques. To go into more detail, it seems like *almost* everything about the dreamer can be summed up under one of two headings:

Story Revision
Because dreamers see the world as they want it to be, rather than as it is, they can make certain changes to the world's "storyline," making it (partially) as if events that don't fall within their personal stories never really happened. "No, no, that went wrong!" and "It's not meant to go that way!" are obvious cases of this, but even "Happy Thoughts" can be considered in this light: You can think of it as the dreamer actually *undoing* injuries that aren't part of the way he/she sees the plot.

Imaginary Companions
Dreamers need something to *populate* their active fantasy life with. Because of this, they can draw creatures from pure imagination. This counts the "Imaginary Friend" and "Imagination Made Flesh" features, and *arguably* the "Dream Avatar" feature as well. (Under the idea that what they're really doing is creating a creature that *merges* with them, in the style of The Giant's Champion class.)

That said, I think that, while Mephibosheth may be right that they should have somewhat better melee choices, I think it's important that they not be made *too* valuable as melee fighters in general. It really doesn't go well with their concept. In particular, it seems *really* weird to me to have them going around, by default, wearing armor. I'm wondering if instead, they could get a more...*thematic* ability to use during combat.

THe exception is the Dream Avatar. Obviously, a dreamer in Avatar form should be a combat monster. Maybe give it some deflection AC and the ability to do unarmed damage, rather than generally buffing up the Dreamer?

If you *do* want the Dreamer to more regularly wade into combat, I suggest making them do it the dreamer way. Here's one option I can think of:

Rather than having the Dream Avatar ability come as all-or-nothing at level 17, give it to them much earlier, in a much weaker version, and have it scale. Such as:

At level 5, the dreamer can become a dream avatar. THe dream avatar gets no size increase, but gets a +2 to strength, +2 to con, and a +2 to will and imagine checks. The dream avatar automatically has the feat Improved Unarmed Strike, and can do 1d8 base damage with an unarmed blow. They gain a deflection bonus of +3 to AC, and DR 1/-.

At level 11, the dreamer's dream avatar gets a +1 to size, and an enhancement bonus of +3 to strength, +3 to con, and a +3 to will and imagine checks, as well as a +10 bonus on base land speed. The avatar's unarmed strike does 1d10 base damage and is considered magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. They gain a deflection bonus of +6 to AC, and DR 3/-.

At level 17, the dreamer's dream avatar gets the full current list of abilities: +2 to size, enh. bonus of +4 to strength, +4 to con, +4 to will and imagine checks, as well as either a +20 bonus to base land speed or a fly speed of 30 (good), plus the improved Imagination Made Flesh. The avatar's unarmed strike does 2d8 base damage, and is considered both magic and adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. They gain a deflection bonus of +9 to AC, and DR 5/-.

There we go. A few times a day, a dreamer (of level 5+) gets to be a combat monster--without normally being someone you'd throw into a fight.

Thoughts?

Elrosth
2006-09-20, 10:20 PM
I like the progression. Would the number of uses per day scale just according to the class, or would it be modified by an ability score?

Something that caught my eye when you mentioned it was the fly speed. Is there any way that could be integrated earlier to scale? Perhaps with some penalties involved? It isn't necessary or anything, but I picture a lot of Dreamers sitting in class, or laying on a hill, watching birds fly. In fact, that is one of the first things that came to mind when I first read about the class. So when you mentioned the fly speed, I realized that one of the first things I picture a standard Dreamer doing with their imagination is flying like a bird.

That's just me though. I don't know how you'd represent it very eloquently in mechanics, it'd probably either be overpowered or pointless if it was implimented. Just a thought.

Ooh. Idea. Perhaps it could be sort of like a Clairvoyance/Clairaudience ability, or that scrying-eye spell whatever it was called. Instead of actually giving them a fly speed, maybe they could just kind of project their awareness in a way that would allow them to float up there with their feathered friends. Sounds rather Dreamer-y, too.

Bird's-Eye View Any Dreamer worth his salt has spent many-a school-day staring out the window, watching hawks and eagles lazily circle in the sky. If only they, too, could look down on their tiny city from a mile up, free from the worries of life on the ground. At 2nd level, the Dreamer learns the ability to push their awareness out of their bodies, giving it form and allowing it to travel on it's own. This awareness functions as a Clairvoyance/Clairaudience spell, allowing the Dreamer to see and hear as if he was currently at that spot. A Dreamer's awareness may travel up to one mile away from the Dreamer before reaching it's limit. However, the awareness only functions if it is in the Dreamer's line of sight. It may move out of the line of sight normally, but it fails to transmit any sort of sensory information whatsoever to the Dreamer until it once again enters the Dreamer's line of sight. Therefore, the main purpose of this ability is merely to provide a different perspective, rather than to spy on a hidden or secret location.

A Dreamer may project his awareness a number of times per day equal to his Dreamer level plus his wisdom bonus. This also calculates the number of minutes each use of the awareness lasts. During the process, the Dreamer is only vaguely aware of his surroundings. Should he be forced back into his own awareness for any reason, such as a teacher's ruler being smacked onto his desk, he must make a DC 15 concentration check to avoid wasting the rest of the duration, and even then only if he returns to the ability within one round. In regards to it's physical makeup, the awareness acts similar to light: it cannot pass throughout solid objects, except those that are transparent such as glass or water. The awareness is weightless, and is invisible to everything short of a True Seeing spell. The awareness can travel any direction, even straight up, so long as it's path is not blocked by solid material.

Hmm... Just a *little* wordy for a single ability... But you get the idea. Thoughts?

Fax Celestis
2006-09-20, 10:52 PM
Nothing wrong with wordy.

I do not, however, like the progression on Dream Avatar. To me, it seems that the class is based around imagining things, not stepping on everyone. We're not trying to make CUTE-CoDzilla (are we?).

The Dream Avatar should be a side-effect, if anything, of their increasing Imagineering prowess. That being said, the "wordy" ability suits me fine and should probably go into the progression at, say, level 2, or the "empty" level closest to it.

belboz
2006-09-21, 12:36 AM
I like Bird's-eye view too. It doesn't *obviously* fit in with the other abilities in terms of "crunchy theme," but maybe that's OK.

I'm certainly not wedded to the avatar, even in its original form (much less the progression). It was just an attempt to, as Mephibosheth described it, keep the dreamer from getting "the short end of the stick when it comes to options in combat."

If that's *not* an issue, or if I misunderstood the issue, we can certainly drop the Avatar progression (and maybe even ask whether the Avatar is necessary at all). I'd just prefer an avatar progression to, say, putting the Dreamer in armor or making his/her *ordinary* form more of a front-line combatant.

Elrosth
2006-09-21, 01:44 AM
You know, just throwing this out there, but perhaps the concept of the Dreamer wouldn't be done justice if it was given a set progression. Would there be a way to make a small collection of different abilities that the Dreamer could progress through, emphasizing the sort of Dreamer you'd like to be?

For example, all Dreamers would recieve Out Of It. After that, perhaps you want to take the bird's-eye view thing. Then, you might wish to invest your next few abilities in a small tree for your Invisible Friend. As you got higher, you might consider the avatar thing.

Another person might get Out Of It, and start on the Happy Thoughts tree. Then he might get the Imaginary Friend, or perhaps an ability more closely related with the whole "good vibes" thing from Happy Thoughts.

Yet another person might focus their progression on actual dreams, perhaps ripping out the still-beating heart of the Bedtime Warrior class in the process.

I'm not sure if that'd actually be a good suggestion, but it crossed my mind. I need sleep however, so I should probably read this again in the morning when I'm coherent. Glad you liked the bird's-eye view thing though.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-21, 07:43 AM
I don't particularly like classes that have a long list of special abilities they can choose from. It makes me think the designers didn't really know what they wanted to do with the class.

However, in CUTE, generally feats grant abilities above and beyond those granted by normal feats (we should probably make an "Imaginal" type of feat, which grant supernatural abilities..)... So some of the Dreamer's abilities could easily be feat trees.

Perhaps we could cut out a few of the abilities (I'm not really tied too much to the idea of the Dream Avatar) and instead spread out the abilities and grant the dreamer some bonus feats. It would probably be a good idea to make it so that the feats have to be Imaginal feats (kinda like the bonus feats psions and psychic warriors get)...

However, I don't want to get rid of Happy Thoughts, or the other "rewriting" abilities...

Elrosth
2006-09-21, 09:03 AM
Yeah, I was tired when I wrote that... I've been on a pretty weird sleep schedule lately. I think maybe I had been thinking about those special abilities rogues get at level 10(?), like Opportunist or Slippery Mind. Or maybe the fighter bonus feats. I dunno. But yeah, now that I read it while coherent, I don't like it either. I like the Imaginal feat idea.

Aeschylus
2006-09-21, 01:46 PM
Hye i made a class like yours! i will post it and we can compare!

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-21, 02:16 PM
...Please don't, that'll just confuse the issue even further.

But, by all means, post any suggestions you have.

Elrosth
2006-09-21, 02:25 PM
lol

belboz
2006-09-22, 12:40 AM
However, in CUTE, generally feats grant abilities above and beyond those granted by normal feats (we should probably make an "Imaginal" type of feat, which grant supernatural abilities..)... So some of the Dreamer's abilities could easily be feat trees.

Perhaps we could cut out a few of the abilities (I'm not really tied too much to the idea of the Dream Avatar) and instead spread out the abilities and grant the dreamer some bonus feats. It would probably be a good idea to make it so that the feats have to be Imaginal feats (kinda like the bonus feats psions and psychic warriors get)...

However, I don't want to get rid of Happy Thoughts, or the other "rewriting" abilities...

That would work. If the worry is that the Dreamer isn't customizable enough, then dropping all the summoning features plus the avatar, and replacing them with bonus feats (which *can* be used for those purposes, but can also be used for some others) is an interesting idea.

But *is* the dreamer too inflexible? They're maybe not as customizable as a fighter, rogue, or wizard in terms of class abilities...but they seem about as customizable as, say, a paladin or monk, no?

I guess it sounds to me like we're being pulled in two directions--there's Collin's worry that the class is "melting," and Elsroth's worry that it's *too* rigid. I'm pulled about equally between them, which makes me feel like it's just about right.

Aeschylus
2006-09-22, 01:09 AM
But i made a 20 level class...i didtn ever copy any of your ideas :(

Elrosth
2006-09-22, 03:50 AM
Yes, she wasn't bashing your class. In CUTE, we've been having somewhat of an identity crisis with our materials, such as classes stepping on each other's toes, grouping weird, and just not being very agreeable to mapping into their specific roles. Throwing in your class would only muddle things further. That was all she was saying.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-22, 04:04 AM
Yes, she wasn't bashing your class. In CUTE, we've been having somewhat of an identity crisis with our materials, such as classes stepping on each other's toes, grouping weird, and just not being very agreeable to mapping into their specific roles. Throwing in your class would only muddle things further. That was all she was saying.

...

Psst! Blue Mars symbol!

Fax Celestis
2006-09-22, 04:17 AM
It's the skirt. Throws everyone off.

Elrosth
2006-09-22, 07:16 AM
LOL! I can't believe I did that. I knew that too, I've seen you explain it to probably a dozen people. I'm sorry.

You'd think I of all people wouldn't mess that up, being a guy with a girl avatar too...

Fax Celestis
2006-09-22, 02:38 PM
Funnily enough, so'm I.

belboz
2006-09-23, 06:06 PM
I'm not, but as a living guy with a dead guy avatar, I understand the whole "not as I seem" thing. Although funnily enough, nobody's ever assumed I was dead.

OK, back on track. Yuki, what are your general thoughts on your Dreamer's direction, given the discussion you've seen so far on the thread? What abilities, if any, are you currently inclined to change? Would you like to edit to a new version reflecting those changes you feel comfortable with making?

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-23, 06:25 PM
Okay, here are my thoughts: Imaginary Friend, Imagination Made Flesh and Dream Avatar can be removed and remodeled as feats.

The Dreamer will recieve bonus feats every so often which have to be of the Imaginal type..

Other than that, no clue what changes to make, honestly.

belboz
2006-09-23, 07:01 PM
Cool...so, maybe at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels the dreamer gets a bonus Imaginal feat? Or is that too rare?
(It's a little rarer than the sheer # of new abilities + upgrades the dreamer would be losing--I count 7 of those--but I take it that the flexibility [such as the ability to use non-bonus feats to improve these features] would make up for that.)

Do you mind if I post a list of potential versions of Dreamer feats (not in this thread) to serve as a memory aid? Or would you rather do so? We wouldn't be evaluating those now, of course--just to get them out there so that the content doesn't get lost.

Issues remaining that wouldn't be obviated by this change:

-Whether and when "It's Not Meant To Go That Way!" should undo *everything* that happened the previous round (including consumption of concrete and abstract resources), as opposed to just undoing "effects." (My suggestion is for "always"; I think it's plenty powerful and much more flavorful if it leaves nothing but memory of what happened the round before. Think of all its uses--avoiding traps, avoiding surprise, nullifying a round full of really unlucky rolls, getting an extra round of knowing the bad guys' strengths or weaknesses...)

-What to do with "Happy thoughts" if the intended recipient has already acted that round. (My suggestion is to disallow, as above).

-Whether the dreamer's weapon/armor proficiencies need an overhaul. (My suggestion is no on the armor. I'm neutral on the weapons, but I think the list should still be kept *pretty* limited if it's expanded at all.)

Please let me know if I'm missing anything.

Elrosth
2006-09-23, 09:24 PM
I forget if this was covered elsewhere, but what happens if the Dreamer wants to heal a character that is unconscious? Is it not possible because the character can't act? Not possible because he can't think happy thoughts? Or does it work anyway?

I'm assuming it doesn't work, however given the somewhat abstract nature of these types of characters, I could possibly see the kid who was "unconscious" as simply out of the game instead of passed out on the playground. That would let the happy thoughts be initiated with the out-of-play, yet fuly functional, kid.

Just curious as to how we decided that worked.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-23, 10:41 PM
I forget if this was covered elsewhere, but what happens if the Dreamer wants to heal a character that is unconscious? Is it not possible because the character can't act? Not possible because he can't think happy thoughts? Or does it work anyway?

I'm assuming it doesn't work, however given the somewhat abstract nature of these types of characters, I could possibly see the kid who was "unconscious" as simply out of the game instead of passed out on the playground. That would let the happy thoughts be initiated with the out-of-play, yet fuly functional, kid.

Just curious as to how we decided that worked.

Dreamers have a secondary use of Happy Thoughts which requires no action on the part of the people being healed. It heals less but heals in an area instead. :P That's how they heal people who're unconcious or dying.

Collin152
2006-09-23, 10:47 PM
At which point they are concious and able to recieve bigger healing. ;D

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-23, 10:55 PM
At which point they are concious and able to recieve bigger healing. ;D

Well... as long as the Dreamer rolled high enough on her Imagine check to bring them to positive hit points.

Collin152
2006-09-23, 10:58 PM
Bah. Any Dreamer worth anything will be able to auto-positivise them.

belboz
2006-09-23, 11:27 PM
Clever thinking. I like that idea better than *assuming* that an "unconscious" character is just out of play and therefore able to participate, because I think we'd actually decided that we *wouldn't* decide this one way or the other. It's up to the individual GM how to deal with what "injury," "unconsciousness," and "death" mean in the CUTE universe--from a GM who wants to keep everything light and let them just be in a "you're dead--you have to lie down now" sense, through a GM who wants to do that at low levels but allow the deep imaginal to be a more dangerous place, throguh a GM who wants a dark, "Grimm"-type campaign, where Bad Things are, in fact, very real.

Elrosth
2006-09-23, 11:55 PM
Alright. I didn't read it correctly. I must've been tired at the time, I thought the alternate use was gained at a later level as you advanced the ability. Never mind. :)

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-25, 04:43 PM
Okay.. here is the altered Dreamer!

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Dreamers are proficient with the pencil, the ruler, the book and the skipping rope. Dreamers are not proficient with any type or armour or shields.
Out Of It: Dreamers are in an almost constant daydreaming daze. While they can see the real world well enough, they take a -2 penalty of Search, Spot and Listen checks, but in return recieve a +2 bonus on Will saves and Imagine checks.
Happy Thoughts: Good vibes can be a very potent thing when they come from a dreamer. Once per day per rank of Imagine a dreamer possesses, she may heal her allies of their wounds. Both the dreamer and her target must hold hands and take a full-round action concentrating on all things good and fun and fluffy. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity, although if either are attacked the dreamer must make a Concentration check as if casting a first level spell. At the end of the round, the dreamer makes an Imagine check against a DC of 10, healing her target of 1d6 points of damage if she succeeds. If she beats the DC by five or more, she heals another 1d6 points of damage for every five she beats the DC by.
Alternatively, the dreamer may take a full-round action on her own to instead heal all allies within 30 ft. of 1 damage per dice of damage she would normally heal.
At tenth level, the dreamer's healing dice increase to d8, and the damage she heals using the secondary use of this ability increases to 2 per dice she would normally heal.
A Dreamer may not have more uses of Happy Thoughts per day than three more than her Dreamer level (4 uses maximum at level one, five at level two, and so on).
No, No, That Went Wrong!: At second level, a dreamer may reattempt any saving throw, skill check, attack roll or damage roll once per day. She must declare that she is using this ability before the results of the action are announced, and must take this new roll, even if it's worse than the first one.
At sixth level, and every fourth level thereafter (10th, 14th and 18th) the dreamer may use this ability an additional time per day.
Bonus feat: At fifth level, and every third level level thereafter (8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th), a dreamer gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a Dreamer feat. The dreamer must meet all prerequisites of a feat in order to take it as a dreamer bonus feat.
It's Not Meant To Go That Way!: At twelfth level, a dreamer can choose to disbelieve a course of events once per day. If she makes a DC 25 Imagine check, she can reverse all the effects that transpired since her last turn. All spells and abilities are still used, but their effects are nullified. This ability can even return a dead ally back to life, providing they died after her last turn.
At twentieth level, a dreamer can use this ability twice per day.


I think the bonus feats are a little too rare, but... well, what do you think? The rest of the class is unchanged, so I won't bother posting class skills or whatnot.

I personally don't think the dreamer needs more weapon proficiencies, and I'm loath to give her armour...

Elrosth
2006-09-25, 05:08 PM
I think it's looking good. I don't think the bonus feats are too rare, but I could be wrong. I'd be fine with this passing as-is. Anyone else?

Fax Celestis
2006-09-25, 05:20 PM
Every-three bonus feats are good, because it's not as good as a fighter-type's every-two, but not as sucky as a wizards every-four.

Also, good job on ensuring they don't come on natural feat-gaining levels.

I think it's good as-is, especially with the wide variety of applications available to the Dreamer now. A question, though: not sure about the Dreamer feat I made and stuck in the Dreamer Feats thread.

belboz
2006-09-25, 05:31 PM
Maybe I'll try for every-three. Standard feats are 1,3,6,9,..., right? Maybe I'll try for 1,4,7,10,... instead. We can always max out self-stacking feats and up the requirements in feat chains to keep the dreamer from pushing a single chain so hard that it gets unbalancing. It does seem like the Dreamer's a little light on "specialness" with only the 5 bonus feats total.

My only worry about Share Imagination is that it *might* come close to stepping on the toes of the (currently unevaluated, so this *might* be moot) Panlid Champion class (a fighter-W/O-bonus-feats type who gets by on imagining relatively useless objects to be powerful equipment). But I do think that final decisions about specific feats can be left to the point where we start evaluating feats in general.

[edit: OK, done. That's 7 bonus feats total--exactly the number of lost ability improvements.]

Fax Celestis
2006-09-25, 05:38 PM
Yeah, bonus feats at 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 would be good.

Or conversely, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.

But that really comes down to whichever progression lines up with less class abilities.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-25, 05:42 PM
Oh, I like the 2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 16, 19 progression. Can we go with that?

belboz
2006-09-25, 05:48 PM
That wouldn't be an even gain, though--generally 1 bonus feat per three levels, but with a "glitch" between 11 and 13, speeding up gain by a single level. We could do that, but isn't it...weird?

The 1,4,7,10,13,16,19 progression lines up with 2 class abilities, plus one standard feat (at first level).

The 2,5,8,11,14,17,20 progression lines up with 3 class abilities, but no standard feats.

The 2,5,8,11,13,16,19 progression would line up with just 1 class ability, and no standard feats, but is kind of a non-standard progression.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-25, 05:48 PM
Oh, I like the 2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 16, 19 progression. Can we go with that?
...despite that there's only one level between 11 and 13? I suppose. It just seems a little strange to have it uneven like that.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-25, 05:51 PM
...despite that there's only one level between 11 and 13? I suppose. It just seems a little strange to have it uneven like that.

...That was a typo.

I meant 11, 14, 17, 20 at the end there...

Fax Celestis
2006-09-25, 05:56 PM
Sure you did. :P

belboz
2006-09-25, 06:05 PM
OK, the chart now reflects a bonus feat at level 2, and every third level thereafter, totalling to a seventh bonus feat at level 20.

So...er...are we done? Yuki, final thoughts about the three "remaining issues" I posted above?

Assuming we're done, the next step is to choose another base class.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-25, 06:34 PM
Item the first: I think 'always' is a good answer. Just the knowledge of the round that never happened is enough, I think...

Item the second: Disallow. Both dreamer and target must take a full round action during the same round. The target can go first, though, as long as they both take the action in the same round. :P

Item the third: I want the dreamer's weapon and armour proficiency to stay the same...

belboz
2006-09-25, 06:42 PM
Let's call it a wrap (woohoo!) I'll post (or modify my last post, if nobody else has posted) on the evaluation methodology thread to start us thinking about what class to look at next.

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-25, 06:45 PM
I'll post the finished Dreamer, then. Also, I think this thread should probably be locked, as we're finished with it and I doubt we want it to keep appearing on the front page whenever people read it and want to make a comment... we can use the main CUTE thread for that. :P

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2006-09-26, 12:29 PM
Where were you posting the finished version, pray tell? ^^;

Sorry for coming to the party late, people...but I do have a few...things. *regret*

I like the idea of 'dreamer feats', but I have to say, I don't see a reason not to keep the Imaginary friend as a class feature- that was what we were going to do, wasn't it? Or did I misread?

Dream avatar...I have to think about. I wasn't as crazy about that ability to begin with as I could've been. I like the summon/heal/save aspects of the Dreamer, but I think throwing in a "transformation" power like the avatar kind of steps on the toes of the storybook hero. I'd advocate scrapping the avatar, more or less, but maybe taking a few more steps (armor proficiency, mayhaps, and more weapons, as meph said) to let them last a round or two in combat- although that last isn't really necessary. Aaaand it looks like we scrapped avatar, so okay.

Bleh, I ramble. Let me sum up.
Yes to lack of dream avatar/ replacing dream avatar with dreamer bonus feats. Also yes to "It's not meant to go that way" only resetting (not expending) things, sort of a timeskip dealie? But if we want to keep it as is, okay.

I'm going to have to dispute the loss of imaginary friend/replacing it with feats. I'd say it's not a class feature that needed to be eliminated, and having it around in some form and augmentable by dreamer feats is nice. >_>;

Anyways...again, sorry I'm late and for reopening the debate, but talk to me, guys?

Yuki Akuma
2006-09-26, 12:57 PM
Sorry, Shiny, we're done now. :P Should've posted earlier if you wanted a say. ;)

Not all daydreamers have imaginary friends, anyway, and I wouldn't want such a broadly flavoured class to be too specific...

Elrosth
2006-09-26, 01:15 PM
And in regards to the Imaginary Friend, the bonus feats were intended to come from a list of feats for the Dreamer, like fighter bonus feats. There will be a chain of Imaginary Friend feats that you can improve, so having the Imaginary Friend is certainly still possible and even likely for the class.

belboz
2006-09-26, 04:35 PM
And since the Avatar has been demoted to a feat, we can always decide to scrap it later, when we review feats.