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Tempest Fennac
2009-02-15, 05:27 AM
I was just thinking about what I'd replace Half-Orcs with as a standard race if I was making my own setting, and here's the result so far:

Apefolk.
+2 Str., -2 Int. Low-light vision, able to Take 10 on all Climb checks while having a Climb speed of 20’, +2 to all Survival and Intimidation checks, Weapon Focus with any one melee weapon. Medium sized. Movement: 30'. Favoured Class: Barbarian.

Apefolk are typically nomads who rely on instinct and strength to survive. They have some agriculture, but they prefer to hunt and forage. Males are typically 5’10”-6’10” and 170-300 Lbs, while females tend to be 5’5”-6’3”. They are Patriarchal and their tribes of 20-40 individuals are typically lead by the strongest warrior, who is also more likely then lower-ranking males to mate (Apefolk tend to be polygamous). They resemble Chimps, apart from the fact that they walk upright (they also have more facial hair then chimps). Their arms are slightly longer then a similarly-sized human's arms as well.

Alignment-wise, they tend to be True Neutral, but some tribes may decide to attack other races for food and other supplies. They like sports and feasting while typically lacking an interest in books or learning new things. They tend to wear boots and clothes made out of leather, felt or fur (males tend to go bare-chested unless it’s cold, and both males and females tend to wear trousers rather then kilts/skirts or robes.

Religion-wise, they tend to lean towards Druidic teachings due to Clerics being relatively rare in their culture. They tend to worship gods who have Travel, Weather or Feast as domains if they bother with them at all. Race-wise, they see eye-to-eye with Lizardfolk, and they get on well with other typically strong or tough races such as Dwarves and Gnolls. They tend to find smaller races to be annoying while wondering how they are able to survive.

Age: Adult: 14. Middle Age: 30. Old: 55. Venerable: 75. Maximum age: 1d10+Con modifier.
Class starting points: Simple: + 1d4. Moderate: 1d6. Complex : 1d4+ 1d3.

Wolfbane
2009-02-15, 01:16 PM
I like the ability modifiers and the bonus to skill checks.
I can see why they are True Neutral, but I would likely have them as more Chaotic because(I'm going off of my knowledge of Apes here) I think that they would be very territorial towards each other since that depending on the region you are talking about, there could be a very limited food supply and at the size they are, they'd need a high caloric intake to survive.

I like the fact that they respect strength over other aspects.

The only thing that bugs me is the Weapon Focus with any melee weapon. Do they have the ability to forge metal weapons?

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-15, 01:20 PM
They can forge their own weapons (they aren't that primative:smalltongue:). You have a point about them being terratorial, though. I'd class defending terratories as neutral rather then chaotic due to it being more about survival then freedom, though.

Fay Graydon
2009-02-19, 03:30 AM
I don't think they would wear boots, seeing as an ape can grip with his feet. and I believe that it is that that gives him his advantage when climbing.
And I think that favored classes might be able to include Monk (if this is true then weapon specialization unarmed maybe...)

and in response to Wolfbane, Their weapons could be made out of bone or rock and that may produce slightly duller weaponry, but equally as strong and sturdy as metal and when coupled with their strength then it would mean they are as good as Metal weapons.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-19, 03:35 AM
That is a good point about footwear. I didn't consider giving them feet that could do that to be honest. I'm not so sure about them bothering with training as Monks for the most part, though (that would take more studying then it's worth for them). Who would you have Monks as Favoured classes?

Dirt_Kami
2009-02-19, 11:53 AM
Cool, I like it, I'm definately going to use something based off this in my game. Might change the weapon focus to improved unarmed combat though.

Currently the group I'm playing with consists of

Beebu the Wise, Anthropomorphic Ape cleric of Todd McFarland
Lanzamiento Mierda, Anthropomorphic Monkey wildshape ranger
Bout Rouge, a Vanara spirit shaman
JW Booth, a Monkey Hengeyokai wizard
Kas Nakts, a Hadozee swashbuckler/thug
Mangeur de Merde, Dromite warblade/swordsage

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-19, 01:18 PM
I'm pleased you like it. :smallsmile: I'm guessing your idea is to have them as being more likely to become Monks, right?

Abbott
2009-02-19, 02:10 PM
Why not just give them Improved unarmed strike? That way, they'd be reasonably tough fighters even without weapons.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-19, 02:20 PM
My idea is that using weapons to fight is more practical then using unarmed attacks, which is why I don't think that will fit as well. Also, I don't think IUS would be that useful for most players compared with WF for any weapon.

Baron Corm
2009-02-19, 03:13 PM
For resembling chimpanzees, I think you hit it right on the nose. However, for making an ape of another species, such as gorilla, this doesn't really fit. I would just change the name to chimpfolk and call it a day.

As for balance, definitely take away the Weapon Focus. I'm assuming this was given because they are supposed to be good with tools, but adding a free feat to a climb speed and other reasonable race features just pushes it over the edge. Remember that they're good with tools... for animals. As anthropomorphic creatures they are probably on par with the other races in tool use, except a little worse because of their Intelligence penalty.

Dalek Zek
2009-02-19, 05:15 PM
I like this class, its a good 'monkeyfication' of a youmen. I'm also not sure about the weapon focus. Prehaps a bonus on climb next to the take ten would be more in place. Baberion would be the best class fore them I think, cose there base culture would be feral.

A Maximum age of 1d10+Con modifier however would mean there like to die before becoming adults. Prehaps you mean (1d10+con. modifier)x10?

Dirt_Kami
2009-02-19, 10:59 PM
I'm pleased you like it. :smallsmile: I'm guessing your idea is to have them as being more likely to become Monks, right?

Barbarian as a favored class seems good to me, just playing up the animal side of them having a natural attack.

In my games over the decades no one plays half-orcs or halflings. When I changed the physical appearance of halflings to anthropomorphic forest animals I had two people play them. I was thinking your apefolk idea would do the same for half-orcs in my campaigns.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-20, 02:24 AM
What sort of animals did Halflings become exactly, Dirt? Ironically, those are the only Core race which I really like. (For Half-Orcs, could the problem be that they are underpowered rather then thier apperance?) I didn't really consider them as having natural weapons either (I was mainly looking at the usefulness of the feats, and I thought the Str bonus would cover the fact that they are quite good at punching things).

Dalek, the 1dd+Con is what you add up once the character reaches Venerable rather then being something you'd roll at character creation.

I don't see how Weapon Focus is that powerful; while a +1 bonus to hit would be helpful initially, it would soon become irrelevan, except for boosting Power Attack slightly.

Dirt_Kami
2009-02-20, 02:36 PM
What sort of animals did Halflings become exactly, Dirt?

Everything is the same as a PH halfling just the physical description is different. Animal type based on terrain character is from.

1 Arctic Hare (tundra)
2 Raccoon (forest)
3 Monkey (jungle)
4 House Cat (city)
5 Opossum (swamp)
6 Red Fox (plains)
7 Minitaurs (underground)

So when I saw your apefolk I thought about doing the same for half-orcs.

1 Apefolk (jungle and city)
2 Wolfen (arctic, forest and plains)
3 Neanderthal (mountains)
4 Toad (swamp and underground)

I have already changed the appearance of some monsters as well, the players had a good laugh and eventually caught on. All the various goblinoids and giants are anthropomorphic toads, kobolds in the arctic are penguins.

Made it easier for the jaded players in my gaming group to role-play their first level characters meeting kobolds and goblins for the first time since they didn't recognize them.


Ironically, those are the only Core race which I really like. (For Half-Orcs, could the problem be that they are underpowered rather then their appearance?) I didn't really consider them as having natural weapons either (I was mainly looking at the usefulness of the feats, and I thought the Str bonus would cover the fact that they are quite good at punching things).

I'm not sure why the people that I've gamed with didn't want to play a half-orc or halfling. Most want to play humans and gnomes, and there is always at least one who wants to play an elf, dwarf, drow, goblin or half-ogre.

I've played in games where everyone was a xeph and run games where everyone was an elf and also a dwarven campaign but when I tried to run an all halfling game it never made it past character creation.

I think your version of apefolk is good as it is, I was going to make them slightly more primitive for my campaign so I thought the feat swap for Improved Unarmed Strike would fit better. For the city dwelling apefolk that I'm thinking about now :smallsmile: they will have Weapon Focus.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-20, 02:48 PM
That would make sense for those.:smallsmile: I can see how that would make things more interresting.

ericgrau
2009-02-20, 07:02 PM
A free feat is a bit much to give out for a race that also has a good ability score mod. It also pigeonholes them even more into martial classes. Maybe rogues too. Maybe. I mean, if you wanted a druid that'd make sense RP-wise yet that strength and feat would be pretty useless. Other than the feat I think it's pretty well set up.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 02:17 AM
Why do you think Rogues would suit them? I'd have thought that Int would have been significantly more important then Str to that class. Also, Shapeshifter Druids need high Str.

UserClone
2009-02-21, 08:14 AM
I'd probably also give them +8 racial on climb checks, as most things that have climb speeds do. And maybe improved grapple as a bonus feat (no prereqs) to represent their crushing grip. That's just me though.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 08:16 AM
I never considered grappling (I hate how the rules are so over-elaborate, so I just tend to take a lot of steps out to save time when DMing :smalltongue:). Also, I'm not sure what I'd get rid of if I added a bonus to Climb checks.

Baron Corm
2009-02-21, 12:24 PM
"A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks." That's just part of the rules unless you want to houserule it.

Weapon Focus may not be the most powerful feat, but imagine if a human character chose it as his bonus feat. Now the human character has only +1 skill point per level (which cannot give him an advantage in any skill), compared to everything else the apefolk gets. That's why giving a specific bonus feat is just as powerful, balance-wise, as any bonus feat.

ericgrau
2009-02-21, 01:00 PM
Why do you think Rogues would suit them? I'd have thought that Int would have been significantly more important then Str to that class. Also, Shapeshifter Druids need high Str.
Not very well, but it's more of an option. A melee rogue could fight at least. Hence the 2 "maybes". They're mostly pigeonholed into martial classes like I said. Especially ones with few feats to spare, as that +1 AB feat is almost like giving them +4 strength.


I'd probably also give them +8 racial on climb checks, as most things that have climb speeds do. And maybe improved grapple as a bonus feat (no prereqs) to represent their crushing grip. That's just me though.
Nonono, giving them a climb speed, encouraging a high strength and letting them take 10's at any time is plenty. The DCs for trees and vines/ropes aren't that high. With a +8 bonus you'll have gorillas climbing up walls like spider races. At later levels on ceilings.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 01:09 PM
I didn't realise that +8 rule existed for climb checks to be honest. I'd say an extra skill point is much more worthwhile then a +1 to hit with 1 weapon personally (I know WotC class Str as more important then Int, but I like to be able to max out as many skills as possible).