PDA

View Full Version : New AoO [Feats]



Abd al-Azrad
2006-09-18, 04:48 PM
Been watching a number of incredible fighters recently, most of whom fighting in a particular style relying on taking advantage of an enemy's mistakes and loss of concentration. At least a bit of this was inspired by the fighting style shown by Malcolm Reynolds (Firefly series)- impromptu, efficient, brutal, and capitalising on an opponent's weaknesses.

I don't usually make feats, so let me know what y'all think.

Everpresent Threat

You are always looking to take advantage of the slightest mistake an enemy makes during combat. You have learned to strike when an enemy diverts their attention, even for an instant.

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Base Attack +4, Combat Reflexes

Benefit: Foes you threaten provoke attacks of opportunity when drawing a weapon. The DCs to cast spells defensively or Tumble through squares you threaten without provoking an attack of opportunity are increased by an amount equal to your Base Attack bonus.

Special: Drawing a weapon as a free action (using the Quickdraw feat, for instance) does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even from characters who have taken this feat.


Painful Strike

When you catch an enemy off their guard, you can surprise them with a quick strike that disrupts their focus and causes a great deal of pain.

Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Wis 13+, Base Attack +5, Combat Reflexes

Benefit: Whenever you strike a foe with a successful attack of opportunity, they must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Wis modifier) or be sickened until the beginning of their next turn.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-18, 05:11 PM
...why Wis mod?

zad101
2006-09-18, 05:13 PM
+10 DC is too much tumble DC is already 25 or effectively 35 if you want to move full speed
so your looking at DC's in the possible 40's if you wanna move past the guy
AND
concetration checks to cast defensively are 15 to begin with discounting spell levels so we're looking at DC's from 26-34 for casting defensively
AND
the minimum level for this feat is 4th level

So Everpresent threat is way too powerful
however painful strike seems to be okay

Abd al-Azrad
2006-09-18, 05:29 PM
I was thinking of adding your Base Attack bonus to the DC. Of course, the DC adjustment becomes even greater at higher levels, but the point of the feat is to make it very dangerous to close with the character, based on the character's skill and training in confounding attempts to perform risky maneuvers.

And frankly, the Wis mod for the second feat was more force of habit, keeping with feats like Stunning Fist. It could just as easily be Str mod, but I'm generally worried about giving fighter classes Str-based special abilities. Still, casters don't suffer MAD, why should fighters?

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-18, 05:40 PM
If I were to base Painful Strike on a physical stat, I'd go with Dex; other AoO abilities are based on Dex. You're breaking their concentration either with your personal energy (Wisdom), or your quickness and precision (Dexterity), not through brute force.

Everpresent Threat looks OK to me, actually. The DC to tumble past one at half speed increases to 25; skills are very easy to pump to absurd levels, and it's always good to reward high ranks in Tumble. The concentration DC jumping by 10 doesn't look like a big problem.

Is this just a normal DC increase; fail the check and drop the spell, make it and cast, no AoO, or do they still get to try to cast the spell if they make the normal DC, but they provoke an AoO unless they beat the new DC? The first one would be something that a caster would be aware of (it's harder to defend against this person, and will take more effort); the second would be almost a feint; the warrior looks normal, then takes advantage of the caster's guard being insufficient.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-18, 05:41 PM
I dunno. Wis just doesn't seem to fit for me, nor does Str. Hell, none of them really seem to, but Wis is probably the best choice.

No! Intelligence! +Int mod! And have Combat Expertise be a requirement!

zad101
2006-09-18, 05:52 PM
Everpresent Threat looks OK to me, actually. *The DC to tumble past one at half speed increases to 25
no it increases from 25 to a minimum of 35 thats an impossible DC for what most 4th level parties have to deal with

I say that if you increase the BAB requirement to +12 it will make the feat better and it will fit the flavor better cause you have more experience foiling other peoples attempts to avoid attacks from you

fangthane
2006-09-18, 06:57 PM
no it increases from 25 to a minimum of 35 thats an impossible DC for what most 4th level parties have to deal with

I say that if you increase the BAB requirement to +12 it will make the feat better and it will fit the flavor better cause you have more experience foiling other peoples attempts to avoid attacks from you
Erm, no... The DC for tumbling past an opponent would increase to 25, the DC for tumbling past at full speed to 35, the DC for tumbling through squares he or his adjacent allies occupy is 35 and the DC for doing that full-speed is 45. *With an item to boost it by +5 (500 or 1000 retail depending on where it goes) it's almost trivial for a level 6 rogue. *Perhaps I'm biased after watching a friend play a rogue who couldn't get a tumble check under the low 40s (granted, that was the near-epic crew)

TheOOB
2006-09-18, 08:44 PM
I personally think everpresent threat needs to be either a) weakened, or b) have increased prereqs. At level 4, the average spellcaster will have around +9 to concentraition (thats assuming full ranks and 14 con, not unreasonable). They allready have to roll an 8 or better to defensivly cast one of their 2nd level spells, which means in a defensive situation they allready lose their most powerful spells 40% of the time. With this feat a caster at this level will likely have no chance of beating the DC.

If the feat was at a higher level it would be fine, because by then casters would have time to pump their concentraition skill to higher levels and then they need something to challenge them.

zad101
2006-09-18, 09:20 PM
oh sorry fangthane ur right. I was looking at the wrong part of my SRD.
but even then as theOOB said casters are at an extreme disadvantage. So I still don't think a +12 BAB requirement is unreasonable.

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-18, 09:23 PM
There's a feat that flat-out denies the ability to cast defensively around you in CArc. Besides, casting defensively is not that good; you can just 5' back and cast, unless the attacker is using tactics optimized to keep you from casting, in which case you should not be able to cast. The major balancing feature for spellcasters is that they can be shut down.

zad101
2006-09-18, 09:38 PM
but they are also aware that they cannot cast defensively everpresent threat doesn't allow that. and it drops your caster-level by 4 which this doesn't.

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-18, 10:13 PM
A -4 penalty to caster level does nothing to Fighters and other non-casters; basically, they're saying that casters can't take it. *Not that they'd benefit much anyway.

I think the feat's nearly fine as-is; if I were to nerf it, I'd make it so that you can take AoOs against casters who cast defensively unless they make their checks by 10 or more, or spell out that people are aware that you're more difficult to tumble past.

I still say that if this guy gets right up to a caster with a spiked chain, the caster should die. *It's the caster's job to avoid that situation, and the casters' teammates job to keep the enemies away; they don't need a guaranteed way out of everything. *The idea that casters should be able to handle any situation is why they're overpowered.

Yes, this feat is quite powerful at 4th level, but it's not overpowered. *At 4th level, a wizard can Levitate, or be invisible, or lay down Grease and not let this guy near them. *But, if they mess up to the point where an enemy fighter with Everpresent Threat and a Spiked Chain (or Longspear and Spiked Gauntlets) is right in their face, the guy deserves a chance to kill them.

Besides, a 4th level melee type who closes with a 4th level mage doesn't even need this feat to ensure victory. *A 4th level mage averages 11.5 + 4(Con) HP, so we'll say 15, 18 with Toughness. *A 4th level fighter with a +1 Greatsword (or Magic Weapon spell), 16 strength, and Weapon Specialization does 2d6+7, for an average of 14 damage per hit.

Add on a few points of Power Attack, and the mage is torn to shreds in one attack. *The Mage's AC is probably around 14 + Dex; we'll be generous and say 16. *The warrior has a +4 BAB, +3 strength, +1 Focus, and +1 Weapon, so he has a +9 bonus to hit, hitting on a 7. *Assuming he charges and puts it over to Power Attack, that's a 70% chance of a hit, and 2d6+11 damage per hit, averaging 18. *The mage with Toughness has a slightly worse than 50% chance of remaining intact after this. *He'll lose two points of damage by switching over to a Spiked Chain, but gains the advantage of reach.

This is with barely any buffs or powerbuilding. *Enlarge Person raises strength to 18, for two more points of damage. *Bulls Strength adds 3 damage, and +2 to hit (if pumped over to Power Attack, that's a total of +7 damage).

(Edit): Anyway, I rambled and went off-topic. The point is, at 4th level, if the enemy meleer can hit the mage, the mage is dead already about 50% of the time. This feat merely tips the chances further in the fighter's favor. At low levels it's insignificant because when you'd use it, the mage is dead already, or nearly so, and at high levels the fighter doesn't get the enemy mage in reach.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-09-19, 12:13 AM
Everpresent Threat seems to be the big problem feat right now, with a lot of arguments on both sides.

+10 to the DCs is painful, I give you all that. The point is to make it extremely difficult to avoid attacks of opportunity. There are so many very easy ways to get around provoking as a rogue, or a caster, without having any problems at all. A fighter charges up to you suddenly? Easy answer: DC 19 Dimension Door. Most casters have max ranks in the skill, so a 9th level wizard has usually somewhere between +10 and +14 to Concentrate. They don't fail often enough, which means they get sure of themselves and take stupid risks, like allowing fighters to close.

However, I concede the point that a flat +10 DC at low levels is nasty- it makes the DC almost impossible for tumbling AND concentration. At higher levels, it rewards enemy specialization while punishing those who take unnessecary risks.

I wish to change the DC adjustment to equal the character's Base Attack bonus. This would make the DCs only somewhat more threatening at low levels (thus removing the problem of giving a flat +10 to low level characters) while at the same point making the feat really pay off for clever tactical fighters at high levels. Close with an enemy mage, and they'll really have a problem getting away. Have a rogue tumbling around, trying to find the perfect flanking position, and punish them for their arrogance. This is the sort of feat I'm trying to make.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-19, 01:44 AM
BAB runs into issues at the high end, though. Perhaps twice-INT or twice-DEX?

UnrealTiger
2006-09-19, 02:07 AM
Or perhaps just adding half BAB instead of full BAB would be a better solution to make the feat less nasty at higher levels. I do agree that +full BAB to the DC is a bit too much though, against an opponent of an equal level, let's say a Wizard/Sorceror, their modifier to the Concentration roll would only be 3+Con mod assuming maximum ranks. This would probably equal one Wizard/Sorceror becoming a red smear along the nearest surface.

kailin
2006-09-19, 02:11 AM
It was the tumble that kind of bugged me, but I've held off replying till I had something to add.

As a left-field idea for tumble, how 'bout letting you force opponents to roll successive tumble checks for each threatened square you move through? Keeps the flavor of the feat, suggests tactical choices, and gives you that many chances to nail them without being utter Tumble-hatred. If that's not enough, how about having it end a move action in-progress if an AoO lands?

As far as the defensive casting penalty, I just dunno. Seems okay, but the feat is a bit . . . clogged.

I_Got_This_Name
2006-09-19, 05:35 PM
I think that BAB to Concentration is fine.

Skills are 3+Level+Ability+Others if maxed. DCs should, then, scale with level. Truespeak goes even further than that (because they expect you to pull every trick in the book to boost it), and scales twice as fast.

Concentration and Tumble DCs, however, do not. Concentration scales with half level, for your biggest spells; adding BAB to it means that a wizard will have to choose carefully when they cast in this guy's reach. Tumble doesn't scale at all.

Honestly, though, if you have to cast in a fighter's reach, you're either a healer, a gish, or doing something wrong; this doesn't hurt wizards (at the low end, they're dead. High end, they're out of reach). Healers have to make more tactical decisions, and shouldn't be standing directly on the front line anyway; Gish types suffer a bit from this, but their spells aren't that high level, and it's just more expensive to keep a CC skill maxed; it doesn't have a lower rank, so long as it's class for one of your classes (IIRC).

I don't see a huge problem with Tumble, because it just makes Tumble DCs scale with level.