Linux ITP

[Lupy]

In the past the Playground has had a couple of Linux threads, but none of them (in my memory at least), have been well organized or overly helpful.

The purpose of this thread is as follows:

*To give Linux users a place to talk about Linux (Kde vs Gnome, et cetera)
*To give non-Linux users a place to ask Linux questions

The purpose of this thread is not:

*To bash other operating systems
*To be condescending to people less knowledgeable than you are

So to start it off, here is some information about Linux for people who don't know much about it and would like to:


FAQ

What is Linux?
Linux is an operating system designed to promote free speech. This is because anyone can make any changes they want to Linux, and then do whatever they want with it, unlike certain other operating systems.

Why would anyone use Linux?
I use Linux because if I want to make the windows blue instead of orange, I can, and then if I want to, I can post this new blue Linux online for anyone to download. And on top of that, most distributions use less system resources than other operating systems do, so they run faster.

What is a 'distribution?'
A distribution (or 'distro') is a version of Linux. Most major distributions are largely incompatible though.

What is a 'GUI?'
A GUI is a graphical user interface. It is how the part of the operating system you see looks, and in Linux it is very easy to change back and forth, or even to have multiple ones on one computer. Some examples are KDE (the most popular), GNOME (it's close rival), and xfce (famous for using only minimal system resources and looking nice at the same time).

Do I need another Operating System to use/get Linux?
No. You can put a linux install cd into a computer with no operating system, boot it up, and install Linux as the only Operating system. Most people keep a second operating on their system as well though.

Where can I read more?
http://www.linux.org/ (http://www.linux.org)
http://www.ubuntu.org/ (http://www.ubuntu.org)
http://http://www.kde.org/
http://www.gnome.org/
http://www.xfce.org/


For more experienced users/inquirers:


Get Linux:
http://www.ubuntu.com/
http://fedoraproject.org/
http://www.opensuse.org/

How to install Linux:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation

Customize your desktop:
http://www.gnome-look.org/
http://www.kde-look.org/
http://www.xfce-look.org/

Get software:
http://directory.fsf.org/
http://www.linuxsoftware.org/

Run Windows software of Linux:
http://www.winehq.org/

A word of advice:
The Ubuntu help wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com (https://help.ubuntu.com/)) is an amazing resource for ALL Linux users, as are the Ubuntu forums (http://ubuntuforums.org/).

[Nameless]

Sounds interesting.
I've been thinking about getting Linux at some point in the near future myself.

I don't see how Linux users can bash other operating systems though, Linux needs another system in order to run. :smalltongue:

[Yarram]

Sounds interesting.
I've been thinking about getting Linux at some point in the near future myself.

I don't see how Linux users can bash other operating systems though, Linux needs another system in order to run. :smalltongue:

Huh? No, you don't understand. Linux is a completely independent operating system in the same way Mac and Windows are.
Linux can only run Linux programs, programmed specifically for Linux, unless of course you have programs like "Wine Windows Emulator" which allows me to run any windows program on my Linux.

Firefox and Open Office were also originally made for Linux.

/endreply

Ever tried using Arch Linux? The pacman (no not as in the game) package manager is RLLY good. I use UBUNTU though, because I am only learning the way, and also I can't be bothered to haul my computer under the house and plug it into the network manually so I can download wireless drivers, and then get a new GUI.

[Mordokai]

Tried using Ubuntu and I actually liked what I saw. I was even prepared to go through with the troubles of getting emulators for games(lets face it, I like games and a system without games doesn't mean much to m), but then the network connection screwed me. I tried, I had a couple of friends who know what they are doing better then me do it, but nothing worked. In the end, I gave up and returned to Win XP.

Sorry, but a computer that can't be connected to internet isn't worth much to me.

[Dogmantra]

I have installed Linux twice (openSUSE both times) on this computer, and I've liked it. The only problems I had (and the reason I use Windows XP instead) are my Logitech Fancy Mouse[TM] and games. I'm not good enough and can't really be bothered to fiddle about in WINE to get games working, and when I asked for help making the Back and Forwards buttons on my Logitech Fancy Mouse[TM] work, I had no idea what to do. On the bright side, Linux helped save my computer! I'm content with a Knoppix disc to be perfectly honest :smalltongue:

[Penguinsushi]

I'm a mac user whenever possible, but i have linux installed on my wife's machines (which were my machines before i got my macs).

I thought I should point out this distro, since i haven't seen it mentioned yet:

Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/)

Basically, as it was described to me, it's Ubuntu with about 2 hours of setup work taken out, and it's my new linux distro of choice.

@ Mordokai: No 'net connection? Really? Are you talking the wired connection, or do you mean the wireless? I've never had trouble with the former, but the latter is a pretty well known problem i've battled (and won) several times.
Still, if you really want to play games, you should keep a windows install & dual-boot. Win-emulation has come a long way, but it's still pretty flaky and a pain to use...

@Dogmantra: Yeah, keeping a live cd of some distro around is very handy for system diagnosis/recovery when you otherwise can't get a machine to boot. :smallsmile:

~PS

[bluewind95]

I have Ubuntu on dual-boot on my other computer. I tried to install it on my new computer, but it gave me a few ton of errors, and it being a new computer and all... I just decided to leave it alone. I settled for trying to get used to Vista(eww). I didn't get very far on that, so in just a few days, I made Vista look and act as much like XP and Win98 as I possibly could. And then it went from Vista(eww) to Vista. Now I run Win7.

My experience with Ubuntu was pretty positive. I liked the applications that came with it, and it worked amazingly fast. It really took only a bit over half the time to load than XP did (and XP is a pretty fast-loading system, for a Microsoft OS). Everything I needed worked, and it had some really, really useful tools I could download (and it was so easy to install new things on it! Just select, and click install and there!). And it had games like Tetravex which are just awesome (does anyone know where I can get that game for Windows? I only found the 16-bit version, which won't work without a Win3.11 emulator on my new system, it being 64-bit and all. And it's still in black and white, compared to Ubuntu's awesome color version). Ubuntu was also a LOT better at reading file systems. We had this one SD card that somehow got corrupted and no Windows system could read it (it claimed it was empty), but Ubuntu read and rescued most of the files. It was also very customizable, and really secure (even if it DID ask me for my password to even breathe :smalltongue:) Only slight problem I had with it was system stability. I take a long time to crash Windows, but apparently, I was REALLY good at crashing Ubuntu for silly reasons. Not many times, but certainly for silly reasons.

I miss Ubuntu. I'd definitely dual-boot it (... well, right now, it'd be triple-boot, what with the Win7 installation) with Vista... and use Ubuntu more. But I'm not quite sure how to get past the flood of errors in my disk. And I'm not sure that waiting a few days to get a new disk version would help. It'd tick me off if I had to leave this thing on several days (like I did with Win7) just to get another flood of errors (that at least didn't happen with Win7, though it was quite a chore to get some of the missing drivers installed).

[Nameless]

Huh? No, you don't understand. Linux is a completely independent operating system in the same way Mac and Windows are.
Linux can only run Linux programs, programmed specifically for Linux, unless of course you have programs like "Wine Windows Emulator" which allows me to run any windows program on my Linux.

Firefox and Open Office were also originally made for Linux.

/endreply

Ever tried using Arch Linux? The pacman (no not as in the game) package manager is RLLY good. I use UBUNTU though, because I am only learning the way, and also I can't be bothered to haul my computer under the house and plug it into the network manually so I can download wireless drivers, and then get a new GUI.

I thought you needed a Mac or PV computer first to then install Linux onto. Then when you turn you computer on, you get an option of whether you would like to use Windows/Mac or Linux.

[Jack Squat]

I thought you needed a Mac or PV computer first to then install Linux onto. Then when you turn you computer on, you get an option of whether you would like to use Windows/Mac or Linux.

That's dual-booting. Many people do it, but it's not necessary. If you have a Windows machine and want it to run only Linux, you've got to reformat the drive and then install your Linux flavor of choice as the operating system.

[Haruki-kun]

I thought you needed a Mac or PV computer first to then install Linux onto. Then when you turn you computer on, you get an option of whether you would like to use Windows/Mac or Linux.

Computers are hardware. They don't need Mac or Windows to exist. Once an OS is in the machine, all they know is "Run OS". A computer can run Linux alone without Mac or Windows, or it can run Mac or Windows alone, or it can even run all three if your hard drive can take it.


Tried using Ubuntu and I actually liked what I saw. I was even prepared to go through with the troubles of getting emulators for games(lets face it, I like games and a system without games doesn't mean much to m), but then the network connection screwed me. I tried, I had a couple of friends who know what they are doing better then me do it, but nothing worked. In the end, I gave up and returned to Win XP.

Sorry, but a computer that can't be connected to internet isn't worth much to me.

Installing Wireless drivers.... Pain. In. The. Ass.

Everything else is easy after that.

[Penguinsushi]

Installing Wireless drivers.... Pain. In. The. Ass.

Everything else is easy after that.

Yes, generally. Had no problems in Mint, however...

~PS

[RS14]

I'm a happy Ubuntu user here.

I get the impression that they've dramatically improved much of their hardware support over the last few years. I think I started with Dapper, and needed to work to get sound, trackpoint, and wireless working. I'm currently running Hardy, which installed without any glitches on a similar laptop. If you've had trouble with it before, try one of the more recent liveCDs and see what works.


I don't see how Linux users can bash other operating systems though, Linux needs another system in order to run.

Although you're mistaken, you're also correct. :smallbiggrin:
Linux is the kernel, and is usually distributed with GNU, a free operating system that works quite nicely. However, we usually just call it Linux or GNU/Linux.



So, 2D Boy has released World of Goo for Linux. Has anyone else bought it?

[Lupy]

I hadn't heard about World of Goo coming out for Linux. I'm gonna have to get on Amazon and pick it up after I do some more yardwork.

If you had trouble with the wireless drivers, you're definitely not alone.

What I did was this: I plugged my laptop into a wired connection and downloaded something called madwifi, then set it to turn on at startup. Madwifi has 1000s of wireless card drivers, so it should work if you have an HP/Dell/Acer/other major band.

My friend didn't have that as an option though, his desktop uses wifi, so I am going to burn madwifi to a cd and then take it to him, you could try that.

Also:
Linux mint sounds like quite the deal, I'm going to go check it out. I especially like the "comes with wifi drivers" part.

[Yarram]

Computers are hardware. They don't need Mac or Windows to exist. Once an OS is in the machine, all they know is "Run OS". A computer can run Linux alone without Mac or Windows, or it can run Mac or Windows alone, or it can even run all three if your hard drive can take it.



Installing Wireless drivers.... Pain. In. The. Ass.

Everything else is easy after that.

I never had trouble with wireless drivers. I use a desktop with a generic wireless card in the back, and it just worked when I installed UBUNTU... Actually, I think I recall it not working when I used Gutsy Gibbon. I had to keep it dual-boot so it would import the driver from Windows, but with the Hasty Herron, yeah, it just worked for me +D.

[cody.burton]

Right now, I've got my machine dual-booted - Vista for games and Ubuntu for everything else.

Also, I like Compiz Fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiz_Fusion). It's an advanced window manager that has a lot of eye candy. For example, you can have all of your desktops as different faces of a cube that you can click and drag around.

[Lupy]

I'm giving Compiz Fusion a try, it looks nice. :smallsmile:

[rankrath]

Installing Wireless drivers.... Pain. In. The. Ass.

Everything else is easy after that.

I've had great success getting Edimax cards to work, with minimal effort.

[Penguinsushi]

Also:
Linux mint sounds like quite the deal, I'm going to go check it out. I especially like the "comes with wifi drivers" part.

It doesn't exactly come with all wifi drivers (for legal reasons pertaining to the firmware), but it's smart enough to be able to detect, go get and install them on its own (ubuntu was *fairly* easy here, but fwcutter was kind of arcane)... ...without you having to do much more than say "yeah, do that". Same with nvidia video drivers and any other proprietary/non-free stuff. This, of course, is with respect to my limited scope: i've put it on an old dell lappy with no problems and a home-built system with a hodge-podge of hardware (which is always a challenge)....that is the nice thing about linux: it will run on just about everything.

Tangent: also, i don't know if this is a feature Ubuntu's gnome has picked up yet or not, but i noticed when i installed Mint (also basically gnome) that it includes some features similar to Expose` (one of the things i *really* like about OSX) - which is very nice.

~PS

[Lupy]

Atheros has free drivers for linux, which is nice. And HPs come with Atheros too, which made things relatively easy on me.

[Alair Koraius]

It needs to be said;

chown -R us ./base

Now, onwards. I've never used Linux (besides my friend's Knoppix live disc), as much as I want to. I downloaded Ubuntu, and just haven't gotten around to installing it yet, I'm prolly just gonna make a 200 gig partition for it, but I might wait until I get my second drive in there. (I built my computer from NewEgg)

[valadil]

Tangent: also, i don't know if this is a feature Ubuntu's gnome has picked up yet or not, but i noticed when i installed Mint (also basically gnome) that it includes some features similar to Expose` (one of the things i *really* like about OSX) - which is very nice.

~PS

Ubuntu has this. I think it's called expo, but I'm not sure because I haven't used compiz in a while.

Does anyone mess around with alternative window managers here? I'm giving xmonad a try and really liking it, although it definitely took some getting used to. It's a tiling WM, which means that xmonad fills the screen with your windows so there's no space between them. I wasn't so interested in that - what caught my attention was that xmonad is meant to be used with no mouse. It just so happens that tiling is the best way to do that. Basically each screen has a master window and several other windows that are open. By default, the master gets the left half of the screen and the others divide up the right half. You can change focus between any windows and you can swap windows with the master to move their position. You can also change the layout mode. The options I have for that include a horizontal layout and a full screen layout, but there are others for download too. If you're trying to cut back on mouse use, I highly recommend xmonad, but make sure you read some tutorials before you get started.

[Lupy]

I couldn't get compiz fusion to work. :smallfrown: Other than that, I still don't understand these file managers. Do they replace GNOME or KDE? Or are they like, say, Dolphin?

[Haruki-kun]

I couldn't get compiz fusion to work. :smallfrown: Other than that, I still don't understand these file managers. Do they replace GNOME or KDE? Or are they like, say, Dolphin?

Here (http://forlong.blogage.de/en/entries/2008/4/26/How-to-set-up-Compiz-Fusion-074), try this out.

That's the one that helped me install it.

[valadil]

I couldn't get compiz fusion to work. :smallfrown: Other than that, I still don't understand these file managers. Do they replace GNOME or KDE? Or are they like, say, Dolphin?

Compiz fusion has just worked for me since hardy. Maybe even gutsy.

Gnome and KDE are desktop environments. So is XFCE. They're a suite of programs that together provide a complete desktop experience. A window manager is what contains each window and draws the little close/minimize/maximize buttons. Gnome uses metacity by default, but you can swap it out for another option. Compiz technically functions as a window manager but ends up looking just like metacity. A file manager is like dolphin. It's a program that lets you navigate through your files. Gnome's default file manager is nautilus. It also draws your desktop and in some cases manages your wallpaper.

[three08]

i run ubuntu on a laptop (one of them super-light netbook type dealies, weighs about 2 lbs), and may dual-boot that and XP off my desktop. i dunno what exactly the advantages would be, though.

anyone got any suggestions for a program to capture still frames and/or video from a webcam?

[Jack Squat]

I'm trying out Back Track 4. Looks cool. Can't get my it to recognize the wireless card on my laptop though. It's ubuntu based, so I guess I get to try and search for that.

In the meantime, I'm gonna see about installing it on my flash drive to play around with on my (and possibly the school's) desktops.

[Flame of Anor]

If I have XP and Linux Mint on dual-boot, will I be able to easily access my documents/files/programs/Firefox settings/etc. from both OS's?

[Lupy]

In the meantime, I'm gonna see about installing it on my flash drive to play around with on my (and possibly the school's) desktops.

Trust me, you do not want to put another OS on a school computer, they can and will make you buy a new one.


Compiz fusion has just worked for me since hardy. Maybe even gutsy.

Gnome and KDE are desktop environments. So is XFCE. They're a suite of programs that together provide a complete desktop experience. A window manager is what contains each window and draws the little close/minimize/maximize buttons. Gnome uses metacity by default, but you can swap it out for another option. Compiz technically functions as a window manager but ends up looking just like metacity. A file manager is like dolphin. It's a program that lets you navigate through your files. Gnome's default file manager is nautilus. It also draws your desktop and in some cases manages your wallpaper.

Thank you much.


Here (http://forlong.blogage.de/en/entries/2008/4/26/How-to-set-up-Compiz-Fusion-074), try this out.

That's the one that helped me install it.

And again, thank you much!

---------------------------------------------------------

So, the age old debate... KDE or Gnome? Personally, I use Xfce but I've modified the eye candy to the point where it looks just like KDE. It still runs notably faster however.

[cody.burton]

If I have XP and Linux Mint on dual-boot, will I be able to easily access my documents/files/programs/Firefox settings/etc. from both OS's?

For me, you can access the Windows half of your hard drive from the Linux portion by treating it as an external filesystem. At least for me, Ubuntu automatically found it and placed it in the same directory as CDs and usb drives.

[Jack Squat]

Trust me, you do not want to put another OS on a school computer, they can and will make you buy a new one.

I wouldn't be putting another OS on there...I'd be running it off of my flashdrive.

More than likely though, I'll just stick to using it to hop between my laptop and desktop, since I don't feel like formatting either.

EDIT: besides, right now I'm trying to get the darn thing to recognize my wireless cards.

Curse you Kubuntu!

[Flame of Anor]

For me, you can access the Windows half of your hard drive from the Linux portion by treating it as an external filesystem. At least for me, Ubuntu automatically found it and placed it in the same directory as CDs and usb drives.

That sounds good. Also, is there a way for me to install Linux without a CD? My CD drive has been acting up lately...(I would get it fixed, but it would probably be more cost-effective just to buy a new laptop. I might do just that, of course, but not right at the moment.)

[Lupy]

You can put linux on a flash drive and boot from there. You'll need to change the boot up order of your BIOS though, which is easier done than said.

[Haruki-kun]

You can put linux on a flash drive and boot from there. You'll need to change the boot up order of your BIOS though, which is easier done than said.

Yeah, but you can find instructions online, I'm sure.

[RS14]

That sounds good. Also, is there a way for me to install Linux without a CD? My CD drive has been acting up lately...(I would get it fixed, but it would probably be more cost-effective just to buy a new laptop. I might do just that, of course, but not right at the moment.)

You might want to try UNetbootin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNetbootin). I haven't used it, and cannot vouch for its effectiveness. Also, you still may need a partition editor; I'm not sure.

[Yarram]

Yeah, but you can find instructions online, I'm sure.

No, he means it's actually really easy. All you have to do is push F11, F9, F12 or Delete, depending on what version of Bios you have, and there is a menu that says "Boot menu" with clear instructions on how to make your computer boot from different area's first.

[Jack Squat]

No, he means it's actually really easy. All you have to do is push F11, F9, F12 or Delete, depending on what version of Bios you have, and there is a menu that says "Boot menu" with clear instructions on how to make your computer boot from different area's first.

Yeah...and it normally tells you when loading. On my computer, the menu just asks you where you want to boot from, HD, CD, USB, and a few other things.

@RS14:

That's actually what I used to stick it on my flash drive; works well.

[valadil]

If I have XP and Linux Mint on dual-boot, will I be able to easily access my documents/files/programs/Firefox settings/etc. from both OS's?

As was mentioned, linux can read your windows data. If you use ext2 or ext3 as your linux filesystem (I think they're the default option in ubuntu) you can install "ext ifs" in windows to read your linux data.

Firefox will still be two separate profiles. I strongly recommend installing the Foxmarks extension. It will sync your bookmarks and stored passwords. It won't remember other settings or extensions though. You might want to look into Mozilla Weave if you need to sync anything else, though I don't know if weave is even in beta yet.

[three08]

both times i've installed ubuntu (first hardy, and then intrepid a bit later), i did it using a usb flash drive set up using UNetBootin, and i didn't have to muck about with the BIOS either time.

[Ponce]

Anyone have stories of magnificently nuking one's own system? I have a few!

Tried installing EoG (eye of gnome) from an unsupported repository without properly pegging the system.


bash: ls: command not found

This was the result! Good times! *reinstalls*

Some months later I tried creating a live usb key of Arch. I mess it up the first time so I wipe the key. Suspiciously, however the files remain. A COLD SHIVER RUNS DOWN MY SPINE. Terrified, I type in a command...


bash: cd: /boot/: No such file or directory

Woopsie-daisy!? :smallbiggrin: *reinstalls*

SuperGrub is useful if you happen mess up your MBR when installing several operating systems on one machine.

@Yarram. I used arch for a while. Great if you want to learn, bad if you want your system up and running relatively quickly. Really fast on my netbook

[Flame of Anor]

Anyone have stories of magnificently nuking one's own system? I have a few!

Tried installing EoG (eye of gnome) from an unsupported repository without properly pegging the system.

<computer thing>

This was the result! Good times! *reinstalls*

Some months later I tried creating a live usb key of Arch. I mess it up the first time so I wipe the key. Suspiciously, however the files remain. A COLD SHIVER RUNS DOWN MY SPINE. Terrified, I type in a command...

<computer thing>

Woopsie-daisy!? :smallbiggrin: *reinstalls*

Could you rephrase that in a way that those of us who, while fluent in computers, are not programmers, can understand? It sounds like it might be funny, but I really can't tell.

[three08]

Anyone have stories of magnificently nuking one's own system?

so this is me trying to go from ubuntu 8.04 to 8.10. i have the iso, i have a (hypothetically) prepped flash drive, i have the iso mounted. (it's one a them asus eeepcs, so, no cd drive.) trouble is every time i try to copy it, i get all kinda errors about not having the right permissions and ownership and such. this is after several straight hours and a couple days on and off trying to get a flash drive installer functional, so i'm rather irate by this point. so what do i do?

chown -R username /

well it turns out that's a bad idea. :smallsigh:

[adanedhel9]

One of my friends in college was trying to troubleshoot some problem, and did


$ chmod -Rf -x /

That was pretty much time for a reinstall.

[Lupy]

Wow. :eek: You guys seem to have to do a lot of reinstalls.

The closest I ever came was when I accidently reset KDE's graphics to a setting not supported by my card and the screen went blank. I was able to change the session to Xfce and change it back through that though.

[Ponce]

Could you rephrase that in a way that those of us who, while fluent in computers, are not programmers, can understand? It sounds like it might be funny, but I really can't tell.

Well, for the first essentially I tried to install an image viewer. When I told the computer to do so, it found it had to update some libraries and asked for confirmation. I confirmed so it went ahead and did the updates. These libraries were not compatible with my particular operating system however, so the whole system went down. From trying to install an image viewer. The blame is mine, nevertheless!

For the second, the boot directory is very essential. I messed up the command to erase files from the usb key, and rather than remove the usb key's boot folder, I removed the main boot folder on my hard drive.

Live and learn!

[Lupy]

So, what distro do you guys think has the best Live CD? From my experience, Ubuntu works nicely off the live CD, as does Mandriva, but in Mandriva you cannot change the resolution from 800x600 in the Live CD version.

[valadil]

So, what distro do you guys think has the best Live CD? From my experience, Ubuntu works nicely off the live CD, as does Mandriva, but in Mandriva you cannot change the resolution from 800x600 in the Live CD version.

If I'm doing anything meatier than opening firefox or reinstalling grub, I like knoppix. It's very, very full featured. Quite a few people are content to leave it in their CD drives and never bother installing linux.

Damn Small Linux is also pretty cool. It's something like 50mb and it fits on a business card sized CD. This isn't as practical as I'd hoped, as business card CDs go in my wallet and my wallet gets sat on and my ass breaks CDs. It's still a cool concept though.

[Lupy]

Where do I find CDs that small?