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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-21, 10:07 PM
I played one of these things in NWN a few years back and they seemed to do decent enough. Looking at the Pen and Paper version, it seems as if it isn't as powerful. How many spells would you actually have to use with the AoE Bow ability? What does a decent AA build look like?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 10:10 PM
I played one of these things in NWN a few years back and they seemed to do decent enough. Looking at the Pen and Paper version, it seems as if it isn't as powerful. How many spells would you actually have to use with the AoE Bow ability? What does a decent AA build look like?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Sadly in Pen and Paper: you want as little levels of it as possible.

Its ability to increase enhancement bonus is a 3rd level spell (both Wiz/Cleric know it too).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 10:14 PM
AA is weak. Maybe if you used the Arcane Ranger variant or something, but even then, most of what it does is weaker than standard spells.

Douglas
2009-02-21, 10:32 PM
There is one big difference between the NWN and P&P versions of the Arcane Archer that changes the class's power a lot. In NWN, the AA enhancement bonus stacks with everything else. In actual D&D it's a standard enhancement bonus and overlaps with normal magic weaponry. This is made even worse by the fact that in actual D&D you don't have to get inherently single-use magic arrows to get a magical damage bonus - you can put it on the bow instead, and it even comes standard in a package with the magical attack bonus. Changing Enhance Arrow to provide an untyped attack and damage bonus would make Arcane Archer a reasonable choice for some builds, though still far from being truly powerful.

Imbue Arrow is potentially useful, primarily for the ability to cast centered-on-caster spells as centered-on-arrow instead. Actually making significant use of it, however, requires taking levels in actual casting classes instead of progressing further in Arcane Archer, and a mere 2 level dip gets everything Imbue Arrow will ever provide. All the higher level class features are far too weak, situational, and limited use to be worth it.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-21, 11:15 PM
My friend and I made CR 101 characters. Mine was a 10-Headed Black dragon with innumerable templates added. His was a geshalt wizard/archer type person elf. I utterly destroyed him :smallbiggrin:, but the only thing that let him hurt me at all was the fact that he could channel his stupid sonicballs through his many arrows because of Arcane Archer.

Chrono22
2009-02-21, 11:22 PM
http://kingdoms-of-illuria.googlegroups.com/web/Arcane_Archer.doc?gda=P_6rSEMAAAATo_UWlCRnK1pXp_3A 6TsbAFmF7a9rkCtUYi0jgRhZM_hYKvg2TslCPfE8De5-NhIytiJ-HdGYYcPi_09pl8N7FWLveOaWjzbYnpnkpmxcWg
This is a base class version of the arcane archer prestige class. As homebrew material, of course it is subject to DM approval.

TempusCCK
2009-02-22, 01:09 AM
One feat make Arcane Archers absolutely: Smiting Spell from PHBII. Everything the Arcane Archer needs, only prepared. Elf Wizard with Smiting Spell = Better than the Arcane Archer.

Grynning
2009-02-22, 01:17 AM
I homebrewed a kind of fix for the arcane archer a while back, let me find the thread...

ah, there it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78392).

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-22, 04:45 AM
Yeah, I figured AA were kind of underpowered. When I looked at it, I just thought to myself "Why wouldn't I just be a Cleric with a +1 Shock Fiery Corrosive Bow that buffed it with holy?" That would deal far more damage, and he would still be able to Heal and such.

That being said, are there ANY Archer builds that can actually keep up with a melee class? It seems like a Fighter with a Two-hander and Power Attack (without Shock Trooper) would deal far more damage by just altering his Power Attack so his primary and haste swing would hit for loads of damage. Adding in Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce would just make things pointless to be an Archer. "You may be able to hit me 1 round before I get to you, but I will kill you in the round that I do get to hit you!"

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 05:20 AM
No, not really; damage isn't Archers' primary ability. That said, a few Precision Archers (Swift Hunters most relevantly; Scout/Ranger Multiclass that stacks the classes for Skirmish-progression) can reach comparable damage as a pseudo-melee class; they need to be within 30' (or 60' with some feats) to deal their damage so they don't get that much mileage out of their range (that said, 60' is probably the most you'll ever have to fight at in a dungeon anyways).

The real archers tend to be Clerics; use all the traditional Cleric combat buffs (especially the Divine Favor > Divine Power > Righteous Might-line in Core - or obviously Polymorph if allowed - and even better outside) to get some size- and hit- and damage-bonuses to really bring your bow to rights. Get an Str-adjusting bow and you can rain death very effectively at long range. Zen Archery and you'll be mostly SAD; your damage comes from your magic anyways.


There're other options too; martial archer can use 3.0 PrCs to shine. Specifically Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild], 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate (not the horrible Complete Warrior-version) [Sword & Fist] & Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] are great Archery-PrCs that really add to Archer's abilities (Peerless Archer 3 gets Power Shot, the ability every Archer has always wanted; you can also get it from one bow). Other than that, a martial Archer needs to stack a crapton of different sitiuational power-ups from a variety of core classes and PrCs along with any weapon focus-type feats he can find and just go for as big numbers as possible. Trying to get lots of money and getting a heavily enchanted bow with a bunch of arrows is not amiss either. Basically just try to get as many damage sources as you can to make up for the fact that you lack Power Attack.

Then ToB, even though not designed for Archery, makes for great high level Archery-novas. Warblade is the best for this as their Int-synergies are valuable and Warblade-levels qualify you towards Weapon Focus-line (Ranged Weapon Mastery is actually a worthwhile feat for Archers) and have all the schools an Archer wants; Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind and White Raven. There's also homebrew "Falling Star"-school which really adds to archery efficiency; makes ToB for ranged characters too. But without Homebrew, you're basically looking at defensive boosts, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still.

Unfortunately all of those are relatively high level so you'll be a mere Fighter Archer with extra skillpoints and Int synergies until level 9-11 when you can learn Dancing Mongoose (11 if you take a 4-level dip in classes like Ranger and Fighter for skills, proficiencies and feats, 10 if you take 2 levels off and 9 if you go straight Warblade; will be slightly feat-starved though). Time Stands Still won't be available before level 17 the earliest (usually 18-19), but it truly does increase your combat efficiency by a ton.

Personal favourite ToB Archer is (Wood/Snow/Lesser Drow) Elf Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10, not particularly in that order (Fighter-level needs to be taken on level 9 to pick up Ranged Weapon Mastery then).

jcsw
2009-02-22, 05:45 AM
Yeah, I figured AA were kind of underpowered. When I looked at it, I just thought to myself "Why wouldn't I just be a Cleric with a +1 Shock Fiery Corrosive Bow that buffed it with holy?" That would deal far more damage, and he would still be able to Heal and such.

That being said, are there ANY Archer builds that can actually keep up with a melee class? It seems like a Fighter with a Two-hander and Power Attack (without Shock Trooper) would deal far more damage by just altering his Power Attack so his primary and haste swing would hit for loads of damage. Adding in Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce would just make things pointless to be an Archer. "You may be able to hit me 1 round before I get to you, but I will kill you in the round that I do get to hit you!"

Elf
Fighter 2/Crusader 3/Ur Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3/Eternal Blade 10
Equipment: Splitting Bow
Buffs: DMM Persistant Divine Power
Feats: Other than the prereqs, Rapid Shot, giving you 6 attacks with a splitting bow on a full round attack, or 12 arrows.
Somehow gain the bonus haste attack, through speed enchantment or whatever, to gain another 2.
Start:
Full Round] Time Stands Still: 28 Arrows
Swift] Regain Time Stands Still
Immediate] Island in Time to act again on next init count
Full Round] Time Stands Still: 28 Arrows

Hopefully by that time you'll have established some method of gaining more damage with a bow.

It can't quite hit 3000 damage, but at least you can change targets between shots.

If you somehow manage it: Try to persist a polymorph into an arrow demon (a bit hard though, you don't even have polymorph on your list). If you want to go nova you can also mix in a belt of battle.

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 06:28 AM
Pretty good, but you can do better (do note that this means losing Divine Power would lose most of your class features too, including high level maneuvers, as you'd suddenly not qualify for the first level of Eternal Blade; not a fan of that). Raging Mongoose for 2 extra attacks per attack.

Better yet, Belt of Battle buys you an extra full-round action once per day (get a few. Martial Script could arguably enable a third Time Stands Still. Either way, let's add few to the basic attacks:
-Replace a Fighter-level with Barbarian-level, pick up Whirling Frenzy.
-Use the Targetteer ACF for Fighter, acquire Arrow Swarm
-Persist Swift Haste.

This gets us to 9 (4 + 1 from Rapid Shot + 2 from Arrow Swarm + 1 from Whirling Frenzy + 1 from Haste) base attacks, done 6 times (three Time Stands Still) for a total of 54 attacks. Splitting makes that 108 attacks per turn. Thanks to Woodland Archer (+4 to consecutive shots per miss), you can easily do relevant damage to targets with AC upwards to 200 and again, Swift Action allows ignoring DR (that costs you the Belt of Battle's 18 attacks/36 attack rolls though). You could, in fact, kill a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) in one turn. All you need is to win the Initiative and spot it at the same time (as long as you engage within a 2000' distance, you should have the advantage; it has infinite range though so being spotted too far away would be bad).

I'm going to use the Warblade-version either with Boots of Speed or an auxillary source of Haste and either an Oil or a caster for Greater Magic Weapon.


Target values: AC 70, HP 1048.

Basic values:
Str 34 = 20 Race&Base+6 Item+4 Inherent+4 Whirling Frenzy
Dex 36 = 20 Race&Base+6 Item+5 Levels+5 Inherent

This is assuming a high buy as two 20s costs you 32 points and you'll want reasonable Int and Con too. That said, with little hurt to efficiency, Con and Int could be pumped by 6 while maintaining 32pb.

Initiative: 13 Dex + 4 Improved Initiative (Warblade bonus feat) + 2 Belt of Battle + 7 Warning/Eager Dagger = +26 vs. its +10; relatively good chances.


Attack: 20 BAB + 13 Dex + 5 weapon (Greater Magic Weapon) + 3 Knowledge Devotion (done through Blade Guide's Eternal Knowledge; assuming something like +5 in Int, this should be the norm) + 3 Weapon Focus&Mastery + 1 Haste - 9 Arrow Swarm & Rapid Shot & Whirling Frenzy = +33

Increment: 170' (assuming no Distance - just a Dragonborn Greatbow with Ranged Weapon Mastery), so engagement could be started at the 1700' or with Swiftwing Arrows or Distance enhancement at about 3000'; that said, it's worth noting that the increment penalties aren't factored into the calculations; maximum distance would mean 10 more misses.

Damage/Arrow: 2d8 (Large Greatbow [Targetteer gets free EWP, Strongarm Bracers for Large]) + 12 Str + 5 Weapon + 3 Knowledge Devotion + 4 Specialization & Mastery = 2d8+24


Attack sequence: My turn, use Island in Time as a Swift Action, use Island in Time-turn's Swift Action for Guided Strike, initiate Time Stands Still.

36 attacks, 10 first of which (and few iteratives, let's say 13 total which puts our attack bonus at +82 so last iterative is fired at +67, should reasonably hit 70). One statistical natural 1 means that 22 attacks connect, each for 33 damage, or 726 total (assuming the weapon isn't Holy or anything). Now, Woodland Archer lasts the entire round so we can continue on our normal turn: Eternal Training, learn Time Stands Still, Time Stands Still. 36 more attacks, almost all hit (statistically two miss) for a total of 1122 more damage. Now, if our weapon is good (say, lowly "Bless Weapon"), the thing is dead. Otherwise it's merely unconscious a few hundred points in negatives.

The weapon needs to be Splitting for this to work; without a Splitting, life would be much harder and you'd need at least Holy for sufficient damage. Also, the bow should be Force out of principle making it a +8 weapon.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-22, 11:00 AM
One feat make Arcane Archers absolutely: Smiting Spell from PHBII. Everything the Arcane Archer needs, only prepared. Elf Wizard with Smiting Spell = Better than the Arcane Archer.
Sorta. A couple of notes about Smiting Spell vs. Imbue Arrow:

1) Imbue Arrow will take a standard action to both cast and fire; Smiting Spell takes one action to cast, another to fire. With Smiting Spell, unless you also Quicken the spell, you're not getting it out on the same turn you cast - that's quite the opportunity cost in the middle of battle.
2) Imbue Arrow takes only area spells, and lets you target the ground's AC (5. Smiting Spell only takes Touch spells - and leaves you needing to hit the target's full AC.

Now, granted, as Arcane Archer does not advance spellcasting, it's either a two-level dip, or it's a "secondary" class in Gestalt. But other than the opportunity cost to get it, Imbue Arrow is usually much better.

Paul H
2009-02-22, 11:50 AM
Hi

Not sure what books all those classes on the previous posts came from, but I prefer to keep it simple. Duskblade 7/Kensai 10

The Kensai wil allow you to have +10 wpn for the cost of a few XP, and Duskblasde has a few useful spells. So...

Oversized Lt Crossbow +4/Holy/Quick Loading/Collision/Heavenly Burst, of Prismatic Burst. With Gtr Crystal of Acid Assault.

With Rapid Shot that's 4 attacks/rnd, with a Crossbow! Imp Crit means you crit on 17+, generating the Prismatic Spray effect. (Works even against those that can't be critted).

Your attacks (assuming Dex 20):

Attack: +23/18/13/8 Crit 17-20 (Double dam)
Dam 2D6+9+D6 Acid. (More vs Evil) Target AC reduced by 1 for 1/rnd
On Crit extra 3D6 vs Evil, plus Prismatic Spray effect. DC20

Note; Strongarm Bracers negate the penalty for oversized wpn.

Cheers
Paul H
PS Don't forget to ask Cleric for Brilliant Wpn spell, so your attacks are against Touch AC of living creatures!