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magic9mushroom
2009-02-23, 05:42 AM
At level 20, what is the maximum caster level achievable using all official sourcebooks and Dragon magazine? No Pun-Pun or similar, please. Give caster level without items as well as with, please. My best without items is 53, with items around 253.

Swooper
2009-02-23, 06:22 AM
Arbitrarily high, I think. There's a cleric spell (whose name I've forgotten) that raises your CL by half your current CL. It doesn't stack with itself, but you can cast it again and again, gaining half as many caster levels as the last time (20->30->35->37->...).

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-23, 06:41 AM
Greater Consumptive Field.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-23, 06:45 AM
Arbitrarily high, I think. There's a cleric spell (whose name I've forgotten) that raises your CL by half your current CL. It doesn't stack with itself, but you can cast it again and again, gaining half as many caster levels as the last time (20->30->35->37->...).

That doesn't give infinite. If you take a look at what happens it'll level out at twice your current CL.

Greater Consumptive Field: Did you miss "to a maximum of 1/2 your original caster level"?

Nohwl
2009-02-23, 09:42 AM
how are you getting 53 and 253?

jcsw
2009-02-23, 10:22 AM
It's not very practical, but:

Kobold, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Loredrake, etc
Sorcerer 3
Wizard 1
Wu Jen 1
Warmage 1
Bard 1
Beguiler 1
Trapsmith 1
Sublime Chord 9
Nar Demonbinder 1
Ur Priest 1

Take Practiced Spellcaster on your Sorc Levels, boosting both Sorc and Sublime Chord levels by 4.

Sublime Chord has a caster level of 9+10(Sorc)
Nar Demonbinder has a caster level of 1+10(Sorc)
All others have their levels plus 9(Sublime Chord)

Caster Level for Ur Priest is (19+10+10+10+10+10+10+19+11)/2+1=Caster Level 55 Before any other feats, etc. Go consumptive field with a scroll why don't you.

Douglas
2009-02-23, 10:30 AM
I can't check my books at the moment but I'm pretty sure Sublime Chord only does its combined caster level thing with one class of your choice, not all of them at once.

I am quite certain, however, that Ur-Priest works with class levels, not caster levels, in other spellcasting classes, so that doesn't work.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-23, 12:04 PM
Original caster level =/= unmodified caster level. GCF loop works because it looks at your 'original' caster level as the caster level you possessed before casting the current iteration of GCF.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-23, 12:12 PM
I can't check my books at the moment but I'm pretty sure Sublime Chord only does its combined caster level thing with one class of your choice, not all of them at once.

I am quite certain, however, that Ur-Priest works with class levels, not caster levels, in other spellcasting classes, so that doesn't work.



A sublime chordís caster
level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she
gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined
by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another
arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane
spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must
choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the
purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.

IOW, all of them get added to, but Sublime Chord spells only add one of your others.


To
determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís
ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting
classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric
donít count.)

Now, that sounds like it's only "real levels", however, most prestige classes that advance spellcasting say that they "determine caster level accordingly". Which means that Ur-Priest CL gets added to.

However, that does mean that Sublime Chord's CL increase (and any other CL increase) doesn't work for Ur-Priest purposes. Hadn't noticed that.

Back to the drawing board then.

We have to choose between Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord to haxify. I'll post the best I can come up with for each (barring horrible abuse e.g. pyramiding theurgic prestige classes):

Sublime Chord:

Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9.

Since there isn't a prestige class that can advance Bard/Sublime Chord, this'll have to do.

CL for wizard and Sublime Chord spells is 28.

Ur-Priest:

Wizard 4/Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Hierophant 5

Ur-Priest only counts spellcasting classes, so Eldritch Disciple won't work. This gives CL for Ur-Priest spells of 26

There is another possibility though. Theurgic Specialist adds up all caster levels in the specialised school. Caster levels, not actual levels. So...

Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Beguiler 1/Warmage 1/Ur-Priest 3/Duskblade 1/Wu Jen 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9.

CL for Sublime Chord: 17
CL for Wizard: 20 (Practised Spellcaster)
CL for Sorcerer: 11
CL for Savage Bard: 11
CL for Beguiler: 11
CL for Warmage: 11
CL for Ur-Priest: 14
CL for Duskblade: 11
CL for Wu Jen: 11

CL for specialised school: 117.

There is a metamagic feat (Song of the Dead) that turns any spell into a Necromancy spell. I need to check its details though. Ouch, in any case.

EDIT: Oh crap. Forgot that UM doesn't do full caster progression.

So, Mystic Theurge for the Theurgic Specialist abuse gives instead...

Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Beguiler 1/Warmage 1/Ur-Priest 3/Duskblade 1/Wu Jen 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)

CL for Wizard: 11
CL for Sorcerer: 11
CL for Savage Bard: 11
CL for Beguiler: 11
CL for Warmage: 11
CL for Ur-Priest: 20
CL for Duskblade: 11
CL for Wu Jen: 11
CL for Sublime Chord: 11

CL in specialised school: 108.

But this way you get 9th level divine spells too. I smell Blasphemy.

monty
2009-02-23, 01:51 PM
Original caster level =/= unmodified caster level. GCF loop works because it looks at your 'original' caster level as the caster level you possessed before casting the current iteration of GCF.

Right, but the bonuses don't stack with each other.

Let's assume your current caster level is 100, for the sake of round numbers. GCF gives you another 50, for 150. GCF again gives you 75, which replaces the original 50 for 175. GCF again for 87.5, then 93.75, and so on. It maxes out at a bonus of 100 in this case, or your original caster level in any case.

Douglas
2009-02-23, 02:17 PM
There is another possibility though. Theurgic Specialist adds up all caster levels in the specialised school. Caster levels, not actual levels. So...
That... is a disgustingly broken combination. However, my source says that Theurgic Specialist requires 3 Wizard levels.

Also, it's Dragon Magazine material, which is rather hard to get past a lot of DMs.

Lamech
2009-02-23, 04:44 PM
A greater consumptitive field loop doesn't work because it doesn't stack with it self, and a 50% increase isn't enough to head off to infinity. Why wouldn't GCF and its base comsumptitive stack with each other? I know identical spells don't stack but these are not identical...
What am I missing?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-02-23, 07:08 PM
A usual mistake leading to a lot of bogus optimisation;


A sublime chordís caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class.


To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric
donít count.)

People, caster level =/= class level. Level in a class refers to class level, NOT caster level.


Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9.
This gives CL for sublime chord of 21 (9 wizard lvl +1 sublime chord lvl + 7 ultimate magus bonus +4 arcane power.)
This gives CL for wizard of exactly the same, according to the sublime chord wording.
This gives CL for bard of 8 (1 bard lvl +3 Ultimate Magus +4 arcane power) because you're forced to give your UM bonus to your lowest-CL arcane spellcasting class which is neither wizard nor sublime chord-it is bard.


Mystic Theurge 9(Ur-Priest 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 9)
Sorry, can't. Sublime Chord NEVER gives 2nd level arcane spells so it can't help you qualify for Mystic Theurge. You usually need 3-4 levels in a primary spellcasting class to qualify.


Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Beguiler 1/Warmage 1/Ur-Priest 3/Duskblade 1/Wu Jen 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9.
Illegal build. Doesn't give access to 2nd level arcane casting prepared from a spellbook. Technically, you can qualify with precocious apprentice though.
Ur-Priest CL is Ur-Priest level plus 1/2 level in all spellcasting classes so 3 + 17/2 for a total of 11. Meh.



Conclusion; if you want high caster level, go Greater Consumptive Field in a place full of chickens. Be careful not to get disjoined though.

Arbitrarity
2009-02-23, 08:25 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Bui ld)
Add in Greater Consumptive field. Note that if you disallow Ioun stone stacking (reasonable), that's still CL 88. With just 1 ioun stone, that's 96 maximum.

Mind you, I can't remember just how legal that build is. But it's history.

Oh, wait. Try this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=615672)

magic9mushroom
2009-02-23, 10:45 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Bui ld)
Add in Greater Consumptive field. Note that if you disallow Ioun stone stacking (reasonable), that's still CL 88. With just 1 ioun stone, that's 96 maximum.

Mind you, I can't remember just how legal that build is. But it's history.

Oh, wait. Try this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=615672)

It doesn't work because it assumes that UP goes off caster levels instead of actual levels.

Now, @Belial:

The first one (Wizard/Sublime Chord UM): Remember that UM says that you determine caster level as if you had gained a level in each. So the Sublime Chord bonus does work, because you're determining CL as if you're a Wizard 16/Bard 4/Sublime Chord 8. Which gives after adding in the bonus CL 27 or 28.

The second one (no second level arcane spells for MT or 3rd level for SC): Ur-Priest 3 gives 3rd level Divine spells. Alternative Source Spell allows me to cast 3rd level arcane spells out of those slots. Which allows both Sublime Chord and Mystic Theurge. Again, another disgustingly abusable feat.

On the last one: That's why I dropped it in favor of Mystic Theurge.

@Douglas: CRAP. You're right. That's what typing that out at 4 am does to you.

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Warmage 1/Beguiler 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9.

CL for Wizard spells: 13
CL for Sorcerer spells: 11
CL for Bard spells: 11
CL for Warmage spells: 11
CL for Beguiler spells: 11
CL for Sublime Chord spells: 13
CL for Ur-Priest spells: 20

CL in specialised school: 90. Slightly lower, but still retardedly high.

Each Orange Ioun Stone will add 7 to total caster level. So just pull out 20 of them (less than WBL allows) and you have CL 230 anyway. Word, eat your heart out.

Glimbur
2009-02-23, 10:54 PM
I thought you couldn't stack Orange Ioun Stones? Something about them all being the same source?

magic9mushroom
2009-02-23, 11:42 PM
It's arguable. They don't take up item slots, and they give an unnamed bonus, but they are the same sort of item. I don't think they'd cost 30k if they didn't stack, though.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-02-24, 03:48 AM
@magic9mushroom;


UM doesn't say "you determine caster level as if you'd gained a level in x" It says; "you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level as if you'd gained a level in x and you do not gain any other benefit a character with class x would have gained".


So, the only thing you're getting from UM in a bard/wizard/Sublime Chord/UM combo is the direct CL increase. This increase doesn't count when determining class levels to get Sublime Chord caster level because that would be a benefit other than the specific increase in CL-something the wording of UM specifically forbids.





Ur-Priest 3 gives 3rd level Divine spells. Alternative Source Spell allows me to cast 3rd level arcane spells out of those slots. Which allows both Sublime Chord and Mystic Theurge. Again, another disgustingly abusable feat.
Not quite. Alternate Source Spell allows you to cast your arcane spells from your divine spell slots. If you don't have any arcane spells that are 3rd level to begin with, the feat still doesn't give you an ability to cast any. So you still don't qualify.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-24, 04:13 AM
@magic9mushroom;


UM doesn't say "you determine caster level as if you'd gained a level in x" It says; "you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level as if you'd gained a level in x and you do not gain any other benefit a character with class x would have gained".


So, the only thing you're getting from UM in a bard/wizard/Sublime Chord/UM combo is the direct CL increase. This increase doesn't count when determining class levels to get Sublime Chord caster level because that would be a benefit other than the specific increase in CL-something the wording of UM specifically forbids.


At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you
gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and
spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level
in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding
the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other
benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

You gain an increase in caster level as if you were a level higher in that class. A level higher in Sublime Chord would give you +1 CL to Wizard and vice versa. QED.


Not quite. Alternate Source Spell allows you to cast your arcane spells from your divine spell slots. If you don't have any arcane spells that are 3rd level to begin with, the feat still doesn't give you an ability to cast any. So you still don't qualify.

No. Alternative Source Spell says this.



You can prepare any of your spells as either divine or arcane.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast both divine and arcane spells.
Benefit: You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells. An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level was 1 lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard.

IOW, I can prepare any of my 3rd-level Ur-Priest divine spells (e.g. Inflict Serious Wounds) as arcane spells instead, and they still use up an Ur-Priest 3rd-level slot. Hence I can cast 3rd-level arcane spells and qualify for Sublime Chord.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-24, 05:31 AM
Something else: How would Sublime Chord, Yathrinshee, and Theurgic Specialist interact?

Sublime Chord says:


A sublime chordís caster
level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she
gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined
by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another
arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane
spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must
choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the
purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.

Yathrinshee says:


Necromancer (Ex): The yathrinshee has unsurpassed power over death. When she casts spells from the school of necromancy, all her spellcaster levels stack for the purpose of determining her effective caster level. She does not gain higher-level spells any faster than normal or gain any additional spells per day, but the spells she casts are much more effective.

(The example it gives shows that theurgic prestige classes do count twice.)

Theurgic Specialist I've already quoted.

Because if that works properly (ie everything is reset to the sum of everything, then everything is set to the sum of everything again) then we get the following.

Necromancer 3/Sorcerer 1/Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Yathrinshee 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord) 9.

Pre-stacking:

CL for wizard spells: 13
CL for sorcerer spells: 11
CL for Bard spells: 11
CL for Dread Necromancer spells: 11
CL for Sublime Chord spells: 13
CL for Ur-Priest spells: 20

Post-Yathrinshee ability: CL for everything in necromancy = 79

Post-Theurgic Specialist: CL for everything in necromancy = 474.

Um, LOL(th)?