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View Full Version : Maxing Miss-chance [3.5]



SilentNight
2009-02-23, 09:36 PM
So playground, I turn again to your vast knowledge of gaming to inquire how to maximize miss chance. Basically I just want to see how close to invulnerable you can get. All sources are open as long as you reference and for level, let's say mid-high tho feel free to use whatever you want. This isn't for a particular game, I was just replaying Morrowind and wondering if you could duplicate the Saint's cloth break.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-23, 09:44 PM
Blind the enemy. Greater Mirror Images can give you like 6 images. Incorporeal for another 50%.
I'm sure it can go much, much higher.

Hat-Trick
2009-02-23, 09:59 PM
Blur, Displacement, Concealment. Some don't stack, but you add one in and there you go, more miss chance.

monty
2009-02-23, 10:06 PM
Superior Invisibility. Nothing without True Seeing will ever know you're there until it's too late.

Siosilvar
2009-02-23, 10:09 PM
Incorporeal makes you completely immune to non-magical material attacks, and 50% against magical non-force attacks.

Zergrusheddie recommended blinding the enemy, which is a good plan, but requires the enemy fails a save.

Core spells to get miss chances off the top of my head:
Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) - Maximum 8 images for an (effective) 88.9% miss chance. Works against all targeted effects.

Blur - 20% concealment
Displacement - 50%
Blink - 50%, applies to targeted spells as well
(Improved) Invisibility - 50% concealment
Any fog spell - 20-50% based on range
Darkness - 20%?
Wind Wall - 30% against ranged weapons
Entropic Shield - 20% against ranged weapons

Darrin
2009-02-23, 10:53 PM
Zergrusheddie recommended blinding the enemy, which is a good plan, but requires the enemy fails a save.


Not if you use Blinding Spittle. -4 penalty, but with a ranged touch attack, still murderously easy.

Nohwl
2009-02-24, 07:49 AM
are we allowed to include ac in this?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 08:08 AM
Superior Invisibility. Nothing without True Seeing will ever know you're there until it's too late.

I up you a 3rd level Mystery Dancing Shadows. Same as Superior Invisibility but obtained by level 5.

SilentNight
2009-02-24, 09:36 AM
Thanks guys, I'll keep the mirror image in mind.

@Nohwl: The idea was to reach a point where AC is moot but it seems that doesn't quite work.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 10:04 AM
Thanks guys, I'll keep the mirror image in mind.

@Nohwl: The idea was to reach a point where AC is moot but it seems that doesn't quite work.

People can always roll Nat 20's. You are bound to be hit by someone rolling your AC; no matter how high you make it.

A High AC is there for 3 reasons:
1) Lower chance of: Power Attack/other lower hit bonus, add special benefit bonuses attacks
2) Keep Mooks off
3) To feel safe. Most attacks don't hit you= good. Donít want to be worn down.

That is it.

Miss Chances help because doesn't matter how good they roll: Nat 20, too bad you missed.

Mirror Image helps, but a full attack can destroy them easily.

Person_Man
2009-02-24, 11:26 AM
Greater Cloak of Displacement.

Also, you should avoid including a miss chance as part of every combat. DMs will tolerate high hit points and AC without screwing with you. But a constant 50% miss chance will just make them send twice as many attacks against you, and/or target you with attacks that don't require an attack roll. Keep your powder dry for when you really need it.

monty
2009-02-24, 01:09 PM
I up you a 3rd level Mystery Dancing Shadows. Same as Superior Invisibility but obtained by level 5.

Dancing Shadows: immune to see invisibility and piercing sight.
Superior Invisibility: undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight; immune to see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility purge, and dust of appearance. Also longer duration/level, and no spell resistance (so you can cast it on that stupid monk if you need to).

Hardly the same thing.

Fixer
2009-02-24, 01:35 PM
A character I am playing, and hope to get her up in levels, is using concealment instead of AC to prevent her from getting hit.

I am utilizing the Umbral Disciple's Embrace of Shadow (Su) ability (10% miss chance per point of essentia invested, 20% grants hide in plain sight) as her primary concealment ability and will toss on other concealment effects as they become available (and are better than her Embrace of Shadow, as concealment bonuses do not stack).

This means that only area-of-effect spells have a chance to bypass her concealment, and her Reflex save and Evasion will mean those have even less chance of dealing damage.

So, bottom line, rogues with evasion and concealment are pretty well set up defensively by avoiding getting damaged in the first place.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-24, 02:00 PM
Don't forget to couple miss chances with the Pearl of Black Doubt stance (Diamond Mind, 3rd). +2 AC every time someone misses you.

Heliomance
2009-02-24, 05:21 PM
Shadow Phase is a Sorc/Wiz 3 spell from the SpC, which gives 50% against non-magical attacks, 20% against magical. Works by making you partially incorporeal - as far as I can see, it stacks with everything else.

Ire
2009-02-24, 05:31 PM
Having insane hide/move silently works pretty well.

Most of these things don't work very well once NPCs have true seeing and blindsense. I play an Arcane Trickster and at epic levels I take on the worm that walks template, insane hide/move silently coupled with insane spot/listen blindsense and the ability to attack vs touch ac.

Advocate
2009-02-24, 06:45 PM
Displacement (spell, not item, the item takes a Standard to turn on) + (Greater) Mirror Image + Greater Blink. Core + Core or PHB 2 + SC.

You have a 1:36 chance to be hit before counting AC, and also take half damage from some other stuff.

Greater Blink doesn't mess with your attacks. Greater Mirror Image is an Immediate action, and you gain an image every round, max 8. You could use normal versions if you wanted though.

Better, invis + stealth + flight. Good luck finding you to even try to attack.

ericgrau
2009-02-24, 06:48 PM
People can always roll Nat 20's. You are bound to be hit by someone rolling your AC; no matter how high you make it.

A High AC is there for 3 reasons:
1) Lower chance of: Power Attack/other lower hit bonus, add special benefit bonuses attacks
2) Keep Mooks off
3) To feel safe. Most attacks don't hit you= good. Donít want to be worn down.

That is it.

Miss Chances help because doesn't matter how good they roll: Nat 20, too bad you missed.

Mirror Image helps, but a full attack can destroy them easily.
I thought the attacker rolled the miss chance (not that it matters), and I thought that the chance of breaking miss chance is much higher than 1 in 20, no?


Displacement (spell, not item, the item takes a Standard to turn on) + (Greater) Mirror Image + Greater Blink. Core + Core or PHB 2 + SC.

You have a 1:36 chance to be hit before counting AC, and also take half damage from some other stuff.

Greater Blink doesn't mess with your attacks. Greater Mirror Image is an Immediate action, and you gain an image every round, max 8. You could use normal versions if you wanted though.

Better, invis + stealth + flight. Good luck finding you to even try to attack.
Miss chances don't stack, so I don't think displacement would add anything to greater blink. And it'd take 8 rounds to get the full effect, not to mention the vulnerability to rapid elimination, etc. that mirror image has, which I think someone else described.

monty
2009-02-24, 06:51 PM
Also, Darkstalker is pretty much impenetrable, and is available as soon as you have a means to hide consistently (HiPS or something similar) and a sufficiently cheesy hide bonus.

Siosilvar
2009-02-24, 08:02 PM
I thought the attacker rolled the miss chance (not that it matters), and I thought that the chance of breaking miss chance is much higher than 1 in 20, no? That depends on how many miss chances you have. If you can get two 50% miss chances, that's about a 75% chance of missing you, regardless of attack roll.


Miss chances don't stack, so I don't think displacement would add anything to greater blink. And it'd take 8 rounds to get the full effect, not to mention the vulnerability to rapid elimination, etc. that mirror image has, which I think someone else described.I don't have PHB2, but I believe the images start at full and come back at 1 per round.

Keld Denar
2009-02-24, 08:37 PM
Yea, Greater Mirror Image starts with the same number of images as regular Mirror Image, but they regen as well. Its also an Immedate Action spell, which is great for those oopse moments.

Concealment never stacks.


Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a
successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of
the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss
chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. (To expedite play, make
both rolls at the same time). Multiple concealment conditions (such
as a defender in a dog and under the effect of a blur spell) do not
stack.

And I believe the most you can ever have is 50%. That said, the miss chance from being Incorporial is NOT concealment, but rather a damage immunity, so you would benefit from that as well as concealment from a spell. Mirror Image is not concealment, so you could have that as well.

Blur, Displacement, Blinking, Invisibility and the like would not stack.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 08:51 PM
Yea, Greater Mirror Image starts with the same number of images as regular Mirror Image, but they regen as well. Its also an Immedate Action spell, which is great for those oopse moments.

Concealment never stacks.


And I believe the most you can ever have is 50%. That said, the miss chance from being Incorporial is NOT concealment, but rather a damage immunity, so you would benefit from that as well as concealment from a spell. Mirror Image is not concealment, so you could have that as well.

Blur, Displacement, Blinking, Invisibility and the like would not stack.


If using Psionics: the max is 55% (Hyperconscious has a 1st level power that gives 10% by itself or stacks by adding +5% to other miss chances).

holywhippet
2009-02-24, 08:53 PM
My knowledge of splatbooks is limited, but under core rules the monk is the best class for trying to evade touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. Simply because touch attacks ignore armour and shield bonuses - which monks don't use. However, the monk gets to keep their wisdom bonus and their AC bonuses by level.

Add to that the evasion skill, spell resistance and the best all round saving throw bonuses.

The catch is, the regular AC of a monk tends to suck because of the lack of armour and shields. Min/maxing and items that boost wis and dex can help compensate of course.

monty
2009-02-24, 10:17 PM
The catch is, the regular AC of a monk tends to suck because of the lack of armour and shields. Min/maxing and items that boost wis and dex can help compensate of course.

The other catch is that being able to survive doesn't mean much if you can't actually do anything.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-24, 11:35 PM
The other catch is that being able to survive doesn't mean much if you can't actually do anything.And the other other catch is that you can get that defense through either a dip or, even worse, an item. Or get a better version by being a Swordsage. What does this class do again?

Advocate
2009-02-25, 08:55 AM
Miss chances don't stack, so I don't think displacement would add anything to greater blink. And it'd take 8 rounds to get the full effect, not to mention the vulnerability to rapid elimination, etc. that mirror image has, which I think someone else described.

Correct, miss chances do not stack. However, there is only one miss chance. The rest is 'you're not there half the time to be hit' and 'one of the eight doubles gets hit instead of you'. It takes nowhere near 8 rounds to get the full effect. You get 1d4 + (CL / 3) images, max 8. At the minimum CL to do this, you get 3-6 images, meaning it takes a maximum of 5 rounds. At a CL of 21, you always get 8 images right off.

GMI + Displacement + Greater Blink all work fine together. You just can't say... add in Invisibility or something.

Advocate
2009-02-25, 09:00 AM
And the other other catch is that you can get that defense through either a dip or, even worse, an item. Or get a better version by being a Swordsage. What does this class do again?

This is true. Also, Monks have terrible defenses across the board. Their touch AC is low, unless they turn themselves into a turtle in which case they are not being attacked. Their saves are average at best, and their SR, even if it actually blocks a spell from an enemy occasionally (as in, 5% chance or so) is still an active liability, as it also blocks heals, combat buffing, etc. Out of combat, using a Standard to turn it off is not a big deal. In combat, taking the whole round off, while someone else takes the round off to try to heal or buff you? Forget it.

Monks having good defenses is a fallacy, stepping from naivety in trusting that having a 'good' base save progression actually results in good saves overall, when other factors make their saves at best average.

And remember, average saves = 50% chance to not die every round, or lower. The average is bad kids.