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Frosty
2009-02-25, 08:18 PM
I may have a character that'll be pumping dex up as much as possible since he'll be using weapon finesse and perfect two-weapon fighting (so atleast 25 dex probably more). Now, how can I increase the maximum Dex bonus of armor he can wear? Even Padded Armor only goes up to +8. I'm sure there is something in Races of the Wild that can help me but I lent that book to someone else right now.

Shades of Gray
2009-02-25, 08:21 PM
I remember there was an enchancement somewhere that eliminates X points of max dex cap... I dunno how much it was or where it was from. Sorry I can't be more help.

But the real answer is : If you are going to go for padded anyway, just get one of those robes that gives +4 AC, there are quite a few in the MIC. You can also add a +1 or more enhancement to regular clothes... I think.

Mr. Pin
2009-02-25, 08:23 PM
Wow, if you seriously think you'll be getting past +8 Dex (I believe that'd be 28-29) then I wouldn't wear armor but rather spend my cash on amulets of protection or bracers of defense or cloaks of resistance or mage armor spells or other buffs to AC that don't involve armor. until you can afford these and before you have +8 dex, however, I'd invest in some good old padded armor and maybe a mithril chain shirt later on.

snoopy13a
2009-02-25, 08:25 PM
There's always this option:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html

monty
2009-02-25, 08:26 PM
There's always this option:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html

I'M INVISIBLE!!!

krossbow
2009-02-25, 08:35 PM
Nimble armor (+1 enhancement) increases maximum dexterity and lowers armor check penalty, similiar to mithril, but i don't think that alone will help you out enough (it only provides +1 to the maximum dexterity).



I'd go with bracers of armor myself. Hell, maybe take a level in monk if you have some wisdom; at the very least you'll get some nice bonuses to your saves from it.

Draz74
2009-02-25, 08:44 PM
Bracers of Armor and Monk's Belt are the standard answer, yeah. Or just use MIC rules to enchant clothing for the same prices as Bracers of Armor. Or just get the party Cleric to give you a Magic Vestment each day.

Or be a psionic character and use Inertial Armor. :smallbiggrin:

What you actually need to be worrying about here the most is access to useful armor properties like Fortification. Ask your DM if he allows properties in place of +'s on clothing or Bracers.

krossbow
2009-02-25, 08:51 PM
There's always this option:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html




Enemies should have to make will save against your massive charisma or be stunned.

Glimbur
2009-02-25, 08:54 PM
There's Gnome Twistcloth in Races of Stone that has no Max Dex Bonus. It doesn't give much AC, and is pricey for mundane armor, and is exotic, but no ACP so non-proficiency doesn't matter and if you are proficient it gives its Armor bonus to Touch AC. Nice for high-dex types.

Frosty
2009-02-25, 09:02 PM
Bracers of Armor and Monk's Belt are the standard answer, yeah. Or just use MIC rules to enchant clothing for the same prices as Bracers of Armor. Or just get the party Cleric to give you a Magic Vestment each day.

Or be a psionic character and use Inertial Armor. :smallbiggrin:

What you actually need to be worrying about here the most is access to useful armor properties like Fortification. Ask your DM if he allows properties in place of +'s on clothing or Bracers.

Yeah I do want things such as Fortification and other goodies, and I also want high AC becuase I'll be at the front lines. Say, if I have a Mithral Chain Shirt and a +10 dex bonus, is my Touch AC limited to receiving only a +6 from my dex given the Mithral chain shirt's +6 max Dex bonus?

Person_Man
2009-02-25, 09:33 PM
Inertial Armor (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) is probably your best bet, but it requires that you be a psionic class.

There's also Clockwork Armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a), which not only has no Max Dex bonus, but adds +4 to your Str and Dex. A steal at only 27,250 gp.

Draz74
2009-02-25, 09:38 PM
is my Touch AC limited to receiving only a +6 from my dex given the Mithral chain shirt's +6 max Dex bonus?

By RAW, yes. :smallfrown: Possibly something to appeal to the DM about, though.

Oh yeah, I just thought of the option you really want: Shadow Silk (special material) armor from the Tome of Magic. Shadow Silk Padded Armor is +1 AC, Max Dex 10, ACP 0, for 1500 gp (masterwork cost included).

Telonius
2009-02-25, 10:40 PM
It depends on what your specific Dex is and much gold you're willing to spend.

At Dex 28:
+5 Shadow Silk gives you AC 15 and costs 26.5k
Bracers+6 gives you AC 15 and costs 36k
Bracers+7 gives you AC 16 and costs 49k

At Dex 30:
+5 Shadow Silk gives you AC 16 and costs 26.5k
Bracers+6 gives you AC 16 and costs 36k
Bracers+7 gives you AC 17 and costs 49k

At Dex 32:
+5 Shadow Silk gives you AC 16 and costs 26.5k
Bracers +5 gives you AC 16 and costs 25k
Bracers +6 gives you AC 17 and costs 36k

Shadow Silk is generally a more cost-effective choice up to Dex 30. It becomes an ever poorer choice as your Dex increases from 32 on, until you reach the Elan stage (Dex 42) and you get more AC by taking it off than having it on.

The only other thing to consider would be specific armor enchantments. If you really don't want to give up fortification (or energy resistance, or...), you'll have to keep the armor (or get a +1 Buckler of Fortification).

krossbow
2009-02-25, 10:54 PM
There's also [URL="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a"]Clockwork Armor (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm), which not only has no Max Dex bonus, but adds +4 to your Str and Dex. A steal at only 27,250 gp.





It sounds good until you consider all the drawbacks; you need to correctly calibrate the armor in order to use it, andcold based attacks can freeze its gears together. Furthermore, canny opponents can simply tear through the armor itself, leaving you bereft of its usage (Yes, PC's would never do this, but DM monsters have a much higher tendency to damage items).

Additionally, since all armor is claimed as property by Cyre, you can expect visits from angry representatives if your famous.

lsfreak
2009-02-25, 11:02 PM
It sounds good until you consider all the drawbacks;
...and you're immediately at a Medium load, most likely. Possibly heavy. Adding 50-60 pounds on top of what a Dex char already has for armor is likely to hurt them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-25, 11:13 PM
Bondleaf Wrap from Arms and Equipment Guide costs 1,000 doesn't limit Dex bonus to AC, and gives a +1 armor bonus, which can then further be enchanted.

Looks to be what you are looking for.

However, if you are going to stop at +7, you may consider +1 Nimbleness Mithral Chain Shirt.

krossbow
2009-02-25, 11:20 PM
Nightscale armor is probably your best bet. It has a +2 AC and a maximum dexterity of +10. So until you pass by 30 you should be set. However, i would still strongly urge bracers of armor.

Frosty
2009-02-25, 11:30 PM
Inertial Armor (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) is probably your best bet, but it requires that you be a psionic class.

There's also Clockwork Armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a), which not only has no Max Dex bonus, but adds +4 to your Str and Dex. A steal at only 27,250 gp.

Well yes, but I don't get Heavy Armor proficiency, so that won't do. also, I don't like the idea that I could be frozen or that my armor can get attacked directly.

EDIT: where is nightscale armor from?

Iku Rex
2009-02-26, 12:04 AM
EDIT: where is nightscale armor from?Underdark (FR).

Yukitsu
2009-02-26, 12:14 AM
I usually try for Dyrr's impervious vestments from complete arcana. +9 armour save on a robe, stylish looking, once per day circular blade barrier that you can move in and out of freely.

I believe it's enchantable with magic vestments, as it grants an armour bonus, and vestments would grant enhancement to armour.

Price tag is a problem. :smallwink:

krossbow
2009-02-26, 12:18 AM
This (http://www.roleplaynexus.com/armorlist.html) is a nice collection of various armors and materials. It lists Nightscale armor and the description of exactly what nightscale armor is.



Nightscale
Made from dark snakeskin steeped in mysterious alchemical mixtures, nightscale armor is much like leather armor, except that it is much more supple and form-fitting.

mohdri
2009-02-26, 12:33 AM
If you're looking at Arms and Equipment Guide, there's a sidebar on page 130 that talks about pricing for Bracers of Armor with an effective bonus past +8. You can't get any more bonus to AC but you can get special abilities up to +5(including Heavy Fortification which is a +5).

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-26, 06:09 AM
What do people like wizards and monks do in general for things that normally come as armor enhancements? e.g. fortification?

krossbow
2009-02-26, 06:19 AM
What do people like wizards and monks do in general for things that normally come as armor enhancements? e.g. fortification?


the monks die, the wizards rely on protection spells that are about 100 times better.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-26, 08:53 AM
Yeah I do want things such as Fortification and other goodies, and I also want high AC becuase I'll be at the front lines. The best way to accomplish this is to decouple fortification from armor. Get a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (from Draconomicon) for 35,000 gp. If you don't happen to be a dragon, pay an NPC caster to affix it to your body with a Limited Wish spell. As an added bonus you'll avoid all those useless arguments about whether brilliant energy weapons bypass fortification when they bypass armor. If your fortification has no association with armor, it must always work.

The standard answer of Bracers of Armor (once you can afford +8; before that, Magic Vestment for +5) and Monk's Belt, plus DEX and WIS boosters, is a good one.

Person_Man
2009-02-26, 09:14 AM
Other options:

Mithril Buckler: Has no armor check penalty. Thus you can wear it without penalty even if you are not proficient. Make it animated if you're worried about having both hands completely free.

Ghost Shroud: +4 deflection bonus to AC, and all of your attacks have the Ghost Touch property. 35,000 gp, Libris Mortis pg 76.

Millennial Chainmail: +3 chainmail, light armor, +8 max Dex bonus, Fast Healing 3. Requires True Believer feat of giving up a spell slot. 18,800 gp, Complete Divine pg 99.

Put those together with an amulet of natural armor, a lesser cloak of displacement, and maybe something that provides DR, and you should be fine.

Asgardian
2009-02-26, 10:27 AM
See if your DM will let you take this as a feat

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-26, 10:54 AM
What do people like wizards and monks do in general for things that normally come as armor enhancements? e.g. fortification?The Monks die. The Wizards wear +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirts.

Kaiyanwang
2009-02-26, 11:03 AM
I'd go for Bracers of Armor, enchanted like actual armour like Arms and Equipment guide suggest as optional rule.

Glyde
2009-02-26, 11:15 AM
I know the Vassal of Bahamut from BOED gets platinum armor. Its max dex is +4 I think, and the AC bonus is... 8 if I believe. I can't be too sure. Combined with some of the suggestions here, you might be able to get that max dex bonus pretty high.

Person_Man
2009-02-26, 11:53 AM
I know the Vassal of Bahamut from BOED gets platinum armor. Its max dex is +4 I think, and the AC bonus is... 8 if I believe. I can't be too sure. Combined with some of the suggestions here, you might be able to get that max dex bonus pretty high.

Yup. +8 AC, +4 Max Dex, -1 armor check penalty, light armor, and it can be enchanted. Of course, you have to kill a juvenile or older evil dragon, and dip one level into a PrC with 2 cruddy feat requirements. IMO, it's a lousy PrC.

Advocate
2009-02-26, 12:01 PM
What you actually need to be worrying about here the most is access to useful armor properties like Fortification. Ask your DM if he allows properties in place of +'s on clothing or Bracers.

This problem.


There's Gnome Twistcloth in Races of Stone that has no Max Dex Bonus. It doesn't give much AC, and is pricey for mundane armor, and is exotic, but no ACP so non-proficiency doesn't matter and if you are proficient it gives its Armor bonus to Touch AC. Nice for high-dex types.

Is solved by this armor. You use this armor to store special properties. You use Bracers of Armor for plain AC. Unfortunately this means no Monk's Belt... but you can use Swordsage for the Wis to AC, and that will still work.

Now, comparing Bracers to magic armor is intellectually deceptive. The reason for this is that Magic Vestment (enhancement to armor or shields) stacks with Bracers of Armor (armor bonus). And if it didn't, magic armor, magic shields, and magic weapons would literally be pointless as they do nothing at all.

You must compare Bracers + Magic vestment to magic armor, or Bracers to normal armor. When you do that, suddenly the Bracers become best overall by a much larger margin.

As for Wizards... Mithril Twilight works. Gnome Twistcloth works, just to store special properties. Bracers work. Mithril bucklers work. They lose nothing, and gain quite a bit as say... they can use Elemental Body in place of Heavy Fortification.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-26, 06:50 PM
Now, comparing Bracers to magic armor is intellectually deceptive. The reason for this is that Magic Vestment (enhancement to armor or shields) stacks with Bracers of Armor (armor bonus). Not according to the FAQ:
I have a bard in my game who has a bit of money to spend. She buys a set of bracers of armor +3 and a suit of +3 leather armor. If the bard wears both at the same time, the armor bonus from the bracers (+3) overrides the armor bonus from the leather armor (+1). Our question is, does the +3 enhancement bonus from the armor still get applied for a total of +6, is it subsumed by the magic of the bracers, or is it just ignored completely? Since the enhancement bonus and armor bonus are different types of bonuses, the bard thinks her total Armor Class bonus should be +6.
The magic leather armorís +3 enhancement bonus applies to make the armorís armor bonus bigger (+4 in this case). The example character uses only the larger armor bonus (+4) when wearing both the armor and the bracers. An enhancement bonus to armor only stacks with an armor bonus if they're on the same object. The bonus from Magic Vestment is independent of Bracers of Armor, so they don't stack; you just get the better armor bonus.
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. Bracers of Armor are neither a suit of armor nor regular clothing, so the enhancement isn't on the same item as the base armor bonus.

Advocate
2009-02-26, 06:53 PM
Incorrect. Bracers of Armor are armor. The FAQ has near 0 credibility, as just like with the Sage you can have say... 3 people ask the same question, phrased 3 different ways and get 3 different answers. Mostly it's just random DM calls... no more credible than any other random DM call, less credible than your DMs call, and far less credible than actual rules.

You apply the Magic Vestment to the Bracers of Armor. It now gives (armor) + (enhancement to armor) to AC. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. And that's the bottom line, because Advocate said so! :smalltongue:

Iku Rex
2009-02-26, 07:27 PM
Bracers of Armor are armor.No they're not. They're wondrous items, arm slot.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-26, 07:33 PM
Bracers of Armor are armor. Iku Rex has this right. Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus -- but are not armor, and do not occupy the armor slot. Just paying attention to the FAQ question should make that clear, as it involves wearing both Bracers and a suit of armor.

Frosty
2009-02-26, 08:47 PM
For a bit more information, my character is going to be a semi-optimized Human Pathfinder Bard 4/Warblade 16 (more Warblade levels if we go into epic) who will use Dragonfire Inspiration (but not Words of Creation) and Two-weapon fighting to get a ridiculous amount of d6s in elemental damage. Eventually going for Perfect TWF, so I'll have 25 or more Dex. Dunno on the point buy yet. Might actually be getting a feat every odd level instead of every 3 levels like normal, but possible only one or even no Flaws.

I'll probably focus a lot of Boosts and Counters that'll help me survive and get me into position to do a full-attack. And also that one Diamond Mind Maneuver that lets you Pounce.

I'm looking for a good armor for this kind of front-liner. Pathfinder bards can use light armor and up to heavy shields without ASF chance, so maybe an animated shield is the way to go on, but I don't wanna waste an Arm slot on bracers of armor. Shadowsilk does seem pretty cool and I'll probably do that. We don't have access to the gnome cloth thing I don't think. Where is it from again?

mikethepoor
2009-02-26, 08:48 PM
I'm surprised no one's mentioned celestial armor yet. +3 chainmail to start, +8 max DEX, counts as light armor and fly 1/day, for 22,400 gold. Sounds good to me.

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-26, 11:53 PM
My pixie warlock uses a fun trick: Thistledown Padded Armor from Races of the Wild and Bracers of Armor from Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0) The difference between these bracers and the ones in the DMG (3.5) is that the AEG Bracers have a sidebar describing how to add Armor Properties to them.

Thistledown Padded has an AC bonus of only 1, ACF 0%, but has a max Dex of +10. You have the Thistledown Padded enhanced with Ghost Ward (+1 from MIC) and the Bracers of Armor have the Fortification property. The remaining AC from the Bracer stacks with the enhancement bonus of the Thistledown Padded because Bracers of Armor provide an Armor bonus, and the Thistledown is giving an enhancement bonus to AC. You do lose the +1 AC Armor bonus of the Thistledown, but big deal.

Voila! You can now apply all of that Dex and the enhancement bonus of your Thistledown to Touch AC, while at the same time your bracers are protecting you from Critical Hits and Sneak attacks.

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 01:14 AM
I'm surprised no one's mentioned celestial armor yet. +3 chainmail to start, +8 max DEX, counts as light armor and fly 1/day, for 22,400 gold. Sounds good to me.

It's a decent armor, but the big problem is that you have to pay for it as a +3 armor, something you'd normally never do due to Magic Vestment-spell. That inflates its price. Also, while it's a nimble suit of armour, it annoyingly has an armor check penalty. You can always see with your DM if you could further enchant it; making a Celestial Armor of Nimbleness with either 3-4 daily uses of the Flight, or constant Flight, is f*cking awesome, 'cause it nails multiple problems with one strike (add Ghost Ward for a perfect day).

Advocate
2009-02-27, 08:16 AM
Why not get Bracers of Armor? What else are you going to put there? Even if you do have an answer to that, Bracers of Armor aren't considered to be taking a slot, thus Bracers of Armor + whatever you said costs exactly as much as those two items combined, and no more, without having to get into DM fiat custom item rules.

Also, chain mail is suboptimal.

And armor bonus = armor. Full stop. You can do the same with robes.

Frosty
2009-02-27, 10:54 AM
What do you mean that the bracers don't take a slot? I thought they take the arm slot?

Neithan
2009-02-27, 10:57 AM
They do, but


What else are you going to put there?
:smallwink:

Advocate
2009-02-27, 11:10 AM
What do you mean that the bracers don't take a slot? I thought they take the arm slot?

Look at the MIC rules. Bracers of Armor (armor bonus, arm slot) does not interfere with *insert random non standard arm slot item*. It does not use a slot, in that you can get +armor and *other item* without paying any more than each item would cost individually, and without getting into DM fiat custom items.

Which means you can get say... a Bracers of Heavy Fortification Armor +8 for 169k. You can get Greatreach Bracers for 2k. You can get Bracers of Heavy Fortification +8 and Greatreach for 171k.

But you couldn't also add... eh, I dunno. I basically ran out of good arm slot items after listing those two, but pick one other one without getting into cost raises and DM fiat custom items.

mohdri
2009-02-27, 11:43 AM
There are a number of things (equipment, class features, spells) that give armor bonus' that are not considered armor. They are a wonderous item (magical) and would take up a slot. A big one (for example, discussed one these boards recently) is warforged composite plating. Not armor (no prof needed) but counts as armor (with some of the same penalties), but not the same thing. Warforged Monk is fine, just don't take any of the "Body" feats.

Advocate
2009-02-27, 12:22 PM
There are a number of things (equipment, class features, spells) that give armor bonus' that are not considered armor. They are a wonderous item (magical) and would take up a slot. A big one (for example, discussed one these boards recently) is warforged composite plating. Not armor (no prof needed) but counts as armor (with some of the same penalties), but not the same thing. Warforged Monk is fine, just don't take any of the "Body" feats.

Actually, you have to take Unarmored Body for that.

Regardless, Magic Vestment boosts Bracers of Armor, as the Bracers are just normal armor, without the weight, dex cap, slowing and other such reasons to never wear armor.

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 12:32 PM
Also, chain mail is suboptimal.

The thing with Celestial Armor is, it's not a standard Mithril Chainmail. It plain and simple breaks the rules; normal Mithril Chainmail has max Dex bonus of +4 while Celestial Armor has +8.

Basically, Celestial Armor is good because it's just plain better number-wise than any other suit of armor (it beats Mithril Breastplate by 3 points and Full-Plate/Thistledown Padded by 2 of total AC). Also, by RAW AEG rules aren't applicable for Bracers of Armor since the most recent source to print them is 3.5 DMG, which doesn't include the ability to add special abilities to Bracers and the most recent printing takes precedence.


Do note that Bracers cost way more than equivalent armor. Also note that Magic Vestment specifically defines "Armor" and "Shield" as the valid targets. Armor is an item type. Bracers is also a different item type; Bracers are worn on arms, Armor on torso. Therefore, Bracers are an invalid target for the spell.

Telonius
2009-02-27, 12:40 PM
Actually, you have to take Unarmored Body for that.


That's exactly what the discussion was over. The contention was that since the plating isn't technically "armor," a Warforged can take the Monk class without taking the feat (just like a normal human monk can wear Bracers of Armor without losing class features). Personally I think that since the Unarmored Body feat would totally useless except as a prereq to Reforged, that couldn't have been what the rulemakers were intending. But that's RAI, not RAW; and it's not like the rulemakers have never pushed a self-gimping option before.

Draz74
2009-02-27, 12:42 PM
Do note that Bracers cost way more than equivalent armor. Also note that Magic Vestment specifically defines "Armor" and "Shield" as the valid targets. Armor is an item type. Bracers is also a different item type; Bracers are worn on arms, Armor on torso. Therefore, Bracers are an invalid target for the spell.

Yes, but what Advocate was saying is:

Wear Bracers of Armor. These add an armor bonus to your AC.
Cast Magic Vestment on your normal robe-slot clothing item. (This is allowed by the spell description.) This adds an enhancement (armor) bonus to your AC.

By RAW, I think he's right that these two bonuses stack.

Advocate
2009-02-27, 12:57 PM
Magic Vestment also works on Mage Armor, Inertial Armor, etc.

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 02:00 PM
Yes, but what Advocate was saying is:

Wear Bracers of Armor. These add an armor bonus to your AC.
Cast Magic Vestment on your normal robe-slot clothing item. (This is allowed by the spell description.) This adds an enhancement (armor) bonus to your AC.

By RAW, I think he's right that these two bonuses stack.

I'm not so sure. An Enchantment-bonus on an item in itself adds nothing to your AC. As I understand, the enhancement bonus increases the armor bonus granted by the item which is then added to your armor, so casting Magic Vestment on your clothes would just have them give you +X armor to your AC which would then overlap with whatever bonuses your Bracers give you. Spell-based armor (at least the ones that specify they create a Force-version of Any Given Type Of Armor), on the other hand, seems to work just fine.

I distinctly recall that "Enhancement" was not a bonus type applicable to AC, but I can't seem to find the listing right now. I'll get back to you once I manage to figure out, which book it was in.

EDIT: Enhancement Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm#enhancementBonus): It does appear like the enhancement bonus, when it comes to armor/shield, needs to be applied to the object granting the bonus while natural armor enhancements can be applied to the creature.

Kalirren
2009-02-27, 03:09 PM
So here is a RAW argument for why the "Magic Vestment on the robes and Bracers of Armor" thing doesn't work.

Magic Vestment has an item as its target, not a person. It confers a maximum of +5 enhancement bonus to the armor bonus or shield bonus of the item targeted.

So when you cast Magic Vestment on a robe, the robe's armor bonus is recomputed: 0 (base armor bonus) +5 (enhancement bonus to armor bonus, Magic Vestment) = armor bonus of 5 conferred to the wearer by the robe.

Bracers of armor +8 confer an armor bonus of 8 to the person wearing them.

A character who wears both Bracers of Armor +8 and and a robe of Magic Vestment therefore is conferred two sources of armor bonus and only takes the higher, that is to say, the Bracers +8. They do not get 13 armor bonus.

This doesn't, however, address the problem of enchanting a pair of Bracers of Armor +8 with a suitably modified Magic Vestment spell, which can still give you the +5 enhancement on top of the 8 armor. Since it's unclear that such a modification should increase the spell level at all, I would personally houserule that the default Magic Vestment works in this way, and rewrite the target description of the spell to say "any item", which would allow 13 armor from both the +5 Bracers of Armor +8 and the Bracers of Armor +8 with Magic Vestment cast on them. But this is houserule territory.

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 03:34 PM
This doesn't, however, address the problem of enchanting a pair of Bracers of Armor +8 with a suitably modified Magic Vestment spell, which can still give you the +5 enhancement on top of the 8 armor. Since it's unclear that such a modification should increase the spell level at all, I would personally houserule that the default Magic Vestment works in this way, and rewrite the target description of the spell to say "any item", which would allow 13 armor from both the +5 Bracers of Armor +8 and the Bracers of Armor +8 with Magic Vestment cast on them. But this is houserule territory.

Yes, homebrew spells breaking set limits can break the system. Something else that's new? I'd definitely make a spell boosting a fundamentally magical protection higher level than a spell improving fundamentally physical protection. Seems to make all kind of sense; the spell-defense is already on "certain magical level" and thus you must increase that level to increase its protection while the mundane protection lacks any magical properties and just adding them therefore improves the protection.

Kalirren
2009-02-27, 05:56 PM
^^

I completely understand that line of thought. It's just been my experience in building high-level characters using WBL tables that the extra 63k in gold (difference between armor 8 braces and armor 8 full plate) is a pretty hefty price to pay. That's a lot of other benefits; concealment, displacement, evasion, etc. Now if you took away gold balance and the majority of magic items, and rewrote the system in terms of magic that advanced by character level like some innate magic systems do, then we'd have to talk about getting rid of bracers of armor altogether. But that is also a different problem.

Besides, the difference between 8 armor bonus and 13 armor bonus is very little compared to the difference between one class and another. The system is already broken on much larger and much more fundamental levels. A little simplification here and there won't hurt, especially considering that the simplification would bring the current interpretation into line with the rest of the rules history of bracers of armor as expounded in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

mikethepoor
2009-02-27, 07:27 PM
It's a decent armor, but the big problem is that you have to pay for it as a +3 armor, something you'd normally never do due to Magic Vestment-spell. That inflates its price. Also, while it's a nimble suit of armour, it annoyingly has an armor check penalty. You can always see with your DM if you could further enchant it; making a Celestial Armor of Nimbleness with either 3-4 daily uses of the Flight, or constant Flight, is f*cking awesome, 'cause it nails multiple problems with one strike (add Ghost Ward for a perfect day).

If armor check penalties are a problem, and the DM allows it, add the nimbleness quality from Magic Item Compendium. Another +1 max DEX bonus (up to +9) and negates that pesky penalty. Sure that makes it even more expensive, but what are you gonna do with that gold anyway?

Frosty
2009-02-27, 08:27 PM
Actually, you have to take Unarmored Body for that.

Regardless, Magic Vestment boosts Bracers of Armor, as the Bracers are just normal armor, without the weight, dex cap, slowing and other such reasons to never wear armor.

Trust me, I GM will NOT allow Bracers of Armor to be enhanced with Greater Magic Vestments, even if legal by RAW. Also, he probably also won't allow bracers of armor +8 +other enchantments.

woodenbandman
2009-02-27, 08:33 PM
Get Dastana. -1 ACP if you're not proficient, but it's a +1 AC, and then you get the twistcloth and pile enhancements on, or just go for bracers.

ericgrau
2009-02-27, 09:11 PM
Celestial armor (chainmail) has a max dex of +8, for a total of +13 before the magical enhancements. But it costs so much that it might as well be +10 to +12 until you get to really high levels, because you could have spent that gold on 1-3 AC from other sources. I'd go mithral at early levels and transition over to celestial armor at very late levels. In between when you're losing touch AC to the mithral, I dunno. Maybe armorless plus bracers of armor or a friendly mage armor or magic vestment, just temporarily until very high levels.

As for fortification, it seems too expensive to be worth it against crits early on. I mean crits are, what, 10% of attacks? So you can negate 25% of 10% (2.5%) or at least 5% of all attacks (including crit confirmations). Assuming you already have a decent AC that could easily be 10% or more instead of 5%. Maybe if you're getting sneak attacked a lot then yeah, I could see getting fortification. As a high dex character I'd be more worried about all those skill boosting armor enchantments you miss out on without armor.

EDIT: Other stuff cut since it was already said.

Eldariel
2009-02-28, 01:46 AM
Trust me, I GM will NOT allow Bracers of Armor to be enhanced with Greater Magic Vestments, even if legal by RAW. Also, he probably also won't allow bracers of armor +8 +other enchantments.

As we just covered, you can't use Magic Vestment on Bracers of Armor by RAW.

gabado
2009-02-28, 01:59 AM
Ok, the answer is simple ether bond leaf wrap(no max dex, cost:1000gp, and +ac with no ac check penalty) or feather armor(+8 max dex, +1ac, no check penalty, cost: 1000gp) these are both good choices for high-dex pc's.

As far as magic items go, try the magic item compendium; chapter one on magic armor.
:smallsmile:

herrhauptmann
2009-02-28, 02:08 AM
I'm going to bypass the whole armor+bracers of armor question and ask, have you thought of getting items and/or class abilities that grant you a miss chance?
Also get improved uncanny dodge so you've always got your dex to AC.

Your actual AC won't be very high, especially if you get stuck in an AMF, but outside of that, it won't matter as much because many of your enemies will end up frustrating themselves against your miss chance.

"What's that tarrasque? Your attack bonus is higher than my AC? Bite my 80% miss chance."
This is especially useful if the characters with high AC like the super-tank are still getting hit by half or more of the attacks they receive.

Advocate
2009-02-28, 01:10 PM
As for fortification, it seems too expensive to be worth it against crits early on. I mean crits are, what, 10% of attacks? So you can negate 25% of 10% (2.5%) or at least 5% of all attacks (including crit confirmations). Assuming you already have a decent AC that could easily be 10% or more instead of 5%. Maybe if you're getting sneak attacked a lot then yeah, I could see getting fortification. As a high dex character I'd be more worried about all those skill boosting armor enchantments you miss out on without armor.

EDIT: Other stuff cut since it was already said.

It does block the lucky crits that can turn a full attack taking you to 30% health from max to a full attack taking you from full to dead. It is primarily there for SA, Skirmish, etc though. 35k to shut down an entire archetype, unless they spend quite a bit themselves out of their much lower NPC wealth to counter your counter? Yes please. It also blocks CdGs, just in case you ever get held, or are actually capable of being attacked in your sleep, or whatever.

A high Dex character uses Gnome Twistcloth, which has no Max Dex, and allows getting the special properties.

Also, miss chance is a good idea, but you can't buy it up well. The most you can feasibly get is 20%, as the major cloak ends up inferior to the minor cloak due to needing a Standard to turn it on and off, and only getting 15 rounds total. Given that it costs over twice as much... if you can't get the DM to house rule a free action activation, like with boots of speed forget about it.

herrhauptmann
2009-03-01, 12:04 AM
The most you can feasibly get is 20%, as the major cloak ends up inferior to the minor cloak due to needing a Standard to turn it on and off, and only getting 15 rounds total. Given that it costs over twice as much... if you can't get the DM to house rule a free action activation, like with boots of speed forget about it.

Yah, as much as I like the MIC, I don't like that most of the magic items are now limited uses a day. That would work fine if you DM keeps to the rule set by WOTC that a single day in character should have 4 encounters: 1 easy, 2 average and 1 challenging.

It would probably be better to look up the custom crafting rules and find what it'll cost to have an item made that duplicates a spell or class ability. One of my favorites so far is a mask of synthesete (psion power), takes up face or eye slot, and negates blindness OR deafness.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 07:30 AM
Major cloak of Displacement is a DMG item. Same with Minor.

asphen fox
2009-03-01, 09:42 AM
For a bit more information, my character is going to be a semi-optimized Human Pathfinder Bard 4/Warblade 16 (more Warblade levels if we go into epic) who will use Dragonfire Inspiration (but not Words of Creation) and Two-weapon fighting to get a ridiculous amount of d6s in elemental damage. Eventually going for Perfect TWF, so I'll have 25 or more Dex. Dunno on the point buy yet. Might actually be getting a feat every odd level instead of every 3 levels like normal, but possible only one or even no Flaws.


You do know that you need to be dragon-blooded to get Dragonfire Inspiration?

Frosty
2009-03-01, 01:24 PM
Yes, and there's a feat that turns me dragon-blooded. My DM lets me count bard as sorcerer for the purposes of picking up the feat.

Tubercular Ox
2009-03-01, 07:47 PM
Just to muddy the waters, if you read the MIC, it says that you can throw an AC bonus onto a body-slot item, not just an arms item.

So you enchant your robe with +8 AC. Magic Vestment works on regular clothes. Robes are regular clothes.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-02, 06:43 AM
So you enchant your robe with +8 AC. Magic Vestment works on regular clothes. Robes are regular clothes. OK, now this is paying attention to the rules, in the specific case of the Scholar's Outfit.
Scholarís Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak.
You've got to get custom items crafted to make it work, which means either begging your DM to give your character access to an appropriate NPC, or taking Craft Wondrous Item for your character. But it should actually let these AC bonuses reside on the same item.

asphen fox
2009-03-02, 08:59 AM
Yes, and there's a feat that turns me dragon-blooded. My DM lets me count bard as sorcerer for the purposes of picking up the feat.

Really? Can you tell me which book I can find it in? I'm having trouble getting Dragonfire for my bard due to fluff reasons <_<

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 09:08 AM
Dragontouched from Dragon Magic.

asphen fox
2009-03-02, 09:13 AM
Oh... ok... thanks.