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magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 02:22 AM
What do you all think of this PrC? (Magic of Faerun)

What I can see is that your damage when you go nova is very high (Meteor Swarm/round at level 12) but that it takes a lot of work to charge up. Good healing, too.

Would work well with a Focused Specialist wizard, methinks. That way you have a lot of spell levels to charge yourself with.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-01, 02:28 AM
The best way to charge up is to buy a wand of light (375 gp). This can give you 50 spellfire charges. That equals...~7gp per spellfire charge!

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 02:33 AM
No...best way to charge it up is to hire a friendly warlock to use an invocation on you over and over and over and over and over and over again.

That lets you nova at the start of every enounter for almost no cost.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 02:47 AM
No...best way to charge it up is to hire a friendly warlock to use an invocation on you over and over and over and over and over and over again.

That lets you nova at the start of every enounter for almost no cost.

Can you absorb spell-likes?

If so, then being a Warlock yourself would probably be the best bet.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-01, 03:00 AM
Good point, forgot about that.

Leadership could be good for this, if you don't want to be a warlock.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 03:01 AM
You can't really ready an action to absorb a spell or spell-like and then spend your standard action to use that spell or spell like ability. You'd need someone else to ping you while you stand there getting ready to absorb it.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 03:26 AM
You can't really ready an action to absorb a spell or spell-like and then spend your standard action to use that spell or spell like ability. You'd need someone else to ping you while you stand there getting ready to absorb it.

Delay Spell.

Actually, scratch that, just use a swift spell e.g. Critical Strike. Standard Action: Ready. Swift Action: spell. Readied action triggers and absorbs it. Repeat for all spells.

Emperor Tippy
2009-03-01, 03:40 AM
Delay Spell.

Actually, scratch that, just use a swift spell e.g. Critical Strike. Standard Action: Ready. Swift Action: spell. Readied action triggers and absorbs it. Repeat for all spells.

Do warlocks have any swift action invocations?

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 03:51 AM
Do warlocks have any swift action invocations?

Do we care? The wording is iffy on whether it absorbs SLAs and no sane DM will let you use Warlock to power it. So Focused Diviner looks good to me.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 01:07 PM
Why? SLAs are exactly like spells in almost every way except components and counterspellability. They still check SR (if applicable), require defensive casting to use while threatened, and can be identified by a sufficiently high Spellcraft check. They ARE spells, except slightly different, but not in a way that would affect a Spellfire Wielder.

Baring that, being a Spellfire Wielder is bad. Denying yourself actions in combat because someone MAY cast a spell that MAY target you is a terribad decision.

Alleine
2009-03-01, 03:20 PM
Baring that, being a Spellfire Wielder is bad. Denying yourself actions in combat because someone MAY cast a spell that MAY target you is a terribad decision.

You could fix it by saying the class gets absorptive spell resistance that feeds into their spellfire levels. Not sure how well it would work, but it sure would be nicer.

Aside from having a potentially hard time getting more spellfire levels without spending cash, the class looks like tons of fun. Very blasty with the added benefit of being a backup emergency healer. The only way I could see making it better would be to convert that bit of fire damage you do into something else. Fire = suck at higher levels when everyone and their grandma has some sort of fire resistance.

With a little tweaking, I could comfortably play this from 1 to 20. The only question being what are the rest of your levels going to be?

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 04:00 PM
You could fix it by saying the class gets absorptive spell resistance that feeds into their spellfire levels. Not sure how well it would work, but it sure would be nicer.

Aside from having a potentially hard time getting more spellfire levels without spending cash, the class looks like tons of fun. Very blasty with the added benefit of being a backup emergency healer. The only way I could see making it better would be to convert that bit of fire damage you do into something else. Fire = suck at higher levels when everyone and their grandma has some sort of fire resistance.

With a little tweaking, I could comfortably play this from 1 to 20. The only question being what are the rest of your levels going to be?

The "easy way" to get spellfire levels is to go, say, Focused Diviner for the first 5 levels. That way you get a ton of spells/day that you can then pour any excess of into your spellfire. Also, that's why Drain Permanent Item is so awesome. Find some cheap objects with a high CL and go nuts.

Spellfire is 1/2 fire, 1/2 untyped. The main problem isn't that, it's that it requires an attack roll *and* allows a Reflex save. Ability Focus would be a really good idea.

Alleine
2009-03-01, 05:25 PM
How do you change all of those spells into spellfire though? Unless I missed the part where you can convert your own spells into spellfire levels.
I'm pretty sure CL is usually directly tied to item price, so I don't think there are many low-cost high-CL items.

Boosting that reflex save would be pretty hard. It starts at a very shiny DC 20, but that isn't so hot at higher levels. Ability Focus only bumps that to 22. If the DM permits, you could make it DC 10 + Spellfire Channeler levels + ability score. Off the top of my head I can't think of another way to boost the DC.

Glimbur
2009-03-01, 05:36 PM
Universal Solvent is CL 20 and only 50 gp a dose, but I'm not familiar with Spellfire Channeler so I don't know if you can use it.

quick_comment
2009-03-01, 05:39 PM
I'm pretty sure CL is usually directly tied to item price, so I don't think there are many low-cost high-CL items.


The best I think you can do is charged runes of cantrips.

Spellfire also synergizes nicely with unarmed combat. My DM let me use the drain permanent item ability to drain the armor and weapons of the enemy by making touch attacks against them.

Alleine
2009-03-01, 06:23 PM
Spellfire also synergizes nicely with unarmed combat. My DM let me use the drain permanent item ability to drain the armor and weapons of the enemy by making touch attacks against them.

This gives me the vision of a pixie Spellfire Channeler flying around with Greater Invisibility and draining all of an enemy's magic items. Then you rain destruction on their heads using the power you just took from them.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-01, 10:35 PM
For super novaing (is that a word?), get leadership and make all of your followers warlocks. First round, you nova, they eldritch spear. Next round, you ready for absorbation, they eldritch spear you. Rinse and repeat.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 11:56 PM
For super novaing (is that a word?), get leadership and make all of your followers warlocks. First round, you nova, they eldritch spear. Next round, you ready for absorbation, they eldritch spear you. Rinse and repeat.

However, it's unknown whether you can absorb spell-likes. It doesn't say you can. And anyway, you'd need a LOT of warlocks. Eldritch Blast is equivalent to a 1st-level spell, Eldritch Spear to a 2nd. At max, you want recharge of 5x your Con, which is going to be over 100 levels. Also, make SURE none of the warlocks are within 30 feet, in case you fail a Will save (the DC's 25, so it's a real chance). Otherwise they'll get incinerated.

And only 1st and 2nd-level Warlocks will actually do more damage this way. Anything higher and the EB itself will do more damage than the spellfire damage gained.

Alleine
2009-03-02, 12:54 AM
Man, now I really want to update and tweak the spellfire mechanics, then play this thing. I now have another build I really REALLY want to play :P

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 01:24 AM
Tell me about it. I have more builds I want to try than I have games to play. I joined a PbP game so I could try out one I made for someone else, and I dunno when I'll ever get to try out my Suel Arcanamach Paladin build...

Gah.....

Alleine
2009-03-02, 01:43 AM
I'm pretty sure I'll be stuck with visions of just how freaking cool it would look to play this, especially at higher levels. With the right race and items at level 15, you could unleash a maelstrom that goes like this: "Ok, everyone in 20 ft makes a reflex save and dies anyway"
Heck, you could also get the DM to approve of metamgic supernatural rods. No feats though, those suck and have HD requirements.
I'm curious about something though. Why are most of the save DCs non-scaling? Is there a lot of 3.0 stuff that doesn't scale?


I have more builds I want to try than games I could reasonably play :smallannoyed:
On top of 3.5 I might start playing Shadowrun too. Dear jeebus I might explode in much the same way a spellfire Channeler would.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-02, 04:59 AM
I'm pretty sure I'll be stuck with visions of just how freaking cool it would look to play this, especially at higher levels. With the right race and items at level 15, you could unleash a maelstrom that goes like this: "Ok, everyone in 20 ft makes a reflex save and dies anyway"
Heck, you could also get the DM to approve of metamgic supernatural rods. No feats though, those suck and have HD requirements.
I'm curious about something though. Why are most of the save DCs non-scaling? Is there a lot of 3.0 stuff that doesn't scale?


I have more builds I want to try than games I could reasonably play :smallannoyed:
On top of 3.5 I might start playing Shadowrun too. Dear jeebus I might explode in much the same way a spellfire Channeler would.

They don't have a tendency to explode. They only take at max 1d6 points of damage a round, and that's if they fail a Con check DC 10. Con being of course their "casting stat". At later levels it becomes literally impossible for them to fail the check, and they can heal themselves anyway. The Will save is to avoid nuking someone near you, which might be fatal for them, but not you.

quick_comment
2009-03-02, 09:33 AM
You might also get the DM to approve Metaspellfire feats.

Maybe even let you take feats to learn and apply some warlock shape or blast essences.

Alleine
2009-03-02, 07:17 PM
I just read the part on increased storage #5. Saying if you fail a will save you unleash a maximum strength blast of spellfire at a target in 30 ft. Then I continued to read how there's a cap on the number of spellfire levels you can voluntarily expend up to your constitution score. Involuntary expenditures have so such cap.
Maximum strength. No cap. Just tell everyone to stay far away?

I knew it was bad already since I'd read it before, but I didn't see the part where maximum strength has no definition, and apparently no limit except up to the number of spellfire levels you have.

SilentNight
2009-03-02, 07:59 PM
I just read the part on increased storage #5. Saying if you fail a will save you unleash a maximum strength blast of spellfire at a target in 30 ft. Then I continued to read how there's a cap on the number of spellfire levels you can voluntarily expend up to your constitution score. Involuntary expenditures have so such cap.
Maximum strength. No cap. Just tell everyone to stay far away?

I knew it was bad already since I'd read it before, but I didn't see the part where maximum strength has no definition, and apparently no limit except up to the number of spellfire levels you have.

Well, assumedly, if a normal blast has a cap of your CON score, a "max strength" blast would be xd6 where x is your con score. This also gets you down to level 4 storage where you run no such risk. On another note, are you actually going to rewrite the mechanics? I'd be very interested to see it. Methinks drain permanent item could use a boost.

Alleine
2009-03-02, 08:19 PM
Hmm, I suppose it would work that way. Except that it explicitly states that "Involuntary expenditure, such as that noted above, isnít limited in this way". Each storage level has its own extra involuntary expenditure stuff, but those are already limited to so many dice of spellfire levels.

And yeah, I am trying to rewrite it, although its less of a rewrite and more of a subtle tweaking/updating. Mostly it will involve scaling DCs and actually being able to absorb something without wasting a turn hoping someone casts a spell at you if all you have is the feat.
I don't think it will be that great, but it'll serve my purposes.
I seem to be very interested in tweaking lately. :smallconfused:

I also just realized how odd spellfire is. The ability to hurt, heal, and... fly? Cool, but very strange.

SilentNight
2009-03-02, 09:03 PM
Well, it's raw magic, that's completely within the realm of possibility. Make sure you post it though. It's pretty badly needed. :smallbiggrin:

PrismaticPIA
2009-03-03, 02:56 AM
Universal Solvent is CL 20 and only 50 gp a dose, but I'm not familiar with Spellfire Channeler so I don't know if you can use it.

It's kinda shady, but you could have a devoted cohort buy Universal Solvent for you, and take Vow of Poverty...using Universal Solvent like energizer batteries.

A magic-hating spellfire channeler is pretty funny.

Alleine
2009-03-03, 03:40 AM
Ok, I don't know how to do any fancy formatting, but I don't think this really needs it. If anyone has suggestions on something else I'd love to hear it.
This isn't really a fix, just so you know. I'm just trying making it more useful. The wording may not be precise, so cut me some slack, eh?

For Spellfire in general:
You can absorb any spells, spell-like abilities, or magical effects from an item directed at you if you ready an action to do so beforehand. The number of spellfire levels gained is equal to the spell level of the effect.
You may also consume your own spell power to gain spellfire levels. For the purposes of spell levels, a cantrip is equal to 1/2 a level. You lose any spells you consume in this way as if they were cast. Spell-like abilities can also be consumed in this way, if the ability is once per day, you lose the use of it for the rest of the day. If the ability is multiple times per day, you lose one use of he ability for that day. If the ability is at will, you lose use of it for an hour*.
The DC for the reflex save against a spellfire attack is 10 + your con modifier.


The class itself:
--At 1st level, the reflex save for spellfire attacks becomes 10 + your Spellfire Channeler level + your con modifier.

--The constitution check vs backfiring in the Increased Storage ability changes. With the first IS ability, the DC is 10 and goes up by with each increase and storage. So when you exceed you constitution by 2x + 1 the DC for that is 15, and so on until it hits 25. The DC only increases if you exceed your constitution enough to reach the next storage level.

--Draining Charged Items: The will save DC is 10 + 1/2 your SFC level + con mod. It takes a standard action to make the touch attack required for draining the items of an unwilling creature. This works on permanent items that have charges per day, and you drain one charge each time.

--Draining Permanent Items: The will save is the same as for charged items. Same basic rules, only you can drain from any permanent magical item. Armor, weapon, wonderous item. The drained item loses its properties for 24 hours and you gain half the caster level in spellfire levels.

--Maelstrom of Fire uses the same save DC as a regular blast of spellfire. Making the DC charisma based was a stupid and pointless move on the creator's part.


*I'm really not sure what it should be for this. I'd rather not see a Warlock be able to sit there in the morning stocking up on spellfire levels while everyone prepares spells, but I also don't like the idea of the Warlock losing stuff for long.

So... questions, comments, concerns, fantasies?


I'm not particularly happy about some of it. I'd like to see other abilities as part of the class, but if it got any more abilities it would probably have to be a full class instead of a PrC. I think the absorbing powers could be buffed a little. Like maybe an ability to absorb a magical effect cast on you as an immediate action every once in awhile? That way you can actually absorb enemy spells.


@^
Universal solvent would probably be considered a charged item. It certainly isn't permanent. It would probably have just the one 'charge'. Though honestly it would be entirely up to the DM.
How would a magic hating SFC work? They wield raw magic! It would sure suck for them :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2009-03-03, 04:27 AM
Well, assumedly, if a normal blast has a cap of your CON score, a "max strength" blast would be xd6 where x is your con score. This also gets you down to level 4 storage where you run no such risk. On another note, are you actually going to rewrite the mechanics? I'd be very interested to see it. Methinks drain permanent item could use a boost.

Correct. It says that you have to make a blast in preference to any other action, so it would count against the cap of CON score levels/round. Otherwise it'd all dump.

What you have to be REALLY scared of is someone full-attacking you with unarmed strikes or natural attacks. That'll dissipate your levels really fast. Of course, if you have Crown of Fire on, then their hands, feet, claws etc. will melt off, so they sort of get pwned too.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-03, 04:52 AM
Ok, I don't know how to do any fancy formatting, but I don't think this really needs it. If anyone has suggestions on something else I'd love to hear it.
This isn't really a fix, just so you know. I'm just trying making it more useful. The wording may not be precise, so cut me some slack, eh?

For Spellfire in general:
You can absorb any spells, spell-like abilities, or magical effects from an item directed at you if you ready an action to do so beforehand. The number of spellfire levels gained is equal to the spell level of the effect.
You may also consume your own spell power to gain spellfire levels. For the purposes of spell levels, a cantrip is equal to 1/2 a level. You lose any spells you consume in this way as if they were cast. Spell-like abilities can also be consumed in this way, if the ability is once per day, you lose the use of it for the rest of the day. If the ability is multiple times per day, you lose one use of he ability for that day. If the ability is at will, you lose use of it for an hour*.
The DC for the reflex save against a spellfire attack is 10 + your con modifier.


The class itself:
--At 1st level, the reflex save for spellfire attacks becomes 10 + your Spellfire Channeler level + your con modifier.

--The constitution check vs backfiring in the Increased Storage ability changes. With the first IS ability, the DC is 10 and goes up by with each increase and storage. So when you exceed you constitution by 2x + 1 the DC for that is 15, and so on until it hits 25. The DC only increases if you exceed your constitution enough to reach the next storage level.

--Draining Charged Items: The will save DC is 10 + 1/2 your SFC level + con mod. It takes a standard action to make the touch attack required for draining the items of an unwilling creature. This works on permanent items that have charges per day, and you drain one charge each time.

--Draining Permanent Items: The will save is the same as for charged items. Same basic rules, only you can drain from any permanent magical item. Armor, weapon, wonderous item. The drained item loses its properties for 24 hours and you gain half the caster level in spellfire levels.

--Maelstrom of Fire uses the same save DC as a regular blast of spellfire. Making the DC charisma based was a stupid and pointless move on the creator's part.


*I'm really not sure what it should be for this. I'd rather not see a Warlock be able to sit there in the morning stocking up on spellfire levels while everyone prepares spells, but I also don't like the idea of the Warlock losing stuff for long.

So... questions, comments, concerns, fantasies?


I'm not particularly happy about some of it. I'd like to see other abilities as part of the class, but if it got any more abilities it would probably have to be a full class instead of a PrC. I think the absorbing powers could be buffed a little. Like maybe an ability to absorb a magical effect cast on you as an immediate action every once in awhile? That way you can actually absorb enemy spells.


@^
Universal solvent would probably be considered a charged item. It certainly isn't permanent. It would probably have just the one 'charge'. Though honestly it would be entirely up to the DM.
How would a magic hating SFC work? They wield raw magic! It would sure suck for them :smalltongue:

Ok, 1st thing. The DC of Spellfire is way too low under your rules. Remember, it requires a touch attack to hit as well. Removing the Reflex save for normal blasts entirely would be more than reasonable.

2nd: Cha modifier is there for a reason: Pretty much all monster (Su) abilities have 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod as a saving throw. Spellfire is (Su).

3rd: Making the backfire check scale is pretty dumb. That makes the higher levels completely useless, as it's nigh-impossible to make a DC 25 Con check. The reduced duration is bad enough. Ability checks past 20 are almost never seen.

4th: Allowing a Warlock to charge themselves up is rather reasonable. After all, Spellfire is much less powerful than spells at higher levels. Maybe only allow absorption of spell-likes as a class ability.




Other than that...

What do you guys think of the following:

Warlock 1/Half-Elf Paragon 1/Human Paragon 3/Spellfire Channeler 10/Half-Elf Paragon +2/X 3.

That gives you Concentration as a perma-class skill and +4 to Constitution. Also bonus feats, which help. Warlock goes well thematically with SFC as well.

Alleine
2009-03-03, 11:40 AM
1: Its a touch attack. Last I checked those are freakin' easy to make. So removing the reflex save is kinda iffy IMHO. Granted I don't like the idea of a rogue being able to completely negate your entire class feature with Evasion. So getting rid of it will probably happen. I just think the fact that this can turn into a LOT of damage means it should be more difficult that a touch attack.

2: Huh. I didn't think of that. It just has that feeling of multiple casting stats kinda thing going, and I really don't like those. Makes sense though. I suppose changing it would be fine, especially if you ditch the ref save for normal blasts.

3: Maybe it shouldn't scale so fast? I still think it should scale, because DC 10 is pathetic. And this is an ability check, which in the SRD is likened to an untrained skill check. The kind of check that you don't automatically fail on nat 1. If anyone ever remotely tries to optimize con, the 1/round checks will be completely pointless.

4: That's a good idea. Spell-like absorption as a class feature. How should the absorption be handled though? Is it good as is? Or should they just be able to spend an hour filling up their spellfire levels? This class pretty much negates any attempts to make eldritch blast awesome.


That's not a bad build! I didn't even think of paragon levels for boosting stats. Usually I just grab races or templates. Like Crucians, who have a +6 con. But they have 2 LA, and you build doesn't, making it a much better idea than mine.
You could also tack on a few levels of swordsage/warblade to snag the maneuvers that let you replace a save with a concentration check for cheesed out saves.

SilentNight
2009-03-03, 07:00 PM
1: Its a touch attack. Last I checked those are freakin' easy to make. So removing the reflex save is kinda iffy IMHO. Granted I don't like the idea of a rogue being able to completely negate your entire class feature with Evasion. So getting rid of it will probably happen. I just think the fact that this can turn into a LOT of damage means it should be more difficult that a touch attack.

Yeah, but as someone said earlier (you actually I think) by the time you get to that level "everybody and their grandma has some form of fire resistance" meaning they get to ignore almost half of it.

Alleine
2009-03-04, 12:06 AM
Oh yeah. Heh. So no reflex save for a regular spellfire blast then.
So is it good for the most part?