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Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 02:37 AM
I am playing a ranger up to 30th level with the 5 levels of tempest (25 ranger 5 tempest) to help take advantage of the two weapon fighting style i have selected. currently i am 5th level ranger with the following feats:
1 Dogde
BF (human) Able Learner
2 Two weapon fighting
3 Endurance
3 Mobility
My next feat at 6th level Ranger will be spring attack to qualify for Tempest but after 9th level when i take improved Crit i am lost as to what feats to take.

What i have planned currently if the following
6 imp 2 weapon fighting
6 spring attack
9 (3 tempest) Improved Crit Scimitar
12 (7 ranger) Improved Buckler Defense
15 two weapon rend?

If you could help me find feats that optimize on two weapon fighting while helping me with my critical hits (aka improved crit feat for rapier and scimitar)
that would be appreciated. Also if you could help me build my character and optimize him on being a "tank" fighter that would help.

Thank you for your help

Mark Hall
2009-03-01, 04:45 AM
1) Improved Crit for rapier or scimitar... personally, I'd go with a single light weapon, over two non-light weapons, even if they are finessable; a ranger who uses paired Kukri will do 1 point less damage, on average, per hit, but will hit more often because they're using an off-hand light weapon.

2) I'd look into a couple different things. One would be Power Attack and Cleave. While Power Attack isn't ideal for this build, being able to make a second attack every time you kill someone is pretty nice for a multi-hitter. Not being familiar with the tempest, you might also look into a few Combat Expertise feats, and Combat reflexes isn't a bad idea; if you're tanking, you want the ability to make attacks of opportunity if people try to get past you.

3) If the DM allows it, and you're truly at a loss for additional feats, grab Wild Talent and some Psionic Feats. Or grab a couple low-level Martial feats... a stance that suits your fighting style is a great option, and if you've only got the one, you can use it more or less permanently.

Irate Ranger
2009-03-01, 05:12 AM
Scimitar is a solid weapon choice for rangers, either dual wield them or put a lighter weapon in your off-hand.

And don't forget to bring a bow, they come in handy when you least expect it, and pick a nice big animal companion that can take a few punches on your behalf.

Temp.
2009-03-01, 05:26 AM
If you could help me find feats that optimize on two weapon fighting while helping me with my critical hits (aka improved crit feat for rapier and scimitar)
that would be appreciated. Also if you could help me build my character and optimize him on being a "tank" fighter that would help.

Thank you for your help

I feel I have to ask whether Tome of Battle is being used. Tiger Claw Warblades get some nice Crit-based TWF goodies. They also tend to have an easier time surviving to higher levels. Even if multiclassing is out, Martial Study and Martial Stance are going to be strong feat choices here. The Sudden Leap boost and Blood in the Water stance are going to be incredibly useful; it probably won't matter much what you use to meet their requirements.

The easiest advice is to get Wand Chambers (Dungeonscape) for your weapons and to load them with Ranger Spells from the Spell Compendium. This won't help with your feats, but it should help you out in combat.

For feats, look at Complete Warrior's Elusive Target. It's just about the greatest defensive melee feat in the game--it negates Power Attack, messes with flankers and gives you some opportunities to do some tripping.

Also, you'll probably need some source of damage. Two light weapons without Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Riposte/Stormguard Warrior/whatever just aren't that scary past level 6.

If you don't want to multiclass into Warblade, I would highly recommend taking 4 Scout levels (CAd) for the Swift Hunter feat (CS). This will drastically increase your damage any round you move and attack. With any number of sources for Pounce or swift movement, you should be able to full attack with full skirmish damage nearly every round.

With what you have, I'm not sure how you'll manage to tank... Favored Enemy--Arcanists (CM) and Favored Power Attack (CW) might make you a bit more of a threat, but even then it's iffy.

So, I guess I don't know what to tell you. A TWF Ranger is basically a Warrior with a bunch of out-of-combat abilities (by the way, check out Darkstalker from Lords of Madness -- it's required for all scout-types). You don't really have the framework for a tank and building up the Spring attack chain doesn't help.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 08:02 AM
For clarifying on tempest its 5 levels at the end does the following:
+3 AC (do not know bonus type doesnt state in coAD)
Lessens two weapon fighting penalties to the following (-2 for two one handed weapons, +0 for One handed and light weapon)
Share feats associated with both weapons for the following:
Improved Crit, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specializatoin, The greater versions and i cannot remember the rest.

Unfortunately Tome of Battle is out, first time our DM used this campaign with a different group a warblade played by a power gamer ruined his experience with the book :smallfrown:

Thanks for the advice above and to come more help would be appreciated.:smallsmile:

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 08:05 AM
I am playing a ranger up to 30th level with the 5 levels of tempest (25 ranger 5 tempest) to help take advantage of the two weapon fighting style i have selected. currently i am 5th level ranger with the following feats:
1 Dogde
BF (human) Able Learner
2 Two weapon fighting
3 Endurance
3 Mobility
My next feat at 6th level Ranger will be spring attack to qualify for Tempest but after 9th level when i take improved Crit i am lost as to what feats to take.

What i have planned currently if the following
6 imp 2 weapon fighting
6 spring attack
9 (3 tempest) Improved Crit Scimitar
12 (7 ranger) Improved Buckler Defense
15 two weapon rend?

If you could help me find feats that optimize on two weapon fighting while helping me with my critical hits (aka improved crit feat for rapier and scimitar)
that would be appreciated. Also if you could help me build my character and optimize him on being a "tank" fighter that would help.

Thank you for your help

Also if you could please list the book in which the feats you recommend are in. I have trouble reading acronyms most times and would love to read your recommendations in the books. Thanks again for helping me out

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 08:09 AM
Scimitar is a solid weapon choice for rangers, either dual wield them or put a lighter weapon in your off-hand.

And don't forget to bring a bow, they come in handy when you least expect it, and pick a nice big animal companion that can take a few punches on your behalf.

Speaking of Animal companion how do you get the most out of a rangers animal companion. The effective level is half your ranger level (which sucks overtime) I know of the natural bond feat in some complete book but is there anyother way to get more out of a "crappy" companion?

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 01:20 PM
The best way to optimize your animal companion, especially at (WTF?) level 30 is to get rid of it. Trade it out for some other class feature. PHBII has the Distracting Attack ability which replaces your Companion starting at level 4. Anyone hit by you in melee or at range is considered flanked for the rest of the round, no save. This is really nice for the rogue in your party, as you can stand adjacent to each other and attack the same enemy and he still gets to SA. Its not as good for you, but at least it isn't a liability like a level 15 animal companion would be at level 30.

Another suggestion I'd make is the same as someone else above. Take 4 levels of Scout(Complete Adventurer) instead of 4 levels of Ranger, grab the feat Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) and probably the feat Improved Scirmish (Complete Adventurer). Now you'll get a whole ton of bonus dice as long as you keep moving and attacking. Now, to build off your Spring Attack, consider Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHBII. These give you your 2nd and 3rd iterative attacks while Spring Attacking, which is better than none. Now grab Double Hit from the Miniatures Handbook so you can strike with both weapons. This gives you 6 attacks in a round while Spring Attacking, all of which get bonus scirmish damage. Oh, and depending on your favored enemies, you'll be able to scirmish them too, thanks to Swift Hunter. Pick Undead, Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, and Plants as favored enemies and you'll be able to apply all your precision based damage to all the things you normally couldn't.

All that said, this is hardly most optimal. Ranger, and particularly melee classes in general, don't hold up well at epic levels. Everyone else is running around with a rocket launcher, and you are stuck with a dull pocket knife. Your damage will be low compared to...everyone else, and there really isn't any way to get your AC up to a meaningful number at level 30. But if you follow some of this advice, at least you won't be as bad as you could possibly be.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 01:34 PM
The best way to optimize your animal companion, especially at (WTF?) level 30 is to get rid of it. Trade it out for some other class feature. PHBII has the Distracting Attack ability which replaces your Companion starting at level 4. Anyone hit by you in melee or at range is considered flanked for the rest of the round, no save. This is really nice for the rogue in your party, as you can stand adjacent to each other and attack the same enemy and he still gets to SA. Its not as good for you, but at least it isn't a liability like a level 15 animal companion would be at level 30.

Another suggestion I'd make is the same as someone else above. Take 4 levels of Scout(Complete Adventurer) instead of 4 levels of Ranger, grab the feat Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) and probably the feat Improved Scirmish (Complete Adventurer). Now you'll get a whole ton of bonus dice as long as you keep moving and attacking. Now, to build off your Spring Attack, consider Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHBII. These give you your 2nd and 3rd iterative attacks while Spring Attacking, which is better than none. Now grab Double Hit from the Miniatures Handbook so you can strike with both weapons. This gives you 6 attacks in a round while Spring Attacking, all of which get bonus scirmish damage. Oh, and depending on your favored enemies, you'll be able to scirmish them too, thanks to Swift Hunter. Pick Undead, Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, and Plants as favored enemies and you'll be able to apply all your precision based damage to all the things you normally couldn't.

All that said, this is hardly most optimal. Ranger, and particularly melee classes in general, don't hold up well at epic levels. Everyone else is running around with a rocket launcher, and you are stuck with a dull pocket knife. Your damage will be low compared to...everyone else, and there really isn't any way to get your AC up to a meaningful number at level 30. But if you follow some of this advice, at least you won't be as bad as you could possibly be.

Thanks for the advice, also one class feature of tempest i forgot to mention is at level 5 you can make a spring attack and attack with both weapons. But as far as the animal companion I'll take a look at the players handbook II and see. Thank you for your advice.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-01, 01:38 PM
I thought the companion was treated as though you were a Druid who was 3 levels lower then your Ranger level? Natural Bond from Complete Adventurer would give you a Druid companion, but the 5 Tempest levels would hurt it (which is ironic considering the topic and my username:smalltongue:). http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf features the Solitary Hunter Ranger which trades for companion in for applying Favoured Enemy bonuses to attack rolls.

TempusCCK
2009-03-01, 01:49 PM
Or just goad your DM into letting you have an animal companion as a Druid, there is just go reason why it shouldn't be like that, Ranger being as weak as it is.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 01:57 PM
Thanks for the advice, also one class feature of tempest i forgot to mention is at level 5 you can make a spring attack and attack with both weapons.

Still look into Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHBII though. These will let you get nearly as many attacks while Spring Attacking as you would from standing still. All you'll be missing is your 4th main hand iterative and a haste attack.

Another thing to consider is Dervish from Complete Warrior. Most of the prereqs are the same (Dodge + Mobility), allows you to treat Scimiar's as light weapons with respect to using 2 of them, and Dervish Dance is like Spring Attack +1. The capstone ability called One Thousand Cuts doubles the number of attacks you get in a round. Combine this with a pair of +1 Wounding Enervating weapons and you'll inflict massive amounts of pain even at high levels. Maybe a build like:

Ranger2/Scout4/Dervish10/Tempest5/Ranger+4 for a level 30 build.

Alternatively, if you have any Ebberon books, there is a PrC called Revenant Blade in one of them (Ebberon Campaign Setting, IIRC) which allows you to wield a Double Scimitar as if it were 2 seperate 2handed weapons. Something like this would be:

Ranger2/Scout4/Dervish10/RevBlade5/Ranger+4

Then you could take Power Attack (which gets 2:1 returns) and use that while Dervish Dancing to make lots of attacks while moving. Similar flavor to your Tempest, much stronger mechanical execution.

Spiryt
2009-03-01, 02:00 PM
I thought the companion was treated as though you were a Druid who was 3 levels lower then your Ranger level? Natural Bond from Complete Adventurer would give you a Druid companion, but the 5 Tempest levels would hurt it (which is ironic considering the topic and my username:smalltongue:). http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf features the Solitary Hunter Ranger which trades for companion in for applying Favoured Enemy bonuses to attack rolls.

Or have Distracting attack variant. It's much better if you're archery focused, but if you have rogue(s) in party it's great anyway.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-01, 03:06 PM
Was two weapon style your first choice, or did you pick it because it was that or archery style? The benefits granted by Tempest are negligible by level 20, and it ends up being five wasted levels assuming you survive to 30. I'd suggest going with the Strong-Arm (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) combat style to get Power Attack at 2, Improved Sunder at 6, and Great Cleave at 11 and use a two-handed weapon with Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer and the spell Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium.

An even better option would be to use the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant from Unearthed Arcana, and take Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer, and Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior. I'd go Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3 in that order, then get Nature's Warrior +2/ Master of Many Forms +2/ Warshaper +2/ Nature's Warrior +2, and then either take more Master of Many Forms or more Ranger, maybe dip one level of Monk if you don't want to be entirely dependent on a Monk's Belt for your AC. Go Human and get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), Robilar's Gambit (PH2), any feat at 15, and Defensive Sweep (PH2) at 18. Use a Glaive until you get a decent combat form, Cave Troll (MM3) should last until you get War Troll (MM3), and Frozen Wild Shape will also give you access to Cryohydra once you get access to Huge forms. A 12-headed Cryohydra gets a 12-bite AoO every time its attacked with Robilar's Gambit, and you'll even get its Fast Healing. All of a War Troll's special qualities are extraordinary, so that should be your primary form when you're not being a hydra. Your Nature's Warrior abilities should be Nature's Weapons, Water's Flow, and Serpent's Coils in that order. With your 5th Warshaper level you'll be able to Wild Shape into something, equip your gear, and then switch your forms without having to re-equip your gear again. For items be sure to get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might (MIC), Gloves of Dex, an Amulet of Mighty Fists until Nature's Warrior 1, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to be used with Rhino's Rush. From level 1 you'll be able to use wands of Ranger spells, so a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal up between encounters will be a good investment. You'll want to prioritize Constitution and Wisdom, put Strength and Dex at 14 if you can, and Int and Cha don't really matter. This character will be a much better melee combatant than anything but a martial adept, and will have survivability on par with spellcasters of equal level.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-01, 03:27 PM
What about the Moon-Warded Ranger on Crystal Keep? The level 11 ability for that looks much stronger then any of the feats you could get. (I never liked Strongarm due to how easily a Ranger with descent Str can get what it gives). In regards to TWF, I'd say that using weapons which deal 2 different kinds of damage, like a Scimitar and a Shortsword with a Warhammer in reserve) would be wise due to DR possibly being a problem.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 06:53 PM
Was two weapon style your first choice, or did you pick it because it was that or archery style? The benefits granted by Tempest are negligible by level 20, and it ends up being five wasted levels assuming you survive to 30. I'd suggest going with the Strong-Arm (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) combat style to get Power Attack at 2, Improved Sunder at 6, and Great Cleave at 11 and use a two-handed weapon with Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer and the spell Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium.

An even better option would be to use the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant from Unearthed Arcana, and take Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer, and Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior. I'd go Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3 in that order, then get Nature's Warrior +2/ Master of Many Forms +2/ Warshaper +2/ Nature's Warrior +2, and then either take more Master of Many Forms or more Ranger, maybe dip one level of Monk if you don't want to be entirely dependent on a Monk's Belt for your AC. Go Human and get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), Robilar's Gambit (PH2), any feat at 15, and Defensive Sweep (PH2) at 18. Use a Glaive until you get a decent combat form, Cave Troll (MM3) should last until you get War Troll (MM3), and Frozen Wild Shape will also give you access to Cryohydra once you get access to Huge forms. A 12-headed Cryohydra gets a 12-bite AoO every time its attacked with Robilar's Gambit, and you'll even get its Fast Healing. All of a War Troll's special qualities are extraordinary, so that should be your primary form when you're not being a hydra. Your Nature's Warrior abilities should be Nature's Weapons, Water's Flow, and Serpent's Coils in that order. With your 5th Warshaper level you'll be able to Wild Shape into something, equip your gear, and then switch your forms without having to re-equip your gear again. For items be sure to get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might (MIC), Gloves of Dex, an Amulet of Mighty Fists until Nature's Warrior 1, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to be used with Rhino's Rush. From level 1 you'll be able to use wands of Ranger spells, so a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal up between encounters will be a good investment. You'll want to prioritize Constitution and Wisdom, put Strength and Dex at 14 if you can, and Int and Cha don't really matter. This character will be a much better melee combatant than anything but a martial adept, and will have survivability on par with spellcasters of equal level.

FROZEN WILD SHAPE [GENERAL]
You can assume the form of magical beasts with the cold
subtype.
Prerequisite: Base Fortitude save bonus +6, wild shape
ability.
Benefi t: You may use your wild shape ability to assume
the form of any magical beast with the cold subtype. Your
new form must still fall within the size limitations of your
wild shape ability. As with the standard wild shape ability,
you do not gain any of the extraordinary special qualities or
any supernatural abilities possessed by the new form, with
the exception of the cold subtype. This subtype grants you
immunity to cold but vulnerability to fi re, which means you
take half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fi re
while in a frozen wild shape, regardless of whether a saving
throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.
Possible cold magical beasts from the Monster Manual
include cryohydras (Huge wild shape required), frost worms
(Huge wild shape required), and winter wolves.
Possible cold magical beasts from Monster Manual II
include frost salamanders.
Possible cold magical beasts from this book include brantas
(Large wild shape required), ice toads (Large wild shape
required), urskans (Large wild shape required), and tlalusks
(Huge wild shape required).

With those restictions on the cryohydra (no breathe weapon, no fast healing, etc.) whats the purpose of taking the frozen wildshape feat?

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 07:26 PM
MoMF7 gives you all of the EX abilities of anything you WS into. It also gives you the ability to WS into Huge things, which is also required to become a Cryohydra.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 07:30 PM
Oh yea, what i mention at the top of the forum page is what i am currently at
Ranger 5

Feats:
Human feat: Able Learner
1st: Dodge
2nd: 2 weapon fighting
3rd: endurance
3rd: Mobility

Equipment: MSTW Rapier (soon to be scimitar), Mithral Chain Shirt, +1Buckler, MSTW kukri, MSTW composite longbow (+4 STR)

Stats:
STR 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 15
Wis 16
Cha 15

If the above helps get me advice go ahead and comment on how i can make him better thanks again for the help.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 07:37 PM
MoMF7 gives you all of the EX abilities of anything you WS into. It also gives you the ability to WS into Huge things, which is also required to become a Cryohydra.

Thank you for clarifying. Thats not a bad idea for a tank

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-01, 08:11 PM
Note that you would get the Hydra's unique use of Combat Reflexes by Wild Shaping into one. It can use all of its heads on attacks of opportunity, i.e. you make one bite per head on every AoO. Robilar's Gambit helps with that, and Morphic Reach can catch them by surprise. Also note that a Hydra gets to make all of its bites as a single standard action attack and also at the end of a charge, in addition to on an AoO. This would lead to the conclusion that a Hydra gets to make all of its bites every time it gets an attack, therefore, a Hydra using Whirlwind Attack would get to make all of its bites against each opponent within reach. If you can qualify for and take the Rapidstrike line of feats from the Draconomicon you could get multiple 12-bite attacks/round, or get Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from the PH2 to make several 12-bite attacks as part of a Spring Attack. Remember that Fast Movement from Wild Shape Ranger doesn't go away when you Wild Shape, so every form gets +10 ft. base land speed. You could even dip a few Fighter levels to get the appropriate feats to do all of that in the epic levels, though I wouldn't want to delay the first 16 levels of the build at all.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 10:50 PM
Okay. I'll try that build if i die but i am stuck with what i posted above. I could use help with that build above. I am at 6th level with the following:

LVL 6 Ranger
Feats:
1st: Dodge
Human: Able Learner
2nd: Two Weapon fighting
3rd: Mobility
3rd: Endurance
6th: Spring Attack
6th: Imp. Two weapon fighting

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Next 5 Levels will be 5th Tempest which does the following
+3 AC if holding two weapons (aka two weapon fighting)
-2/+0 if fighting with two weapons (2 one handed/ 1 one handed 1 light)
Share feats for the following: Weapon focus, Improved Critical*, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
When making a spring attack get to attack with both weapons as standard action

The feats for these levels are
9th Improved Critical (scimitar)

The next 10 lvls are Dervish
Dont know what feats to take here? Help here would be appreciated
Maybe some of the feats you guyz have suggested bounding assualt etc.

The next 4 lvls are scout to help with the DMG output and AC
That brings me up to lvl 25, I still need five more levels to help with the build. Any advice would be appreciated and the people who have posted thank you and if my DM lets me I will take that wild shape build instead of this one. Thanks again for your guy's help.

Os1ris09
2009-03-01, 10:59 PM
Okay. I'll try that build if i die but i am stuck with what i posted above. I could use help with that build above. I am at 6th level with the following:

LVL 6 Ranger
Feats:
1st: Dodge
Human: Able Learner
2nd: Two Weapon fighting
3rd: Mobility
3rd: Endurance
6th: Spring Attack
6th: Imp. Two weapon fighting

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Next 5 Levels will be 5th Tempest which does the following
+3 AC if holding two weapons (aka two weapon fighting)
-2/+0 if fighting with two weapons (2 one handed/ 1 one handed 1 light)
Share feats for the following: Weapon focus, Improved Critical*, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
When making a spring attack get to attack with both weapons as standard action

The feats for these levels are
9th Improved Critical (scimitar)

The next 10 lvls are Dervish
Dont know what feats to take here? Help here would be appreciated
Maybe some of the feats you guyz have suggested bounding assualt etc.

The next 4 lvls are scout to help with the DMG output and AC
That brings me up to lvl 25, I still need five more levels to help with the build. Any advice would be appreciated and the people who have posted thank you and if my DM lets me I will take that wild shape build instead of this one. Thanks again for your guy's help.

Sorry switch the Scout and Dervish Lvls forgot that i needed Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus (scimitar)

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 12:11 AM
Also does any one know the name of the feat that allows you to stack your Ranger and Scout levels together for stuff. If the feat exists can you please tell where to find it (with out abbreviating it please) thank you. If you could also would it be better to do this instead:

6 LVL Ranger/10LVL Dervish/4 LVL Scout:
with this feat progression:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20) (2nd Dervish)
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Swift hunter (11th dervish) lol found it never mind above
23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (13th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (14th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th no idea on what to take

Or i can do this template for feats:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20) (2nd Dervish)
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Two Weapon Defense (1st Fighter bonus feat)
21st: Swift hunter (1st Fighter) lol found it never mind above
22nd: Improved Two Weapon Defense (2nd Fighter Bonus Feat)
23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (11th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (12th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th again out of ideas

Please let me know what you think and make suggestions. Thanks again for all your help.

Flickerdart
2009-03-02, 12:19 AM
Also does any one know the name of the feat that allows you to stack your Ranger and Scout levels together for stuff. If the feat exists can you please tell where to find it (with out abbreviating it please) thank you
Swift Hunter. Not sure where it's from.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-02, 12:20 AM
It's called Swift Hunter, in Complete Scoundrel.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-02, 12:23 AM
Swift hunter, from the Complete Scoundrel. Requires 1 Ranger level and...3 Scout levels at the least(not sure about that, you might need 4).

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 12:41 AM
Also does any one know the name of the feat that allows you to stack your Ranger and Scout levels together for stuff. If the feat exists can you please tell where to find it (with out abbreviating it please) thank you. If you could also would it be better to do this instead:

6 LVL Ranger/10LVL Dervish/4 LVL Scout:
with this feat progression:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Swift hunter (2nd Dervish)lol found it never mind above
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(11th dervish) 23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (13th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (14th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th no idea on what to take

Or i can do this template for feats:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Swift hunter (2nd Dervish) lol found it never mind above
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Two Weapon Defense (1st Fighter bonus feat)
21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(1st Fighter)
22nd: Improved Two Weapon Defense (2nd Fighter Bonus Feat)
23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (11th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (12th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th again out of ideas

Please let me know what you think and make suggestions. Thanks again for all your help.

Edited text from above thanks for helping me find the feat though

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 01:55 AM
Was two weapon style your first choice, or did you pick it because it was that or archery style? The benefits granted by Tempest are negligible by level 20, and it ends up being five wasted levels assuming you survive to 30. I'd suggest going with the Strong-Arm (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) combat style to get Power Attack at 2, Improved Sunder at 6, and Great Cleave at 11 and use a two-handed weapon with Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer and the spell Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium.

An even better option would be to use the Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant from Unearthed Arcana, and take Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer, and Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior. I'd go Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3 in that order, then get Nature's Warrior +2/ Master of Many Forms +2/ Warshaper +2/ Nature's Warrior +2, and then either take more Master of Many Forms or more Ranger, maybe dip one level of Monk if you don't want to be entirely dependent on a Monk's Belt for your AC. Go Human and get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), Robilar's Gambit (PH2), any feat at 15, and Defensive Sweep (PH2) at 18. Use a Glaive until you get a decent combat form, Cave Troll (MM3) should last until you get War Troll (MM3), and Frozen Wild Shape will also give you access to Cryohydra once you get access to Huge forms. A 12-headed Cryohydra gets a 12-bite AoO every time its attacked with Robilar's Gambit, and you'll even get its Fast Healing. All of a War Troll's special qualities are extraordinary, so that should be your primary form when you're not being a hydra. Your Nature's Warrior abilities should be Nature's Weapons, Water's Flow, and Serpent's Coils in that order. With your 5th Warshaper level you'll be able to Wild Shape into something, equip your gear, and then switch your forms without having to re-equip your gear again. For items be sure to get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might (MIC), Gloves of Dex, an Amulet of Mighty Fists until Nature's Warrior 1, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to be used with Rhino's Rush. From level 1 you'll be able to use wands of Ranger spells, so a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal up between encounters will be a good investment. You'll want to prioritize Constitution and Wisdom, put Strength and Dex at 14 if you can, and Int and Cha don't really matter. This character will be a much better melee combatant than anything but a martial adept, and will have survivability on par with spellcasters of equal level.

Just curios can you explain to me how the warshaper ability at lvl 5 lets you do the equipment thing you say up there? Also why a monks belt i dont understand that either. If you wouldnt mind explaining I would appreciate it. Thanks:smallsmile:

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 09:58 AM
Okay. I'll try that build if i die but i am stuck with what i posted above. I could use help with that build above. I am at 6th level with the following:

LVL 6 Ranger
Feats:
1st: Dodge
Human: Able Learner
2nd: Two Weapon fighting
3rd: Mobility
3rd: Endurance
6th: Spring Attack
6th: Imp. Two weapon fighting

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

Next 5 Levels will be 5th Tempest which does the following
+3 AC if holding two weapons (aka two weapon fighting)
-2/+0 if fighting with two weapons (2 one handed/ 1 one handed 1 light)
Share feats for the following: Weapon focus, Improved Critical*, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
When making a spring attack get to attack with both weapons as standard action

The feats for these levels are
9th Improved Critical (scimitar)

The next 10 lvls are Dervish
Dont know what feats to take here? Help here would be appreciated
Maybe some of the feats you guyz have suggested bounding assualt etc.

The next 4 lvls are scout to help with the DMG output and AC
That brings me up to lvl 25, I still need five more levels to help with the build. Any advice would be appreciated and the people who have posted thank you and if my DM lets me I will take that wild shape build instead of this one. Thanks again for your guy's help.

Here is what my character currently is in our campaign and some ideas. Help would be appreciated thank you

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 10:00 AM
Edited text from above thanks for helping me find the feat though

Also here is another template i thought would do the trick. Please comment and help me here because our party is devoid of a fightere and well that job now falls on me (lol). Thank you for all the advice you have given so far and for what is to come

If you could also would it be better to do this instead:

6 LVL Ranger/10LVL Dervish/4 LVL Scout:
with this feat progression:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Swift hunter (2nd Dervish)lol found it never mind above
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(11th dervish) 23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (13th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (14th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th no idea on what to take

Or i can do this template for feats:
1st Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
2nd: Two Weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
3rd: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
6th: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon focus Scimitar (6th Ranger)
9th: Improved Critical Scimitar (3rd Scout)
10th: Combat Expertise (4th Scout)
12th: Swift hunter (2nd Dervish) lol found it never mind above
13th: Spring Attack (bonus Feat)
15th: Bounding assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Two Weapon Defense (1st Fighter bonus feat)
21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(1st Fighter)
22nd: Improved Two Weapon Defense (2nd Fighter Bonus Feat)
23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (11th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (12th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th again out of ideas

Please let me know what you think and make suggestions. Thanks again for all your help.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-02, 10:12 AM
Could be useful Staggering Critical from Drow of the Underdark? Slows, no save, any enemy you hit and crit with any weapon you have the improved critical feat.

I think that can be useful to avoid a retailatory epic full attack, or, with a little bit of luck, you could do great things with Rapid Blitz...

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 03:57 PM
Okay I'll take a look at that feat. Thanks for the advice.

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 03:59 PM
An even better option would be to use the Wild Shape Ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana, and take Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer, and Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior. I'd go Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3 in that order, then get Nature's Warrior +2/ Master of Many Forms +2/ Warshaper +2/ Nature's Warrior +2, and then either take more Master of Many Forms or more Ranger, maybe dip one level of Monk if you don't want to be entirely dependent on a Monk's Belt for your AC. Go Human and get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn), Robilar's Gambit (PH2), any feat at 15, and Defensive Sweep (PH2) at 18. Use a Glaive until you get a decent combat form, Cave Troll (MM3) should last until you get War Troll (MM3), and Frozen Wild Shape will also give you access to Cryohydra once you get access to Huge forms. A 12-headed Cryohydra gets a 12-bite AoO every time its attacked with Robilar's Gambit, and you'll even get its Fast Healing. All of a War Troll's special qualities are extraordinary, so that should be your primary form when you're not being a hydra. Your Nature's Warrior abilities should be Nature's Weapons, Water's Flow, and Serpent's Coils in that order. With your 5th Warshaper level you'll be able to Wild Shape into something, equip your gear, and then switch your forms without having to re-equip your gear again. For items be sure to get a Monk's Belt, Armbands of Might (MIC), Gloves of Dex, an Amulet of Mighty Fists until Nature's Warrior 1, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to be used with Rhino's Rush. From level 1 you'll be able to use wands of Ranger spells, so a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal up between encounters will be a good investment. You'll want to prioritize Constitution and Wisdom, put Strength and Dex at 14 if you can, and Int and Cha don't really matter. This character will be a much better melee combatant than anything but a martial adept, and will have survivability on par with spellcasters of equal level.

Just curios can you explain to me how the warshaper ability at lvl 5 lets you do the equipment thing you say up there? Also why a monks belt i dont understand that either. If you wouldnt mind explaining I would appreciate it. Thanks

Os1ris09
2009-03-02, 09:38 PM
So what I currently have on paper but not officially final is below:

Lvl 6 Ranger/ Lvl 5 Scout/ Lvl 10 Dervish

1st: Dodge (1st Ranger)
Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
BF: Two weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
BF: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
BF: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9th: Combat Expertise (3rd Scout)
10th: Swift Hunter (4th Scout)
12th: Improved Critical (Scimitar) (2nd Dervish)
13th: Spring Attack (3rd Dervish)
15th: bounding Assualt (5th Dervish)
18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)
21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(11th dervish) 23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (13th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (14th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th no idea on what to take

Focus on Str, Dex, and Con all already at 18.

Any comments or help would be appreciated thanks guys for all the help

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 05:46 AM
So what I currently have on paper but not officially final is below:

Lvl 6 Ranger/ Lvl 5 Scout/ Lvl 10 Dervish

Do take the 5th Scout-level on level 21. That'll save you a point of BAB. Let's look at your feat construction:


1st: Dodge (1st Ranger)

Take Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild instead. This allows you to gain +2 Dodge to AC when you move 40' or more (which is always for you).


Human: Able Learner (1st Ranger)
BF: Two weapon Fighting (2nd Ranger)
BF: Endurance (3rd Ranger)
3rd: Mobility (3rd Ranger)
BF: Improved Two Weapon fighting (6th Ranger)
6th: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
9th: Combat Expertise (3rd Scout)
10th: Swift Hunter (4th Scout)
12th: Improved Critical (Scimitar) (2nd Dervish)

I wouldn't bother with this; Scabbard of Keen Edges is cheap enough. Instead, take Deadly Defense [Complete Scoundrel] to make more use out of your defensive combat skills and for additional extra damage.


13th: Spring Attack (3rd Dervish)
15th: bounding Assualt (5th Dervish)

This seems pointless; you can dance almost always anyways so this is mostly a wasted feat, as it's only useful when you're Spring Attacking (which should never be necessary. Instead, take Improved Skirmish [Complete Scoundrel] at this point.


18th: Acrobatic Strike? to help offset two weapon fighting and bounding assualt penalties (8th Dervish)

You could already take this earlier. It's a wonderful feat for a Dervish, effectively granting you constant +4 to all attacks. Even better if you can talk Power Attack for your character though.


21st: Improved crit (another weapon with 18-20)(11th dervish)
23rd: Oversized two weapon fighting (13th dervish) incase of DR monsters
24th: Two weapon Rend (14th Dervish)
26th, 27th, 29th, and 30th no idea on what to take

No no no no no, none of this. You have solid feats left, don't take crappy ones for no reason. First of all, you will pick Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and you will like it. Cram it in there somewhere. If going two weapon fighting, might as well go all the way. The combination of Dervish Dance & Acrobatic Strike already means your iteratives will be at vast bonuses (+9, anyone?).

Feats you should be looking at:
-Elusive Target [CWar]: You already fulfill the prerequisites. This gives you some use out of them.
-Improved Trip [PHB]: You fulfill the prerequisites and since your build is Strength-focused, this could be very useful indeed.
-Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery [PHBII]: If you could somehow acquire Weapon Specialization, this line would give you nice bonuses.
-Steadfast Determination [PHBII]: Since you already have Endurance you qualify; this would increase your Will-saves vastly.
-Combat Reflexes+Double Hit+Robilar's Gambit [PHBII]: Make some good out of that vast AC of yours. Hit people upside the head twice every time they hit you once. Since you already qualify, also consider Karmic Strike [CWar], although its utility is reduced by the fact that you need to be hit for it to activate.
-Mage Slayer [CArc]+Blind-Fight [PHB]+Pierce Magical Concealment [CArc]: It's an epic game at this point. Let's face it, you better see through those illusions. Of course, if you can get Spot to +79, this will be unnecessary. I'd look towards that as you're tight on feats. Mage Slayer is probably worth it still though.
-Weapon Focus: Generic Axe > High Sword Low Axe [CWar]: Use Scimitar in your offhand with Generic Axe (Dwarven War Axe, Battleaxe, Handaxe, suit yourself) in your primary hand and whenever you hit with both, you get a free Trip-attempt which in turn results in a free extra attack and a lot of tripped opponents. A great weapon style feat.

This is just to drive home the point that you won't run out of good feats to take. You'll run out of feat slots. Also, epic martial feats suck. Don't bother with them.

EDIT: Uhh, and talk to your DM about combining the Two-Weapon Fighting chain into one feat. It really sucks to have to burn 3 feats on something that's still worse than Power Attack.


EDIT#2: Oh yeah, alternative class features: On level 4, you can trade your Ranger Spellcasting (and unfortunately, you also lose the ability to use Wands of Ranger Spells without UMD) for a bonus feat (or on level 6 for extra speed, but you need the feat more). The "Champion of the Wilds" is in Complete Champion and the "Spelless Ranger" is in Complete Warrior. Champion is the one that grants a feat.


You can also trade your animal companion to make all targets you hit be considered Flanked for your allies until end of turn; can be extremely handy, while your animal companion is going to be totally useless (you could just befriend an animal with no class features thanks to Wild Empathy & Handle Animal...) due to it being a Ranger Animal Companion (which suck even for straight Rangers; Druid level = useless) & lacking level-ups. This is in Player's Handbook II.

Dragon Magazine has an interesting ability that adds your Favored Enemy Bonus to attack rolls called "Solitary Hunter", but as it's Dragon Magazine, it might not fly.


Oh yeah, and do consider Darkstalker feat; without it, your Hide/Move Silently are mostly useless on high levels.

Os1ris09
2009-03-03, 04:09 PM
Hey Eldariel thanks for the advice. I already printed it and am talking to my DM about some of the stuff you suggested and he agrees to most of it. So thanks guys for your help and I think I reached my final build but if any one has comments he or she wants to add or recommend I am still up for those and would appreciate your opinion. thanks again guys and I am glad i joined these forums