Additional uses for sunder.

[krossbow]

In my campaing, i've been experimenting in various ways to make sunder a more useful tactic in battle, by allowing it to be used more often on monsters. Its been working out pretty well so far, and has given the melee guys more ways to hamper their foes, but i'd like to know if any of you guys have any suggestions on this.



So far, i've told them with a houserule that you can attempt to "sunder" a foes Horn if it has one, or one of its limbs.

For a Horn, its just like sundering a weapon; if the opponent's horn is sundered its destroyed as if it were a weapon, though larger opponents can still make a slam attack with their head at a -4 chance to hit and damage in lieu of a horn.

For a limb, you as a standard action make a single attack against the foe's limb with a -4 to hit; if you either critical, or deal 25% of their HP in damage, The limb is destroyed to the point of uselessness (not neccesarily sliced clean, just smashed to a pulp or left hanging). The opponent loses usage of that limb, and takes a -2 to contitution, bleeding for 2d6 damage per round until they succeed on a dc 18 fortitude save or are healed.
failing to deal enough damage just results in normal HP damage.

Opponents with fast healing or regeneration will regrow/heal their horns or limbs in the same time as it takes to regrow a severed limb.

[The Mentalist]

I can see monks getting very upset if the DM sends sundering mobs at them.

It would probably be a good idea to make it healable

[Harperfan7]

I really like this idea. But I think the DC 18 should be DC 10 + whatever instead of a set DC. What made you say 2d6 damage per round? Also, should this be fixable with a heal check?

[krossbow]

I figured the DC should be variable, but i wasn't able to set upon a good way to scale the DC. I was considering 10+STR+1/2 the character's hit die, but i wasn't sure if using the same method as Breath DC was correct.

Yeah, a heal check should also work; a dc15 heal check, as if stabilizing a dying character, would halt the bleeding; i had put down the other options just because they'd be more likely for an adventuring party to have at their disposal.
I will admit however, the 2d6 damage a round was arbitrary; i was looking for a amount that i viewed as a semi-threatening amount to be taking for a mid level party.

i don't think the monk would be any more screwed than say a fighter or barbarian; they'd be similiarly harmed if they were unable to use one of their arms, and the destruction of their weapon would also carry debilitation.



For healing it, about how would you suggest it should be healed; about 25% of their HP, or just healing in general?

[Harperfan7]

For the DC, I think 10 + 1/2 Bab + Str Mod would be just fine, but size modifiers should affect the fortitude save, so a large creature would get +1 on his save, and a tiny creature would get -2.

For healing, an instantaneous heal check to stop the bleeding, and either a long term heal check (of the same DC as the Fort save) to repair the whatever, or a restoration (greater?) spell.

A few things you might want to address...
-Are held items dropped when the limb is sundered?
-Are shields still effective after the shield arm is sundered?
-A heal check wouldn't reattach a severed limb, so should a slashing weapon sever the limb or just incapacitate it? Maybe a vorpal weapon severs a limb when used to sunder? Maybe if you do, say, 50% instead of 25% (or a crit and 25%) the limb is severed in addition to incapacitated.
-What are the effects of having a leg sundered?
-Can you sunder a head? If so, what goodness is bestowed?:smallsmile:
(it should be harder to sunder a head if you do allow it)
-Does having a sundered arm hamper spellcasters? If so, how?

[krossbow]

.
-Are held items dropped when the limb is sundered?


Yeah, i always ruled that any items in their hands would be dropped if the limb was sundered



-Are shields still effective after the shield arm is sundered?


no, i ruled that a shield would be dropped as well if the arm was sundered



-A heal check wouldn't reattach a severed limb, so should a slashing weapon sever the limb or just incapacitate it? Maybe a vorpal weapon severs a limb when used to sunder? Maybe if you do, say, 50% instead of 25% (or a crit and 25%) the limb is severed in addition to incapacitated.

Well usually i wasn't saying that he limb was severed; i was more thinking fallout 3 "crippled" type situation, where the limb is badly mangled, but not neccecarily taken off. Such as that the nerves would be severed, but the arm would still be attached (as when people slit their wrists)

Yeah, if someone did 50% of their hp though i do think that it would be definitely taken off, and that would make a nice addition.



-What are the effects of having a leg sundered?


I had ruled once when an individual did this that if the opponent has 2 legs, they fall prone, but if the individual has four legs, such as when they were fighting a hydra, that its movement was reduced to 1/2 of what it normally was, and are unable to charge or run.





-Can you sunder a head? If so, what goodness is bestowed?:smallsmile:
(it should be harder to sunder a head if you do allow it)





Haha, yeah. I hadn't ruled you could try to sunder a head because that's basically a coup de grace

However, i was thinking of saying that if you tried to sunder a head and did 50% of their HP, you'd have decapitated them; something of a variant of the massive damage ruling, where you have to save after that much damage (except in this situation, no save).

However, i was trying to avoid making sundering too complicated; not wanting to make it its own subset yeah? then again, as long as the DM is the only one who's having to worry about it, i guess it shouldn't slow things down.



-Does having a sundered arm hamper spellcasters? If so, how?


I'd ruled that having a sundered arm would give you a 50% chance of spell failure.




Your thoughts on that? While worrying about fighters at high levels isn't something i'm expecting (:smalltongue:) i still want to make sure sundering isn't the end all tactic in combat.

[Pyrusticia]

i don't think the monk would be any more screwed than say a fighter or barbarian; they'd be similiarly harmed if they were unable to use one of their arms, and the destruction of their weapon would also carry debilitation.

Hmm, I'd have to disagree here. A good fighter carries backup weapons. A monk doesn't have that luxury. After the first sunder he's automatically lost one of his core abilities (Flurry of Blows), and can't recover it until after the encounter. If there are two sunders, the monk is effectively helpless, unless the DM allows for kicking-style martial arts.

Not saying that this shouldn't be allowed, since it does sound like an interesting idea. Just don't underestimate the impact it has on those who fight unarmed.

[krossbow]

Hmm, I'd have to disagree here. A good fighter carries backup weapons. A monk doesn't have that luxury. After the first sunder he's automatically lost one of his core abilities (Flurry of Blows), and can't recover it until after the encounter. If there are two sunders, the monk is effectively helpless, unless the DM allows for kicking-style martial arts.

Not saying that this shouldn't be allowed, since it does sound like an interesting idea. Just don't underestimate the impact it has on those who fight unarmed.




Ah, but you see it WOULDN'T disable them; unarmed strikes are defined as coming from any part of the body according to the Weapon description. The Monk description even states that it can be headbutts, kicks, elbows, you name it. A monk with a Broken Arm can simply begin kickboxing instead, or use his head for his offhand attack.
Unless the DM is specifically trying to limit a player, the PHB already allows for and included kickboxing martial arts.




However, thinking about it, a sundered leg takes a PC out of the fight most of the time, so that's something that i'm worried about now that i think about it.

[Harperfan7]

To avoid this becoming too good, I would rule that you have to have Improved Sunder to sunder a body part and you don't get the +4 bonus when you do. Also, like in fallout, body parts should be harder to hit than the body itself, like maybe 4 ac harder - 8 for the head?

[krossbow]

To avoid this becoming too good, I would rule that you have to have Improved Sunder to sunder a body part and you don't get the +4 bonus when you do. Also, like in fallout, body parts should be harder to hit than the body itself, like maybe 4 ac harder - 8 for the head?



Agreed; I think i might have a idea of how it might work best. A -8 penalty for limbs (reduced down to -4 with the feat improved sunder) would make it difficult to pull off, and something only for heavy melee characters.

It'd still be difficult to actually manage to "sunder" the arm or leg with this, as they'd have to deal 25% of the enemie's HP in one blow, not an easy task, especially since the -4 would limit the ability to power attack.

[Harperfan7]

Yeah, I'm definetly house ruling this.

[Hawriel]

I like your idea. Your basicly using the sunder rules for called shots with a chance for grievous damage. It is a good use of the rules.

As other have said a heal check should stablize the 2d6 damage from a severed limb. I dont see the bleeding damage as a problem. Its makes for a more brutal and real fight. After all there are large arteries in the limbs. A cure serious wounds spell should be needed or high heal check. Maybe 10 + 1/2 damage taken for the heal DC.

Armor and Shields.

If the person being sundered is hit on the shield arm the shield should protect the arm from damage wile being destroyed. Armor should give a bonus with its AC or hardness to the fort save. After all armor and shields are made to prevent having your arm chopped off.

You might want to consider rasing the to hit penalty for head shots. After all thats a potential one shot kill.

[Xapi]

My two cents:

1 - The bleeding damage should be 1d6 for arms, 2d6/round for legs, insta-kill for heads (with different to-hit penalties for each -at least for the head, but arms could have a lower penalty (even none) with something like what I propose next-). I think that making the head sunder (much) harder to hit is more realistic than requiring more points of damage.

2 - There should be a penalty for attempting to sunder an arm wich is holding a shield or melee weapon.

My thoughts would be:
Tower Shield: Impossible
Heavy Shield: 75% deflection chance
Small Shield: 50% deflection chance
Buckler/Melee weapon: 25% deflection chance