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DarthArminius
2009-03-04, 08:57 PM
Assuming Naraku somehow, through political manipulation, unites all of the three way hybrid world of Naruto/Inuyasha, and Avatar and decides to go conquering worlds of other fictions... which ones could he go after that =

1) curb stomp the world
2) his world curbstomps
3) would be an equal or near equal war

Instead of Japan, Inuyasha's world is known as "Zipangu" and I don't know much about Naruto other than the powers and the superhuman abilities there, so lets say "Zipangu" just doubles in size if they share the same island.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-03-05, 12:04 AM
Assuming Naraku somehow, through political manipulation, unites all of the three way hybrid world of Naruto/Inuyasha, and Avatar and decides to go conquering worlds... which ones could he go after that =

1) curb stomp the world
2) his world curbstomps
3) would be an equal or near equal war

Instead of Japan, Inuyasha's world is known as "Zipangu" and I don't know much about Naruto other than the powers and the superhuman abilities there, so lets say "Zipangu" just doubles in size if they share the same island.

So...a 'not quite shonen but close as hell' anime/manga vs. a shonen manga/anime vs Not even close to a shonen manga but has cool martial arts nonetheless and is really neat?

What are you asking in the first place? Which worlds Naraku can beat or not?

Nerd-o-rama
2009-03-05, 12:07 AM
And here I thought that Naruto was just Avatar filler seasons...

(Kidding)

DarthArminius
2009-03-05, 12:08 AM
So...a 'not quite shonen but close as hell' anime/manga vs. a shonen manga/anime vs Not even close to a shonen manga but has cool martial arts nonetheless and is really neat?

What are you asking in the first place? Which worlds Naraku can beat or not?

What if Naraku could unite all three worlds to conquer more worlds?

Verruckt
2009-03-05, 01:00 AM
What if Naraku could unite all three worlds to conquer more worlds?

Firstly, read the rules for posting versus threads, I think you broke all of them.

Secondly, The Culture.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-03-05, 02:31 AM
What if Naraku could unite all three worlds to conquer more worlds?

He wouldn't. Azula and Fire Lord Ozai (At the very least) would dispute and subvert his rule and I know for a fact he couldn't convince half the people in Naruto to follow him. More importantly, if by some miracle he did, it'd depend on the world and the circumstances.

WitchSlayer
2009-03-05, 06:22 AM
One of these things is not like the other... One of these things just doesn't belong. Anywho, Either of the Big Two superhero universes would probably curb stomp the hybrid universe, hell, Karate Kid from the Legion of Superheroes alone could take out about half.

Obrysii
2009-03-09, 09:00 AM
Well, I don't know much about Avatar, but in my boredom I have considered an Inuyasha universe vs. Naruto universe.

The power levels are surprisingly similar - Inuyasha would be a high Jounin / low kage-level being; Sesshoumaru would be a kage-level threat, to be sure, and someone like Naraku would in all likelihood be something even Pein, the Akatsuki Leader, would have issue dealing with.

Potential fights (warning: naruto spoilers):

Inuyasha vs. Naruto. The expected match - the hyperactive kid vs the world-weary dog-demon. Naruto's shadow clones would easily be dispelled with the tetsaiga's wind scar technique, and Inuyasha would take damage, but not be killed, by Rasengan. The ultimate battle would come down to kyuubi-powered naruto (4 tails?) vs. Inuyasha, who would win by using the backlash wave against the "kyuubi cannon" ...turning its immense youkai / chakra against itself.

Sesshoumaru vs. Orochimaru. An interesting encounter, as their relative power-levels in-series are relatively comperable; the tensaiga can defeat the edo tensei move but beyond that, Orochimaru's sheer power to survive surpasses Sesshoumaru's and the fight really comes down to who outlasts who, and in the end I think it'd be a stalemate.

Naraku vs. Pein. The main villian vs. the current top dog monster. Naraku's barrier proves to be the most important obstacle for Pein, but since he possesses the Rinne'gan, it is possible there is a weakness he can exploit. If there is one, I suspect his chakra rods are the key to it: by striking the barrier, he can attempt to disrupt Naraku's youkai / chakra. If it works, the barrier drops and Naraku becomes vulnerable to Banshou Tenin and Shinra Tensei. If Hungry Ghost Pein can grab hold of Naraku and stay "alive" ... then it's over. He'll drain Naraku's considerable youkai stores. Hell Realm and Human Realm can both drain souls, and therefore potentially steal away the accumulated demonic powers of Naraku. Animal Realm can keep him busy with the various summons. Ultimately: if Pein can break Naraku's barrier, he wins; if the barrier proves unsunderable, I am uncertain what would happen.

Kreistor
2009-03-09, 02:34 PM
Were any cross-universe events occur, it is unlikely the authors would allow any conclusion except a draw. So let's get that out of the way first.

The three universes all deal with power in different ways. Let's break those down first.

Inuyasha's Japan
Inuyasha's world comes down to techniques. The inhabitants know how to perform specific moves with specific results. There is little flexibility to this style. The battles come down to the participants maneuvering until their powerful technique succeeds. Power can come from different sources, usually demonic or spiritual/holy. Elemental special effects are relatively unimportant. Inuyasha's Wind Scar is an air attack we presume, but it is no more powerful against a Fire attack or Earth attack. Weapons are very important in this world, as they focus many of the techinques. Without them, the participants are relatively ineffective.

Naruto's World
Ninja powers in Naruto's world breaks down to three styles -- Taijitsu (hand-to-hand combat), Ninjitsu (chakra powered techinues with physical results), and Genjitsu (chakra powered techniques with mental results). Individuals are usually specialized in only one of the three, sometimes two, but so far none are powerful in all three. All of these techniques base their power on either chakra control and/or elemental manipulation. Chakra control results in elemental-less techniques (such as Naruto's ninjitsu Rasengan... most genjitsu are control only). Elemental maniplation results in elemental special effects, like Sasuke's Chidori (a lightning element attack commensurate in power to Rasengan). Both can be combined to greater effect: Naruto adds Wind manipulation to Rasengan to create Wind Shuriken, a technique many times more destructive. The chosen Element is important, since there is a rock-paper-scissors to the five elements. Each element is amplified by another. Fire is amplified by wind, which is amplified by electricity, which is amplified by earth, which is amplified by water, which is amplified by fire. So, if you use fire, you want to fight wind users, but not water users, since your fire makes a water tehnique used against you more powerful instead of blocking it, while a wind user can't block your fire with wind. Normally, no individual can use more than two elements, but the author breaks this rule periodically. Chakra is a limited pool of energy, so as the fight progresses, the Ninja will eventually be unable to use anything except Taijitsu (which requires no Chakra). Weapons only decide which styles are available to the user. Many powerful ninja use no weapons (Gai, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi), while others do (Orochimaru, Sasuke, Asuma). Power in this world is far more flexible than Inuyasha's. Some techniques are fixed in ability, but many are very flexible. Naruto's Shadow Clones allow more than just 50 attackers: they can be used as distractions or defense, allowing other attacks to proceed unnoticed, or preventing attacks from reaching the intended target. Creativity in application of techniques is one of the determinators of who wins.

Aang's World (Avatar)
All power (used by humans anyway) in Aang's world is elemental and physical. There are four elements -- fire, earth, wind, and air. There is no inherent advantage in using any one against another. Power is used through the use of focusing techniques, which are usually martial arts moves; however, the element users tend not to be the best combatants in the world, when they lack their powers. They normally do not strike people with fists or block with forearms: they block with fire, water, air, or earth, even though the form is similar to a non-element user. All element users can attack at range, and so their forms are truly do's (more like dance moves), not jitsu's (techniques intended for real combat). Non-benders have developed effective combat arts, but few benders have the time to learn them as well as bending techniques. (Zuko is one exception, but as a Prince he had more time to spend on such things than a peasant. He learned to be a good weapon user because his bending was weak in the first place, so he needed some advantage other benders might not be prepared for.) The advantage in this world is that there is no limitation to how long a user can manipulate the elements: they never run out of power (though sheer exhaustion can affect them like any other combatant). Elemental control is extremely flexible, even more so than Naruto's world. The abilities are almost telekinetic (resembling Magneto more than Storm), manipulating matter or energy depending on the user's Will, not on a fundamental limitation of a technique. Body motions focus the Will which focus the power, not like Ninjitsu where hand signs initiate the flow of Chakra.

I will draw on two individuals from each world for comparisons. I will use the most recent incarnations of all participants, which means the final versions of those from Inuyasha and Avatar, and the current incarnations of Naruto (though not the six tailed fox, which we don't have power levels for, yet), the only ongoing series of the three. I am allowing Aang his avatar form, though technically he shouldn't be able to use it. Any other Avatar would be able to access it: Aang is simply special in not having access due to injury. This is a plot limitation, not a universe limitation: Aang is less powerful than he could be. Since Aang has Avatar form in the end of the series, I'm going to accept that he can use it from then on, though there is no proof he could turn it back on at will. He may still be damaged and require assistance to achieve that state.

Inuyasha and Naraku
Naruto and Sasuke
Aang and Katara

Inuyasha vs. Naruto
Currently, Naruto is not using his Kyubi form unless emotionally distressed. We are not surrounding these events with plots (like the current Pain arc has done to inspire the six-tail form and thank goodness the Hinata thing is finally changing), so nothing will inspire this change of form. Yes, in Kyubi form, Inuyasha's Backlash Wave completely defeats the demonic energy of the Nine-tails, but nothing in this fight would cause Naruto to turn to the Fox in the first place, knowing he would hurt his friends. So, we have Naruto with Wind Shuriken, Clones, Substitution jitsu, Taijitsu, Rasengan, and knuckleheaded trickery vs. Inuyasha with Meido, Wind Scar, and Adamant Barrage. Backlash Wave is useless on normal Ninjitsu, which does not use demon energy. I have to give the edge to Naruto. Inuyasha can't know which is a clone and which is the real Naruto, unless there is time for him to smell them all, and even then the Shadow Clones are real and should have scents. Naruto has learned how to use his clones to distract, and Inuyasha's not the brightest dog in the pack. Naruto has a lot of staying power, so the Chakra pool limit affects him least of any Ninja. Naruto has faced opponents that can do things like Adamant Barrage (which is far better against clones than Wind Scar), and Wind Scar's unidirectionality is of limited usefulness against Naruto's tendency to surround opponents and attack from all sides. So, I see Inuyasha facing three or four waves of clones, revealing his three powers, then Naruto figures out a distraction, and plants a standard Rasengan in Inuyasha's back, knocking him out of the fight. Inuyasha can't actually beat Naruto's creativity: he always relies on the power of the plot to allow one of his techniques to work. With the power of Naruto's plot to counter Inuyasha's, Naruto's capability to actually create new methods of winning based on the limitations of his opponents (and Inuyasha is very limited) wins him the day. Inuyasha is, really, no better than anyone else Naruto has already defeated without plot elements, but Inuyasha does not face enemies like Naruto. Inuyasha's allies face the Naruto-like enemies. Inuyasha fights straight up, and Naruto is not a straight up fighter.

Inuyasha vs. Sasuke
Sasuke has a harder time with Inuyasha. Inuyasha won't run out of power like his other opponents. But Sasuke wins. Genjitsu. Inuyasha has no familiarity with Sasuke's Genjitsu, and so wouldn't know that he'd already lost. Inuyasha swings and swings, hitting only illusions, and never scratches Sasuke. If Inuyasha had a way out of the Genjitsu, it uses a lot of Chakra, so Sasuke would be in trouble against the limitless energy of Inuyasha. He's got no defense against Meido, so he could find himself exiled to another world. I just don't think Inuyasha should be overcoming the Genjitsu without his allies there to break him out of the effect. Inuyasha faces illusions in his stories, but he doesn't overcome them alone: his allies help him out of them. It is one of his predefined weaknesses. Alone, Inuyasha can't beat Sasuke's Genjitsu, and Sasuke has been opening with it recently, making it his first appropriate attack form.

Inuyasha vs. Aang
Aang doesn't even need Avatar form. Only Fire is ineffective vs. Inuyasha. Aang can simply encase Inuyasha in Earth or Ice, and Inuyasha has no way out. Oh, Inuyasha might break out, but Aang does it over and over again tirelessly. Aang moves too fast for Meido to hit, and he stays at long range to begin with by nature (air style), giving him time to see Inuyasha's attacks coming. Aang simply sinks into the earth to avoid Adamant and Scar, if he doesn't just dodge them outright. The loss is entirely due to the inflexibility of Inuyasha's techniques. Even if hit with Meido, Aang's access to spirit entities may allow him easy escape back to the real universe. Inuyasha, on the other hand, would face a barrage of different techniques and styles that he simply has no familiarity with, at a rate that would keep him off balance and frustrated. Aang just has too many tools to use against Inuyasha, and Inuyasha lacks the variety needed to fight in Aang's universe. Inuyasha's enelies are tyically one-trick wonders, and Aang doesn't even come close to that definition.

Inuyasha vs. Katara
Some may feel I should have used Ozai or Azula, but they both bounce off Inuyasha's clothing, and neither are anything but overpowered combat experts. (Basically, they pretty much lose to everyone, so let's not bother with them.) Katara has her blood bending, which equates her more to a Sasuke. I basically chose her because she goes beyond the norm more than any other in her universe (metal and electricity bending being not particularly unique or powerful, though Inuyasha might be unpleasantly surprised trying to use adamant barrage against the little blind girl). Katara is in trouble in this fight. She can hurt Inuyasha, but she has little defense against Inuyasha's overly aggressive techniques. Wind Scar and Adamant Barrage will both blow away anything she can put in the way, and she has no defense against Meido. She can Blood Bend to a draw, but that's the best she can do here. If the Blood Bending inspires Inuyasha's demon side to wax, he might become immune to Blood Bending. Do demons have water in their bodies? We can't be certain, so we can't be certain Blood Bending wins this for Katara..

Naraku vs. Naruto
Naraku is all powerful, sure, but in his final form he assaulted Inuyasha's demon side, trying to bring it out. The same technique might accidentally draw out Naruto's Nine-tails. If that happens, Naraku gets introduced to a whole new world of power. Inuyasha is still just a regular demon even when in demon form, but the Nine Tails is the most powerful spirit of his universe -- Naruto annihilates terrain on a square mile scale when he goes to demon form. It is true Naraku can reform so long as he has the jewel, but the Kyubi may have the power to recognize that problem (being a demon), and the raw strength to blast away all parts of Naraku near the Shikon jewel, plucking it from his body. Really, Naraku is defined as being invulnerable so I shouldn't be letting the Nine-tails get at the jewel, but I think Naraku is invulnerable relative to his own world, not the absolute invulnerability demanded by the story. (I loathe absolutes and rarely treat them as such.) If you prefer the absolute version of Naraku, he can't be defeated by anything except what did defeat him, so he beats everyone in every other universe, losing only to the power of plot in the other universes. That's not fun for me, so I treat the invulnerability as only relative. Your mileage may vary.

Naraku vs. Sasuke
Sasuke has nothing. He can't seriously hurt Naraku, and his genjitsu will eventually time-out, if Naraku were even vulnerable to it. Naraku wins, eventually or quickly, depending on your opinion of Genjitsu.

Naraku vs. Aang
Aang might win, if the plot allowed him the knowledge of the Jewel (which would come from the spirits), but I've declared no plot effects allowed. Aang would be unable to identify why Naraku was constantly regenerating and so Aang simply couldn't win, unless Naraku got arrogant and told him. Even with the knowledge, Aang actually lacks the raw power to get at the Jewel, so Aang probably loses. I don't think Avatar state Aang has the raw power of a Kyubi Naruto. Avatar Aang doesn't overwhelm an upgunned Oazi, but a Kyubi Naruto turns vast areas of landmass into ash at whim. Avatar state is more powerful than normal Aang, but it's not on the same scale as Kyubi, IMO.

Naraku vs. Katara
Blood bending might remove the shard. This unique type of manipulation (that would cause the flesh to peel back from the jewel of its own accord) may allow her to separate the jewel by getting around the invulnerability, if water makes up some of Naraku's substance. She doesn't damage Naraku to achieve this result, she only moves what's there around. However, on her own she lacks the power to defeat Naraku even without the jewel. He's still just plain too strong: both have untiring energy but Naraku is just defined with too much power output. Aang and Katara together could defeat him, but apart neither can defeat him alone.

Naruto vs. Aang
Naruto has difficulty with flying enemies. Even without Avatar form, Aang is nearly untouchable by Naruto's best attacks. Nothing would inspire Aang to Avatar form, nor Naruto to Kyubi, so this comes down to regular power for both. Aang, unlike Inuyasha, has an array of defenses against Clones, and many ways to avoid Rasengan, so Naruto's distracting solutions usable on previous enemies do not work regularly against Aang's flexible power selection. It's ironic that Wind Scar is just too powerful to be used well against Multi-clone jitsu (due to it being lots of power focused in more or less a single straight line), but a rapid fire earth bending kata would only have to scratch them to wipe them out with much less power use. Wind Shuriken would kill Aang if it hit, but it would amplify Aang's Fire bending if he were to see the rock-paper-scissors effect of Naruto's techniques and defend with that (Naruto may not realize it, but Sasuke's Fire jitsu's might make Wind Shuriken completely useless against him). Aang is unique to Naruto, having four of five elements without jitsu inspired end-runs around Naruto's perceived limits, and lacks access only to the electrical techniques which would amplify Naruto's own air style! (Azula would get wasted by a Naruto with a little more training in Air manipulation.) Naruto is at a distinct disadvantage in this fight with only limited capacity in the very element Aang is most powerful in, and Aang has the best elements to us against him, as well as untiring power to overcome Naruto's excessive endurance in his own world. Aang wins, after a very long and drawn out fight that ends with Wind Shuriken amping up a fire blast of some sort that flattens Naruto.

Naruto vs. Katara
In a straight up fight, Naruto wins. Water has no advantage here, while Naruto faces water techniques and defeats them in his own universe (there's nothing new for Naruto in this fight). It is blood bending only that gives Katara any advantage, but she can't be sure she isn't controlling a clone. Shadow Clones beat blood bending, so she only wins if she starts with Blood Bending, which is against her belief system. Rasengan lays out Katara, since I don't think a water technique is going to block a spinning chakra ball. Ice might help slow it a little, but the darn thing blasts through trees, so Ice wouldn't do more than save her life: she'd still get hit and hurt by the residuals.

Sasuke vs. Aang
Genjitsu to begin... Sasuke seems to have become a heavy genjitsu user, so it has to be the starting point for him against an unknown enemy. Aang's access to spirit realms might defeat this type of technique. While trapped, he may find assistance waiting for him on the other side, revealing how to defeat the techniques. Others may disagree with that suggestion, but I think the genjitsu universe is simply too close to the pocket dimension of the spirits, and there would be overlap. It then turns into a Fire and Electricity vs. Fire, Earth, Air, and Water -- Fire Amps water, and Electricity amps air. Air amps fire and earth amps electricity. This creates a strangely interesting RPS fight that Sasuke has the initial advantage in due to superior knowledge, but if Aang survives, he'll pick up on it by observation. Aang also lacks an energy limitation, while Sasuke would be drained by the initial genjitsu. Sasuke needs to win fast, but lacks the ability to catch a flying Aang. I have to give the advantage to Aang, due to superior range and unlimited energy, and access to allies that would ensure Genjitsu would not work for long enough.

Sasuke vs. Katara
Genjitsu vs. Blood Bending. This is why I chose Katara. Whoever lands theirs first wins. Kitara would lose, because she never begins with Blood Bending, since she hates the idea of it, using it only as a last resort. Sasuke begins with Genjitsu, so he would always win based on personality traits. Were Kitara more prone to Blood Bend, this would come down to whoever saw the other first. With advance knowledge that she need only avoid Sasuke's eyes, Katara can keep Sasuke under control if she lands her blood bending first: Once entrapped, Sasuke can't make the hand signs to perform Jitsu's, and so has no way out. If Sasuke lands Genjitsu first, Katara has no way to know where the real Sasuke is so Blood Bending can't help her escape. So, the real answer is Sasuke because he's uninhibited, but they are actually more evenly matched in actual ability than this result suggests. I don't see this coming down to a stand-up fight, but once Sasuke saw Water, he'd rely solely on electricity, not allowing his fire to amp her water. Katara has no option but water, and is fortunate she isn't an earth user.

Overall
So, overall you can tell I am not an Inuyasha fan. His techniques are fundamentally limited and succeed because of plot, not power or ability. Naruto is much better, but his power comes at a cost that he is unable to pay too often, and with fundamental limitations. Aang has power without limit, by definition, giving him the superior position, with only the caveat that any other Avatar would demonstrate his universe is even more superior, while Aang's lack of Avatar form really isn't as bad a limitation in this competition than it might have been. Naraku is the most powerful enemy of the three universes by far, since his defenses are absolute, but if they are treated as relative, they can get him into trouble. There is a certain amount of RPS in the results here, so no one universe should be concluded to be superior.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-03-09, 03:14 PM
Excellent summary but would like to point out somethings you might have missed.


Naruto's World
Ninja powers in Naruto's world breaks down to three styles -- Taijitsu (hand-to-hand combat), Ninjitsu (chakra powered techinues with physical results), and Genjitsu (chakra powered techniques with mental results). Individuals are usually specialized in only one of the three, sometimes two, but so far none are powerful in all three. All of these techniques base their power on either chakra control and/or elemental manipulation. Chakra control results in elemental-less techniques (such as Naruto's ninjitsu Rasengan... most genjitsu are control only). Elemental maniplation results in elemental special effects, like Sasuke's Chidori (a lightning element attack commensurate in power to Rasengan). Both can be combined to greater effect: Naruto adds Wind manipulation to Rasengan to create Wind Shuriken, a technique many times more destructive. The chosen Element is important, since there is a rock-paper-scissors to the five elements. Each element is amplified by another. Fire is amplified by wind, which is amplified by electricity, which is amplified by earth, which is amplified by water, which is amplified by fire. So, if you use fire, you want to fight wind users, but not water users, since your fire makes a water tehnique used against you more powerful instead of blocking it, while a wind user can't block your fire with wind. Normally, no individual can use more than two elements, but the author breaks this rule periodically. Chakra is a limited pool of energy, so as the fight progresses, the Ninja will eventually be unable to use anything except Taijitsu (which requires no Chakra). Weapons only decide which styles are available to the user. Many powerful ninja use no weapons (Gai, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi), while others do (Orochimaru, Sasuke, Asuma). Power in this world is far more flexible than Inuyasha's. Some techniques are fixed in ability, but many are very flexible. Naruto's Shadow Clones allow more than just 50 attackers: they can be used as distractions or defense, allowing other attacks to proceed unnoticed, or preventing attacks from reaching the intended target. Creativity in application of techniques is one of the determinators of who wins.

You are a little off with the elemental chakra stuff. Wind doesn't amplify fire, it's weak against fire. So on and so forth. It's still an advantage as you point out below, but not in the same way.


Inuyasha vs. Sasuke
Sasuke has a harder time with Inuyasha. Inuyasha won't run out of power like his other opponents. But Sasuke wins. Genjitsu. Inuyasha has no familiarity with Sasuke's Genjitsu, and so wouldn't know that he'd already lost. Inuyasha swings and swings, hitting only illusions, and never scratches Sasuke. If Inuyasha had a way out of the Genjitsu, it uses a lot of Chakra, so Sasuke would be in trouble against the limitless energy of Inuyasha. He's got no defense against Meido, so he could find himself exiled to another world. I just don't think Inuyasha should be overcoming the Genjitsu without his allies there to break him out of the effect. Inuyasha faces illusions in his stories, but he doesn't overcome them alone: his allies help him out of them. It is one of his predefined weaknesses. Alone, Inuyasha can't beat Sasuke's Genjitsu, and Sasuke has been opening with it recently, making it his first appropriate attack form.

Sasuke does have, somewhat, of a defense against Meido with that being the Sharingan. Unfortunately he'd either see it coming (and not be there) or know someway to defeat it with his own experience, however slight, with other worlds. (Dispersing the Demon-Fox and Orochimaru's possession)


Naraku vs. Naruto
Naraku is all powerful, sure, but in his final form he assaulted Inuyasha's demon side, trying to bring it out. The same technique might accidentally draw out Naruto's Nine-tails. If that happens, Naraku gets introduced to a whole new world of power. Inuyasha is still just a regular demon even when in demon form, but the Nine Tails is the most powerful spirit of his universe -- Naruto annihilates terrain on a square mile scale when he goes to demon form. It is true Naraku can reform so long as he has the jewel, but the Kyubi may have the power to recognize that problem (being a demon), and the raw strength to blast away all parts of Naraku near the Shikon jewel, plucking it from his body. Really, Naraku is defined as being invulnerable so I shouldn't be letting the Nine-tails get at the jewel, but I think Naraku is invulnerable relative to his own world, not the absolute invulnerability demanded by the story. (I loathe absolutes and rarely treat them as such.) If you prefer the absolute version of Naraku, he can't be defeated by anything except what did defeat him, so he beats everyone in every other universe, losing only to the power of plot in the other universes. That's not fun for me, so I treat the invulnerability as only relative. Your mileage may vary.

With every manisfestation (in any serious manner) of the Kyuubi so far it has been shown that Naruto is no longer in control of himself and goes off of pure instinct either because the Demon-Fox itself isn't in full control either, it's intelligence doesn't arrive until higher forms, or it just wants to enjoy pure carnage. If the Kyuubi-Naruto could reveal the Jewel, and who knows it might be able too, I doubt it'd react to it's presence besides trying to destroy it. Don't know if that's possible either but I thought I'd point out the mindless rage the Kyuubi brings since it makes this fight almost exactly like Orochimaru vs. 4-tailed Naruto except without the snake fixation on one side.


Naraku vs. Sasuke
Sasuke has nothing. He can't seriously hurt Naraku, and his genjitsu will eventually time-out, if Naraku were even vulnerable to it. Naraku wins, eventually or quickly, depending on your opinion of Genjitsu.

Might be a difference of opinion here about Sasuke able to harm Naraku. I think Kirin could, at least, level Naraku's body and force him to reform but that's sort of a one-time kind of deal as shown so far. And depending on the genjutsu, he might still be able to win with his Tsukiyomi-like genjutsu he's shown using twice. If it IS Tsukiyomi then Naraku could very well suffer extensive mental damage once the fight starts, but I don't know if it'd be enough to take him out. I don't think other genjutsu would be as effective though.


Naraku vs. Aang
Aang might win, if the plot allowed him the knowledge of the Jewel (which would come from the spirits), but I've declared no plot effects allowed. Aang would be unable to identify why Naraku was constantly regenerating and so Aang simply couldn't win, unless Naraku got arrogant and told him. Even with the knowledge, Aang actually lacks the raw power to get at the Jewel, so Aang probably loses. I don't think Avatar state Aang has the raw power of a Kyubi Naruto. Avatar Aang doesn't overwhelm an upgunned Oazi, but a Kyubi Naruto turns vast areas of landmass into ash at whim. Avatar state is more powerful than normal Aang, but it's not on the same scale as Kyubi, IMO.

I would argue Avatar Aang is stronger then your giving him because I got a different impression of his last fight but Aang has an advantage in this fight the other's don't in Spirit-bending. Assuming it's apply to Naraku's various demonic abilities and whatnot, well...it would come down to if it worked or not.


Naruto vs. Aang
Naruto has difficulty with flying enemies. Even without Avatar form, Aang is nearly untouchable by Naruto's best attacks. Nothing would inspire Aang to Avatar form, nor Naruto to Kyubi, so this comes down to regular power for both. Aang, unlike Inuyasha, has an array of defenses against Clones, and many ways to avoid Rasengan, so Naruto's distracting solutions usable on previous enemies do not work regularly against Aang's flexible power selection. It's ironic that Wind Scar is just too powerful to be used well against Multi-clone jitsu (due to it being lots of power focused in more or less a single straight line), but a rapid fire earth bending kata would only have to scratch them to wipe them out with much less power use. Wind Shuriken would kill Aang if it hit, but it would amplify Aang's Fire bending if he were to see the rock-paper-scissors effect of Naruto's techniques and defend with that (Naruto may not realize it, but Sasuke's Fire jitsu's might make Wind Shuriken completely useless against him). Aang is unique to Naruto, having four of five elements without jitsu inspired end-runs around Naruto's perceived limits, and lacks access only to the electrical techniques which would amplify Naruto's own air style! (Azula would get wasted by a Naruto with a little more training in Air manipulation.) Naruto is at a distinct disadvantage in this fight with only limited capacity in the very element Aang is most powerful in, and Aang has the best elements to us against him, as well as untiring power to overcome Naruto's excessive endurance in his own world. Aang wins, after a very long and drawn out fight that ends with Wind Shuriken amping up a fire blast of some sort that flattens Naruto.

Two...er...rather three things. Frog summoning (he doesn't use it often, but he does use it and Gamabunta is a rather large advantage), and Sage Mode (which I don't think would give Naruto a victory all by his lonesome but allows him to throw the Rasen-Shuriken which is a rather deadly prospect for Aang). With the third being to use a chain of shadow clones to whip himself up into the air. He's done something similar before but it wasn't to actually catch a flying enemy so don't know if it's work.


Sasuke vs. Aang
Genjitsu to begin... Sasuke seems to have become a heavy genjitsu user, so it has to be the starting point for him against an unknown enemy. Aang's access to spirit realms might defeat this type of technique. While trapped, he may find assistance waiting for him on the other side, revealing how to defeat the techniques. Others may disagree with that suggestion, but I think the genjitsu universe is simply too close to the pocket dimension of the spirits, and there would be overlap. It then turns into a Fire and Electricity vs. Fire, Earth, Air, and Water -- Fire Amps water, and Electricity amps air. Air amps fire and earth amps electricity. This creates a strangely interesting RPS fight that Sasuke has the initial advantage in due to superior knowledge, but if Aang survives, he'll pick up on it by observation. Aang also lacks an energy limitation, while Sasuke would be drained by the initial genjitsu. Sasuke needs to win fast, but lacks the ability to catch a flying Aang. I have to give the advantage to Aang, due to superior range and unlimited energy, and access to allies that would ensure Genjitsu would not work for long enough.

Sasuke has the ability to catch a flying enemy, if Aang keeps low to the ground as he is shown to do. Otherwise he's gliding and it's much more difficult for him to bend. Sasuke's ability being his ranged normal jutsu. Fireball, phoenix fire, greater fireball, chidori field, chidori senbon, chidori sword, and kirin. All things that could catch a flying enemy but only two would be fight enders with those being the last ones. I'm sure Aang could dodge an attach that is the equivilent of a ray attack, but can he dodge lightening? Not lightening bending (with it's rather obvious motion to begin) but actual lightening? That's the clincher in this fight.

Like I said, good summary and I hadn't considered some of those things when I first looked at this. Between the people you picked though the fighting would be rather equivalent.

Kreistor
2009-03-09, 06:31 PM
Excellent summary but would like to point out somethings you might have missed.

Sure. I don't claim to be able to remember everything.


You are a little off with the elemental chakra stuff. Wind doesn't amplify fire, it's weak against fire. So on and so forth. It's still an advantage as you point out below, but not in the same way.

Well, yeah, I oversimplified. But it's both. Fire is amplified by wind (fanning the flames) and is weakened by water (putting the fire out). I only wanted to deal with one, since the other is kind of redundant in the discussion, overcomplicating something that can be simplified with a little ignorance.


Sasuke does have, somewhat, of a defense against Meido with that being the Sharingan. Unfortunately he'd either see it coming (and not be there) or know someway to defeat it with his own experience, however slight, with other worlds. (Dispersing the Demon-Fox and Orochimaru's possession)

Sharingan will reveal Meido coming, but not how to duplicate it or defeat it. He knows what Meido is, but he has to draw upon his training to know how to defeat it, and so far we've seen no alternate dimension stuff in Naruto (might be forgettign something there, though). It's not Ninja art, so he can't copy it. But in fact everyone can see Meido once it is started: it's not an invisible attack. Anyone can dodge it, if they are capable of moving fast enough: but we can't be so arrogant as to say Inuyasha never gets to win because everyone always avoids Meido: we're being unfair to one universe by declaring their abilities to be useless. I don't agree that Sasuke could disperse a gate to another plane just because he can see that it is a gate to another plane. Access to the Nine-tails is spiritual: the nine-tails spirit is inside Naruto: the conversations between Naruto and the Nine-tails take place in the subconscious, which is the place of Genjitsu and therefore sharingan. Even if you were right, and the Nine-tails occupies a different plane, we've seen no evidence that he could break a connection to another realm that was detached from a mind. we have here a gate to another plane floating across the land towards Sasuke: where's the mind for Sasuke to enter to disrupt the gate?


With every manisfestation (in any serious manner) of the Kyuubi so far it has been shown that Naruto is no longer in control of himself and goes off of pure instinct either because the Demon-Fox itself isn't in full control either, it's intelligence doesn't arrive until higher forms, or it just wants to enjoy pure carnage. If the Kyuubi-Naruto could reveal the Jewel, and who knows it might be able too, I doubt it'd react to it's presence besides trying to destroy it. Don't know if that's possible either but I thought I'd point out the mindless rage the Kyuubi brings since it makes this fight almost exactly like Orochimaru vs. 4-tailed Naruto except without the snake fixation on one side.

Oh, I agree. But the Shikon Jewel is something all demons seem to know about, and the Nine-tails is a demon. It is not inconceivable for the Nine-tails to know of its importance, and in fact he's likely to be able to puzzle it out. The nine-tails is intelligent, of a sort, just like demons of Inuyasha's realm. It is raw anger, but not stupid. The Nine-tails operates on instinct, but it has knowledge and intelligence nonetheless. Why it chooses not to use them is yet to be determined.


Might be a difference of opinion here about Sasuke able to harm Naraku. I think Kirin could, at least, level Naraku's body and force him to reform but that's sort of a one-time kind of deal as shown so far. And depending on the genjutsu, he might still be able to win with his Tsukiyomi-like genjutsu he's shown using twice. If it IS Tsukiyomi then Naraku could very well suffer extensive mental damage once the fight starts, but I don't know if it'd be enough to take him out. I don't think other genjutsu would be as effective though.

Sasuke could hurt Naraku, sure, but no more than Inuyasha could. Inuyasha does severe damage: my complaint is that the techniques lack flexibility not firepower. Power vs. power, head on, Inuyasha overpowers Sasuke. I don't think even Kirin has more energy than Wind Scar. But that wasn't enough to defeat final form Naraku with the Jewel. Sasuke can't get at the Jewel, and so whatever harm he does will be regenerated. Sasuke's limited Chakra pool means that Naraku's limitless regeneration defeats him. Genjitsu can't destroy Naraku, only distract him for a while, until Sasuke runs out of power. While under the Genjitsu, Naraku is still invulnerable and regenerating: mental effects don't change that fact. Hit him with everything in Sasuke's arsenal, and Naraku still regenerates.


I would argue Avatar Aang is stronger then your giving him because I got a different impression of his last fight but Aang has an advantage in this fight the other's don't in Spirit-bending. Assuming it's apply to Naraku's various demonic abilities and whatnot, well...it would come down to if it worked or not.

Aang only knows how to cut someone off from bending. That's of no use against anyone outside his own universe. Chakra users are not benders, and that won't cut them off from energy inside their own body: Chakra is produced naturally, and the only way to cut it off is to actually damage the human physically (which almost happened to Rock Lee). Spirit manipulation requires a contest of wills, and that is not something aang automatically wins, especially when it comes to other protagonists with their own powerful personalities. With more training, maybe Aang could pull this off, but I definitely do not think Aang has more spirit than Inuyasha, Naruto, and definitely not modern Sasuke. Sasuke beat his own brother to get where he is: Aang has nothing in his make-up to overcome that level of conviction. Oazi was actually a weakling hiding behind his power -- megalomaniacal and paranoid: Sasuke has confidence, obsession, and now conviction. Sasuke has already had a battle of wills vs. Orochimaru, and I would give O the advantage if Aang ever tred to manipulate his spirit. Were he to try it on Naruto, Aang might succeed to a point, until he hit the Nine-tails, whose raw anger and mental power would squash Aang.


Two...er...rather three things. Frog summoning (he doesn't use it often, but he does use it and Gamabunta is a rather large advantage), and Sage Mode (which I don't think would give Naruto a victory all by his lonesome but allows him to throw the Rasen-Shuriken which is a rather deadly prospect for Aang). With the third being to use a chain of shadow clones to whip himself up into the air. He's done something similar before but it wasn't to actually catch a flying enemy so don't know if it's work.

If unimpeded, the chain would work... once. The problem is that Aang can fly naturally, and so it wouldn't work more than that. Tricks tend to be one shot deals. Aang is just as tricky as Naruto, so Naruto doesn't have an advantage there.


Sasuke has the ability to catch a flying enemy, if Aang keeps low to the ground as he is shown to do.

Depends on the situation, but he is used to those kind of fire attacks from fire benders, so they would not be a surprise to Aang. In fact, Aang is used to longer range fire attacks, and so Sasuke's shorter range fire and electricity would not cause him much grief. Sasuke can hit a flier, but Aang has experience with that kind of attack so it would not work.


I'm sure Aang could dodge an attach that is the equivilent of a ray attack, but can he dodge lightening? Not lightening bending (with it's rather obvious motion to begin) but actual lightening? That's the clincher in this fight.

Getting Kirin (IIRC, that's he lightning from the sky that hit Itachi? Correct me if I'm wrong) to hit is not easy. Aang is a water bender, and so would be using the clouds created by Sasuke against him long before the electrical charge built up. (IIRC, Sasuke used fire to create the conditions that created clouds that ionized the clouds and charged the ground to create a lightning bolt.) No, he might not see the electrical attack coming, but the presence of water is useful to Aang first, and so the clouds may be dissipated before the attack came down. Hitting Aang also takes some doing. It depends where he is and what he's doing. If he's flying, he's very mobile and may not be in the area betwen the building charges. If he's on the ground, he may be encased in earth, which grounds the electricity around him. (Path of least resistance is through the higher conductivity earth, not the lower conductivity human.) If he's whipping water lashes, the electricity might arc to ground through those. Sasuke can not control what that lightning hits, and Aang is a very active opponent.


Like I said, good summary and I hadn't considered some of those things when I first looked at this. Between the people you picked though the fighting would be rather equivalent.

You reminded me of one thing: Boss Frog. I never considered Naruto summoning the big guy in any of these. Boss Frog may be able to tell him about the Shikon Jewel (though it would be no help to normal form Naruto), and would be difficult for non-Avatar form Aang to injure. Inuyasha could easily Meido him, though, so he's no help there (Boss Frog is a big ugly target for Inyasha's area effect attacks).