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View Full Version : 4e- Double Weapons, or Problems with Keywords



Asbestos
2009-03-05, 01:03 PM
Ok, so, how do double weapons in 4e work? If its enchanted, only the 'main hand' side of the weapon gets the specific enchantment, while the 'off-hand' side just gets the numerical bonus to hit and damage, correct? But, what determines which end is the 'primary' end? Is it in the statblock? For example, an urgosh is 1d12/1d8 and axe, spear. Is the Main hand side the 1d12 axe? Or is the 1d12 part simultaneously axe and spear (which is silly)


Or, is the main/off-hand determined by the wielder? For example the infamous double sword is heavy blade, light blade. Now, in my interpretation of the urgosh the first listed damage/type is the 'main' side. Meaning that the light blade is off-hand, meaning that the weapon is suboptimal for rogues because they basically only have a Magic + X Defensive Rapier when wielding the double sword, rather than something with a meaningful enchantment. This of course would mean that a parrying dagger might actually be a better bet for a rogue (which is how I think it was originally intended)

However, that interpretation gets weird in regards to the Spiked Chain with the Spiked Chain Mastery feat, in which it becomes a double weapon and gains the light blade keyword. Presumably, both ends of the chain are spiked, meaning that both sides should be flail/light blade.

Now, the 'off-hand' property on these items. For a tempest fighter, for whom 'off-hand' matters most, do they get their class feature granted bonus to damage to both ends of the double weapon or only to the off-hand end?

Now, with enchanted weapons... does the tiefling tempest fighter (hey, why not?) with a Flaming Double Sword and the Hellfire Blood feat using Dual Strike get a bonus to hit and damage with both granted attacks or just one? Remember, only one end has the Flaming enchantment while the other merely has a +X to hit and damage.


Am I the only one confused by this?

Sir Homeslice
2009-03-05, 01:13 PM
Ah yes, Double Weapons, the problem child of 4th Edition next to the Stealth rules. You are in fact not the only person confused in this matter; I am too.

As for the Tiefling Tempest Fighter, only the main hand would benefit from the Hellfire Blood feat, as it is the only Flaming end.

ColdSepp
2009-03-05, 01:14 PM
Wizards is down or I'd link you the information.

All the properties of a double weapon apply to both ends. So a rogue can sneak attack with a double, and use heavy blade opportunity with one. Both ends are Light, both ends are Heavy, both ends are Off Hand, and both ends are Defensive.

Also, any feat that works of one property will work for both ends (An Urgosh can benefit from Eladrin Soldier or Dwarven Weapon Training, for instance, and you can have Nimble Blade and Blade Opportunist with a double sword.) The cost is that only one side benefits from a magic weapon property. Of course, you choose which end it goes on and which end to attack with.

And only one side is Flaming, so Hellfire Blood applies to that one attack.

NPCMook
2009-03-05, 03:06 PM
The way I've always looked at the weapons in question(Ungorsh and Double Sword) is the comma is like the slash, separating the two ends. The first die is the primary head(Axe or Heavy Blade) from the secondary head(Spear or Light Blade). So technically the Ungorsh can only have Axe Enhancements, while the Double Sword can only have Heavy Blade enhancements.

And before you come in saying "But that's just gimping the weapon," that's just how I read them

Asbestos
2009-03-05, 07:36 PM
The way I've always looked at the weapons in question(Ungorsh and Double Sword) is the comma is like the slash, separating the two ends. The first die is the primary head(Axe or Heavy Blade) from the secondary head(Spear or Light Blade). So technically the Ungorsh can only have Axe Enhancements, while the Double Sword can only have Heavy Blade enhancements.

And before you come in saying "But that's just gimping the weapon," that's just how I read them

That's sort of how I look at it too, though like I said, it does weird things with the Spiked Chain with the extra feat to make it a double weapon and it becomes 'flail, light blade'. Though, I suppose you could say that its enchanting the chain and not the spikes... *shrug*


As for the Hellfire Blood... by RAW, wouldn't the Tiefling get the bonus to both attacks since the power itself, Dual Strike, has the Fire keyword thanks to the Flaming weapon? Not that I'd do this, but I can see people that adhere purely to RAW arguing this.

Jothki
2009-03-05, 08:05 PM
I wonder, by RAW can you freely switch around which end of the weapon has the effect by changing which end serves as the primary? There's actually a kind of sense to that, the weapon as a whole gives the effect but only gives it once at a time.

NPCMook
2009-03-05, 08:53 PM
By RAW, no, but yes you should be allowed to