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Zaq
2009-03-05, 10:36 PM
Versatile Spellcaster, from Races of the Dragon, lets you pay two spell slots to cast "a spell you know that is one level higher." Would this let you apply metamagic higher than you could normally apply it?

For example, consider a 1st level human sorcerer, who takes Still Spell and Versatile Spellcaster as his feats. He knows the spell Magic Missile. Can he spend two 1st-level spell slots and cast a Stilled Magic Missile? After all, he "knows" Magic Missile, and I doubt that there would be a problem with him spending two 0th level slots to cast a Stilled Acid Splash (assuming of course that he knows Acid Splash), so would that be possible?

If not, why not?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-05, 10:56 PM
Versatile Spellcaster, from Races of the Dragon, lets you pay two spell slots to cast "a spell you know that is one level higher." Would this let you apply metamagic higher than you could normally apply it?

For example, consider a 1st level human sorcerer, who takes Still Spell and Versatile Spellcaster as his feats. He knows the spell Magic Missile. Can he spend two 1st-level spell slots and cast a Stilled Magic Missile? After all, he "knows" Magic Missile, and I doubt that there would be a problem with him spending two 0th level slots to cast a Stilled Acid Splash (assuming of course that he knows Acid Splash), so would that be possible?

If not, why not?

By RAW, yes. Heck, by RAW, a Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro of 1st level can use it to cast 2nd level spells, because they don't have Spells Known list, but automatically know all spells on the list.

PurinaDragonCho
2009-03-06, 12:48 AM
By RAW, yes. Heck, by RAW, a Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro of 1st level can use it to cast 2nd level spells, because they don't have Spells Known list, but automatically know all spells on the list.

As to the sorcerer question, I agree. As to the interpretation of the other classes, I think that's questionable. Each of those three classes' spell access is worded almost identically. It says that when a character "gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all spells for that level listed on the spell list." You have to be able to cast spells of that level before you know any of them. Bootstrapping it with a feat like this doesn't make logical sense to me. I wouldn't allow it as DM, nor would I ask to do it as a player. I don't think it's RAW or RAI. Just my opinion.

JellyPooga
2009-03-06, 02:58 AM
I concur that you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Metamagic'd spells at higher level spells than you normally cast, but disagree on the Dread Necro/etc. casting from higher levels on their list I don't think that's the intention or the rule as written.

On a related topic, I've always wondered if you can stack the effect of Verstile Caster to produce even greater effects. For Example:

4 0th = 2 1st = 1 2nd...using 4 0th level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell
or
6 1st = 3 2nd, + 1 2nd = 2 3rd = 1 4th...using 6 1st level spell slots and 1 2nd level spell slot to cast a 4th level spell

I don't think the RAW supports this due to the wording of the Feat, but I kinda like the idea of burning all your magical power for the day to cast a spell far beyond your normal capabilities.

Zaq
2009-03-06, 03:15 AM
Wait a second, if you can indeed apply metamagic above your normal limit, would you be able to combine it with Heighten Spell to qualify for things? That would be pretty awesome, if not 100% RAI. Heighten Spell does state that it's "in all ways" treated as a higher level spell...

Which would mean that a Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge would only lose a single casting level on either side. You're still behind, and you're still MAD, but much, much less so. Hmmm... I can't have been the first person to think of this. I'm sure there are plenty of other things you could also qualify for as well... Theurge is just the one I could think of off the top of my head that doesn't have any skill requirements. What else could you do with this?

olentu
2009-03-06, 05:05 AM
First off to try and help clarify my position on the matter of this feat I read the feat as allowing the character to use two spell slots of level X to cast another spell that must be of level X+1 and additionally must be a spell that the character knows at the time that the feat is used. Additionally I do not take the FAQ as always correct.



So first I generally do not agree that a beguiler, warmage, or dread necromancer can cast a spell of a higher level then they currently have slots for since as per my interpretation of the feat they would not know any spells of the higher level at the time of the casting. However if one of these classes somehow knew a spell of a higher level then they could cast they would be able to use the feat in such a way. It would also probably be possible to get around this restriction with heighten spell.



Second I have a problem with the way people are using the feat to cast a spell changed by any metamagic other then heighten spell. The reason behind this is that SRD says

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

So I interpret the passage to mean that for example an extended mage armor spell operates as a first level spell and thus does not count as a second level spell for the purposes of this feat. Heighten spell would of course be an exception.

However if there is some rules text that I am not aware of that would change these conclusions please feel free to point it out.

weenie
2009-03-06, 05:17 AM
Don't know, the SRD says that a metamagic spell is cast as a higher level spell, so I see no problem with it. Anyway I don't think that any DM would disallow using the feat for casting metamagic spells.

JellyPooga
2009-03-06, 05:20 AM
Second I have a problem with the way people are using the feat to cast a spell changed by any metamagic other then heighten spell. The reason behind this is that SRD says

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

So I interpret the passage to mean that for example an extended mage armor spell operates as a first level spell and thus does not count as a second level spell for the purposes of this feat. Heighten spell would of course be an exception.

By this argument, a Sorcerer capable of casting 2nd level spells normally (i.e. Class Level 4+) could not cast, to use your example, an Extended Mage Armour using 2 1st level spells (and this Feat, obviously). Is that also part of your interpretation?

olentu
2009-03-06, 05:27 AM
By this argument, a Sorcerer capable of casting 2nd level spells normally (i.e. Class Level 4+) could not cast, to use your example, an Extended Mage Armour using 2 1st level spells (and this Feat, obviously). Is that also part of your interpretation?

That is correct they would have to use 2 zero level slots (I know this interpretation is rather full of potential for abuse).

JellyPooga
2009-03-06, 05:32 AM
That is correct they would have to use 2 zero level slots (I know this interpretation is rather full of potential for abuse).

So wait...you're saying that Mr.Sorcerer can cast an Extended Widened Stilled Silent Twin Delayed Energy-Admixtured, etc. etc. 1st level spell with 2 measly 0th level spell slots? You just ignore the meta-magic cost completely because of a wording issue?:smallconfused:

Ummm, I think you might want to revise your interpretation...:smallcool:

olentu
2009-03-06, 05:39 AM
So wait...you're saying that Mr.Sorcerer can cast an Extended Widened Stilled Silent Twin Delayed Energy-Admixtured, etc. etc. 1st level spell with 2 measly 0th level spell slots? You just ignore the meta-magic cost completely because of a wording issue?:smallconfused:

Ummm, I think you might want to revise your interpretation...:smallcool:

I am saying that it is my interpretation that due to wording the feat says that one could cast "an Extended Widened Stilled Silent Twin Delayed Energy-Admixtured, etc. etc. 1st level spell with 2 measly 0th level spell slots?"


I would not allow that to work in a game I DM but I would also not say that said game is being run strictly by the rules.

Talic
2009-03-06, 05:59 AM
Level 1 human sorceror/Dread Necro/Warmage/Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster and Precocious Apprentice (warmage/Dread Necro/beguiler).

Precocious Apprentice allows the caster to know a 2nd level spell, and cast it.

Since the caster has access to a 2nd level spell, he automatically knows all level 2 spells on the list.

Bam, burn a couple level 1 spells and cast any level 2.

Roderick_BR
2009-03-06, 09:10 AM
I didn't knew it could do that. Cool! I've been working on a variant for a homebrew system that does that, "paying" extra slots to reduce metamagic cost.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-06, 10:28 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a

Zeful
2009-03-06, 04:02 PM
Second I have a problem with the way people are using the feat to cast a spell changed by any metamagic other then heighten spell. The reason behind this is that SRD says

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

So I interpret the passage to mean that for example an extended mage armor spell operates as a first level spell and thus does not count as a second level spell for the purposes of this feat. Heighten spell would of course be an exception.

However if there is some rules text that I am not aware of that would change these conclusions please feel free to point it out. An Extended Mage Armor would count as a first level spell for all other purposes beyond preparation and casting. Since it is cast as a higher level spell you have to have a spell slot of the appropriate level (in this case 2nd) available otherwise you can't prepare or cast it. If you were to use this feat to cast a Quickened, Stilled, Silent, Extended Mage Armor at first level (assuming you could have all 5 feats at first level), you would need to generate a 9th level spell slot (128 1st level slots needed and a 19 in your casting stat, which is trivial) to cast it as a 2nd level spell through Versatile Spellcaster, according to your interpretation. I honestly doubt that a 1st level character can get 130 spell slots without being Pun-pun, or that a 20+ level caster would care.

olentu
2009-03-06, 04:04 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a

I found no reason to believe this from the FAQ from 6/30/2008 so sage advice that says the exact same thing does not change my view that the feat does not allow a character to give up 2 first level spell slots to cast a first level spell.

Zeful

Versatile spellcaster does not say that the character can expend 2 slots of the same level to generate a slot of one level higher that must be immediately used to cast a spell. It says that the character can expend 2 slots of the same level to cast a spell of one level higher and an extended mage armor operates in all ways as a first level spell. Expending 2 first level slots to cast an extended mage armor would mean that it is operating as a second level spell as expending 2 slots of first level only allows the character to cast a spell of one level higher which would be level 2. This means that since the extended mage armor is operating as a second level spell with respect to the feat versatile spellcaster that would be contradicting the quote.

Zeful
2009-03-06, 04:51 PM
Except since an Extended mage armor is a 2nd level spell for the purposes of casting, you must have an open 2nd level slot to cast it. If you don't have an open 2nd level spell slot, you can't cast it. Ever. Versatile Spellcaster does not change this. It only allows you to use 2 0-level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. So with your interpretation you could cast an Extended Mage Armor using only 2 0-level slots only if you had turned 2 1st level slots into a 2nd level slot before hand. That's 4 (or more) slots used to cast one spell.

olentu
2009-03-06, 05:05 PM
Except since an Extended mage armor is a 2nd level spell for the purposes of casting, you must have an open 2nd level slot to cast it. If you don't have an open 2nd level spell slot, you can't cast it. Ever. Versatile Spellcaster does not change this. It only allows you to use 2 0-level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. So with your interpretation you could cast an Extended Mage Armor using only 2 0-level slots only if you had turned 2 1st level slots into a 2nd level slot before hand. That's 4 (or more) slots used to cast one spell.

I would ask for you to post the location of the text that you are getting this requirement from as I have found some text that might qualify but I would not want to have a communication problem due to using different pieces of the rules. After having read the text I can then respond in an informed way.

Radar
2009-03-07, 05:44 AM
I just tought about something: is it possible to use Versatile Spellcaster (eventually with Heightened Spell) to apply for let's say Mystic Theurge with just one level cleric (or wizard/sorcerer - depends on what you consider as your base class) dip? It would make arcane/divine casting usable.

Triaxx
2009-03-07, 06:41 AM
I've always used the interpretation that Metamagic causes the spell to become the higher level, and is prepared and cast normally for a spell of that level.

So Versatile Spellcaster would let you give up two level 1 slots to cast an Extended Mage Armor.

olentu
2009-03-07, 07:04 AM
I've always used the interpretation that Metamagic causes the spell to become the higher level, and is prepared and cast normally for a spell of that level.

So Versatile Spellcaster would let you give up two level 1 slots to cast an Extended Mage Armor.

When you say that "that Metamagic causes the spell to become the higher level" do you mean that the spell is counted as its modified level in all ways (save DC, globe of invulnerability, etc.) as I would think that would make heighten spell redundant in most cases.