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Executor
2009-03-07, 10:58 PM
For the purposes of this incredibly nerdy debate, we shall assume two things: 1. the rest of the Watchmen (especially Dr. Manhattan) will be a non-factor due to whatever reasons (retirement, business ventures, just not giving a damn). And 2. The Joker is the Heath Ledger version from the Dark Knight.

So, it is 1984 and the Joker, having been finally caught by Gotham Police (with a bit of help from the outlaw Batman), is to be transferred to a maximum security prison in New York State (assuming that Gotham is this universe's version of either Detroit or Los Angeles). Of course, being the Joker, he escapes, and makes for New York City to inject a little chaos into the lives of the Big Apple's citizens. Naturally, there he runs afoul of the merciless Rorschach. A battle of wits, wills and raw strength begins as the Joker begins a campaign of terror in New York, similar to that which he perpetrated in Gotham, and Rorschach naturally striving to stop him.

Who emerges victorious?

Rutskarn
2009-03-07, 11:03 PM
Holy crap, is this actually a versus thread worth replying too?

And after a long day-trip where I'm too tired to respond?

Gahdrattit!

Ascension
2009-03-07, 11:06 PM
They're matched in brutality, matched in insanity. The Joker has the arguable lead intellectually. Going off movie versions of both (I regret to say it's been over a year since I've read Watchmen, while it's only been a day since I've seen the movie, so the movie's fight scenes are sticking with me at the moment) I would say that Rorschach is the superior hand-to-hand combatant.

I'd give it to Rorschach, ESPECIALLY if the Joker makes the mistake of assuming that any superhero would be as merciful to him as Batman.

"Rorschach's Journal, August 22, 198X: Clown tried to show me magic trick. Clown now dead. Magic is dead."

Horatio@Bridge
2009-03-07, 11:07 PM
Rorschach has no rules. The Joker will be lucky to emerge alive if he treats Rorschach the same way he treats Batman. As soon as Rorschach gets the chance, he'll kill Joker dead. No hesitation, no mercy. No scene like what we saw at the jail-house, because the Joker won't make it there to be interrogated. Now, the lead-up...that could be interesting. Rorschach's not so good at stopping stuff from happening, but rather focuses on bringing the criminal to justice. So, expect a lot more death. The Mayor dies. Harvey Dent dies. The people on the ferry die...and then Rorschach drops the Joker off the skyscraper. The end.

1488
2009-03-07, 11:08 PM
Joker, hands down. He's got a style that can't be beat. The Romero Joker, that is, the Ledger incarnation would probobly trip over his shoelaces and bleed to death.

puppyavenger
2009-03-07, 11:09 PM
Rorschach has no rules. The Joker will be lucky to emerge alive if he treats Rorschach the same way he treats Batman. As soon as Rorschach gets the chance, he'll kill Joker dead. No hesitation, no mercy. No scene like what we saw at the jail-house, because the Joker won't make it there to be interrogated. Now, the lead-up...that could be interesting. Rorschach's not so good at stopping stuff from happening, but rather focuses on bringing the criminal to justice. So, expect a lot more death. The Mayor dies. Harvey Dent dies. The people on the ferry die...and then Rorschach drops the Joker off the skyscraper. The end.

so, going by Jokers apparent goals in Dark Night (just causing chaos) joker win.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-07, 11:13 PM
Joker, hands down. He's got a style that can't be beat. The Romero Joker, that is, the Ledger incarnation would probobly trip over his shoelaces and bleed to death.
Did you not read Executor's post? He specifically stated the Ledger version of the Joker would be used for the purposes of this discussion. The Joker has so many different incarnations and styles that unless you specify it'd be impossible to have a coherent discussion.

1488
2009-03-07, 11:15 PM
Did you not read Executor's post? He specifically stated the Ledger version of the Joker would be used for the purposes of this discussion. The Joker has so many different incarnations and styles that unless you specify it'd be impossible to have a coherent discussion.

I read it. I just ignored it for the purposes of having more to say than Rorshack would murder ledger before finishing his breakfast and move on to some more challenging task like taking a whiz without getting it all over his hands.

AmberVael
2009-03-07, 11:16 PM
so, going by Jokers apparent goals in Dark Night (just causing chaos) joker win.
On the other hand, Rorschach's goal is just to deal with the villain, so... while the Joker may achieve his goal, Rorschach would too- and in the end, Rorschach would be one who is alive.

But yeah, really. I'm giving this one to Rorschach just due to style. The way he fights is just cool.

It would be an awesome fight to watch though, no matter who won. Things would EXPLODE.

BizzaroStormy
2009-03-07, 11:22 PM
Well theres far too many variables. No specific environment is given for the fight and neither is the arsenal to which each person has access. However, overall, I would have to say Rorschach.

"April 1st, 10:06 PM, Guy with green hair and a purple suit asks me if I want to know how he got his scars. Told him I didn't care. Gave him bigger scars."

Also, am I the only one who is kinda pissed that too many people pronounced it (Roh-shak) in the movie?

Kris on a Stick
2009-03-07, 11:28 PM
The thing is though, while Rorschach is undoubtedly the better hand-to-hand combatant, he's limited to his bare hands, wits, grapple gun, and whatever stuff he can improvise/steal.

Joker however, within days of entering New York, has goons, a semi* , several automatic weapons and a rocket launcher.


*With the obligatory Joker Smiley painted on the side. Red Spray-paint mishap optional.

kpenguin
2009-03-07, 11:30 PM
Also, am I the only one who is kinda pissed that too many people pronounced it (Roh-shak) in the movie?

No, but I'm not among them. I always thought that was how the name of the original tests were pronounced.

Also: Not the Heath Ledger Joker, but relevant. (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=21973&start=802)

Executor
2009-03-07, 11:35 PM
PirateJesus: The enviroment is New York City and the Tri-State area. Rorschach has access to his own stuff and possibly some of Nite Owl's things (considering he knows where Nite Owl's lair is, and they were partners beforehand). The Joker would probably take over several New York gangs upon his arrival, both street and Mafia. But gangs are no problem for Rorschach, as we all know.

I'd also like to change one factor: Rorschach might go to try and convince Nite Owl to help take down the Joker if things get real bad.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-07, 11:54 PM
I'd have to go with Rorschach. Unless he gets too angry and makes some fatal mistake. The Joker is clever and not to be underestimated; he knew enough about Batman to know that he's "soft" on criminals. If he knew anything about Rorschach, he would most certainly use different tactics, since Rorschach isn't the sort to give criminals any benefit of the doubt, second chances, or well, anything but death.

Starscream
2009-03-07, 11:54 PM
In a straight up hand to hand fight, Rorschach would win. The Joker has never been portrayed as much of a combatant.

However, that is because he doesn't need to be. I'd say he's a lot smarter than Rorschach is, especially considering that the latter fell into a fairly obvious trap. Certainly more obvious than the many Xanatos Gambits Ledger's Joker sets up in Dark Knight.

I guess it's sort of an inversion of the old "Batman vs Superman" debate. Sure, Supes can reduce Bats to his component molecules, but only if Batman doesn't see him coming in time to plan.

In a knock down drag out fight Rorschach would dominate. But ten bucks says Joker will find a way to win without it ever coming to that.

Or they might hit it off. Who knows, Rorschach might want to learn the pencil trick for himself. It certainly seems like something he'd do.

Ascension
2009-03-07, 11:58 PM
Or they might hit it off. Who knows, Rorschach might want to learn the pencil trick for himself. It certainly seems like something he'd do.

Rorschach/Joker OTP?

Artemician
2009-03-07, 11:58 PM
I read it. I just ignored it for the purposes of having more to say than Rorshack would murder ledger before finishing his breakfast and move on to some more challenging task like taking a whiz without getting it all over his hands.
It's people like you who muck up Vs threads (or indeed, threads in general) so much.

If you don't agree with the boundaries set by the OP, take it to a new thread. Don't clog up existing threads with irrelevant posts.

Finn Solomon
2009-03-08, 12:06 AM
Awesome...

Now ever since someone came up with this idea not too long ago, I'd always wanted to think this one through.

Fighting Ability

The Joker has a stunning capacity for violence, being skilled in the handling of sidearms, rifles, RPGs and various knives. He goes toe-to-toe with the Batman and although he loses, it's quite close and there's no shame in that.

However, Rorschach just edges it here. I am reminded of a quote from Terry Pratchett's Night Watch, in which Captain Sam Vimes recalls a bar fighter whose particular genius lies in the ability to see a weapon in absolutely anything, be it a wall, a piece of paper or a fruit. Rorschach is similar. When he's surrounded in the house by an entire SWAT Team, he takes them on with just his grappling gun and a tin of hairspray, which he improvises to make a freakin' flamethrower. While in prison, he kills Big Figure's henchmen easily despite being backed into a corner. Rorschach is a superb hand to hand combatant and is only taken out by Ozymandias, the smartest man in the world. If they met head on, Rorschach would overpower the Joker. However, this contest isn't all about fighting skill...

Moral Philosophy

The Joker revels in chaos and destruction and the tearing down of all that gives people hope in human nature. In the words of Heath Ledger, "A sociopathic, mass-murdering clown with zero empathy." He feels no emotion beyond hate and hilarity, he cares nothing for the lives of others and is perfectly willing to slaughter hundreds of innocents to prove a point, the point being that at their hearts, people are evil. The anarchist extreme, there are no lengths the Joker is not willing to go to.

Rorschach's moral outlook is undermined by his massive personality and mental disorders, which he claims he remains unaffected from. An moral absolutist, he sees the world in terms of absolute black and white. No shades of grey, no compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon. If people do wrong, they must be punished. All crimes must not go unpunished, whether it's Ozymandias murdering a city of three million or the cancer-ridden Moloch taking a panacea, albeit an illegal one, in a desperate attempt to relieve the pain of his suffering. Rorschach goes to great lengths to punish criminals in all shapes and forms, symbolised by his answer to the passing of the Keene Act, a dead multiple rapist delivered to the doorstep of a police station along with a note stating "Never!"

So, two titanic forces clash, although they are not in opposition. They fuel our combatants, although in different ways. The Joker doesn't care that Rorschach will probably kill him if he gets the chance, and to Rorschach the Joker's crimes are just reasons why he must die. He will not be persuaded to subscribe to the Joker's philosophy, but neither will the Joker care about Rorschach's. A draw in this department.

Smarts

The Joker's fractured mind is able to come up with plots of Byzantine intricacy, although they verge on the unbelievable at times. So many things could have gone wrong at any given moment in his plans to terrorise Gotham. However, I suspect the Joker will not care. In his own words, he makes it up as he goes along. If his incredibly complex plots are fouled up, the Joker will deftly improvise with the speed of a gymnast leaping from one pole to another. In his insanity the Joker is a very, very cunning and dangerous opponent, who even if outsmarted, can rally back with a plan B which is stunning in its audacity.

Rorschach is a very intelligent man, as evidenced by his test scores and psych evaluation both as a child and as a convict. However, his natural intelligence is undermined by his crippling psychological disorders, which he claims to remain unaffected by. Rorschach naively believes President Truman and his father to be "good guys" with little supporting evidence, focuses on his far-fetched theory of a mask-killer even though nobody cared about masks, repeatedly terrorised Moloch and accused him of being the big bad even though it was clear he was little more than a broken down wreck. I suspect that in a battle of wits, the Joker would be able to confuse and mystify Rorschach, who pursues the path that seems the most obvious to him and him alone, and refuses to consider other possibilities.

Allies

Rorschach is bereft of his tenuous allies. The Comedian is dead, Doc Manhattan is off-planet, Dan Dreiberg refuses to come out of retirement, Ozymandias can barely hide his sneer when he looks at him and the Silk Spectre regards him as little more than a monster. However, that's just the way he likes it. Although he appreciated Nite Owl's help when taking on the underworld, he made it clear he was perfectly willing to go it alone when Dan quit.

The Joker has his usual underlings and followers, but they are not the best backup. According to Batman, "...a paranoid schizophrenic. The kind of mind the Joker attracts." Anybody working for the Clown Prince is either insane or just in it for the money, and they are easy meat to Rorschach, who will wade through them like Godzilla in Tokyo. So in summation, Rorschach has no allies and the Joker has poor ones, but they will not affect the final outcome in the least.

Final Score

Draw, as expected. If it came to a fight, Rorschach. If it came to one trying to outsmart the other, Joker. However, I think the more likely result would be the two freaks tearing down New York around our ears as they both perish in the struggle.


Well theres far too many variables. No specific environment is given for the fight and neither is the arsenal to which each person has access. However, overall, I would have to say Rorschach.

"April 1st, 10:06 PM, Guy with green hair and a purple suit asks me if I want to know how he got his scars. Told him I didn't care. Gave him bigger scars."

Also, am I the only one who is kinda pissed that too many people pronounced it (Roh-shak) in the movie?

That's just brilliant. I would like to quote that for my signature.

1488
2009-03-08, 12:09 AM
It's people like you who muck up Vs threads (or indeed, threads in general) so much.

If you don't agree with the boundaries set by the OP, take it to a new thread. Don't clog up existing threads with irrelevant posts.

You are right. It was foolish of me to try to inject creativity of thought into this thread. It's not like we want to read actually interesting things around here.

afroakuma
2009-03-08, 12:12 AM
"April 1st, 10:06 PM, Guy with green hair and a purple suit asks me if I want to know how he got his scars. Told him I didn't care. Gave him bigger scars."

That is epic. :smallbiggrin:

The Neoclassic
2009-03-08, 12:21 AM
You are right. It was foolish of me to try to inject creativity of thought into this thread. It's not like we want to read actually interesting things around here.

I think that Dr. Manhattan would beat up both of them! He's a freaking atomic bomb, people, and both of them are just sketchy weirdos..

See what I did there? Seriously, though, ignoring the rules isn't a sign of being clever or interesting, it's a sign of being disrespectful. Also, I won't waste further time arguing with you, so don't bother trying. :smallbiggrin:

Finn Solomon: I really liked your detailed analysis. Well done! I'd also like to second your approval of what PirateJesus said on the matter.

BRC
2009-03-08, 12:33 AM
So far, it looks like Rorschach either wins or ties, and I have to agree. The thing about the joker, is he likes to have fun. He goes up against batman because it's fun, and because he knows that if he loses, he'll get sent to Arkham, he will escape, and he'll get to have fun with bats again. If he assumes the same thing with Rorschach, he'll end up being thrown under a train or something.

Now, here is another situation that I think would be interesting.


Bruce Wayne sat in his hospital bed, recovering from burns. Gordon looked at him. The Batman spoke "I need to get out of here, The Joker is plotting somthing, we need to stop him." Gordon looked nervous "Well, actually, you see, the fed's have brought in a specialist to handle the Joker. I've heard he's quite good, he's got lots of experience."
Wayne grunted "Really. He'll have to do, what's his name"
At this moment the door opened, a large man walked in, grinning. A coal glowed on the end of his cigar in open defiance of the "No Smoking" signs. A cheery yellow badge stood out on his otherwise dark leather clothing. The Man exhaled a cloud of smoke and with a spoke through a grin.
"Call me Eddie."

Finn Solomon
2009-03-08, 12:38 AM
Finn Solomon: I really liked your detailed analysis. Well done! I'd also like to second your approval of what PirateJesus said on the matter.

Thank you very much, it's much appreciated. :smallsmile:

Ravens_cry
2009-03-08, 12:39 AM
If Joker expects Rorschach to have Batsies unwillingness to kill him, then he is in for a rude awakening. If he survives the first encounter, likely all things considered, then things start to get. . .interesting. Rorschach is clever with improvised weapons, his tactics are brutal,and he doesn't play, he kills. But he is also very single minded. He doesn't seem to be very good at getting in peoples heads, figuring out what they might do. He likes to think he serves Justice, but honestly, he is just a killer. This directness could be said to be both an advantage and disadvantage with Joker. He is unlikely to be distracted by Jokers games, there is no one the Joker can threaten, no one he loves the Joker can harm. He will kill Joker if he can. I would feel sorry for the Joker if he decides to cut Rorschach's 'face'. That sounds to me like it would be a serious berserker button.

afroakuma
2009-03-08, 12:40 AM
Now, I think the Joker would actually have a shot at this.

He'd realize Rorschach is exactly the opposite of Batman, and set him up so that Rorschach executes one of his goons in front of eyewitnesses, with the police nearby. The Joker would exploit the law to imprison the vigilante nobody wants, and then gleefully torture the public, mocking them for betraying the one man who could save them.

Rorschach would eventually get loose, of course, but I expect by then that the Joker would have achieved his goal.

Kris on a Stick
2009-03-08, 12:42 AM
Who says Joker will assume so? The first thing the Joker will do when he enters a new city will be to find out more about the local Vigilante population. When he finds out that the only active vigilante is an insane killer who kills and is insano, Joker changes his tactics. He'll still want to have fun with the Inkblot though, 'cause Joker's like that, but that doesn't mean he'll assume Rorschach would let him live.

On a side note though, The Comedian + The Joker = Awesome

WNxHasoroth
2009-03-08, 12:42 AM
You are right. It was foolish of me to try to inject creativity of thought into this thread. It's not like we want to read actually interesting things around here.

Irrelevant, the Imperium of Man wins anyway.

Nevrmore
2009-03-08, 01:03 AM
"Funny clown."

Rorschach called above the gentle winds rustling the myriad of trees that enclosed like a maze around him in the park. He walked slowly, but casually, in a straight line, knowing that somewhere the crazy white-faced murderer was watching him. He only had to find out where.

"Funny clown tells jokes. I heard joke once."

His eyes shifted to and fro manically, but his head kept straight and stiff. Every moving leaf, every twitching twig, vibrated in his gut. He silently calculated the possibility of the psycho being in any of the trees, his hand posed to reach for his grappling gun.

"A man goes to the doctor. Says he's depressed. He says life seems harsh and cruel."

The Joker peered at the grimy, brown trenchcoat back from a distance, giggling to himself. The fool had no idea where the clown prince of crime was. He was free to take his time with him.

"Says he feels alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain."

The Joker gingerly plucked an acorn from the tree and took careful, practiced aim. He wound his arm back and threw the nut towards the detective.

"The doctor says, 'The treatment is simple.'"

Rorschach heard something rattle against the tree near him. In an instant, he had turned and pulled the gun from his coat, firing the claws into the trunk in a burst of gas and a loud report. Several birds nesting in the tree flew away into the distance. The Joker snickered as he uses the distraction to jump down and move closer to his prey.

"Hurm."

Rorschach retracted the line and sticks the gun back into his jacket, inspecting the tree. He spied an acorn next to a dead tree branch on the ground. The Joker watched him stuffing a hand into his coat before he stood and began his slow, steady walk once again. The detective continued.

"'The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go see him and he should pick you up.'"

The Joker's movements were quiet, but quick. He closed the distance between himself and his pursuer shortly. The clown prince reached into his petticoat and pulled out a knife.

"The man bursts into tears. He says, 'But doctor...'"

The Joker gets right on top of him. He lifted the knife high into the air, smiled insanely, and plunged downward.

Blood splattered onto the ground. The Joker coughed, the knife clattered on the rocky road. The clown prince looked down at the tree branch that Rorschach had thrust through his own coat and into his adversary's abdomen.

Rorschach turned to him. The Joker couldn't see it through the mask, but he could feel the burning gaze piercing through him. The clown prince of crime smiled as he felt blood dribbling down his chin, and spoke.

"'...I am Pagliacci.'" He giggled, and coughed blood out in spurts.

Rorschach pulled the branch from out of The Joker's stomach. He fell backwards onto the ground. The vigilante bent down, pulling the clown prince up by his neck.

"Met a good Comedian." He said. "You're no good comedian." He reached back and plunged a fist straight into The Joker's face, knocking him instantly unconscious.

Round goes to: Rorschach.

Trizap
2009-03-08, 01:29 AM
"Funny clown."

*snip*.

epic. :smallamused:

DrakebloodIV
2009-03-08, 03:38 AM
You are right. It was foolish of meI am a fool to try to inject creativity Egocentricity of thought into this thread. It's not like we want to read actually uninteresting things around here. Also, I apologize for my blatant disregard of both the thread rules and forum rules and my repetitious trolling.

Fixed it for you.

revolver kobold
2009-03-08, 03:59 AM
Top stuff Nevrmore.

I'm going to have to say that Rorschach would win this one. But given that the Joker isn't above killing or maiming hundreds to make a point, or for the purposes of some crazy convoluted scheme, it would be a rather long and drawn out fight.

One that would probably leave Rorschach in an even worse mental state that he is already in (if that's actually possible).

DrakebloodIV
2009-03-08, 04:03 AM
Question, if Joker used psychology to make a sane and moral man use insane and amoral tactics to find him (Dent, almost Batman) then why cant he make an insane and amoral man use sane and moral ones? Also, why wouldn't Ro and Jo just team up? They appear to have the same goal for endgame, if completely different methodology.

"Never compromise, even in the face of armageddon"

-Rorsarch

Icewalker
2009-03-08, 04:27 AM
They aren't really the same, and wouldn't team up. The Joker just wants to cause chaos, Rorschach thinks that society is corrupt and if anything, too chaotic already. They'd be pretty at odds.

I'd say that really what it comes down to is whether the Joker can figure out the details of how Rorschach thinks before Rorschach manages to get a face to face confrontation, because otherwise we get Nevrmore's awesome interpretation, ending with the Joker on the ground with something the equivalent of a tree branch through his torso.

Trog
2009-03-08, 04:36 AM
"Rorschach's Journal, August 22, 198X: Clown tried to show me magic trick. Clown now dead. Magic is dead."
This. :smallbiggrin: I'd like to think he would have tossed him down an elevator shaft. :smallwink:

EvilDMMk3
2009-03-08, 01:49 PM
I would give this to Rorchach. Why? Because Ledger's joker would find the temptation of a face to face confrontation too tempting. And as soon as he has one, Rorchach will kill him.

Nevrmore
2009-03-08, 02:27 PM
Question, if Joker used psychology to make a sane and moral man use insane and amoral tactics to find him (Dent, almost Batman) then why cant he make an insane and amoral man use sane and moral ones? Also, why wouldn't Ro and Jo just team up? They appear to have the same goal for endgame, if completely different methodology.

"Never compromise, even in the face of armageddon"

-Rorsarch
The Joker is a criminal. To Rorschach, that means that their goals are as far apart as they could possibly be. The Joker's is to cause chaos in a corrupt world. Rorschach's is to kill The Joker.

Ascension
2009-03-08, 02:33 PM
I could see a Joker/Comedian teamup, but Icewalker and Nevrmore are right... Rorschach may be crazy, the Joker may be crazy, but it ain't the same sort of crazy.

hanzo66
2009-03-08, 02:35 PM
Clown outsmart Rorschach.

Rorschach brutalizes clown.

Clown may use gun, but where's fun?

Clown may use convoluted Gambits.

Rorschach will follow red herrings after red herrings (beat around retired villains).

Rorschach good at using stuff around him. May use Magic Tricks of own.

lisiecki
2009-03-08, 03:42 PM
I'd give it to Rorschach, ESPECIALLY if the Joker makes the mistake of assuming that any superhero would be as merciful to him as Batman.
"Rorschach's Journal, August 22, 198X: Clown tried to show me magic trick. Clown now dead. Magic is dead."

Well, by 1985, its well known in the superhero community that Rorschach drops relatively harmless people down elevator shafts.

I dont think ANYONE would assume that Walter would be merciful

GoC
2009-03-09, 05:54 AM
We should bear in mind that a lot of the Joker's genius is plot-powered and won't apply in other universes.

WitchSlayer
2009-03-09, 05:59 AM
Hmm, Gotham implies that it's the DC Universe, and since we don't have any mention of New York in the Nolanverse I will assume that the Justice Society are operating out of NY still. So, my round goes to: The Justice Society of America.

Edit: Alternatively, Question and Red Hood.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-09, 07:10 AM
I...I thought the Red Hood was a disguised used by the Joker the night he suffered his accident and became the Joker.:smallconfused:

Verruckt
2009-03-09, 01:07 PM
I don't think Joker's usual gambit within a gambit technique would be sufficient to throw off Rorschach. It works on Batman because Batman wants to capture the Joker and prevent him from doing horrible thing X. Rorschach on the other hand has the simple objective of "Kill the Joker" and will maim his way through the underworld until he finds him, and then what Nevrmore realized so nicely will come to pass.

Ultimate Matchup?

Frank Castle & Rorschach vs. Edward Blake & The Joker

There would not be much of a city left with those 4 running around mark my words.

GoC
2009-03-09, 01:40 PM
There would not be much of a city left with those 4 running around mark my words.

That obviously depends on the city. If it's in the city of Las Vegas in the CSI universe then it'll merely result in the arrest of four dangerous criminals in one day.:smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2009-03-09, 03:24 PM
That obviously depends on the city. If it's the in Las Vegas in the CSI universe then it'll merely result in the arrests of four dangerous criminals in one day.:smallbiggrin:

Miami, it results in the world's worst post mortem one liners.

Ankh Morpok...

Hoo boy. Ankh Morpok would be... interesting.

TengYt
2009-03-09, 04:49 PM
Honestly, taking down scum bags like the Joker is essentially Raw Shark's sole purpose in the world. He'll get to the Joker and kill him...even if he has to break the fingers of every gangster in New York first.

hanzo66
2009-03-09, 06:08 PM
Frank Castle & Rorschach vs. Edward Blake & The Joker

Blake, though a nasty individual indeed, would probably want a reason, no matter how flimsy or corrupt, before he hurts people. Probably Joker goes beyond his own Standards and he'd be willing to take him down.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-03-09, 06:56 PM
If Joker expects Rorschach to have Batsies unwillingness to kill him, then he is in for a rude awakening. If he survives the first encounter, likely all things considered, then things start to get. . .interesting.
This is where I see it, also. The first meeting(s) will be the ones which matter, since both are homicidal maniacs.

The Joker didn't start off trusting Batman to not kill him, he started testing him as a means of furthering his own psychosis: The need to unveil the bad within passably good people.

If the Joker lives past the first encounter, my money is on the Joker. Rather than facing a vigilante with an aversion to killing he'll be facing a vigilante with no aversion to killing. And he'll know it. There's nothing to reveal there and so no need for elaborate tests of the aversion.

But it's possible that Rorschach simply offs the Joker on their first meeting. Both are strong, and good in-fighters, but Rorschach has the edge in my opinion.

WitchSlayer
2009-03-09, 08:47 PM
I...I thought the Red Hood was a disguised used by the Joker the night he suffered his accident and became the Joker.:smallconfused:

I'm stealing the "Red Hood is an Alternate Universe Joker" from Batman: The Brave and the Bold.

Verruckt
2009-03-09, 10:53 PM
Blake, though a nasty individual indeed, would probably want a reason, no matter how flimsy or corrupt, before he hurts people. Probably Joker goes beyond his own Standards and he'd be willing to take him down.

Perhaps if he were being paid a great deal of money? Enough green is usually all it takes to motivate someone with ethics as flexible as the Comedian's.

Rotipher
2009-03-09, 11:37 PM
I don't think the Comedian would've survived as long as he did, working with corrupt politicians and mercenaries and other scumbags, if he wasn't hyper-alert for betrayal. Thirty seconds' conversation with the Joker would set off so many alarm bells in Eddy Blake's head, he'd probably end up taking a sniper-shot at the Clown Prince of Crime from half a mile away, rather than risk working with such a psycho.

chiasaur11
2009-03-10, 12:18 AM
I don't think the Comedian would've survived as long as he did, working with corrupt politicians and mercenaries and other scumbags, if he wasn't hyper-alert for betrayal. Thirty seconds' conversation with the Joker would set off so many alarm bells in Eddy Blake's head, he'd probably end up taking a sniper-shot at the Clown Prince of Crime from half a mile away, rather than risk working with such a psycho.

Plus, as hard as he tries to bury it, Eddie still has the tiniest bit of humanity. Adrian's plan made forced him to confront it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Joker had a similar effect. Man is the abyss given flesh.

Divine Comedy
2009-03-10, 12:44 AM
Going to jump back to the original topic for a second. Rorschach would win for a simple reason: The Joker wouldn't take him seriously. He'd find a man running around in an ink-blot mask hilarious, and would attempt to capture him. What's more, Rorschach is a "ginger" (not trying to insult anyone, but Joker might find it hilarious if he captured him.) which he'd find even more hilarious due to Rorschach's gritty in-persona voice.

Joker would be able to outsmart him, sure, but he'd slip up trying to wring all the comedy out of the situation. Rorschach simply would see what a serious threat the man is, and kill him at his earliest convenience. One minute he'd be laughing, the next it would be "That's not funny... that's not..." dead (if anyone ever saw the Batman Beyond movie that I'm referencing).

That's just my take. You could also argue that Joker is unstoppable since even the Specter failed to kill him. And Rorschach... well.... DO IT!!!!

commander43
2009-03-10, 02:23 AM
Personally, I must go for the Joker. The Joker is, obviously and intentionally a close match for Batman. He is intended as a great challenge to Batman.

Now, I know that Rorschach is pretty damn awesome. But if this thread were Batman v. Rorschach, do you think there would be a chance in hell for the man? Batman would straight up bitch-slap Rorschach, just because of the ridiculous difference in general power levels between the DC universe and the Watchmen universe. And Schach isn't even the toughest hero in Watchmen. It seems like the Comedian could probably take him in his prime, and Ozymandias obviously can. And if Batman went up against Ozy? I would probably still vote for Batman on that one.

People are saying that the Joker wouldn't take Schach seriously, that he would think Schach to be merciful. Somehow, I doubt it. The Joker is always crazy prepared, no matter how crazy he seems. He would know all about Rorschach's tactics and style and everything before taking him on. I would have to say the Joker wins, though of course, even in the face of Armageddon, Rorschach would never compromise.

In addition, Joker never kills the Bat because what would be the point of living without the Bat? It's quite possible that Jokes has been holding back this whole time just to prolong the game with the Bat. And with Rorschach, he'd have no such reservations.

Vuzzmop
2009-03-10, 02:49 AM
Rorschach would thwart the Joker's plans, and come very close to killing him in the following hand to hand brutality. But ultimately, the Joker will survive, because...come on, you know this.

Jack_Banzai
2009-03-10, 06:53 AM
A lot of good points made so far. I would honestly have to say that I can only envision a draw for these two titans of insanity that results in both of their deaths. Probably the kind of thing where Rorschach is coming out on top, then Joker does something crazy brilliant and inflicts a mortal wound, but Rorschach manages to do the same before he dies himself. Any other outcome would be an unfair legacy for either.

Although...

what happens to Rorschach is pretty unfair anyway.

Nevrmore, I liked your scenario a lot anyhow. Made me chuckle. :)

Divine Comedy
2009-03-11, 12:44 AM
Now for a different idea. Batman vs Ozymandias.

My take?

Veldt, I'm not some serial republic hero. I stopped you and your plans 36 minutes ago.

chiasaur11
2009-03-11, 12:51 AM
Now for a different idea. Batman vs Ozymandias.

My take?

Veldt, I'm not some serial republic hero. I stopped you and your plans 36 minutes ago.

38. Batman always gives some cushion time.

Also: He's the second most badass man in comics.

Dervag
2009-03-11, 01:09 AM
No, 36 minutes.Batman always gives some cushion time, but sometimes he needs the cushion time. Against a guy like Ozymandias, something's going to happen that forces him to need the cushion time.

Ganurath
2009-03-11, 01:46 AM
February 12th, 9:00 PM, Notorious criminal turned over to maximum security prison, known for high recruitment and death rates in followers. Expect surge in activity.
February 12th, 9:03 PM, Criminal escaped prison. Expect larger surge.
February 13th, 1:35 AM, Lost track of Joker, the above criminal. He seems to favor bladed weapons.
February 13th, 1:36 AM, Found out that in addition to bladed weapons, the Joker is a passionate arsonist.
...
March 11th, 10:09 PM, Thugs wearing clown masks start a riot using molotovs and shotguns at a homeless shelter. I ended the riot.
March 12th, 11:10 PM, More thugs, more masks, more riots. I noticed a pattern in both the location and the timing, and plan to intercept.
March 13th, 12:11 PM, I got a new journal after I started a bonfire. Inkblot was fun, but not THAT fun. I heard he has a friend who's pretty clever, though. I think I'll give him a whirl. Also, remember to pick up bacon, eggs, and replacement teeth in the morning.

lisiecki
2009-03-12, 11:10 AM
what happens to Rorschach is pretty unfair anyway.

Do we really need spoilers for this?
I mean it was 24 years ago.

Although im really not a good judge of this, I was once yelled at on a Tudor's fan board for revealing that Anne Boleyn was beheaded...

Finn Solomon
2009-03-12, 09:41 PM
Anne Boleyn was beheaded? Oh no, I haven't read that part yet! :smallamused:

Jack_Banzai
2009-03-14, 05:35 AM
what happens to Rorschach is pretty unfair anyway.

Do we really need spoilers for this?
I mean it was 24 years ago.

Although im really not a good judge of this, I was once yelled at on a Tudor's fan board for revealing that Anne Boleyn was beheaded...

*shrugs* Why chance it. Even less than I want to hear you bugging me about putting something in spoiler brackets, I really don't want a bunch of people breathing down my neck because I ruined something for them. And I really, really didn't want to hear you bugging me, so you can have some idea of how much I didn't want them bothering me either.

Greep
2009-03-14, 08:35 AM
I haven't seen the Dark Knight, cause I heard that other than ledger it was pretty much crap, but is the Joker really smarter than Rorschach? I mean, somehow Rorschach has survived as the only watchman still under a mask for god knows how long. And he's incredibly creative at spur of the moment decisions like with the makeshift spray can flamethrower or the boiling grease vat.

lisiecki
2009-03-14, 08:41 AM
*shrugs* Why chance it. Even less than I want to hear you bugging me about putting something in spoiler brackets, I really don't want a bunch of people breathing down my neck because I ruined something for them. And I really, really didn't want to hear you bugging me, so you can have some idea of how much I didn't want them bothering me either.

Hm

Didn't realize an honest question would bug you
My deepest apologies

lisiecki
2009-03-14, 08:46 AM
I haven't seen the Dark Knight, cause I heard that other than ledger it was pretty much crap, but is the Joker really smarter than Rorschach? I mean, somehow Rorschach has survived as the only watchman still under a mask for god knows how long. And he's incredibly creative at spur of the moment decisions like with the makeshift spray can flamethrower or the boiling grease vat.

Smarter? No not really, but Rorschach opperated his best against people whos plans he knew, and could manipulate.
The Joker takes that advantage away from him.
I think the Jokers main advantage is that Mr J is more than willing to send wave after wave of flunky's to there death against Rorschach.

Honestly, In my mental image the Joker isn't a fighter at all, he would have the flunky's take Ror out, or Send Stripper Harley Quinn after him

Talic
2009-03-14, 09:04 AM
Please note: The Heath Ledger Joker didn't treat Batman like he treated everyone. He behaved as he did because he wanted to corrupt him (in theory). Batman defined Joker. In a weird way, Batman's style of crime CREATED the Joker.

It was Batman's incorruptible nature that drove the Joker to expose himself, to render himself vulnerable.

Ask yourself this: Judges, cops, orderlies, criminals, news reporters, and what-have-you...

Did they have a chance?

Car bombs, poisoned booze, shots fired through second party associates, Misdirection, sudden shots without warning... That was Joker's M.O. versus anyone that WASN'T Batman. In the comics, Joker is the villain that Villains feared. Heath Ledger brought that to life.

No, even against Batman, he turned an entire city against an incorruptible guardian. Against a blameless individual...

How badly do you think public sentiment would have been turned against someone that left a bloody trail himself across the city?

No, if Joker went after Rorschach, Rorschach would end up framed. In prison. Or dead, poisoned or hit by a bus. Criminals attacked Rorschach. Criminals were terrified of the Joker.

Joker had the intellectual edge. And, with the way Joker fought, that rendered every other edge pointless.

There were heroes from the Watchmen that could tangle with the Joker and win. The World's Smartest Man, for example. Dr. Manhattan, obviously.

But Rorschach? He had far and away the greatest cool factor in that movie... But he wouldn't have stood toe to toe with the joker and lived.

Ganurath
2009-03-14, 10:33 AM
No, if Joker went after Rorschach, Rorschach would end up ... dead, poisoned or hit by a bus.Or? Why not all three?

GoC
2009-03-14, 10:36 AM
I think the Jokers main advantage is that Mr J is more than willing to send wave after wave of flunky's to there death against Rorschach.

But Gotham is the only place in existance where he'd be able to recruit flunkies.

Talic: The criminals of our world would just laugh at him, then kill him.
Almost everything he does is plot-powered. Remove plot and you'll find he can't sneak hundreds of gallons of gasoline into a boat. Remove plot and he can't recruit people. Remove plot and he can't even get around town without being recognized and having police surrounding him. Remove plot and that scene where you find out he has disabled a group of armed and alert SWAT dudes without alerting anyone becomes completely and utterly impossible. Remove plot and he can't even get that much explosive without alerting the police. I could go on but my point has been made, the Joker cannot exist in a universe that doesn't actively support him.

lisiecki
2009-03-14, 10:47 AM
But Gotham is the only place in existance where he'd be able to recruit flunkies.

Talic: The criminals of our world would just laugh at him, then kill him.
Almost everything he does is plot-powered. Remove plot and you'll find he can't sneak hundreds of gallons of gasoline into a boat. Remove plot and he can't recruit people. Remove plot and he can't even get around town without being recognized and having police surrounding him. Remove plot and that scene where you find out he has disabled a group of armed and alert SWAT dudes without alerting anyone becomes completely and utterly impossible. Remove plot and he can't even get that much explosive without alerting the police. I could go on but my point has been made, the Joker cannot exist in a universe that doesn't actively support him.

Well, Yes, I aggre with you on that.
I admit its been 10+ years since i read watchmen.
But, Once you reveal to your shrink, that you left a pedophile in a burning house your not going to end up in Gen Pop in a prison.
One man dosn't survive a prison riot where hes a prize.

Rorshack and the Joker both have uberplot powers.
Also in the New Yourk of either Watchmen or Dark Knight, Im sure that the Joker could recrut a small army of thugs and freaks. If the fight takes place in the Dark Knight world he already has plenty.

Also Stripper Harley Quinn

GoC
2009-03-14, 11:08 AM
But, Once you reveal to your shrink, that you left a pedophile in a burning house your not going to end up in Gen Pop in a prison.
One man dosn't survive a prison riot where hes a prize.

Anyone who kills pedophiles is pretty popular in Gen. Pop. prison.:smalltongue:

lisiecki
2009-03-14, 11:22 AM
Anyone who kills pedophiles is pretty popular in Gen. Pop. prison.:smalltongue:

Knowing little to nothing about prison politics
I have to assume that the popularity of a guy who kills pedophiles, is balanced out by the fact that he put quite a few of those people in the prision.

Also knowing little about mental health, I have to assume that Rorschachs therapy sessions would get him some where other than in with the rest of the criminals

Nevrmore
2009-03-14, 12:01 PM
Please note: The Heath Ledger Joker didn't treat Batman like he treated everyone. He behaved as he did because he wanted to corrupt him (in theory). Batman defined Joker. In a weird way, Batman's style of crime CREATED the Joker.

Snip
The Joker has no job to do under these circumstances. The entire city is already against Rorschach at the start of the story.

And I don't see why you think that criminals would attack Rorschach. Everyone in Happy Harry's is completely petrified when he enters both times in the novel.

JaxGaret
2009-03-14, 01:10 PM
I don't even understand why this is a question. The Joker would kill Rorschach off without breaking a sweat.

The Joker STANDS UP TO BATMAN AND HOLDS HIS OWN. The frakking Batman. Rorschach is nothing compared to Batman, the same way that he is nothing compared to Ozymandias (who is pretty much on a level with Batman).

I'm not saying that Rorschach isn't cool, he most certainly is an awesome character, but he just isn't in the same league with the Joker.

kpenguin
2009-03-14, 01:20 PM
I have yet to see Joker win an actual fistfight against Batman.

Sholos
2009-03-14, 01:37 PM
Let alone last very long. Joker has never been about the physical confrontation part.


Also Stripper Harley Quinn

What is this Stripper Harley Quinn, and why wouldn't Rorschach just kill her?

JaxGaret
2009-03-14, 02:08 PM
I have yet to see Joker win an actual fistfight against Batman.

Read the OP again. We're not talking about a fistfight.

kpenguin
2009-03-14, 02:46 PM
Read the OP again. We're not talking about a fistfight.

Yes, but the phrase "HOLD HIS OWN" implies an actual one-on-one brawl, an implication further helped along by using the fight between Ozymandias and Rorschach as an example.

I was simply responding to your post, not commenting on the fight as a whole. I misinterpreted your statement, but you must admit that your statement lends itself to that interpretation.

Jack_Banzai
2009-03-14, 03:35 PM
Hm

Didn't realize an honest question would bug you
My deepest apologies

Ok, then the answer is yes. The spoiler brackets were not only necessary but vital.

Trizap
2009-03-14, 04:15 PM
Those who say Joker could beat Rorshach are spouting blasphemy.

Rorshach can just "take off his face" and go undercover, most of his costume isn't even out of the ordinary clothing, that and Rorshach took out an entire SWAT team with like a couple things you can find in an apartment with only less than a minute of preparation, killed a guy using a toilet, a mugger with some rope and put fourteen people into hospitals in bars full of dangerous criminals. He can improvise and adapt to any situation presented to him and can pick up anything around him and use it as a weapon.

"Smartest Man in the World" Ozymandias could only put him in jail, and even that backfired- he killed a guy with cooking oil, broke out of his cell just by taunting an enemy during a riot, and Rorshach's Journal may or may not have foiled Ozymandias's plot.

The Joker is WAAAAAAY to focused on having fun, while the Joker is busy trying to make a punchline or concoct some scheme, Rorshach is just walking around town interrogating whatever criminal he finds, eventually getting his info..........

then when the Joker pulls some sadistic choice out of his hat to save someone or kill the Joker....Rorshach kills him, and leaves whatever in danger to their fate saying "its a small sacrifice to rid scum like that from the world"

The problem is that you are all assuming Batman and Rorshach work the same, Batman only takes out villains if he has good enough preparation, the Joker only holds his own against him because he forces the Batman to be proactive, to come in without any preparation when Batmans style is to be reactive, to observe how the Batman can beat his foe, to wait for the villain to strike, and figure out how they can be beaten in the meantime.

While Rorshach's style is to be proactive, he improvises well, the Batman does not. Rorshach will quickly improvise to the situation, he won't spend time thinking about how to beat people- he will just go beat them, the Jokers plans hinges on playing up his unpredictability, problem is Rorshach doesn't care about his unpredictability, he will quickly improvise and adapt to whatever the Joker throws at him, while ignoring his evil plans and just killing the guy.

The Batman cares about people, if he sees the Joker escaping while there are people in danger, he goes to rescue the people from the danger.

Rorshach, if he wound up in the same situation, wouldn't care. he would just kill the Joker, and go find the next criminal.

shortly put: where Batman sees danger to be stopped, Rorshach just sees a criminal to be put to justice.

that, and what can Joker do to Rorshach? he is this poor guy with no family or friends, everyone already hates him, he doesn't care about saving lives, only of disposing of human trash and his motto is "No Surrender. No Compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." That is right everyone, not even the end of the world will stop Rorshach from killing criminals. Not even Armageddon can change or phase Rorshach.

What makes you think the Joker can?

Tyrant
2009-03-14, 07:24 PM
Rorshach can just "take off his face" and go undercover, most of his costume isn't even out of the ordinary clothing, that and Rorshach took out an entire SWAT team with like a couple things you can find in an apartment with only less than a minute of preparation, killed a guy using a toilet, a mugger with some rope and put fourteen people into hospitals in bars full of dangerous criminals. He can improvise and adapt to any situation presented to him and can pick up anything around him and use it as a weapon.
There is an issue during the build up to Infinite Crisis (I'll have to dig it out if people want numbers on this) that has the Joker strolling around a hideout of the Royal Flush Gang. Many of them are dead and their leader is about to be killed by the Joker. There is no sign of any henchmen. I would rate the Royal Flush Gang above your average SWAT team. As for weapons, the Joker brings his own and they are usually quite lethal when he is planning to kill people.

"Smartest Man in the World" Ozymandias could only put him in jail, and even that backfired- he killed a guy with cooking oil, broke out of his cell just by taunting an enemy during a riot, and Rorshach's Journal may or may not have foiled Ozymandias's plot.
The end makes people think that maybe his plot falls apart (which is kind of a downer because that means nuclear holocaust all to prove that some crackpot in a mask doesn't know when to quit), but really what could have come of them running that? Some guy that the city fears claims the wealthiest man in the world killed the Comedian. Woo hoo. Stop the presses. If any reporter snoops around too much, Ozymandias will kill them. He'll run a PR campaign that clears his name to anyone that matters. He wins.

The Joker is WAAAAAAY to focused on having fun, while the Joker is busy trying to make a punchline or concoct some scheme, Rorshach is just walking around town interrogating whatever criminal he finds, eventually getting his info..........
Having fun with Batman. He knows Batman won't kill him. He shot Batgirl. I already mentioned the bit with the Royal Flush Gang all because Lex didn't recruit him into the society. He killed Alexander Luthor in a back alley. He sprayed him in the face with acid then shot him. He laughed while he did it. He will do the same to Rorshach, kill him without a second thought. Or at least try to anyway. He doesn't screw around when he knows his own life may be on the line.

The problem is that you are all assuming Batman and Rorshach work the same
No, the problem is that people are assuming that the Joker will assume they are the same. If he hears about Rorshach seriously injuring and killing underworld types, he won't use the same approach as he does with Batman. He is toying with Batman because it's fun. Rorshach clearly doesn't work the same way and would be no fun to the Joker. He would just kill him. Nothing elaborate. He is single minded, so luring him somewhere wouldn't be hard. Then just bring the building down around him.

While Rorshach's style is to be proactive, he improvises well, the Batman does not. Rorshach will quickly improvise to the situation, he won't spend time thinking about how to beat people- he will just go beat them, the Jokers plans hinges on playing up his unpredictability, problem is Rorshach doesn't care about his unpredictability, he will quickly improvise and adapt to whatever the Joker throws at him, while ignoring his evil plans and just killing the guy.
But Rorshach doesn't deal with guys who have an acid sprayer disguised as a flower on their jacket. Or that walk around with high explosives on them. Or that are crazy enough to lure him into a deathtrap that they themselves could easily get caught in. Rorshach is mostly seen beating up the kinds of guys the Joker and Batman's other rogues took out a long time ago in Gotham. If it somehow comes down to hand to hand combat, the Joker has lost. Before it ever comes to that, there is acid, a deadly joy buzzer, possibly poison gas, realistically anything in the room could be poisoned, explosives, and possibly henchmen (who presumably use guns). And of course the Joker isn't against using guns either. Someone like the Joker who seemingly sits around thinking up new ways to kill people for laughs is on an entirely different level from a child rapist and random underworld goons.

that, and what can Joker do to Rorshach? he is this poor guy with no family or friends, everyone already hates him, he doesn't care about saving lives, only of disposing of human trash
He can kill him, that's what he can do. Maybe he'll go for the low blow and try to kill Dan first, just to hit one of the handful of people Rorshach might care about. For the Joker, him possibly caring is enough.

and his motto is "No Surrender. No Compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." That is right everyone, not even the end of the world will stop Rorshach from killing criminals. Not even Armageddon can change or phase Rorshach.
I believe Dr. Manhatten "changed" Rorshach quite a bit because of that view. It just shows how absolutely single minded he is. The Joker has more or less figured out Batman, someone of considerably greater mental complexity. He killed Alexander Luthor simply because he didn't ask him to join the society. That was after killing several members of the Royal Flush Gang to find out what was going on. He will quite easily peg Rorshach for exactly what he is and act accordingly.

What makes you think the Joker can?
Quite simply because he is not like the regular criminals Rorshach deals with and Rorshach is very predictable in his approach to things. Against someone with real planning ability like the Joker (or like Ozymandias in Watchmen) Rorshach makes himself an easily manipulated variable.

GoC
2009-03-14, 08:20 PM
Does anyone want to address the problem I raised in my previous post?
How do we differentiate between plot-based powers (which are impossible without the universe bending over backwards for him) and actual skills?

Finn Solomon
2009-03-14, 08:21 PM
Let alone last very long. Joker has never been about the physical confrontation part.

What is this Stripper Harley Quinn, and why wouldn't Rorschach just kill her?

There's a book recently put out by DC about the Joker, I own it but can't quite recall the exact title. It's a take on the Joker and how he interacts with the rest of the Bat gallery of villains, with a look very reminiscent of Heath Ledger's portrayal. Anyway in one of the scenes you see a stripper performing on stage in tight red leather, only when she puts on her familiar jester's cap you realise it's Harley Quinn.

lisiecki
2009-03-15, 12:15 PM
Does anyone want to address the problem I raised in my previous post?
How do we differentiate between plot-based powers (which are impossible without the universe bending over backwards for him) and actual skills?

I do maintain that Rorschach's survival through Watchmen is also deus ex machina to a large degree.


What is this Stripper Harley Quinn, and why wouldn't Rorschach just kill her?

Like Finn said, after Dark Knight DC put out a book just called The Joker. It takes place in the same continuity of movie, although im not sure if its cannon.



Ed Nigma is an information broker, Killer Croc is a boxer with a skin condition and filed teeth, and Harley is some sort of stripper/hit woman.
(im not making moral judgments , the first time we see her, she at a strip club performing, later, shes killing people, and were lead to believe shes good at it.)

http://chromix.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jokerhc081.jpg
http://www.zonanegativa.com/2008b/0074.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/lisieckiart/JokerHC024.jpg



I think that's why the Joker wins. The Joker dosnt have to kill Rorschach, he has to kill him, pull off a crime and get away with it, make Rorschach question his morality.
For Rorshack to win, he has to kill the joker (By 1985, that's what he dose)
And the joker plays well with others... well relatively speaking

Verruckt
2009-03-15, 12:36 PM
I'm a bit perplexed as to why everyone seems to think that Mr. J would spend no time skipping from "Oh hey, dude in an inkblot mask." to "I know this guy kills criminals, so I'll shoot him."

We keep bringing up that the reason Joker spends so much time on Bats is that he wants to break him. He wants to twist and distort and mutilate batman's moral code just for kicks, because of the challenge. Rorschach would be fascinating to Joker if this is an accurate estimation of his motives. He's a guy who sees the world in total black and white, absolute good and evil. Joker thinks there are no such absolutes, he would love to toy with Rawshark. Sure he might be more cautious than with Bats, especially if he gets intel on Warshack's more murderous tendancies, but I really doubt he would outright kill him because of what an interesting, enjoyable puzzle he represents.

Of course for Joker this may well be a fatal mistake, because Loveschach is a zealot in the truest sense of the word, and he will brook no questioning of his code or internal conflict. Any attempt by J to engender such a thing will only cement in his mind that he is a criminal who needs to die.

Graymayre
2009-03-15, 12:43 PM
I'm a bit perplexed as to why everyone seems to think that Mr. J would spend no time skipping from "Oh hey, dude in an inkblot mask." to "I know this guy kills criminals, so I'll shoot him."

We keep bringing up that the reason Joker spends so much time on Bats is that he wants to break him. He wants to twist and distort and mutilate batman's moral code just for kicks, because of the challenge. Rorschach would be fascinating to Joker if this is an accurate estimation of his motives. He's a guy who sees the world in total black and white, absolute good and evil. Joker thinks there are no such absolutes, he would love to toy with Rawshark. Sure he might be more cautious than with Bats, especially if he gets intel on Warshack's more murderous tendancies, but I really doubt he would outright kill him because of what an interesting, enjoyable puzzle he represents.

Of course for Joker this may well be a fatal mistake, because Loveschach is a zealot in the truest sense of the word, and he will brook no questioning of his code or internal conflict. Any attempt by J to engender such a thing will only cement in his mind that he is a criminal who needs to die.

I've never been more happy for someone to beat me to saying something. :smallsmile:



I think that's why the Joker wins. The Joker dosnt have to kill Rorschach, he has to kill him, pull off a crime and get away with it, make Rorschach question his morality.


Personally, I don't think it's that simple. IMO it may even be impossible. How do you have someone question their morality if they were so uncompromising that they would let the world blow up for it?

lisiecki
2009-03-15, 01:20 PM
I'm a bit perplexed as to why everyone seems to think that Mr. J would spend no time skipping from "Oh hey, dude in an inkblot mask." to "I know this guy kills criminals, so I'll shoot him."


See, for B:TAS or for the 60's batman, I can see those jokers getting a good laugh out of it.

If the Heath Ledger Joker came across a guy who was well known for killing criminals, I don't think he would hesitate to empty an M-16 in to him

chiasaur11
2009-03-15, 01:26 PM
I've never been more happy for someone to beat me to saying something. :smallsmile:



Personally, I don't think it's that simple. IMO it may even be impossible. How do you have someone question their morality if they were so uncompromising that they would let the world blow up for it?

Heck, we've seen the Joker's big corrupty plans fail. A lot.

He couldn't even get hardened criminals to play his game. With a guy as dedicated as Rorschach, breaking is going to be impossible. He'd die first.

lisiecki
2009-03-15, 01:33 PM
Heck, we've seen the Joker's big corrupty plans fail. A lot.

He couldn't even get hardened criminals to play his game. With a guy as dedicated as Rorschach, breaking is going to be impossible. He'd die first.

Granted.
But i don't think thats the only way the Joker can "win"
The Joker would able to win by going on a crime spree or building up some sort of criminal network, or kill him. or do the whole corrupting thing.
But im fairly sure after the events in The Dark Knight, he would be over that plan.
The movie Joker is far from stuped.
And dosn't strike me as being all that crazy, A violent A$$ yes, but not as CRAZZZZZZZZZZZYYYYY as other incarnations

BillyJimBoBob
2009-03-16, 02:39 PM
Talic: The criminals of our world would just laugh at him, then kill him.
Almost everything he does is plot-powered. Remove plot and you'll find he can't sneak hundreds of gallons of gasoline into a boat.Don't be so sure about that. Boats require hundreds of gallons of gasoline to operate, and are frequently in areas where gasoline is readily available due to that need.

The rest of your objections are also debatable.

GoC
2009-03-16, 04:01 PM
Don't be so sure about that. Boats require hundreds of gallons of gasoline to operate, and are frequently in areas where gasoline is readily available due to that need.
It was commented somewhere in a similar discussion on these boards that it's very difficult to sneak things aboard a boat, they apparently have much greater security than you'de think they'd need. Sneaking in that much without someone noticing is impossible


The rest of your objections are also debatable.
Then by all means debate them, but keep in mind that anything is explainable with a sufficiently elaborate Epileptic Tree.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-03-16, 05:00 PM
It was commented somewhere in a similar discussion on these boards that it's very difficult to sneak things aboard a boat, they apparently have much greater security than you'de think they'd need. Sneaking in that much without someone noticing is impossibleBe careful with that word "impossible", it very often only means "difficult." I've been around boats/ships a lot. I've seen secure boats, and insecure boats. Most marinas have little to no security at all. Anyone can board any boat at the dock, and only an employee with a familiarity with the owner might even think to question someone who boarded a random boat. Once on the boat, you are quickly out of sight and free to do whatever you like. Which is why most people don't leave much in the way of valuables on their boats. State run ferries are usually rather secure, in fact they are probably the most secure boats/ships I've seen. But in the dystopian city of Gotham state run (or city run) ferries might not be as secure as they should be.

Then by all means debate them, but keep in mind that anything is explainable with a sufficiently elaborate Epileptic Tree.Um, I just did debate them. I see no need to do so individually, or with specific examples, just as you gave no specific reasons why you felt the items on your list to be impossible unless facilitated by plot.

Anything is explainable with an epileptic tree is the inverse of anything is deniable by simply saying you don't think that it is possible.

But think about this: If the Joker's schemes were so impossible, and spoiled your suspension of disbelief so completely, I'd think that you'd find more than a few reviewers who would come to the same conclusion and would point this out in their reviews. Did you, or is it just you?

Kris Strife
2009-04-09, 05:24 AM
Ankh Morpok...

Hoo boy. Ankh Morpok would be... interesting.

I see a few possibilities

Joker runs into the Luggage, decides to play with it or threaten Rincewind, Joker is eaten

Vetrinari's Xanatos roulette gets Joker and Rors as civil employees (or dead)

Carrot makes them both turn themselves in.

Susan, Lob-Sang, Death and/or Lu-tze step in.

Detrius shoots. Nuff said.

Joker keeps Vimes from getting home on time and we all know what happens then.

Finn Solomon
2009-04-09, 05:36 AM
Rorschach the vice-commander of the Watch. The Joker in charge of the civil service. I smell fanfiction possibilities...

Sholos
2009-04-09, 06:25 AM
Rorschach the vice-commander of the Watch. The Joker in charge of the civil service. I smell fanfiction possibilities...

No, and no. Vetinari would have the Joker killed, and there's no way Vimes would let Rorshach come within twenty feet of his Watch.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-09, 11:56 PM
Rorschach wins. He's got the cunning and detective skills of Batman, but unlike the Dark Knight, Rorschach would just kill the Joker. Rorschach is definitely physically strong enough to do it.

Dervag
2009-04-10, 12:13 AM
Rorschach wins. He's got the cunning and detective skills of Batman, but unlike the Dark Knight, Rorschach would just kill the Joker. Rorschach is definitely physically strong enough to do it.Rorschach has a disadvantage compared to Batman- he's insane. Great at fighting, great at improvised weapons, competent as a detective (mostly because he's got a knack for finding the right people to cripple for information). But he's not in Batman's league as a detective and he's got nowhere near Batman's level of resources.

Batman is what you get when you combine the strengths of Nite Owl and Rorschach, with a few of the weaknesses mixed in for flavor.
_____

So I don't think it'll be easy for Rorschach. It's certainly possible, but the Joker is good enough not to make it easy for Rorschach to kill him, and to make a very credible effort at killing Rorschach in return.

chiasaur11
2009-04-10, 12:47 AM
No, and no. Vetinari would have the Joker killed, and there's no way Vimes would let Rorshach come within twenty feet of his Watch.

Rorschach would be in the clink by the end of day two.

Vimes has morality as Ironclad as he does, insane willpower, and more importantly, is much better in a fight.

The man kills Werewolves. Unarmed.

Kris Strife
2009-04-10, 01:13 AM
Not to mention that while possessed by an elder evil from another universe, survives a fall into an underground, white water river, kills a number of heavily armed and armored dwarves (including one with a flame thrower) using a short sword and an ancient, slightly rusty ax with only an old breastplate for armor. He then evicted the elder evil by uncouncious force of will, which was supposed to be impossible with out killing him. And why? Cause they made him late getting home.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-04-10, 01:32 AM
Hmm . . . people seem pretty strongly in favor of Rorschach. I'm not particularly and here's why:

Rorschach probably would kick Joker's ass in a straight-up brawl. But the Joker never really was about the hand-to-hand fighting. Batman could easily beat him a hand-to-hand fight. But the Joker is more of a mastermind who uses others to do his fighting for him.

The last fight toward the end of the Dark Knight had him sic attack dogs on Batman, attack dogs he got by feeding their previous owner to them. And yes, they do give Batman a spot of trouble. I do recall Bubastis stopping Rorschach from attempting to sneak attack Veidt.

Which alludes to a quality that Rorschach doesn't have. The Joker is very good at getting lots of disposable henchmen. We see him getting into the minds of vicious attack dogs, insane asylum patients, street thugs and more sophisticated mobsters and uses them to his advantage. Of the two asylum patients, he uses one as an on-hand walking bomb and the other he uses as an impromptu assassin. He organizes a bank-robbery that turns the greed of his "employers" on each other then walks away with the biggest share.

Chances are, the Joker would have heard of Rorschach by reputation and would be interested in screwing with his head at some point, but I don't see it being quite the same thing as with Batman. Probably more like the Joker trying to employ Rorschach to spread general anarchy.

If Rorschach does fight Joker, it's likely that the Joker will already have many in-field assets and advantages to protect himself. And Rorschach can be beaten if he's badly outnumbered and surrounded. That's how Rorschach gets sent to prison.

AmberVael
2009-04-10, 01:46 AM
Lots of people say that Rorschach would end up killing Joker off relatively easily (for a superhero vs. a supervillain, at least.) I was one of them.

But you know, Lurker made me think of something.
Another scenario, if you will.
(I'd make a new thread for this, but I think it is a smaller side tangent that wouldn't last long enough on its own, so... well, if it gets too much, I'll make a new thread. Otherwise, I'll have it stay here)

Anyways.
I think we can all agree that Rorschach and the Joker are both pretty messed up in the head. Rorschach has his whole creepy 'face' and black and white morality issues, while the Joker is a depraved anarchist clown of doom.

Now, the Joker's madness is pretty infectious, given a bit of tweaking and the right circumstances. Harvey Dent, for example, even if you're only going by the movie version. He can kind of manipulate and warp people.

On the other hand, Rorschach's mentality isn't exactly self contained either- he makes a psychologist basically have a horrible mental breakdown (his life seemed to drop down into shambles, too).

So my question is, if you dropped these two crazy guys into an asylum (say, Arkham, just for amusement), and let them interact socially but not physically... which one would crack first? Who would get into the other's head and mess them up? Essentially, which one's screwed up-ness would screw up the other guy?

LurkerInPlayground
2009-04-10, 02:12 AM
Lots of people say that Rorschach would end up killing Joker off relatively easily (for a superhero vs. a supervillain, at least.) I was one of them.

But you know, Lurker made me think of something.
Another scenario, if you will.
(I'd make a new thread for this, but I think it is a smaller side tangent that wouldn't last long enough on its own, so... well, if it gets too much, I'll make a new thread. Otherwise, I'll have it stay here)

Anyways.
I think we can all agree that Rorschach and the Joker are both pretty messed up in the head. Rorschach has his whole creepy 'face' and black and white morality issues, while the Joker is a depraved anarchist clown of doom.

Now, the Joker's madness is pretty infectious, given a bit of tweaking and the right circumstances. Harvey Dent, for example, even if you're only going by the movie version. He can kind of manipulate and warp people.

On the other hand, Rorschach's mentality isn't exactly self contained either- he makes a psychologist basically have a horrible mental breakdown (his life seemed to drop down into shambles, too).

So my question is, if you dropped these two crazy guys into an asylum (say, Arkham, just for amusement), and let them interact socially but not physically... which one would crack first? Who would get into the other's head and mess them up? Essentially, which one's screwed up-ness would screw up the other guy?
Rorschach has rules. The Joker doesn't.

Rorschach has a deathwish, he just wants to die with according to some personal standard of honor. The Joker doesn't particularly care, but would like to sow a lot of anarchy before dying.

Both are heavily perception-oriented. The world is essentially blank and mutable and nothing is so stable that you cannot upset it from a shift in perspective. The Joker delights in tearing down those things that people depend upon for stability, revealing it for a sham or an illusion masking their savage nature. Rorschach agrees and despises humanity for its nature, although sometimes for the wrong reasons.

Of the two, I'd actually say that the Joker probably has a clearer grasp on reality, since he has specific knowledge for when and how people behave like rabid animals. Rorschach often just assumes that innocent people are already corrupt where the Joker assumes that they can be potentially corrupt.

Mostly, it would probably boil down to Rorschach trying to kill the Joker while the Joker tries to use Rorschach as an agent propagating an idea or cause, a meme (i.e. such as he tries to do with Harvey Dent and Batman). Ideally, he'd employ Rorschach, either by deception or persuasion, to act as his agent.

The Joker only cares about death in that it's a potential hindrance to his cause. Rorschach refuses to die, in spite of wanting to, since he refuses to make any compromise in his crusade.

Put simply, the Joker is more likely to screw up Rorschach. Rorschach is just more likely to make the Joker dead. It's simply a matter of having different objectives.

Nevrmore
2009-04-10, 03:29 AM
Rorschach only shows any type of negative emotion when it seems that a crime is committed, but not any crime against himself personally. While in prison, he was completely stoic and wooden-faced, even as every inmate yelled death threats at him, even as one tried to shank him with a shiv, even as they tried to break into his cell and burn him alive with an acetylene torch. If it's happening to him, he is completely blank about it, and only reacts in a way as to remove the immediate danger.

One on one, in a "Who would break whom" situation, I don't think The Joker could do it, because Rorschach doesn't care about what happens to him, and he certainly doesn't care about any of the other inmates.

Hectonkhyres
2009-04-10, 11:05 AM
No, and no. Vetinari would have the Joker killed, and there's no way Vimes would let Rorshach come within twenty feet of his Watch.
Wrong. Vetinari would have both put in separate iron boxes with airholes too small to put a pencil through and have them shipped to two nations a long way from each other which he does not like.... with gusto. Cities would burn. The Patrician is fun like that.

Anyway, with their sheer madness do you have any idea how much belief (the source of magical power in that universe) either of those two bastards would be channeling? And it would only grow with each atrocity either performs. Rorshach would have those inkblots of his forming ever-shifting arcane runes on his face by the end of the day.

The Lady (who shall not be named but who is responsible for what would normally be considered random or semi-random phenomena) would probably make the Joker her chosen pawn just like she did with Rincewind and Rorschach might be similarly chosen by the deity named Fate.

BRC
2009-04-10, 11:31 AM
Rorschach would be in the clink by the end of day two.

Vimes has morality as Ironclad as he does, insane willpower, and more importantly, is much better in a fight.

The man kills Werewolves. Unarmed.
Rorschach is what happens when you give Carcer Vimes's sense of justice. All three of them (Four, if you include the Joker), realize how fragile the system is. Vimes, however, does believe strongly in justice, and believes that the system itself IS important, even if it's all a sham. Vimes points out in one book that less than a hundred well-armed people who knew what they were doing could wipe out the watch. Both Rorschach and the Joker would realize this rather quickly, the difference is that while Vimes thinks "I need to strengthen the watch and make people think it's alot stronger than it is", Rorschach thinks "The police force can't handle the crime in this city. I'll ignore them" and the Joker thinks "Ooh, Fun!"

Really, Vetinari would probably get his hands on Rorschach (Who, while is specific actions are unpredictable, his general behavior and motivations are VERY predictable), and would make good use of him. The Joker would probably just end up pissing off Crysophrase, and would die (as his knives wouldn't work on Trolls)

Or the Fools Guild would recruit him.

chiasaur11
2009-04-10, 12:22 PM
Rorschach is what happens when you give Carcer Vimes's sense of justice. All three of them (Four, if you include the Joker), realize how fragile the system is. Vimes, however, does believe strongly in justice, and believes that the system itself IS important, even if it's all a sham. Vimes points out in one book that less than a hundred well-armed people who knew what they were doing could wipe out the watch. Both Rorschach and the Joker would realize this rather quickly, the difference is that while Vimes thinks "I need to strengthen the watch and make people think it's alot stronger than it is", Rorschach thinks "The police force can't handle the crime in this city. I'll ignore them" and the Joker thinks "Ooh, Fun!"

Really, Vetinari would probably get his hands on Rorschach (Who, while is specific actions are unpredictable, his general behavior and motivations are VERY predictable), and would make good use of him. The Joker would probably just end up pissing off Crysophrase, and would die (as his knives wouldn't work on Trolls)

Or the Fools Guild would recruit him.

Too funny.

Too brutal for the assassins guild, too. Frankly, everyone in the city would want him dead within the week.

Rorschach probably would be used. Vetinari is good with people, and he could probably find something that particular psycho would do on his own if sufficiently prompted. Probably far away from Vimes, though. No way any plan using a murderous vigilante would meet with the Blackboard monitor's approval.

BRC
2009-04-10, 12:41 PM
Too funny.

Too brutal for the assassins guild, too. Frankly, everyone in the city would want him dead within the week.

Rorschach probably would be used. Vetinari is good with people, and he could probably find something that particular psycho would do on his own if sufficiently prompted. Probably far away from Vimes, though. No way any plan using a murderous vigilante would meet with the Blackboard monitor's approval.Yeah. Rorschach would probably respect, and maybe even admire, old Suffer Not Injustice Vimes. He probably thinks Sam Vimes has gone soft by arresting criminals. He'd go Beserk if he heard about the thieves, assasins, or seamstresses guilds.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-04-10, 12:47 PM
Rorschach only shows any type of negative emotion when it seems that a crime is committed, but not any crime against himself personally. While in prison, he was completely stoic and wooden-faced, even as every inmate yelled death threats at him, even as one tried to shank him with a shiv, even as they tried to break into his cell and burn him alive with an acetylene torch. If it's happening to him, he is completely blank about it, and only reacts in a way as to remove the immediate danger.

One on one, in a "Who would break whom" situation, I don't think The Joker could do it, because Rorschach doesn't care about what happens to him, and he certainly doesn't care about any of the other inmates.
What gets Rorschach emotion isn't death threats or physical danger. His problems are more existential than that, I think.

The Joker would "learn" about Rorschach with his usual knife-and-story act and probably come away with the same conclusion.

Sholos
2009-04-10, 07:35 PM
What gets Rorschach emotion isn't death threats or physical danger. His problems are more existential than that, I think.

The Joker would "learn" about Rorschach with his usual knife-and-story act and probably come away with the same conclusion.

Joker wouldn't "come away" from that act at all.

GoC
2009-04-10, 09:13 PM
Um, I just did debate them. I see no need to do so individually, or with specific examples, just as you gave no specific reasons why you felt the items on your list to be impossible unless facilitated by plot.
Let's list the objections:
Can't recruit people. Why would anyone want to work for him? He's completely insane.
He can't even get around town without being recognized and having police surrounding him. Everyone in Gotham recognizes him. Someone's going to call the police.
That scene where you find out he has disabled a group of armed and alert SWAT dudes without alerting anyone becomes completely and utterly impossible. Can you even think of a way this would be possible without massive amount of plot-induced stupidity?
He can't even get that much explosive without alerting the police. Getting explosives in those quantities? That's probably several times the entire black market amount! The police almost certainly have a few infiltrators in there.
Infiltrating it all into a hostipital? Tell me how he would do that.


But think about this: If the Joker's schemes were so impossible, and spoiled your suspension of disbelief so completely, I'd think that you'd find more than a few reviewers who would come to the same conclusion and would point this out in their reviews. Did you, or is it just you?
Haven't checked any reviews. Most people wouldn't even notice as it doesn't harm their suspension of disbelief. I'm pretty sensitive to these things.

Finn Solomon
2009-04-10, 11:55 PM
The Joker would assasinate the incumbent Dr. Whiteface easily and turn the Fool's Guild into his own gang. Finally the Fools will be feared! Well, at least more than they are already.

chiasaur11
2009-04-11, 12:23 AM
The Joker would assasinate the incumbent Dr. Whiteface easily and turn the Fool's Guild into his own gang. Finally the Fools will be feared! Well, at least more than they are already.

Vetinari is one false move away from killing the entire fool's guild with scorpions already. The Joker couldn't pick a quicker ticket to the hangman's noose if he tried.

Trizap
2009-04-11, 12:48 AM
There is an issue during the build up to Infinite Crisis (I'll have to dig it out if people want numbers on this) that has the Joker strolling around a hideout of the Royal Flush Gang. Many of them are dead and their leader is about to be killed by the Joker. There is no sign of any henchmen. I would rate the Royal Flush Gang above your average SWAT team. As for weapons, the Joker brings his own and they are usually quite lethal when he is planning to kill people.

The end makes people think that maybe his plot falls apart (which is kind of a downer because that means nuclear holocaust all to prove that some crackpot in a mask doesn't know when to quit), but really what could have come of them running that? Some guy that the city fears claims the wealthiest man in the world killed the Comedian. Woo hoo. Stop the presses. If any reporter snoops around too much, Ozymandias will kill them. He'll run a PR campaign that clears his name to anyone that matters. He wins.

Having fun with Batman. He knows Batman won't kill him. He shot Batgirl. I already mentioned the bit with the Royal Flush Gang all because Lex didn't recruit him into the society. He killed Alexander Luthor in a back alley. He sprayed him in the face with acid then shot him. He laughed while he did it. He will do the same to Rorshach, kill him without a second thought. Or at least try to anyway. He doesn't screw around when he knows his own life may be on the line.

No, the problem is that people are assuming that the Joker will assume they are the same. If he hears about Rorshach seriously injuring and killing underworld types, he won't use the same approach as he does with Batman. He is toying with Batman because it's fun. Rorshach clearly doesn't work the same way and would be no fun to the Joker. He would just kill him. Nothing elaborate. He is single minded, so luring him somewhere wouldn't be hard. Then just bring the building down around him.

But Rorshach doesn't deal with guys who have an acid sprayer disguised as a flower on their jacket. Or that walk around with high explosives on them. Or that are crazy enough to lure him into a deathtrap that they themselves could easily get caught in. Rorshach is mostly seen beating up the kinds of guys the Joker and Batman's other rogues took out a long time ago in Gotham. If it somehow comes down to hand to hand combat, the Joker has lost. Before it ever comes to that, there is acid, a deadly joy buzzer, possibly poison gas, realistically anything in the room could be poisoned, explosives, and possibly henchmen (who presumably use guns). And of course the Joker isn't against using guns either. Someone like the Joker who seemingly sits around thinking up new ways to kill people for laughs is on an entirely different level from a child rapist and random underworld goons.

He can kill him, that's what he can do. Maybe he'll go for the low blow and try to kill Dan first, just to hit one of the handful of people Rorshach might care about. For the Joker, him possibly caring is enough.

I believe Dr. Manhatten "changed" Rorshach quite a bit because of that view. It just shows how absolutely single minded he is. The Joker has more or less figured out Batman, someone of considerably greater mental complexity. He killed Alexander Luthor simply because he didn't ask him to join the society. That was after killing several members of the Royal Flush Gang to find out what was going on. He will quite easily peg Rorshach for exactly what he is and act accordingly.

Quite simply because he is not like the regular criminals Rorshach deals with and Rorshach is very predictable in his approach to things. Against someone with real planning ability like the Joker (or like Ozymandias in Watchmen) Rorshach makes himself an easily manipulated variable.

nah, your wrong Rorshach would win.

now here is the problem: this entire discussion is based on your opinion, your opinion is that the Joker is better, my opinion is that Rorshach is better, we can't really prove whether they really are better since its our opinions, you cannot really win since it is your opinion, I can't win either, feel very foolish do you?

in fact, none of of you can prove whether the Joker is better, neither can I prove that Rorshach is better its just my opinion. my opinion is that rorshach would win, if you continue to think what you are spouting are facts and not opinions, I win the argument since I wisely recognize that these are all opinions, not facts.

again, Rorshach would win.

Ganurath
2009-04-11, 01:24 AM
nah, your wrong Rorshach would win.

now here is the problem: this entire discussion is based on your opinion, your opinion is that the Joker is better, my opinion is that Rorshach is better, we can't really prove whether they really are better since its our opinions, you cannot really win since it is your opinion, I can't win either, feel very foolish do you?

in fact, none of of you can prove whether the Joker is better, neither can I prove that Rorshach is better its just my opinion. my opinion is that rorshach would win, if you continue to think what you are spouting are facts and not opinions, I win the argument since I wisely recognize that these are all opinions, not facts.

again, Rorshach would win.Generally, one does not cite sources for opinions. Tyrants argument is this:

1. It is common knowledge that one does not toy with Rorsarch, as indicated by his encounter with Captain Carnage.

2. Joker has basic planning and information gathering ability. How else would he know which hospital Harvey Dent was in?

3. Joker does not toy around with people that one does not toy around with, as indicated by the references Tyrant made.

4. Rorsarch does not consider people planning for him. This is shown in the manner in which Ozymandias removes him from the picture temporarily.

BlueWizard
2009-04-11, 02:20 PM
Straight fight, I'd say Rorschach easily.

Joker if he had special gadgets and tricks all planned.

Tyrant
2009-04-11, 10:10 PM
now here is the problem: this entire discussion is based on your opinion, your opinion is that the Joker is better, my opinion is that Rorshach is better, we can't really prove whether they really are better since its our opinions,
While some of this is opinion (like what their past events mean when compared to each other i.e. which is better) some of it is what for this discussion could be labeled fact. Clearly we are talking about fact when refrring to fictional characters, but I have to state that since someone wants to play captain obvious.

you cannot really win since it is your opinion, I can't win either,
I was unaware there was anything to win. Is there some prize I don't know about? Voting? What are the rules?

feel very foolish do you?
Why would I? I am engaged in a discussion about characters that interest me.

my opinion is that rorshach would win, if you continue to think what you are spouting are facts and not opinions, I win the argument since I wisely recognize that these are all opinions, not facts.
Is this some variation of the "I posted last so I win" line of thinking only your idea is that you had the last (in your opinion) rational post so you win? Really, what is your point? I don't walk around telling people what they are doing is pointless (when I think it is) in real life and I will never understand what drives people to do it online.

Dervag
2009-04-11, 10:19 PM
nah, your wrong Rorshach would win.

now here is the problem: this entire discussion is based on your opinion, your opinion is that the Joker is better, my opinion is that Rorshach is better, we can't really prove whether they really are better since its our opinions, you cannot really win since it is your opinion, I can't win either, feel very foolish do you?Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who tells the fool that he is being foolish while doing the same thing?

chiasaur11
2009-04-12, 12:28 AM
Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who tells the fool that he is being foolish while doing the same thing?

I know this one!

The answer is Obi Wan Kenobi, right?

Hectonkhyres
2009-04-12, 01:20 AM
It is common knowledge that one does not toy with Rorsarch, as indicated by his encounter with Captain Carnage.
Well, in a great number of these something-vs-something threads, we make no such assumption: its as if a big portal opens in the sky and one (or both) participants are dropped into play. But I am willing to go with the assumption that the Joker has some vague secondhand knowledge of Rorschach via newspaper, television, and the internet. The knowledge may be rather distorted in the way only media can accomplish, but he would know enough not to throw himself on Rorschach's nonexistant sense of mercy and fair play.

I do ask, however, that Rorschach have similar knowledge of the Clown Prince of Crime. The comedy shtick weaponry if we happen to allow things from the comic/animated series into the fray, pencils, the love of a good mindscrew, etc. Rorschach might make an attempt to be better prepared than just carrying a damn grappling gun.

BlueWizard
2009-04-12, 04:54 AM
:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

darkblade
2009-04-12, 08:58 AM
Rorschach might make an attempt to be better prepared than just carrying a damn grappling gun.

While it wasn't outright stated I'm pretty sure Rorschach has the standard superhero aversion to guns, even if he doesn't have the aversion to killing. The cops all seemed pretty sure he'd be unarmed when they went to arrest him and Dan was pretty certain Rorschach didn't kill Moloch because just shooting people isn't his style.

Tyrant
2009-04-12, 04:44 PM
I do ask, however, that Rorschach have similar knowledge of the Clown Prince of Crime. The comedy shtick weaponry if we happen to allow things from the comic/animated series into the fray, pencils, the love of a good mindscrew, etc. Rorschach might make an attempt to be better prepared than just carrying a damn grappling gun.
I know that time was probably something of an issue, but how did he prepare to fight Ozymandias? A guy they seemed to both regard as a legitamate threat. He didn't even bring a heavier coat for the antarctic climate.

Hectonkhyres
2009-04-12, 07:55 PM
I blame his walking into Ozymandias's lair so ill-prepares squarely on the power of plot: The story wouldn't have been quite the slap in the face we have come to know and love if it went a different direction. Otherwise this stops being Watchmen and starts being Adam West.

But in this case both characters are freed from the dictates of plot. Rorschach is only bound to the stupidity his multitude of magnificent mental illnesses provide... not what a writer chooses to inflict on him to achieve a certain result.

I figure Rorschach generally sticks with the grappling gun for three big reasons: First of all, its quieter that your typical gun... even ones bearing silencers. The guy realizes stealth comes in handy when you are the most hunted man in the city. The second is that he is basically a hobo and, as such, its difficult to keep yourself in a constant supply of the right kind of ammunition. And the third is, with the kind of scum he normally goes up against, he usually doesn't need anything more than bare hands anyway.

He thought Ozymandias was relatively badass... but he had no reason to think the guy could beat two of his supposed equals simultaneously. That isn't saying anything about how weak or stupid Rorschach was: its a testament to how scary Ozymandias was. The guy was like the bastard manbaby of The Doctor and Captain America with a side order of Qui Chang Cain.

BlueWizard
2009-04-12, 08:00 PM
Rorschach got screwed... :smallfrown:

Nevrmore
2009-04-12, 10:20 PM
You all seem to have some erroneous belief that Rorschach has anything to prepare with. The guy didn't bring a heavier coat to Antarctica because he didn't have one. He had two trenchcoats, and one got confiscated in prison. He had one gun - a grappling gun - and that, too got confiscated. His place of residence is listed as "Transient." He doesn't have anything but the clothes on his back, whatever little things he had stolen from one of his many break-ins, and a sign that says "The End is Nigh." That's it, there's nothing for him to prepare with that he doesn't have to steal first.

Hectonkhyres
2009-04-12, 11:44 PM
You all seem to have some erroneous belief that Rorschach has anything to prepare with. The guy didn't bring a heavier coat to Antarctica because he didn't have one. He had two trenchcoats, and one got confiscated in prison. He had one gun - a grappling gun - and that, too got confiscated. His place of residence is listed as "Transient." He doesn't have anything but the clothes on his back, whatever little things he had stolen from one of his many break-ins, and a sign that says "The End is Nigh." That's it, there's nothing for him to prepare with that he doesn't have to steal first.
Actually, he was offered a coat but turned it down. This is probably just one more self destructive side effect of having five million bats loose in his belfry. I would guess that altering his costume is unthinkable to Rorschach because he thinks of it as the real him. You all saw how he thinks of his mask as his real face.

In any case, Rorschach can get ahold of anything he needs in short order. He just has to break into a pawn or gun shop (or wherever else has something he needs) in the middle of the night. Its just a pain in the ass and every time he does so he lets the authorities have another clue to where he is and another reason to drag him into prison/put a bullet in the back of his head. Being dead or incarcerated gets in the way of killing criminals.

hanzo66
2009-04-13, 02:10 AM
While it wasn't outright stated I'm pretty sure Rorschach has the standard superhero aversion to guns, even if he doesn't have the aversion to killing. The cops all seemed pretty sure he'd be unarmed when they went to arrest him and Dan was pretty certain Rorschach didn't kill Moloch because just shooting people isn't his style.


I've assumed that guns aren't his style due to it being too simple and clean. Walter's style seems to be brutal and painful. He'd rather make the enemy suffer than just end it right there.

BlueWizard
2009-04-13, 03:43 AM
Joker if he gets the drop.