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View Full Version : Pay-to-play D&D is evil! *RAGE*



Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-08, 09:02 AM
Didn't want to derail this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106405) more.


Sell it, but don't call it a campaign. It isn't real DnD. The spirit has been lost.

"The spirit" ? What are you, a D&D metaphysicist? Can you show me D&D with spirit, and D&D without? That's ridiculous.

"Open it up to the public" ? You're right, RPGs should only be played by secretive cabals in dank basement dungeons. Certainly they should never openly recruit or inform others of this hobby!

Somethind died inside you? What? That's the dumbest thing I've read all week, and I've read some pretty dumb things. Do you think this is a new idea?

No, wait, you're right. I should never write a book and sell it, because the spirit will have been lost once I get paid! I also should stop trying to get into programming work, because the spirit of my programming will be lost if I get paid!


Seriously, what can possibly be wrong with charging admission to a D&D game? Nobody who doesn't want to pay will pay. Nobody is being forced to pay. Nobody is being blackmailed. A person is charging money for his time spent providing entertainment to anyone who wants it. If he or she can get people to participate and pay, over the free alternatives, then certainly he or she is providing what these people perceive as quality.

Is this some sort of rabid anti-capitalism? Jealousy? Are RPGs your religion? Someone give me a comprehensible explanation.

Onmi
2009-03-08, 09:10 AM
I had to GM once for our group, I'm telling you even as a good writer with a unique imagination, it was hard as hell, I mean the group didn't do anything to drastic and I didn't try to road them into anything, but coming up with EVERYTHING for the world (I try to keep every option open just in case) remembering the rules, trying not to make the game to easy or to difficult...

I mean I wouldn't SELL my services, but I wouldn't say you lose the soul of DnD by charging, I mean he obviously has a large campaign world set up, with lots of maps, plots, and everything else, if you play, you get guaranteed a hard worked on campaign.

Though I think there should be some clauses, but honestly, not seeing a problem, there are enough GM's who would do it for free to.

RebelRogue
2009-03-08, 09:16 AM
I get paid for DMing and I'm hella less prepared than the other thread implies...

Satyr
2009-03-08, 09:22 AM
I was invited and paid for my services as a DM by groups I only barely knew; they covered the travel costs, offered me a place to sleep and I run a short campaign for the weekend I spent with them. I don't see anything wrong with it - I am pretty good in a game a thoroughly enjoy, and the whole thing included a workshop for gamemastering and creating narratives. It is a service and if people are willing to pay for it, it is up to them. If the service is satisfying them, well done. If not, they will not come again, or pay again. Since I run two of these small campaign and workshop weekends per year, I think they like it. And I belong to those people who go to Cons to participate in the workshops with authors and good gamemasters, which is only different on the surface.

I could also probably charge a covering fee for one of my more regular groups, but since I always get cake there, this already happens in a way. In my book, cake > money, at least for spending a nice afternoon/evening with a group of gamers.


"Open it up to the public" ? You're right, RPGs should only be played by secretive cabals in dank basement dungeons. Certainly they should never openly recruit or inform others of this hobby!

While I enjoy a bit of exclusivity as much as the next elitist,
charging money for gaming groups is probably a better way to exclude casual gamers instead of inviting them. Which is not necessarily bad, either.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-08, 09:26 AM
In my book, cake > money, at least for spending a nice afternoon/evening with a group of gamers.

What if instead you got enough money to buy more cake? :smallbiggrin:

I'm with most folks who've posted thus far on this matter; there's nothing inherently wrong with selling one's services as a DM. Perhaps a poor way to make money? Yes. Perhaps hard to find people willing to play? Yes. Somehow not D&D? No...

Satyr
2009-03-08, 09:34 AM
What if instead you got enough money to buy more cake?

My girlfriend would say, that I already have enough - or even too much -cake. :smallfrown: :Besides, cake as a matter of payment is a friendlier way of gratification than cold currency.

And certainly, I don't see this as a way to earn much money or to become rich; the potential target group is probably not the wealthiest around, so they don't have too much money to spend, and as the number of participants is quite limited from the get-go (I mean, if I am paid to run a game, I want to make sure that players enjoy the game more than a usual one, so that they will pay me again. This means automatically that a fixed limit of participants is needed for the game, because the smaller the group, the more focused the game is on every single player, which means the overall quality is probably better).

Keld Denar
2009-03-08, 09:36 AM
Many Living Greyhawk adventures, and Living Forgotten Realms adventures are run this way. I have a friend back in Boston who charges a slight fee when he runs games. Granted, his is only like, $2 a person and is primarily there to cover his printing fees (printing a 60+ page module each time adds up). Also, many conventions where LG and LFR were and are played either have entry or table fees, or both. They typically end up costing the same though, about $20 a day or 60$ a weekend.

I had absolutely no problem paying any of these fees to play LG back when I did.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-08, 09:57 AM
For me, coming from a hobby game perspective where pay-for-play is banned in tournament settings in order for the host to receive sanction by the company that puts it on, I can understand why there might be opposition to this.

On the other hand, GMing is a different thing than playing, it's more like a facilitator role so it's more demanding and essential for the game to take place. You don't have that same sense of equality between GM and players as you do if you're all competing against each other around a board game or card game, so it's not as objectionable I don't think to have the players owe something to the GM as it would be if one player was collecting from all the others. (Gambling, on the other other hand, is a different thing entirely.)

Besides there seems to be a long tradition of "DM eats/drinks for free during game sessions" that I've seen, though that's on a group by group basis of course. They used to give me free pizza in college for DMing and who's gonna turn that down? :smallsmile:

KeresM
2009-03-08, 10:15 AM
Being that other work is difficult to find around here, I'm considering running a pay-for-play in addition to my other games. I'd run online pay-for-plays nightly and start loving my job again ;)

Connor Darkdart
2009-03-08, 10:59 AM
I have two fold feelings about this.


For: On the one hand, DMing is a service just like writing a book is a service, you might have a large competition that does it for free, but its still a service. To say it in anyway reduces the fun or originality of a game is rubbish. Its a service, and as such has as much right to be sold or bought as that orange you picked from your garden.

Against: The cost of books in D & D alone is becoming hefty, but then to also have to pay for someone to run a game takes it a bit far. D & D at its heart is a hobby, not a business (No matter what WoTC does, although 4e was a tad silly :smallannoyed:). If you start treating it like business or a source of income, you are removing a lot of the fun. Its not unheard of for hobbies to become businesses, but as far as I see they all end up losing the fun.

Mobey_Wee
2009-03-08, 11:45 AM
Keep in mind how populous Manhattan is and how much of that population is college students, gamers with families, and businessmen in need of a gaming fix. Remember how many seats I actually need to fill, the fact that the high price is average price for the local area, and the fact that none of the players have to be committed/regular.

I would probably be inclined to pay for play, but I live in Louisiana, not exactly an abundance of gamers. New York, where I would really assume that it wouldn't be that hard to find a game, I can't say I would. It would have to be something really special, and even then, paying for each session, the first time there's a bad session (and it happens to everybody, no matter how prepared), seems you're going to have some very unhappy players. Do they pay $12 every time they want to play? Personally, I'm not big on 1-shots, unless I'm keeping the character and at least doing a series of 1-shots as to level the character and what not, but having to pay to each time you play? I just don't know.




a) You are using a system that has a reputation for being easy to DM

also there's that.




I could also probably charge a covering fee for one of my more regular groups, but since I always get cake there, this already happens in a way. In my book, cake > money, at least for spending a nice afternoon/evening with a group of gamers.


cake > money indeed! or beer > money! or pizza > money! or even good times > money.

If people don't mind paying for it, then great, all the way around, for those playing, and for the DM, I just couldn't see paying $12 a week, or 2x a week, just to have a semi-regular gaming group (which it really wouldn't be, as he'll be probably playing with new people everytime). Just my 2 cents


edit: Ok not sure when it happened but I just noticed... HALFLING IN THE PLAYGROUND!!! YATA!! Ok i'm done.

CaptainCommando
2009-03-08, 11:53 AM
Against: The cost of books in D & D alone is becoming hefty, but then to also have to pay for someone to run a game takes it a bit far. D & D at its heart is a hobby, not a business (No matter what WoTC does, although 4e was a tad silly :smallannoyed:). If you start treating it like business or a source of income, you are removing a lot of the fun. Its not unheard of for hobbies to become businesses, but as far as I see they all end up losing the fun.

But, if the DM makes it so that you don't have to buy books to play and enjoy the campaign, then that should be a big plus towards paying to play, right?

In a table top role-playing game, the players' fun is largely dependent on the GM's ability to tell stories well and coordinate the players so that they remain comfortable and interested. Do the players enjoy the story being told by the GM and do they feel like their decisions have any impact on the story?
The GM's fun may be withered by how much stress the workload gives him/her. Does the GM enjoy the paperwork and performance necessary to keep the game going?

ericgrau
2009-03-08, 12:05 PM
I just see it as people being cheap and not willing to pay even a small amount for anything... even after they give up an evening of their (apparently worthless) time to play. I'd pay, especially if it meant the DM would be professional. But even the amateur has a lot of work to do and a lot to put up with, and I'd understand covering his expenses, etc. as well. It should be no wonder then that people have trouble finding good DM's willing to DM when the assumption is that all games must be non-pay. Not that most games couldn't continue to be non-pay, but pay games seems like a perfectly fine option to me.

Gamgee
2009-03-08, 12:16 PM
All I said is it didn't feel right. I never said there was actually anything wrong with doing it. Also obviously it will be DnD, but it won't be at the same time. A lot of the feelings of the game is lost once it is opened to the public. It's just sort of... a service now. It becomes something you pay for and it does lose some of it's feeling. I can't explain it, but you can't be foolish enough to say they are the same.

How to put this... I enjoy the close group with friends I know rather than just customers. I also don't care how long you have played with people, but if at the end of the day you only know them through the service it is just a business. I mean with friends you play with in real life you can talk or joke about it and no one gets what you mean. Or you can recall previous adventures with awe, joy, hate, or sorrow depending on the tone and mood. I mean there is just so much... more to it when it isn't "just a service".

You can provide that for them at the end of the day no doubt, but it loses some of the connection. It becomes something they begin to expect you to do more and more. It just raises a wall between player and DM a little. Maybe even two depending on players.

Even if you do enjoy some of the players in the group and you become friends you still expect them to pay. It just seems... like something is lost. I can't explain it really good, it is something you just have to understand.

Sort of like "Ill be your best friend for the weekend, but only if you pay me". In this case it isn't quite the same... but anyway I shall go. Once again I am sure you will make a lot of money and probably do some good DM work.

P.S
Hah... "DM work' takes on whole new meaning now. :P

Edit
"Worthless time" I laugh and say why must all time be worth something?

Myatar_Panwar
2009-03-08, 12:51 PM
If the DM was great, then I would totally pay for his services. For example, for those opposing the issue, would you not pay Monte Cook to DM for you if he asked for like 10 dollars a session or whatever?




Against: The cost of books in D & D alone is becoming hefty, but then to also have to pay for someone to run a game takes it a bit far. D & D at its heart is a hobby, not a business (No matter what WoTC does, although 4e was a tad silly :smallannoyed:).

I'm not sure what you mean here. You are saying that fourth edition feels like a buisness more than the other editions? I don't even know what to think about that. You are comparing it to 3.5, which had numerous and basically useless splat books released near constantly. You are comparing it to an edition which had books they were selling like Savage Species. Come on.

FoE
2009-03-08, 12:58 PM
Is a DM not entitled to the sweat of his brow? :smalltongue:

Artanis
2009-03-08, 01:31 PM
The way I see it is this:

From the players' perspective, there's nothing wrong with paying for a DM if the alternative is not having a game.

From the DM's perspective, there's nothing wrong with being paid for being a DM if the players want to pay you for it.

That's capitalism for ya.

Yahzi
2009-03-08, 01:42 PM
I must be doing something wrong.

I have to pay my players so they'll let me DM!

:smallbiggrin:

levi
2009-03-08, 02:23 PM
In principle, I seen nothing wrong with paying the DM. In general, there seems to be a long tradition of compensating the DM for all his hard work and expense. True, it's not usually cash, but it's not uncommon for the DM to get "paid" in food, gas, lodging, DnD books, etc. Just paying cash is really no different.

I've never paid cash to play DnD, but I have payed for other games. I play a bit of Magic and HordsMachine. It's generally expected that tournaments are for pay-to-play. Furthermore, at conventions, games are generally paid for as well, either by a table fee, a door fee, or both. I don't think anyone gets up in arms about that.

As mentioned above, if Monty Cook (or for that matter, Rich Berlew, or the late Gary Gygax, god rest his soul, or a few others) offered a game for a fee, if I had the spare cash, I'd be interested, no doubt.

If I was to pay to play though (and the DM wasn't at a con or someone famous), I'd expect a lot. A really nice play enviroment (comfortable chairs, solid tables, low noise, etc.), food and snacks, printed character sheets, nicely printed campaing guide, loaner equipment (books, dice, figs, pencils), etc, and a great game, of course. It could be worth it.

I have a friend who DMs and he has such a large collection of DnD books, he could probably charge simply based on providing his players access to nearly every 3.0 and 3.5 book ever printed. He also has enough dice that his players wouldn't even need any of thier own. I don't know how much he's spent, but I know it's got to be a lot and I wouldn't begrudge him trying to cover some of it with a small fee.

I could also see pay for play being justified in an online game. Provided the DM was hosting it on a server that he had to pay for himself. On a free server or over plain email, I think it would be lame, but I wouldn't hold it against the DM. I'd just think him (and, even more so, his players) to be a fool.

Finally, as a DM myself, I've had players I wouldn't run a game for even if I was paid. Some things just aren't worth it.

That's my two coppers.

Greengiant
2009-03-08, 02:30 PM
Right now I'm getting my players to not pay to play, but donate money when they come over to play, because, frankly, I'm freakin' tired of using PDF PHBs, MM's and DMGs. and I'm forced to use lame MSPaint character sheets on the computer, because I can't buy ink to print them out.

It's for their own benefit. I spend all of my free time jotting down notes, ideas. I keep a pen and paper on me at almost all times just in case I get an idea for D&D, and write out stories, plot lines, and character monologues, all for these guys, it's the least they can do.

Granted, they buy chips and pop, but I like neither, and end up feeding them all of my food in the morning when they stay the night. A maybe 5$ "suggested donation" each session from each player seems trivial. Maybe in 4 months I'll even have enough to get a real life copy of a PHB!

Connor Darkdart
2009-03-08, 02:39 PM
But, if the DM makes it so that you don't have to buy books to play and enjoy the campaign, then that should be a big plus towards paying to play, right?

Ah, so you mean a "Recruit anyone interested, they pay for usage of the DM and the DMs books"? That is interesting, certainly something I would consider with books that I havent tried before (like Forgotten Realms)


I'm not sure what you mean here. You are saying that fourth edition feels like a buisness more than the other editions? I don't even know what to think about that. You are comparing it to 3.5, which had numerous and basically useless splat books released near constantly. You are comparing it to an edition which had books they were selling like Savage Species. Come on.

Fourth edition, (for which I bought the DMG, MM and PHB) felt very much like they were trying to queeze every buck out of me. Half of the PHB concentrated on using their D & D Tiles(TM) and D & D Minituares(TM). I admit there are splatbooks which are utterly pointless for 3.5, and im not saying that 4e was without merit, just that it felt a bit more like "Important Stuff... TO IMPROVE EXPERIENCE WE RECCOMEND: EXPENSIVE STUFF... Important Stuff... FOR THE BEST ENJOYMENT GET: LOL MORE" and so on.

MartinHarper
2009-03-08, 02:40 PM
You're getting tax-free money and stealing from the government, which is illegal.

I would expect that, after accounting for expenses, Captain Commando will not be turning a profit, and therefore will not need to pay any tax.


You can't go around getting yourself paid for DMing a game which you didn't create.

Captain Commando is hardly the first person to sell DMing services. I would expect WotC to be pleased that he is spending money on their products and introducing new people to their game.

Alleine
2009-03-08, 02:55 PM
I also don't care how long you have played with people, but if at the end of the day you only know them through the service it is just a business.

Because obviously if money changed hands, then everyone has become soulless robots incapable of making a connection with another human being?
I honestly can't understand how you see it this way. That's almost like saying you can't be friends with co-workers because you met them at work. It doesn't make much sense.


I mean with friends you play with in real life you can talk or joke about it and no one gets what you mean. Or you can recall previous adventures with awe, joy, hate, or sorrow depending on the tone and mood. I mean there is just so much... more to it when it isn't "just a service".

:smallconfused:
You make it sound like people suddenly lose the ability to reflect on the past or have humor because of this. Take a different stance. It isn't 'just a service', it's 'just money'. Not THAT big of a deal.
You still have things in common, you can relate to each other past experiences that they would otherwise never have heard of. I completely fail to see how paying someone to DM sucks the life out of everyone and renders them incapable of socializing, forging a friendship. etc.

toddex
2009-03-08, 03:27 PM
From what ive read of that thread they're just stating their opinions on the matter, giving the man a "Good luck hope you do well!" and they're done. Then you come in and say LISTEN TO ME AND SEE THINGS MY WAY AND MY WAY ONLY!

Gamgee
2009-03-08, 03:49 PM
From what ive read of that thread they're just stating their opinions on the matter, giving the man a "Good luck hope you do well!" and they're done. Then you come in and say LISTEN TO ME AND SEE THINGS MY WAY AND MY WAY ONLY!
Pretty much. I never even said it was "evil". All I said was that for me the game would feel soulless. I might be more lax if you took on a dedicated group and had them sign up for a more traditional campaign where they can get to know each other and the story is more together and they are the only ones around. The way you have it as a sort of open ended thing is just not my taste. It's sort of like a MMO. I mean yea you can go far, but only as far as anyone else. It's about everyone paying and playing and not just your band of merry adventurers. Your just another mouth to DM for so to speak.

Also you have to have some understanding of people to really see why there could be problems. I mean it can get contested enough when it's for free with a small group of friends. I imagine things could be getting pretty nasty. Just brace yourself for it. Anyways have fun with the game and do be careful, human beings can be quite spiteful.

I hope this clarification makes a little more sense. Also I shall leave on a smile as it will brighten the mood. :)

P.S
Please people no more hostility, all we are doing is sharing opinions. :P

Starscream
2009-03-08, 04:19 PM
Only thing I've ever gotten for DMing is pizza. If you're not doing it for fun you shouldn't be doing it. If you are doing it for fun, you shouldn't need anything else.

magellan
2009-03-09, 03:26 AM
Ermmm....

None of my players ever bought a rulebook. Though i dont let you take them home anymore when its your first session, you had to be there for 2-3 at least (lesson learned)
No one ever had to buy dice (though they inevitably ever did, because they like to have their own)
And i always turned down the pizza since I always had a bite in my mouth when i *really* had to yell "STOP!"

That said:
Its nothing evil, i just dont see the market potential. Your competitors do it for free, and I really dont get this whole "I am not a player, i am an Artist" thing. Somebody said somewhere on this board that you will never get an oscar for your great character portrayal. Likewise you will never get one for excellent direction in a game.
DMing as a skill?: everybody can do mediocre, almost everybody can do it good, and very few people can't do it excellent.

Also: if you talk to every single player in private and tell them nothing at all, just to spread paranoia: Thats my idea! there is a license fee on that! ;)

P.S: Trying to find that beer and pizza legislation... i am almost certain it was there somewhere...

Edit to add: according to my players i am the best DM possible, better than anything else could ever be. I guess its 50/50 making you continue to do it (because they need you) and like that thing with your own kids who are always smarter and prettier than everybody elses. ;)

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-09, 03:43 AM
From what ive read of that thread they're just stating their opinions on the matter, giving the man a "Good luck hope you do well!" and they're done. Then you come in and say LISTEN TO ME AND SEE THINGS MY WAY AND MY WAY ONLY!

Yeah, that's about--


This seems... I don't know. Not right. I can't stop you of course, but I also can't agree with you. I just don't like the concept of selling ones services as a DM. It just feels... wrong. Anyways best of luck in your... performance.


Selling your services as a GM doesn't feel right.


The idea is rather interesting, even if I don't like it.

Oops.

Kris Strife
2009-03-09, 04:02 AM
I dont think its a case of it being wrong to collect money for costs (books, travel, dice and food) in exchange for DMing, but rather DMing just to make money that they have a problem with.

When you donate a few bucks to your regular DM, or buy pizza for them, thats a gift for a friend, possibly the one who got you started. If you dont have any cash to spare at the moment, theyll understand and let you play. But having to pay just to play, (and if cash is tight, being SOL) is something else.

Swordguy
2009-03-09, 04:18 AM
Well, very few people complain when stores charge gaming groups to use their space. So if the DM's providing a space to play, he's right in line with loads of other folks.

I don't charge to GM (thought about it though), but I'd look at it like this - you aren't paying for the "game", necessarily. You're paying for the several hours of prep time (hard work) that it takes to be able to RUN a game. Add to that overhead (props, paper, printer ink, battle mat, etc), and a GM can actually spend a fair amount of money to run a session - so getting a little of that back isn't necessarily unreasonable. "GM eats free" helps cover some of that, of course, but it'd be nice to be recompensed for the 6 hours of effort one puts into planning a session, only to have it go down the drain when the wizard Celerity/Time Stops/X/X/X your BBEG the first time he sees the guy. It'd take some of the frustration out of it - it means your time wasn't completely wasted. :smallwink:


The HUGE downside to "pay to play" is that players now have a much greater say in what happens to their characters - they're paying for a positive play experience, and some of them will hold that over you if you try to do ANYTHING bad to their PC.

Eeezee
2009-03-09, 04:23 AM
I can imagine this kind of thing ending horribly or just being generally awful. The only kind of people who would pay to play D&D are the kind who got kicked out of all of the free D&D groups. In other words, they're the kind who you don't want to play with. You may as well go do something that pays better and isn't as annoying.

bosssmiley
2009-03-09, 06:09 AM
Is a DM not entitled to the sweat of his brow? :smalltongue:

Thank you Ayn Gygax. :smallbiggrin:

*meh* If a guy can make money from DMing, then more power to him. Ain't that the quintessence of the American dream ("Do what you love and monetize it")?

Personally I won't 'hire a DM', but I'm happy to help one defray costs. How's that any different from paying subs to a gaming club? Just make sure to abide by the universal "Don't be an @sshole" rule and everything should be fine. YMMV of course.

Grey Paladin
2009-03-09, 06:39 AM
P2P D&D is quite common in Israel - its players are jokingly referred to as the Untouchable. As a rule of thumb the player pool for such games is horrible as it is full of they who can't get into any normal group. The DM (usually, union rules) can't kick out paying customers so almost every group has at least one unbearable jackass everyone (often not so) secretly want to kill.

On the other hand the same doesn't applies to out-of-union games and one-shots, many of which rock.

As long as the artist doesn't let greed overwhelm the art, profiting from one's skill isn't bad by any means.

weenie
2009-03-09, 07:48 AM
I must admit it would probably feel a bit weird in the beginning, since usually a big part of D&D is socializing, but if the first session would be good, I think I'd probably get used to it and paying the DM wouldn't be such a big deal. I must say though, that 12$ is a bit too much for my pocket, but CaptainCommando explained he would run the game in Manhattan, and I guess that changes things a bit.

kalt
2009-03-09, 07:53 AM
If it is really well run and has lots of flavor and the DM is actually good then I know I would personally be willing to pay a small entrance fee. Being a DM is hard work and I know I personally don't have the time anymore to do it without using a module.

FatR
2009-03-09, 08:07 AM
I can imagine this kind of thing ending horribly or just being generally awful. The only kind of people who would pay to play D&D are the kind who got kicked out of all of the free D&D groups. In other words, they're the kind who you don't want to play with. You may as well go do something that pays better and isn't as annoying.
QFT. Most players who actually are fun to play with also are smart enough to notice that their presence at the game table is a privilege, because they already are invited to more games than their work schedule allows.
Also, speaking as a DM, I don't want obligations, associated with being paid for DMing, period. All the trouble of a job (as opposed to a hobby)? No, thanks.

Dyllan
2009-03-09, 08:13 AM
If it is really well run and has lots of flavor and the DM is actually good then I know I would personally be willing to pay a small entrance fee. Being a DM is hard work and I know I personally don't have the time anymore to do it without using a module.

Really, Kalt? Cause I'm running a game in Cincinnati... I don't usually charge entrance fee, but how much money are we talking? *grin*

But seriously, I used to play in a Legend of the Five Rings game with a $2 / session fee. Of course, it was all friends and 100% of the fees went to buy new books as they came out, so it's not quite the same thing.

I see nothing wrong with charging for DM'ing services. I know I put a ton of prep work into my sessions. And sometimes that goes out the window when the party decides to blow up the volcano rather than going through the elaborate dungeon set up below it... (that was fun... but not for the friend who was DM'ing it). However, I don't think charging for profit is something I'd want to do (charging to cover costs, buy new books, etc... that I could see).

Once you start charging enough that you're making a profit, your players become your customers. As customers, you need to keep them happy. That erodes the power of Rule 0. And personally, I like DM'ing a group that always supports Rule 0. Sure, they may occasionally argue that rules don't work that way... but if I say "that's how they work in my game" the arguments stop. Of course, I make it a point not to abuse that, and to be as consistent in rulings as possible, so it's a little easier for them to accept when I do change something.

Telonius
2009-03-09, 09:23 AM
I don't think it's evil, just silly. Personally I wouldn't pay for somebody to put on a tabletop game. (I might swallow some small fee to defray printing costs, transportation if he's coming in from really far away, etc). I'll never charge for a game I'm running, though the players are certainly welcome to pay me in pizza if they want. I just don't see how any DM (me included) could be worth paying when you can get a pretty high quality experience for free.

LARP is a little different, since you actually have to get an outdoor playing area and all the rest of the stuff associated with it. I could see charging a fee for something like that.

fireinthedust
2009-03-09, 06:36 PM
I've done pay-to-play with my groups in different situations:

1) Donations: to cover costs of maps, figurines (as I'm the only one who collects), and massive prep times (including making characters). To date I've gotten 20 bucks and a donated pile of miniatures!
Bonus: I don't make good money, and I need to pay for rent, food, etc.; my group likes miniatures maps that have color.
Problems: the 20 bucks player was creepy, and I let him go after he "tickled" my sister (who also plays with us). Still, it would have been easier if I hadn't mixed money with D&D groups.

Still, I need the help to run the games. I am allergic to most foods (unfortunately including Cake :smallfrown: ) so this is pretty much the one way my current band of players can give.


2) D&D camp: when I was a teen. Technically I was a volunteer for the camp that made the money, but the idea of themed camps with supervision is a good one. Compared to Astronomy, Soccer, and Baseball camp, I can imagine this is a great idea the kids would love.
Bonus: kids 11-16 have somewhere to be, educational experiences with RPGs, and no crystal meth dealers.
Problems: kids can be annoying, and they sometimes hate each other. I was stuck with a kid who was weeeeeird (like, his parents must have abused him, mentally somehow, and fed him Ritalin because his emotional problems were "obviously" ADHD; and why treat kids like human beings...). For a week the other kids (who aren't as nice as me) were BRUTAL to him, until we found him another group.

Still, I want to try this on my own, as an adult. Afterschool programs for youths is a need, and I'm sure I can charge little enough to parents to take their kids after school. All I need is a place to prove their kids aren't being abused (visible, not a gym locker room, always a group of them, etc.), and a market. Maybe a community center? A library? A park table?

Skaven
2009-03-09, 06:46 PM
As long as the DM let me have my wants in regard to the game, I would not have a problem playing.

Those wants being:

I want to have the freedom to play what I want in regard to race/class. And as long as my feats / skills are legal and not broken, It should be no problem.

Riffington
2009-03-09, 08:16 PM
As long as the DM let me have my wants in regard to the game, I would not have a problem playing.

Those wants being:

I want to have the freedom to play what I want in regard to race/class. And as long as my feats / skills are legal and not broken, It should be no problem.

Well, the customer is always right...

fireinthedust
2009-03-09, 08:24 PM
At this point I'd add in that Pre-Gen characters can be great for paid games. I as GM could focus on cool adventures, knowing what the PCs can do.

ditto 4e: helps me predict what's possible in combat, and otherwise concentrate on the scenario outside of that.

granted, having my PCs adventure where I want them to go, in the style of campaign I want to do, is important to me.
But I understand better than some players what it takes to *make* a module or run a good session.
Also what I'm comfortable running (ie: for starters, there are some sick puppies out there, and I don't feel like running truly evil characters). RPGA has standards for PCs: no evil.


ALSO: you pay to play as it is: you pay the company to write adventures for you. You pay to buy a Campaign setting. You pay for DDI, you pay for Dice, you pay for board games.
If I as a GM am doing the same thing but specifically with YOU in mind? If you know you'll get quality, covering my costs for buying/making good maps, or miniatures, etc., is fair.

I wouldn't charge 200 bucks a pop, but I would ask for help merely covering costs for things I use: maps, minis, markers, and equipment like GM screens. I world-build as it is, but I don't make the hardware.

horseboy
2009-03-09, 09:24 PM
Meh, people have been doing this since 1st edition. You know, when the players might have a PHB and the DM comes in with his three milk crates of crap. (My back is so glad to be in the digital age:smallsmile:)
Even when we play I usually bring at least $15 worth of food, or 2 5# lasagnas. Heck, $12 would be cheaper.

BizzaroStormy
2009-03-09, 10:47 PM
I must be doing something wrong.

I have to pay my players so they'll let me DM!

:smallbiggrin:

You are. Aside from the actual game, our DM's parents provide a big dinner and A LOT of snacks. Our last session started with a plate of string cheese, 2 lbs of strawberries w. yogurt to dip them in, nachos, as well as acces to the garage full of various drinks and individual size snack bags which we've only had one problem with up until now.

On person in our group grabbed a bottle of strawberry milk, and took a big gulp. He then got a sour look on his face and when I asked him what was wrong, he said "I just drank strawberry cottage cheese!" Lo and behold, the milk was 3 months expired.