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Eldan
2009-03-09, 05:52 AM
Just a quick question:
The rules on the craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill say that you have to be a spellcaster to make any of the alchemical items (I houseruled that away, but that's not the question.)
It does not say that you actually have to be a spellcaster to learn craft: alchemy though, right?
I'm asking because I was quite certain that I heard people mention that by RAW, you had to be a spellcaster to take skill ranks in Craft: Alchemy, but now can't see it mentioned anywhere.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-09, 07:32 AM
I think that by RAW you are correct that you don't need to be a spellcaster to put ranks in Craft (Alchemy), just like you don't need to have an Intelligence of 10 or higher to take a level in Wizard. Of course, you're not going to get much for your investment in either case. :smallamused::smallwink:

Zherog
2009-03-09, 09:54 AM
You're correct -- anybody can put ranks in Craft (alchemy), but only somebody with spellcaster levels can make items with it. I thought I remembered Craft (alchemy) being able to identify potions, but that appears to be a DC 25 Spellcraft check. Maybe I'm remembering an old 3.0 rule...

I've also house ruled out the stupid "you must be a spellcaster" rule.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-09, 10:03 AM
You could probably make an Aid Another roll if you have ranks in Craft (Alchemy), even if you're not a spellcaster.

newbDM
2009-03-09, 10:42 AM
Yeah, requiring someone to be a spellcaster to make alchemical items is a stupid rule. I also houseruled that away.

As powergamers would say, alchemical items "sub-optimal". I get a kick out of them, just like I enjoy the other craft skills and feats (I am a small minority in this regard I believe), so I am happy when I get a DM who houserules that away.

But anyway, it is true that you do not need to be a spell caster to take ranks in said skill. My current KAMB style kobold character is aiming for the Field Chef prestige class (found HERE (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2544&it=1) for free!), and he needs eight ranks in craft alchemy as a prerequisite. He is a rogue, so I am essentially burning skill points on nothing. :smallfrown:

Neithan
2009-03-09, 11:11 AM
I've never heard about that before, and had to look it up to make sure there really is such a rule.
And I agree, that it's completely stupid! You don't need to be a spellcaster to take craft (baking) or craft (leatherworking), so why alchemy? I think it's the most stupid rule I've ever seen in D&D, and we all know that this game has a lot of really stupid rules. Also, it doesn't define what a spellcaster is.Wizard with Int 9? Bard1 without any bonus spells? First level ranger?
I'm pretty sure all alchemists I've ever seen where Experts.
I can't imagine why any gm would not houserule that away. IF they were even aware such a restriction exists.

But I have another problem:
Could it be, that making items with alchemy takes a damn long time?
The cheapest poison costs 90 gp. That's 900 sp and I'd say a DC of 20.
A 2nd level expert with Int 14, 5 Ranks in craft (alchemy), and Skill Focus (alchemy) gets a +10 to the craft check, so let's say he takes 10 and gets a 20.

Make an appropriate Craft check representing one weekís work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result ◊ the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result ◊ the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then youíve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result ◊ the DC doesnít equal the price, then it represents the progress youíve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
20 x 20 is 400. So you need a second week for 800. And one fourth of a third week to get to 900.

That is sixteen days of work for one single dose of an extremely weak poison. One does is for a single attack. And you can't do greater amounts of it at the same time. If you want to make two doses, it takes twice as long.

What character would ever create his own poisons?

A ranger with some bowmaking training would need 4 weeks to make a simple longbow.

I think the system is really flawed. Even when it's days intead of weeks, that's still rediculously long. Does anyone know about alternate systems to make the craft skill calculations?

Saintjebus
2009-03-09, 11:31 AM
I use the magic item creation rules: one day/ 1000 gp. if it costs less than 1000, it takes one day.

Emperor Tippy
2009-03-09, 11:37 AM
I've never heard about that before, and had to look it up to make sure there really is such a rule.
And I agree, that it's completely stupid! You don't need to be a spellcaster to take craft (baking) or craft (leatherworking), so why alchemy? I think it's the most stupid rule I've ever seen in D&D, and we all know that this game has a lot of really stupid rules. Also, it doesn't define what a spellcaster is.Wizard with Int 9? Bard1 without any bonus spells? First level ranger?
I'm pretty sure all alchemists I've ever seen where Experts.
I can't imagine why any gm would not houserule that away. IF they were even aware such a restriction exists.

But I have another problem:
Could it be, that making items with alchemy takes a damn long time?
The cheapest poison costs 90 gp. That's 900 sp and I'd say a DC of 20.
A 2nd level expert with Int 14, 5 Ranks in craft (alchemy), and Skill Focus (alchemy) gets a +10 to the craft check, so let's say he takes 10 and gets a 20.

20 x 20 is 400. So you need a second week for 800. And one fourth of a third week to get to 900.

That is sixteen days of work for one single dose of an extremely weak poison. One does is for a single attack. And you can't do greater amounts of it at the same time. If you want to make two doses, it takes twice as long.

What character would ever create his own poisons?

A ranger with some bowmaking training would need 4 weeks to make a simple longbow.

I think the system is really flawed. Even when it's days intead of weeks, that's still rediculously long. Does anyone know about alternate systems to make the craft skill calculations?

Look at the spell Fabricate. A level 15 wizard can turn out 10 does of the most difficult to make poison (before bonus spells from high Int). Now take a poison worth 1,500 GP per dose. The wizard turns out 10 dose's in a miniute for a net profit of 10,000 GP. But let's say that he sells to a shop (instead of directly to the end user) so he only gets to sell the poison for 2/3's it's market price. That's 5,000 GP. Figure that most high level wizards with a bit of down time turn out said items.

And by a more realistic measure, 10 does of Lotus extract is probable at least a months supply for a single shop.

Zherog
2009-03-09, 11:57 AM
I've never heard about that before, and had to look it up to make sure there really is such a rule.
And I agree, that it's completely stupid! You don't need to be a spellcaster to take craft (baking) or craft (leatherworking), so why alchemy?

I can't say for certain, but my best guess is that it's a "legacy" thing from 3.0. In 3.0, Alchemy was it's own skill for wizards and sorcerers. The skill was "exclusive" so nobody else could ever take ranks in it (experts could, of course, add it as one of their class skills). During the conversion, they rightfully made the skill just another subset of Craft - that's what it really should've been all along. But they decided to try and keep the skill "exclusive" by limiting access to only spellcasters.

So, they got it half-right in the conversion.

Telonius
2009-03-09, 12:20 PM
But I have another problem:
Could it be, that making items with alchemy takes a damn long time?
The cheapest poison costs 90 gp. That's 900 sp and I'd say a DC of 20.
A 2nd level expert with Int 14, 5 Ranks in craft (alchemy), and Skill Focus (alchemy) gets a +10 to the craft check, so let's say he takes 10 and gets a 20.

20 x 20 is 400. So you need a second week for 800. And one fourth of a third week to get to 900.

That is sixteen days of work for one single dose of an extremely weak poison. One does is for a single attack. And you can't do greater amounts of it at the same time. If you want to make two doses, it takes twice as long.

What character would ever create his own poisons?

I agree. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89314) :smallbiggrin:

Leon
2009-03-09, 12:41 PM
2 Words: Combat Alchemist


(Found in No Quarter 22)

Animefunkmaster
2009-03-09, 01:44 PM
I am going to use the tanglefoot bag in srd as an example (I canít find the check for ever-burning torch and its expensive and not as useful), its gold cost is 50gp and has a dc 25.

Letís use a level 2 gnome expert (he has got gp to spend on crafting). 14 int, 5 ranks in craft alchemy and 5 ranks in appraise. He has an alchemist lab and Skill focus Craft Alchemy.
His check is:
5 ranks
2 int
2 synergy
2 circumstance
2 racial
3 skill focus
-----------------
+16

Check is a 25, lets assume he roles a 10. So he completes 25 X 26 silver piecesÖ 650. He makes it in the week.

At level 2 you can hardly do much (and you donít have the gp to buy any sort of items worth while). Itís unlikely you can craft masterwork items at this level (again, gp). Comparing a level 2 expertís craft ability to a level 15 wizard is foolish to begin with. Crafting isnít that bad, albeit it does have a toll on your time. But the epic crafting rules are in place to help you speed up the process (Add 10 to the dc to speed up the time). With the above gnome, you can make acid in 2 days and alchemist fire in 4 days, itís not perfect, but your level 2.

One note: if your going to take away the spellcasting requirement you really need to make it possible to get this as a class skill. Otherwise it isn't going to be worth it.