PDA

View Full Version : Mana Baybee [Magic]



DMgrinder
2006-08-31, 12:37 AM
I, and my friends are dissatisfied with the current spell slot idea. We want mana baybee.
I want a system where casters can blast all day, but slow down to a crawl when they have to recharge.

Heres what I have so far:

Your mama pool is tapped to cast spells

A spell costs mana points equal to its level

To learn your daily mana pool, take the ammount of spells in a slot and multiply it by its level. Repeat for all spell levels. i.e. 3 level 2 spells equals 6 daily mana points.


Some questions about some troublesome areas are: How should I change spell preparation, and how should mana recharge? I was thinking about having it be equal to your int/wis/cha bonus per level, but that seemed too much. Something that seems about right is your int/wis/cha score per minute. this does nothing rerally for combat though and makes for odd numbers, so maybe it should just be 1 per round and you can take a feat to raise it.

Ideas, comments, help?

kingofthemorning
2006-08-31, 12:55 AM
It's an interesting idea, but the spell slot system is there so that the battles don't end so quickly and one-sided cause the spellcaster used up all his destructive spells in a row. With the current system a spellcaster thinks twice before using a powerful spell.

Though I think you could use the system with the recovery as eight hours of rest. It could allow the spellcasters to cast many lower level spells, intead of saving up that one big boomer for a climatic battle that never comes.

Winged One
2006-08-31, 12:58 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

DMgrinder
2006-08-31, 01:25 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

Ya, I really have to check the SRD more before I talk.


I don't like how they gimped fireball, though. Could I just dump that?


Also, I really want a way to regenerate mana. Any ideas?

Lucky
2006-08-31, 01:58 AM
Also, I really want a way to regenerate mana. Any ideas?

Play Magic cards?

Though honestly, you'll have to cut slots to allow them to recharge, otherwise it's just another thing thrown in to boost magic again, and magic does not need a boost.

I also despise that variant, they did make an entire psionic system for a reason, making the magic system like it just seems stupid.

Winged One
2006-08-31, 02:39 AM
Ya, I really have to check the SRD more before I talk.


I don't like how they gimped fireball, though. Could I just dump that?


Also, I really want a way to regenerate mana. Any ideas?
It's your game. And as for regeneration, you may want to take a cue from Cognizance Crystals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm).

Hario
2006-08-31, 03:15 AM
Use constitution, for every +1 modifier they recover 1 point of mana for every 5 minutes of 'sitting down' a - con score does not reduce your amounts gained, but for every point of negative con score the time to earn one doubles -1 con score 10 minutes, -2 20 minutes... and so on.. sound good?

NullAshton
2006-08-31, 07:55 AM
Damage spells being lowest caster level is for balance reasons, I think. So that 20d6 damage takes about an even amount of spellpoints to do, regardless of spell level.

LordOfNarf
2006-08-31, 12:08 PM
It's your game. And as for regeneration, you may want to take a cue from Cognizance Crystals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm).

CC's don't let you recharge, all the PP or MP for a spell/power has to come from a single source.

DMgrinder
2006-08-31, 12:54 PM
I also despise that variant, they did make an entire psionic system for a reason, making the magic system like it just seems stupid.

So if one system of casting has a better sytem, the other people who use the other casting system are just suposed to keep on using the more confusing and limiting system?


Also, for you saying that mages need to be kneehacked: they don't. The only reason mages seem to be overpowered is that their weaknesses are overcome by the burly fghter sitting in front of them soaking the hits.

Also, a mage seems to have a certain number of rounds to blast the enemy, then they're down to sitting and waiting.

As is: BLAST, BLAST Blast blast blast...I'm done.
As I want it: BLAST, BLAST, Blast, blast...recharge, blast, recharge, blast.

I'm thinking a full-round action with a consentration/spellcraft/whatever check to restore your int bonus worth of mana points.


Also, with my system, you can easily convert any caster to the point system. With the SRD, you have to guess at things like the beguiler, or duskblade.

Hario
2006-08-31, 01:07 PM
but if you allow intelligence be the stat that recharges, it gimps sorcerers/bards horribly....

Constitution fits, and most Spellcasters don't have insane constitution unless they fudged their rolls for stats.

The check would probably be a UMD with a certain item that allows them to regen, I wouldn't allow it personally otherwise... I wouldn't suggest making it easier for the wizard to refresh his spells without giving them lesser points than they normally would have...

ExHunterEmerald
2006-08-31, 01:12 PM
So use the relevant magic stat.
CHA, WIS, INT, etc.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-08-31, 01:26 PM
Hmm...

I came up with a system that would assume that you're throwing out all conventional magic in D&D. Let's see...

There's a bunch of feats that grant spell effects. Each time you take a feat, you got an effect and one spell point. All spell effects are augmentable (as per psionics, 1 SP = 1d6 damage, and so on). Recharging all your spell points is a 1 round action.

Simple and still fairly balanced, right? It also means the DM doesn't need to keep track of as many spells. Baiscally, you can pull off large amounts of damage, but not very often, in comparison to melee types making full attacks all the time.

Athanatos
2006-08-31, 01:41 PM
So if one system of casting has a better sytem, the other people who use the other casting system are just suposed to keep on using the more confusing and limiting system?

Get this: Some people prefer the slotted system. You prefer psionics? Gee, play psionics.


Also, for you saying that mages need to be kneehacked: they don't. The only reason mages seem to be overpowered is that their weaknesses are overcome by the burly fghter sitting in front of them soaking the hits.

At low levels, sure. Higher up, a mage has enough protection magic to make a fighter look like a rag doll.


Also, a mage seems to have a certain number of rounds to blast the enemy, then they're down to sitting and waiting.

As is: BLAST, BLAST Blast blast blast...I'm done.
As I want it: BLAST, BLAST, Blast, blast...recharge, blast, recharge, blast.

Mages don't need encouragement to be reckless "I drop 20d6 damage on everybody, every round" types. Requiring them to occasionally be conservative with their magic makes playing them... I dunno, tactical and balanced, I guess. It's no fun to be a fighter meatshield if your mage buddy is upstaging you every round, even when you roll four natural twenties.


I'm thinking a full-round action with a consentration/spellcraft/whatever check to restore your int bonus worth of mana points.

That's hardly a crawl. Take a mage who starts out at 17 int. He can recharge 3 points per round, meaning he can throw down three magic missiles every four rounds.

Let's look at him again at level 5. He's now got 20 int (thanks to a point spent at level 4 and a +2 item). Even when he's supposedly "depleted", and "slowed down to a crawl", he can manage a fireball and two magic missiles every four rounds.

Now he's level 12, with 24 int (two more points and a +4 item). Regcharging one round lets him throw down two fireballs and still have a point left to build his stores back up.

Ah, and now he's at level 20, with an impressive 28 int. He might as well just cast a pair of Quickened Magic Missiles every round that he's not recharging. Effectively, he's throwing down a modest 17.5 damage every round, never having to pause, and slowly recharging his pool. Or, he could just settle for a Horrid Wilting every other round and slowly recharge.

By your system, even if a mage is as reckless and spell-flingy as possible, he's never really going to run out of energy or be crippled at all. What's more, he can just recharge his mana stores after every battle, encouraging him to open up every combat by flinging around his most powerful magic.


Also, with my system, you can easily convert any caster to the point system. With the SRD, you have to guess at things like the beguiler, or duskblade.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

In all, I think such an idea is overpowered. Maybe using Con bonus instead of Int/Cha will work better, as Hario suggested.

NullAshton
2006-08-31, 02:40 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm

Try that variant. After casting a spell, it takes a while to recharge to cast another spell. Sorcerers cast higher level combat spells every 1d4+1 rounds, wizards 1d6+1 rounds. It also has the side effect of making casters a lot weaker when there's only going to be one encounter a day.

DMgrinder
2006-08-31, 06:43 PM
Let's see if I can sort through this big open expanse of negativity.




Get this: Some people prefer the slotted system. You prefer psionics? Gee, play psionics.
I never said I prefered psionics, I said that they have a better system. They are no where near the same. A sorcerer is not a wizard just because they use the same casting system, and just because I like the spellpoint system does not mean I like psionics.

At low levels, sure. Higher up, a mage has enough protection magic to make a fighter look like a rag doll.
And those all take time to cast, while the fighter is full attacking him.

Mages don't need encouragement to be reckless "I drop 20d6 damage on everybody, every round" types. Requiring them to occasionally be conservative with their magic makes playing them... I dunno, tactical and balanced, I guess. It's no fun to be a fighter meatshield if your mage buddy is upstaging you every round, even when you roll four natural twenties.
Okay, to add dice over minimum to a spell, you need to expend extra mana. I see no problem with that now.

That's hardly a crawl. Take a mage who starts out at 17 int. He can recharge 3 points per round, meaning he can throw down three magic missiles every four rounds.
Let's look at him again at level 5. He's now got 20 int (thanks to a point spent at level 4 and a +2 item). Even when he's supposedly "depleted", and "slowed down to a crawl", he can manage a fireball and two magic missiles every four rounds.
Now he's level 12, with 24 int (two more points and a +4 item). Regcharging one round lets him throw down two fireballs and still have a point left to build his stores back up.
Ah, and now he's at level 20, with an impressive 28 int. He might as well just cast a pair of Quickened Magic Missiles every round that he's not recharging. Effectively, he's throwing down a modest 17.5 damage every round, never having to pause, and slowly recharging his pool. Or, he could just settle for a Horrid Wilting every other round and slowly recharge.
By your system, even if a mage is as reckless and spell-flingy as possible, he's never really going to run out of energy or be crippled at all. What's more, he can just recharge his mana stores after every battle, encouraging him to open up every combat by flinging around his most powerful magic.
I see your point on that. In hindsight, recharging mana is a bad idea.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.
I mean, that my system can easily interpret any spell casters spell casting abilities, not just the ones on the list in the srd.
In all, I think such an idea is overpowered. Maybe using Con bonus instead of Int/Cha will work better, as Hario suggested.

Hario
2006-08-31, 08:22 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm

Try that variant. After casting a spell, it takes a while to recharge to cast another spell. Sorcerers cast higher level combat spells every 1d4+1 rounds, wizards 1d6+1 rounds. It also has the side effect of making casters a lot weaker when there's only going to be one encounter a day.
They are weaker, but they will survive the long run, a timestop is near godlike, and will bypass this even then, and honestly the way it should be for that is 1d6+1 for sorcerers and 1d8+1, They won't be able to cast that often, but they will still have spells... and be able to use them still affectively... You could get rid of Quickend magic altogether too..

Lucky
2006-09-01, 12:58 AM
And those all take time to cast, while the fighter is full attacking him.

No... Just no...

Fly... Greater Invisibilty... Grease... Solid Fog... Quickened Dimension Door... Teleport the heck outta if you need to. The fighter should never be able to reach a wizard.

Anyways...

NullAshton
2006-09-01, 03:44 PM
Steal the power point system. 0 level spells take a single mana point, and all the others take level times two minus one mana points. Then steal power points from psionics, replacing power points with mana points. Volia!

Metamagic increases the mana cost per the level increase. So does heighten. Anything that burns off spell slots instead burns off the equavalent amount of mana points. Mana points regenerate by the characters primary casting stat each hour, which cannot exceed half of your mana point reserve. Do the same for psionics if you want. Finnally, if you do not get 8 hours of uninterrupted rest in a 24 hour period, you cannot regenerate any more mana until you rest. Sorcerers and other spontanous casters have twice the reserve and regeneration of prepared casters. 'Half' casters, like bards, rangers, and paladins, get half the reserve and regeneration of prepared casters.

Spell preperation goes like this. After you rest for an 8 hour period, wizards and other prepared casters 'forget' all their spells in the morning. This must be prepared by an hour of studying in the morning. They can leave some spells blank. Once they prepare spells in the morning, they can use all that they know throughout the day. The spells that they can prepare in the morning is equal to the number of spells per day that they usually get. They do not get to prepare any more spells in the morning from high attributes.

In order to apply metamagic, wizards still have to prepare a metamagic spell in their daily preparation. Sorcerers still take a full round action to apply metamagic to a spell. Spontanous casters may apply metamagic to a spell by doubling the metamagic cost and they do not get an increased casting time if they do this. Sorcerers(And other spontanous casters) may apply metamagic costs regually like wizards, however it takes more time to cast.

Any prestige class that permanently removes one of your spell level slots, for example Archmage, instead permanently reduces your mana reserve by a certain amount. For example, an Archmage with Arcane Fire would have his/her mana reserve permanently reduced by 17 points.

Counterspelling, instead of requiring the same spell or a spell higher with Improved Turning, instead takes twice the mana points that it takes to cast the base spell. With improved turning, this is reduced to the same number of mana points. A spellcaster can counterspell a spell turned back on him as an immediate action that takes half the mana points of the base spell, rounded up.

When a wizard specializes in a school, the extra spell slots gained instead become extra schools he/she can prepare.

This has been one of my first attempts at completely revising a certain game mechanic. What do you think?

NullAshton
2006-09-01, 03:46 PM
No... Just no...

Fly... Greater Invisibilty... Grease... Solid Fog... Quickened Dimension Door... Teleport the heck outta if you need to. The fighter should never be able to reach a wizard.

Anyways...

The fighter simply needs to win initiative. Or jump over grease. Or simply go around the grease. Or freedom of movement ring.

Then it's grapple and pinning time!

lsfreak
2006-09-01, 06:59 PM
I'd say your best bet would be the magic recharge, or do what I'm ever-so-slowly doing... create your own mana system (played too many computer RPG's >.> ). I've yet to work out any details (the numbers are all pulled from nothing), so this is just some rough examples of what I have in mind, to give you some ideas.

Each spell has it's own mana cost, not ranked entirely by caster level or somesuch. Heavy blasting spells and blatently powerful spells have much high mana costs than equally-leveled general utility spells. You can boost spells power, akin to spending more points in psionics to boost the power.
I'm not sure how spells are learned yet, but it's not like DnD. You can learn any spell at any time, if you have the time, money, connections, and skill.
Leveled spells no longer exist (wanna unleash 10d6 Disintegrate at level 2? You can, but no spells for quite some time...)
You recharge mana very slowly while active, a bit faster while resting (for example, 1 point every half-hour while active, 2 while calm, 4 while sleeping, scaled with level and ability somehow, with a spell such as Disintegration probably costing around, say 40 points to cast). There would be a limit, reached after a few days (rather than DnD's typical 8-hour day, 8-hour rest).
If you cast too many points in a row, it's not good for you (slowly go from feeling slightly uneasy to painfully unconcious, depending on how much mana you deplete and how fast). In the case of 10d6 Disintegrate at level 2, they're probably going to need to made a DC 35+ Will save or so to keep from falling immediately unconcieous, and in that case they're probably also going to take a temporary Int penalty from the strain. This keeps casters from simply Meteor Swarming enemy castles after a few day's full rest.

That's just the basics of what I'm working on for you, hope it gave you a few ideas :D

DMgrinder
2006-09-01, 11:28 PM
Okay, I'm over the mana recharge bit (decided to go without it) and need your help on something else now.

I'm about ready to go and use the SRD point system, because it gives more casting at lower levels(where mages suck) and less at higher levels(where mages bath in pwnage). their system balances mages a bit. Unlike mine, their system is just set amounts of spell points per level, and I can't really see a pattern that can use to craft spell points for new classes like beguiler.

Can one of you math wiz' crack the code? there's a cookie waiting.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-09-01, 11:41 PM
He might as well just cast a pair of Quickened Magic Missiles every round that he's not recharging.

Athanatos, this is impossible. casting a quickened spell is a swift action, and you only get one per round.

Fizban
2006-09-02, 02:05 AM
The SRD's spell points up until around levlel 10-12 are simply the cost of all your spells/day added up. Once you hit lv 10-12, they start arbitrarily taking away points from what your total should be, and then there's the fact that wizards get the same points as cleric/druids (who have more spells per day than wizards).
Try this (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_spell_points_page.htm).
He didnt like the SRD's spell points, so he totaled up everything himself the way it should have been. Then all you have to do is add the vitalizing variant for spell points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitalizing), and add a clause that says you can't remove the fatigue/exaustion/damage magically and you're good to go.

Athanatos
2006-09-02, 11:44 AM
Athanatos, this is impossible. casting a quickened spell is a swift action, and you only get one per round.

My bad. Make it a quickened and a regular, and have him regenerate even faster.

NullAshton
2006-09-02, 01:42 PM
I made an entire variant, and noone is going to even look at it? Meh.

DMgrinder
2006-09-02, 03:11 PM
I made an entire variant, and noone is going to even look at it? Meh.

Explain.

Matthew
2006-09-02, 06:29 PM
I think he means the above post; I looked at it.

DMgrinder; I think the Spell Point idea you have in mind is likely to make Spell Casters even more powerful than they already are and it seems needlessly complicated to me.

Managing Spell Points, their recovery and how their interplay with Spell Casting will greatly affect the overall power of any Spell Caster.

However, if you are going to use this kind of system, the recovery rate probably should not be related to Ability Scores or Ability Point Bonuses, as this creates too much dependence on them and variance between Casters. Spell Recovery Time should be directly linked to Maximum Spell Points.

i.e.

If a Character has 10 Spell Points, he should gain 1 every 2.4 Hours. If a Character has 20 Spell Points he should gain 1 every 1.2 Hours and so on...